I have an atheist with long term sobriety that is a member of my home group as well and I swear you wrote this post about him. I asked him once if he had a spirit. He said yes. I asked if his time here on earth was a spiritual journey. He said yes. So color me confused about the actual word "atheist". I silently bless him when he speaks and am glad he found the rooms. I can't help but twinge a bit inside when someone denies a Power that I feel is so very real though. It's moved from annoyance to sadness though. I get such massive joy from my relationship with God. I guess I just want everyone to have that same feeling.
-- Edited by vixen on Monday 24th of June 2013 11:32:06 PM
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I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
I went to one of my regular meetings and the topic brought up was having to do with God and our HP. Most people did not "censor" and state HP instead of "God" when sharing or did not say "My HP that I chose to call God." Of course there is one atheist in the bunch who does have like 27 years sobriety or something but I am losing respect a bit just from the canned shares every time this comes up about how the "God talk is preachy" and makes him "very uncomfortable" and how it's not really miracles caused by God when your life naturally gets better after you stop destructive drinking patterns and how it's only rational...blah blah blah. I am not born again religious but sobriety has made me born again in most ways. I used to be agnostic but am so glad I got desperate enough not to care what other people's beliefs are and I became open to believing that maybe there was something to developing a little faith. When I hear what would seem to be religious people in AA, I try and listen to what their faith is doing for them that is good. I don't get bothered by their faith. The point is to understand and identify with how faith and surrender work right? Some folks appear to get so stuck on nonconformity that it really limits their program.
Of course I'm not perfect at all and there are things that annoy me in meetings (almost always related to crap going on with me or my own defects. I am just glad that being annoyed by folks talking about "God" is no longer one of my issues. I can't imagine having that issue in AA for 27 years...or in this case going around thinking everyone else has issues in AA for 27 years. Of course I realize that getting annoyed with the atheist is also still getting annoyed and I guess that's the work in progress thing for me.
I can respect the notion of being atheist...fine. But after 27 years in AA, should your immediate response to every meeting where the word "God" comes up be how uncomfortable you by others' shares coupled with a lecture about how AA allows for your atheism and belief in spiritual principles rather than God...I get it already. I got it the first 342352323909080 times.
Before AA, I always had more problems with fundamentalists (largely from being raised in a liberal family and also being gay and having fundamentalists tell me I was gonna burn in hell for something I could never change about myself no matter how much I tried). I now realize that narrow mindedness would be at the root on both extreme ends of that "God" thing. It would seem equality presumptive to say there is no God as it is to say you know exactly what God is and thinks and what God wants for me and others in every circumstance. If I say there is no God, I'm not gonna listen to you right? If I say I know all about God already, then I am also not gonna listen to you probably. I'm open to hearing how your faith works for you though because it can help me change my busted default alcoholic thinking. For that, I am grateful.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Well, just remember that he's also a sick and suffering alcoholic, despite his many years of sobriety. I've met guys with over 30 years of sobriety that seemed to have much worse problems than affirming their atheism like a broken record. One was a sexual predator and got his ass kicked out of a dozen meetings. AA has never been a bastion of mental health.
But I always wonder what somebody means when they use the word "atheist." Are they objecting to a particular theistic concept of God? Because I've gone to so-called atheist AA meetings, and those folks just had a pagan conception of a Higher Power. I wouldn't have called them atheists at all, but I didn't say anything because they seemed so attached to the word.
My wife calls herself an atheist, but she has an unwavering faith in the moral principles of honesty, integrity, etc. To me, those things are an aspect of God, so I don't see that we have any real argument - we just like using different words.
A lot of Buddhists would consider themselves atheists as well, not because they don't believe in a particular conception of God, but because they claim God cannot be understood in any substantive way. The Four Noble Truths and Eightfold path say nothing of God at all - they're a framework of ethics. Neither did Buddha claim to be a god.
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The sway of alcohol over mankind is unquestionably due to its power to stimulate the mystical faculties of human nature, usually crushed to earth by the cold facts and dry criticisms of the sober hour. ---William James
At any rate, the 12 Steps affer a clear cut method for dealing with resentment, if in fact that's what you're feeling toward this individual: admit the resentment to yourself, God, and another human being, be ready to have God remove the shortcoming, and ask Him humbly to do so.
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The sway of alcohol over mankind is unquestionably due to its power to stimulate the mystical faculties of human nature, usually crushed to earth by the cold facts and dry criticisms of the sober hour. ---William James
Great share....I remember one time after a homegroup anniversary celebration, my wife(and family attending) asked me why I always share about the God of your (my understanding instead of our professed faith beliefs as born again christians.) I explained to her that our program has a 2nd STEP that talks of "coming to believe THAT(not IN a Power greater than ourselves)and WE are free to choose that Power ,which based on my own evidence of almost 3 decades of recovery and though always the same God , the relationship has definitely changed through the years.WE learn that it is not WHO or WHAT this Power is but HOW it can help us in our daily recoveries.I share my faith beliefs with anyone whom I can(it is part of my journey in ministering that message) but not in meetings where there are many different concepts of a Higher Power and others seeking to find their own way.. Though the actual word God is referred to in 25% of our STEPS and the male gender(HIM)(HIS) is also referred 4 times I always refer to God as God in meetings.Others will learn more of your personal faith beliefs by the way you carry that message just like our message of the program.I am sure of one thing,our 2ND step reminds us that it is necessary if WE are going to achieve on going recovery,that it fills a void left by our 1st STEP that helps us with our powerlessness,uselessness and helplessness,that so many do pass over this STEP with a minimum of concern,only to find out that our next STEPS just don't work even when we admitted we needed help with our addiction problem many don't admit to the need for faith and sanity.Coming to believe is what restores us to sanity.WE certainly had no trouble admitting our addiction had become a destructive force in our lives and that belief in a Power greater than ourselves is a process ,not an event,even someone with already formed beliefs..Time free from active addiction doesn't equal recovery it is the daily application of our spiritual principles applied in all areas of our lives and seeking to be of maximum service to God and others that does and it takes daily work.Resentments,yes we are human and they certainly do pop up but with daily work,we see the exact nature of whats going on with us and adjust ,with God's grace accordingly..I have a 46 year old daughter who once told me that her brother always brow beat her with his christianity and when we talked I always shared with her about her own God of her understanding though she knows my personal faith beliefs. She told me it helps her when we talk and brings her closer to that Power that she has a relation with(she is also alcoholic and struggling with denial)It is like the message of our program WE can only carry the message of recovery and my own faith beliefs I also can only minister the Word and leave any convicting to the Spirit. I remember being in conflict as the Best man for my brothers wedding to his husband Mark and prayed for words I could share as a toast to their union..A story from my spiritual readings led me to this statement.... when Jesus was asked...Rabbi, What is the greatest commandment of all "it was said ,to love God with your whole heart ,mind and soul(body) and your neighbor as yourself"Kind of sounds like being of maximum service to God and others huh>>>Anyway folks can always go back to early history and read about the origin of "as we understand Him" and the religious history of the originators of our program or just work the STEPS with an honest,openminded willingness and more is always revealed.That Power,whatever it is that helps US is the catylist that moves us forward,day by day in our recoveries.Ongoing recovery is dependent on our relationship with a loving God THAT CARES FOR US(my beliefs) and will do for us what we find impossible to do for ourselves.It is easy to float back out the door on a cloud of religious zeal and forget that we suffer from an incurable disease..My life,to the best of my ability is guided by God and my faith beliefs,,application of spiritual principles in all areas of my life and the our primary purpose to be of that maximum service to God and others.Yes i fall short often but I am a MIRACLE IN PROGRESS and truly grateful,humbled and teachable(very difficult for this ole hardhead)Blessings of this day Mark,thanks for your help today,Some of what I shared is my stuff ,other is part of my own evidence of doing the daily work on my journey...
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
prolly wouldn't like it if someone like me spoke up and told him the problem is his and theres a great solution in the BB and if he doesn't like the talk, one of the great blessings of AA is hes free to leave at any time.
There is a statement in the BB or maybe it's in the 12 & 12, that says that once we've been there for a while "many began to talk of 'God'" ... I take this as, when we begin our 'spiritual journey', we start to open our minds of not only the possibility, but probability, that there is indeed, a God ... Too many unexplainable things begin to happen when we place our faith in the unseen ... Personally, I was agnostic coming into AA ... But as I stopped fighting anything or anyone, my mind began to transform and I saw things happen or occur that led me to a strong belief in God ... There are too many testimonies for me to list ... ... ...
I can share my experiences with the group and they are truthful in every respect, but it is up to the person to believe or not ... One phrase I always hated in the early days was "Fake it till you make it" ... I found the phrase "Act as if" much better ... So ... I acted as if there was a God in spirit watching over me, and did as my sponsor said, pray to God and thank Him for the day ... I said initially, that I wasn't going to do that, that I wasn't going to be a hypocrite ... He told me it made no difference, pray anyway, as if God were right there ... He said that God would handle our relationship, that I didn't have to worry about that ... so I did ... and things began to change, things happened, good things ... it was kind of like in the movie 'Star Wars' where 'The Force' was God ... the unseen POWER ...
I went through an abrupt 'awakening', unlike most ... But one of such magnitude that I will never forget it ... it cannot be anticipated, it just comes, or happens ... BAM, I suddenly came to know I was not alone ... I have now witnessed many miracles in and out of the rooms of AA ... So no one will ever convince me that there is no God ... cause I know Him personally ...
Love Y'all and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
It's because of those people who preach the 20 odd years that I am here. If they weren't there 'bit@@@in about all the God talk, I would have had nothing to cling to in the beginning... no hope that it could work for me too - since I felt I didn't believe in God.
Now - I see that God places them there for people like me who need them... and they have their own understanding that works for them, and get to be an example to the rest of us as to how far we GET TO come in our relationship with Him... how blessed we are. Freedom from self always lies in my choice to feel blessed or pissed. If I look deep enough, I can see Him in everything going on... just like you told me PC : )
I wouldn't dare cringe at people, or get annoyed with people and waste a perfectly good moment/opportunity to be a reflection and example of my HP to others. You just never know when someone might get curious and change their mind ; ) How attractive is irritation? I thought I would get divorced over my new found faith... but nope. Instead - my loving relationship with HP allowed me to tolerate, and therefor be parallel to those - even my husband - who felt no faith. Because of this acceptance and strong belief/respect that God had him where he was meant to be until he learned the lessons he needed to learn - he was able to discover his own HP at HP's time. Now, though we have differences, we can relate and build a loving relationship based on belief in our family... and that's the gift of allowing people to be where God needs them, not where we think we need/want them.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
This is a GREAT thread! Thanx for posting, Pinkchip! There are those who, bereft of spiritual experiences, come to a conclusion that the universe is devoid of divine sentience, but I do agree there is no reason for him to wear his doubt on his sleeve like that. The terms "blessings", "miracles", etc. can easily be mentally translated to "being susceptible to good happenstances that would have been impossible if practicing active alcoholism." In fact, the only "metaphysical" aspect of this program for me is a.a. meeting/activity/etc.=no drinking! When I was venting my foaming-at-the-mouth diatribes on this board many moons ago, at least I was NOT DRINKING! That, and that alone, is what keeps me coming back!
I can share my experiences with the group and they are truthful in every respect, but it is up to the person to believe or not ... One phrase I always hated in the early days was "Fake it till you make it" ... I found the phrase "Act as if" much better ... So ... I acted as if there was a God in spirit watching over me, and did as my sponsor said, pray to God and thank Him for the day ... I said initially, that I wasn't going to do that, that I wasn't going to be a hypocrite ... He told me it made no difference, pray anyway, as if God were right there ... He said that God would handle our relationship, that I didn't have to worry about that ... so I did ... and things began to change, things happened, good things ... it was kind of like in the movie 'Star Wars' where 'The Force' was God ... the unseen POWER ...
This mirrors my experience perfectly. When I was drinking, my life was such a horror show that I thought either God didn't exist, or if He did, he didn't care about me at all. When I entered the rooms of AA, I was put-off by all the God talk at first, but my sponsor said, "Just give the steps a try. You don't have to believe. Prove to yourself whether they work or not."
I was coming from the perspective, "I won't believe it unless I see it," and he was saying, "You won't see it UNTIL you believe it."
Remember the scene in Star Wars where Yoda lifts the ship out of the swamp with the force? Luke says, "I don't believe it!" And Yoda answers, "That is why you fail."
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The sway of alcohol over mankind is unquestionably due to its power to stimulate the mystical faculties of human nature, usually crushed to earth by the cold facts and dry criticisms of the sober hour. ---William James