The only requirement for A.A. membership

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

The only requirement for A.A. membership

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Is a desire to stop drinking.

So I picked up a sponcee about 4 months ago. Vietnam vet in his mid 60's, divorced, lonely and feeling somewhat separated from his family due to circumstances. He really jumped into the steps, service work, seems to love the group and program, and was about to do his 5th step a couple weeks ago.

He is still showing up early to set up and make coffee, coming to meetings, but his behavoir has changed slightly in the last couple meetings and when I get close I can smell the booze.

The whole thing got my head swirling a bit. Do I call him out? When? Don't want the run him off either. I think about our membership reqiurement, but I like to think I hold my sponcee's to a higher standard :). Yes, need get my ego out of the way.

I think of Dr Bob's "what would the master do?

Of course I think of page 86 "Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while." (They always do)

Yes, I think after years in recovery we become prepared for such moments.

Thoughts?

Experiences?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Q wrote:
That's a great share Pappy, thank you! It reminds us that where there is still life, there is ALWAYS hope! A mistake doesn't make you exempt from the promises offered by the program. All you need to do is get back on the horse and ride - go back to meetings, get honest, practice the steps.

You got it Q ... also, I forgot to mention that the sponsee that called me and denied he was drinking, never recalled ever calling me ... typical 'blackout' ... I was thrilled he made it back so soon and he may not know it, but he helped me tremendously in staying in my own recovery program ... 'blackouts' got to be very common place for me, and scared the crap out of me ... the whole ordeal was a great reminder!!!

Ya know? ... I don't think I ever thanked him for that ... I must make a note to self to do so ...

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Friday 26th of July 2013 07:04:37 AM

Angell · Senior Member

The words will change depending on the person but whatever the words may be, let them come from a place of love.

If I relapsed I expect that I would feel a tremendous amount of shame, guilt, and self-loathing. I suspect that I would also be feeling defensive, angry, and frightened. The last person who came and told me that they relapsed was greeted by a hug and understanding. Without judgment, they were free to let go of their defensiveness and anger. They cried as I held them. Then I joined them because it's hard to watch someone you care about in so much pain. They have been clean and sober from that day forward.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

If he is drinking, it is to overcome a craving which is beyond his ability to control. The spiritual malady has returned and at the present time he has no defence. He hasn't completed his house keeping. Perhaps he took too long about it and the window of opportunity closed.

However in my experience, an alcoholic can still hear the message even when drunk. They can be given hope even when drunk, and even while in the grip of the illness, they can still know they need help. So love and tolerance is our code. This is a sick man, if we are kind to him and do not drive him away, he may yet find another period of grace in which we can help him. But if we are intolerant, he will know that too.

God bless,
MikeH.

Senior Member

A lot of folks relapse - sometimes I think it's just part of the process. I had one sponsee that went back out, left meetings, didn't return calls. Then a few months later he's back, has a different sponsor, is doing well. You can't take those things personally - people aren't done drinking until they're done drinking. Even the BB recommends trying some controlled drinking if you're not convinced you're an alcoholic.

In my opinion, if he's picked up again, he's not ready for step 5. He needs to return to step 1, and if he needs to drink some more to fully realize he's powerless over alcohol, then so be it. Sometimes it's the only way.

Senior Member

That's a great share Pappy, thank you! It reminds us that where there is still life, there is ALWAYS hope! A mistake doesn't make you exempt from the promises offered by the program. All you need to do is get back on the horse and ride - go back to meetings, get honest, practice the steps.

Senior Member

It's a miracle in itself that some people go back out and make it back in. We've got plenty of stories in my home group of people that went out...and died.

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

As some of you know, I began sponsoring at the tender age of 6 months old.

ON FIRE about the program having just one day prior completed - quote unquote - my steps.

She heard it all LOLOLOLOL!

Good thing she was still drinking... it's probably a good thing she doesn't really remember many of our first chats together hehe. No no - not a good thing, but yes God's timing was perfect.

She relapsed and relapsed and relapsed... basically never stopped drinking. WHAT A LESSON IN HUMILITY FOR ME WHO COULD SAVE THE WORLD!!! Right off the bat - God knew I needed that one early.

She continued to drink until about 3 months ago. So I'd been sponsoring her a LOOOONG time while drinking. 9 or 10 months I guess. It felt like a long time considering my own age in the program. She always kept coming back to me - even when I thought she should find a new sponsor. I suppose it was because I never held anything against her, and like Angell said - loving arms. I never chased her down. I would call here and there when I hadn't heard from her for a long while. I knew she was in really bad shape though, and just prayed she survived it mostly. All the drunk calls, all the lies... I got to see me with sober eyes. Me memememe. I learned so much.

Then I got to see her get sober for real - and totally change. God's grace finally came. She worked through step 4 and 5 finally - and is on step 8 now. We had to take a little break for the last 3 weeks because of my own personal tragedy and needing to spend time at home. But - I handed her over to the care of my sponsor. Now I'm back - and ready to continue - and I can't wait to see what's next in this fascinating adventure that God has laid out for us.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Q wrote:
It's a miracle in itself that some people go back out and make it back in. We've got plenty of stories in my home group of people that went out...and died.

Same here ... we had a girl (late twenties), a couple weeks ago, that was brought in to a meeting by her sponsor ... she smelled of alcohol ... she wanted the meeting topic to be on personal relationships ... she explained her troubles with her husband ... The chairlady asked her, have you been drinking today?, to which she replied 'yes' ... then the chairlady told her that this would be a good time for her to be quiet and just listen ...

It seemed crude in a way, but we couldn't let an active drinker control the meeting ... AND ... this was not the place to air personal problems NOT associated with alcohol use and abuse ... unfortunately, the girl hasn't returned ...

We've had a few this past year that have died due to staying in the disease!

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Thank you so much for your share Tasha, ... ... ... a great lesson in patience ...

I wish I had matured in AA as fast as you have, at an early AA age, LOL .... you're what? ... 2 going on 20 ??? (reminds me of my granddaughter at 13 going on 20, LOL)

Senior Member

That's another great share, Tasha! Thank you!

Here's a little known fact: the person that Bill Wilson mentions in "Bill's Story" - the one that came to him with the message of sobriety from the Oxford Group, was Ebby Thatcher. Ebby was a chronic relapser his entire life. Yet Bill Wilson always considered Ebby to be his sponsor, and never gave up on him. If that's the example set by the founder of our society, who are WE to judge someone else's journey?

Bill understood that it didn't matter what Ebby did - he understood one of the fundamental realities of the program: that we need to give away that which was freely given to us, if WE want to stay sober.

I once had a potential sponsee ask me what my track record with sponsorship was, and I said, "It's 100% perfect: I'm still sober!"

emmi331 · Veteran Member

Q wrote:
That's another great share, Tasha! Thank you!

Here's a little known fact: the person that Bill Wilson mentions in "Bill's Story" - the one that came to him with the message of sobriety from the Oxford Group, was Ebby Thatcher. Ebby was a chronic relapser his entire life. Yet Bill Wilson always considered Ebby to be his sponsor, and never gave up on him. If that's the example set by the founder of our society, who are WE to judge someone else's journey?

Bill understood that it didn't matter what Ebby did - he understood one of the fundamental realities of the program: that we need to give away that which was freely given to us, if WE want to stay sober.

I once had a potential sponsee ask me what my track record with sponsorship was, and I said, "It's 100% perfect: I'm still sober!"

Thank you so much for this post, Q. For some reason I had forgotten about Ebby sponsoring Bill W., and this was a great reminder of one of the most powerful aspects of our program. And I'm going to remember your comment about your own sponsorship record - thumbs up! wink

Pablomoses · Senior Member

Great posts...that's why we come here to MIP!!
Thanks everyone.......
My brother relapsed after ten years sobriety. His own shame, guilt and anger kept him from going back into the AA rooms. I don't know if he ever discussed this with his sponsor?!
He died in a car crash after 3 months of relapsing.

There was a brief time where I blamed the "AA Nazis" at his home group. I figured he could not humble himself and go to them and take the white chip again. Because they did not open their arms up to him.
All of this mental torment got me no where. Working my program, praying to my HP on it, brought me to this conclusion. It's the point that was made by Q and seconded by Pappy. It is a miracle when people go back out and come back into the fellowship!! I feel relapses have a nature of their own determined by the individual doing the relapsing. A mystery I surely can't comprehend completely.

My brother wasn't the miracle. That 10 years of sobriety was the miracle. And all the good he accomplished in those 10 years. Maybe, his death also accomplished some good in reminding all of us about the death sentence that can be one drink ahead of us.....this is a deadly disease. I don't think this can ever be stressed enough!!

That's why we come here....we share, we read, we post, we fellowship!! We are all miracles in progress!!

-- Edited by Pablomoses on Friday 26th of July 2013 07:17:33 PM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Rob84 wrote:

Yes, I think after years in recovery we become prepared for such moments.
Thoughts?
Experiences?

"Man is supposed to think, and act. He wasn't made in God's image to be an automation.

"My own formula along this line runs as follows: First, think through every situation pro and con, praying meanwhile that I be not influenced by ego considerations. Affirm that I would like to do God's will.

"Then, having turned the problem over in this fashion and getting no conclusive or compelling answer, I wait for further guidance, which may come into mind directly or through other people or through circumstances.

"If I feel I can't wait, and still get no definite indication, I repeat the first measure several times, try to pick out the best course, and then proceed to act. I know if I am wrong, the heavens won't fall. A lesson will be learned, in any case."

Letter, 1950

Seeking Guidance, p. 55, As Bill Sees It

Senior Member

None of us can be reminded of that quote too often, Tanin. Good call!

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Tough one Rob. I think you answered your own question in the title of your post. There is a caring way to inquire about relapse without your sponsee thinking you are attacking or that you are gonna drop him if he comes clean. You wouldn't be staying true to our primary purpose if you acted like you didn't have concerns. My sponsee takes so many psych drugs and would tell me "This day sucks! I am taking my meds early and ending this day! " I really wrestled with this because I'm not a doctor, I have my own meds I have to take, and so on...BUT the way he was taking those meds to basically pass out and hit oblivion, that sounded the same to me as how I drank. I waited for an opportune time and in a tactful way to bring it up. He agreed. I didn't demand he pick up a white chip cuz he didn't ask and it didn't matter to me. Only that he heard my concern and knows it came from an honest caring place and its up to him to act on that insight how he sees fit.

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Hey Rob Blessings of this day!

I found that the writings in 'Working With Others "(BB)always helped me in working with sponsee's(I like pg 96 3rd edition 1st paragraph, though may seem harsh, very practical in reality. Heres a quip from Bill W and Lois"s interaction, went like this... ..............Bill W was bating zero for some time with those he sponsored. When he brought this to Lois attention, she said you have kept someone sober....yourself. We cannot get anyone drunk of sober. To feel we can is our ego or maybe hurt pride. We carry the message and leave the results to our Higher Power. Sponsoring for us is about us staying sober. If WE keep it simple, and do not play counsel, try to reinvent the wheel, its going to work or not but not because of us.

When sponsees of mine started using again I let them know that I am their sponsor until they say i'm not but I can't help them while they continue to use.(drink)(I have suggested to let me know when they are done)..I discuss all this before we form that relationship so WE are on the same mindset from the start. I do not abandon them but allow them to decide if they want to do whatever it takes to work toward recovery, a day at a time(my stuff sponsorship is different for all)I also have suggested WE attend some tradition meetings together if there was an opportunity to take a deeper look into application of "our 3rd Tradition...........From 12 Step Sponsorship How it Works 'the writings remind us whether or not to drink/use any drugs(alcohol is a drug)or engage in any compulsive behavior is a decision WE alone can make. No one can keep us sober(in sobriety)not a friend, boss, family member, police(except while chained) and not a sponsor....WE say we don't take credit when sponsees stay sober and don't take blame when they drink" The decision to stay in recovery is always the individuals alone(OURS ALONE). One day at a time, help from the program(application in our lives and actions)and above all our relationship with our Higher Power and the 12 Step fellowship gives us the power of choice. As we work the process and seek to improve that conscious contact I truly believe more will be revealed....I always suggest to Pray Hard (in the way each of us does)trust in our guidance from our Higher Power and continue to be the guide by LIVING the program and walking as the Visions of HOPE, relating through our actions and behaviors set by God and the application of our spiritual principles in all areas of our lives, that the Program does work(not a magic bullet, takes effort daily) and that our Joy in living free from active addiction is an attraction to those who still suffer(though they still may not have gotten there yet)Have a blessed and productive day, ,thanks for the help today.. My thoughts......... smile

RubyTues · MIP Old Timer

I don't have anything to add, but this has been a great topic, really interesting.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Pythonpappy wrote:
Hey Rob, ... (we need to try and grab lunch together again sometime soon)(my treat this time ... LOL) ...

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Friday 26th of July 2013 06:39:45 AM

Would love to again you again, especially for a free lunch! Keep me in mind on the way to or from Tenn, the traffic has been light lately :)

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Thanks to all, so many thoughtful responses and insight on the topic.

Like Mike F, I have a pretty detailed chat with sponcees regarding the relationship. The thing throwing me off is that he is continuing his service work and coming to meetings, always seems like people go "stealth" once they start drinking at least in most of my experience. Like Mike/Flynn said, the message can still resonate with those under the influence.

Called him today and supposed to see him tonight

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Rob, ...

I've made a lot of trips recently ... all is quiet now ... I'll PM you when the next trip comes around ...

Robbie0330 · Veteran Member

I dont know. my AAA membership costs me 65 dollers a year. and they will only unlock my car up to 3 times. cheaps fuckers.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Robbie, ... If that's the only reason you pay them $65 a year, then I suggest you try to change yourself (your habits) to keep from locking your keys in your vehicle ... then you could save $65 a year ... maybe buy an extra key with a 'hide-a-box' magnetic thingy ... LOL ... You're funny!!!