...We also remember that the relationship is inherently unequalbecause as sponsees we are seeking guidance and placed in a vulnerable position. ..
It shouldn't be unequal. Not by any means. As the AA pamphlet on Sponsorship states:
"In A.A., sponsor and sponsored meet as equals, just as Bill and Dr. Bob did."
A sponsor acting honestly and with humility in accordance with the principles, beliefs and traditions of A.A. doesn't consider herself or himself "superior" to a sponsee.
There are no classes in A.A. Everyone is equal.
2granddaughters wrote:
Col, I wish you the best but if you are going to go toe-to-toe with your sponsor my money is on your sponsor. You should bow to her out of respect.
Uhm, this isn't a casino. This is recovery and A.A. There is no bowing in A.A.
-- Edited by Tanin on Tuesday 12th of March 2013 09:55:12 PM
Im working on step 9 amends. I'm writing the letters- at this point I am willing and eager to make amends to all but 1 person on my list (this 1 person has displayed predator type behavior towards me, and I'm unwilling to attempt to reach out to him again, because he refuses to treat me with respect). Ok- my question is regarding 'living amends' as opposed to the more formal reading somewhat formulated letter approach. There are several people, for instance, with whom I've already had a more casual and sincere conversation with regarding my behaviors of the past, apologized, and we've moved on in our relationship. We are cool now... So what would be the point of approaching them again about the same issues? This is a real point of contention between my sponser and I - both of us refusing to bend. I feel as though it's a bit self- centered and narcisistic to ask these people to again listen to me talk about things of the past that we've already discussed and resolved. She feels as though this 'fill in the blank' style letter she received from her sponser is the only way to go. To me, it seems insincere in some cases. How much time should I demand from people to discuss my recovery? They see I've changed, and am treating them with respect, honesty, and kindness. I dunno- maybe I'm wrong?
Thank you all for varied responses. My sponser and I generally have a great relationship with mutual respect. The method in which I'm making amends involves writing a letter that I then literally read to them. Much of this letter is pre-written- making direct mention of areas where I have been self-seeking, selfish, dishonest and frightened. I add to this pre scripted format with personal details and examples. In certain cases I feel as though I don't need this formal approach- especially if Ive already made amends with the person involved. I'm a bit confused myself, as I was under the impression this was a standard approach. Though my sponser is great, and we work well together, she is pretty black and white about the format of step work and didnt seem to understand my point of view. Rob, I appreciate your honestly. The one person I had mentioned I actually have attempted to reconnect with trying to establish a healthy relationship, as we are coworkers and both members of AA. Unfortunately, he does not respect me and continues to discuss private matters ( ie where I am in recovery) with coworkers and my employers. He has told people I'm back to drinking, he has sexually harrassed me for the 2 years that I've worked with him ( it had been discussed with employers). I have mentioned this person in several prior posts due to distress. I thought I was doing something wrong by not being more tolerant and accepting of him. I think he is unable to respect or see boundaries. I know this seems I am taking his inventory, or considering his character defects as a way to avoid another attempt at amends. Maybe I am. In this particular case, and the fact that he's old enough to easily be my father I think it best (after much praying and soul searching) to let this one be. I feel as though I'm setting myself up to approach him. I dunno, I'm just doing the best I can and trying to figure out the best way to proceed.
-- Edited by Col on Tuesday 12th of March 2013 11:43:27 PM
Im working on step 9 amends. I'm writing the letters- at this point I am willing and eager to make amends to all but 1 person on my list (this 1 person has displayed predator type behavior towards me, and I'm unwilling to attempt to reach out to him again, because he refuses to treat me with respect). Ok- my question is regarding 'living amends' as opposed to the more formal reading somewhat formulated letter approach. There are several people, for instance, with whom I've already had a more casual and sincere conversation with regarding my behaviors of the past, apologized, and we've moved on in our relationship. We are cool now... So what would be the point of approaching them again about the same issues? This is a real point of contention between my sponser and I - both of us refusing to bend. I feel as though it's a bit self- centered and narcisistic to ask these people to again listen to me talk about things of the past that we've already discussed and resolved. She feels as though this 'fill in the blank' style letter she received from her sponser is the only way to go. To me, it seems insincere in some cases. How much time should I demand from people to discuss my recovery? They see I've changed, and am treating them with respect, honesty, and kindness. I dunno- maybe I'm wrong?
As a sponsor myself, I'm not saying to not listen to your sponsor on this one issue, BUT I don't feel the same as your sponsor does ... I don't think that "ALL" your 'amends making' has to be done at one time at step nine ... I do, in fact, feel that as a person grows in recovery, they may face a person or persons that they know they will need to makes amends to in the near future, so if an opportunity comes about that lends itself to making an amends before the target date, then so be it, make the amends ... (WE read 'How it Works' at every meeting ... so the steps are well known pretty early in recovery ...) ...(just saying ... if you're in your first few weeks/months, then you have an opportunity to make an amends, go for it ... even if you're on step three ...) ...
When we actually get to step nine, I feel this person can be 'checked off' the list so to speak ... and I certainly would not want to open the 'box' that has previously been closed, for good reason ... SO Colleen, I agree with you ... if the amends was made and received well, then by all means, LEAVE it be ...
I also agree that the guy who has exhibited predator like behavior be left alone for now, maybe for ever, this may fall into the catagory of "except when to do so would hurt them or others" ... there are such relationsips that are such a 'bag of worms', you'd be nuts to even approach such individuals ... there's nothing saying that you can't wait and see if this person ever changes, and if so, then decide if an amends is still needed or not ... (I think it good to do an annual review after our first year in the program ... and repeating step nine just fulfills our 'continued to take personal inventory' part ...)
I do want to stress to everyone though, we DO need to be as thorough as is humanly possible ... we are looking for a really 'clean' side of the street to dwell on ...
Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
col, this is what stuck out tome: " How much time should I DEMAND from people to discuss my recovery?" ???????????DEMAND???????????????????? I DEMAND YOU TO LISTEN TO YOUR SPONSOR!! how'd that feel?
if its water under the bridge, i keep it there.if im not sure, 11th step.
For me,I believe the final decisions on what amends to make are up to you ,the sponsee. If your sponsor disagrees with that decision ask them to explain why(she kinda did)and have listened to what reasons she gives you and lets you know what she thinks the results will be,then I could only suggest using your intuition and praying until the correct answer comes,it will..Your Sponsor may be trying to ensure you are not working toward an incomplete amends..WE are responsible for our own recoveries. Many of our Step 9 amends will never be finished finished,our efforts will go on thru the rest of our individual recoveries (for example little offshoot....if we owe our family amends we will spend the rest of our lives practising spiritual principles that will bring about real change the way we treat people,,even concrete amends like paying a past due debt aren't done once paid off,WE live our 9th Step by ensuring we don't again incur debt we can't pay once again,even deeper, with taking favor from friends but never reciprocating,overextending the patience of others but not assuming our share of responsiblities etc are as much a part of continued amends as paying the $$$ debts. Anyway it is important not to build resentments within the Sponsor/Sponsee relationship ,which is one person (who has been farther in the process of the Steps)helping another by sharing their ESH(it is really all they have) in the best way they know how and for the sponsee to listen to suggestions, make decisions and leave the results to their Higher Power.There are many ways the Sponsor/Sponsee relationship work ,WE are not lemmings being led over a cliff blindly. Sponsors are not our therapists,they cannot keep us in recovery,encouraging dependance upon is never a good idea, our dependance should be on our HP, the fellowship and the program, the Steps modeled application by our sponsor in walking the walk not just talking the talk...........We also remember that the relationship is inherently unequal because as sponsees we are seeking guidance and placed in a vulnerable position. Honesty is truly the antidote to our diseased thinking, we share how we feel with our sponsor,make the amends we can and continue praying .This is my stuff ,Thanks for sharing,...With God(whatever that is for you) all things are possible...
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Hey Col, Its all about honesty. If you honestly feel you covered the material, put it behind you and consider the box checked. If your sponsor really makes an issue out of it, refer her to another sponsor's opinion (Pappy) I think if you ever got in a position with the person in question to where the subject came up, you could tell them of the 9th step, and recap your earlier talk, but again, if you know in your heart you have done your part, you need to just tell your Sponsor that bringing up the matter again would cause harm, so it needs to stay as it is. Thats what I think. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
I am a little confused about the "letter approach" not sure what that means. Are we still making direct amends only writing them out in letter form first?
Impossible to know the whole situation, but if you feel you have made sufficient direct amends to some people already, I'm not a fan of beating it to death.
How much time do they owe us? Probably none. We need to ask if they are willing to give it to us and they usually are, it doesn't need to be a conversation and usually will not take more than a few minutes. If they wish to reply, I think we owe them our ear. The important thing is that we remember the whole process is about cleaning our side of the street, their reaction is not part of this.
It is a little troubling that you are not willing to make amends to the one person due to their "character defects", we must remember the inventory is ours....not the other person's. It talks about not continuing this kind of alcoholic thinking in the book....even if it is a situation where it would be harmful to make the amend, we must pray to be "willing" to right wrongs of the past if we could.
Hope this isn't coming off wrong, just trying to be honest but not too brutal :) I know the hard work and progress you have made is simply amazing so far!
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Tanin ,you are correct my statement of being unequal was really meant to be "A sponsor is and alcoholic who has made some progress in the recovery program who shares that experience on a continual individual basis with another attemping to maintain sobriety. Sponsorship is an unwritten and informal but basic part of the A.A aproach to recovery from alcoholism thru the 12 steps.
Being inherently unequal meant for me, one having knowlwdge of the Steps and one not..but I can see where the statement could be misconstued by a newcomer.Thank you for pointing that out...SPONSORSHIP PAMPHLET Â sponsor and sponsored meet as equals, just as Bill and Dr. Bob did.
A sponsor is someone who has been where we want to go in our twelve step program and knows how we can best get there. Their primary responsibility is to help us work the 12 steps by applying the principles of the program to our lives. They lead us by example( as we see how the program works in their lives through sharing their personal experiences and stories of where they were and where they are now. We start to learn how to become sober by listening and doing the footwork that our sponsor shows us on a daily basis. In time we make these new changes a habit which helps us to remain sober one day at a time.
AA defines a sponsorship in this way: "An alcoholic who has made some progress in the recovery program who shares that experience on a continuous, individual basis with another who is attempting to attain or maintain sobriety through AA"
Some have made it through recovery without having a sponsor so I suppose it is not absolutely necessary but it is an absolutely good idea. This is what AA says about it in its official literature: Essentially, the process of sponsorship is this: an alcoholic who has made some progress in the recovery program shares that experience on a continuous, individual basis with another alcoholic who is attempting to attain or maintain sobriety through AA.
My sponsor is someone whom has allowed me much room in the development of my process after 25 years of active addiction.It has been valuable in my long term ability toremain free of picking up that 'first one" ,We havent always agreed on everything,but we share a spiritual connection and we together have maintained 50 years of freedom from active addiction.You don't need to have a sponsor like we know but I always found those who get the most out of the program value sponsorship.....Thanks for the help today!!!
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Thanks for the explainations. It is good to write out our wrongs on paper and make notes, just seems like reading someone a list would seen less than genuine.
Yes, there are situations we need to leave alone, just need to be "willing" to amends if possible.....doesn't mean we will or should given a particular situation.
All I can say is if we follow the book we can't go wrong, I'm sure your sponsor wants the best for you and is trying to help. Do what you feel is best according to the book but don't be disrespectful to your sponsor either.....maybe that is one to let be also ;)
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Tanin ,you are correct my statement of being unequal was really meant to be"A sponsor is and alcoholic who has made some progress in the recovery program who shares that experience on a continual individual basis with another attemping to maintain sobriety. Sponsorship is an unwritten and informal but basic part of the A.A aproach to recovery from alcoholism thru the 12 steps.
Being inherently unequal meant for me, one having knowlwdge of the Steps and one not..but I can see where the statement could be misconstued by a newcomer.Thank you for pointing that out...SPONSORSHIP PAMPHLET Â sponsor and sponsored meet as equals, just as Bill and Dr. Bob did.
.....Thanks for the help today!!!
You're welcome, Mike. I simply noted that AA is a program of equals, as the AA Sponsorship says: "In A.A., sponsor and sponsored meet as equals, just as Bill and Dr. Bob did."
We are all equals in AA. There are no classes, though, obviously some AA members don't practice that. As AA sponsors, we must always be vigilant that ego or lack of humility starts to motivate us to treat newcomers and/or sponsees as somehow lesser status members of AA.
There are no member classes in AA. We all are in the same boat, all having the same basic affliction. We all have an equal say.
Unfortunately, even though my post last night was helpful to you and others, it has been deleted by the moderator. Reason for same, unknown.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 09:32:36 AM
Some great advice here. Just a couple of thoughts.
"we should be hard on ourselves but always considerate of others" - should we bother people by reopening matters that have been resolved.
"Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all" When an amends is made there is usually forgiveness and healing, sometimes even reconciliation. If this has already occured, and the matter is resolved, does it belong on the list?
Perhaps you could review amands already made and consider if they were adequate "A mere mumbling that we are sorry won't fit the bill at all" Perhaps, if you feel more needs to be done with some one you could approach it along the lines of:
" I know I have raised this with you before and I appreciate the time/ what you said/grateful for your forgiveness etc (even stating that this step is vital for you recovery wouldn't hurt), But I would just like to be sure I have done everything possible to make this up to you. Could you tell me if there is anything more I can do to put matters right between us.
You will soon know if your first amends was adequate. Such an approach would not be time consuming or "heavy" but would allow the person to open the door to more discussion if they felt it necessary.
Sometimes i have been silent until the person is ready to hear what i have to say. You have your whole life. Let God direct the when. He will show you if hou ask
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
There are no member classes in AA. We all are in the same boat, all having the same basic affliction. We all have an equal say.
Student and teacher in the classroom have equal "rights" but if your goal is to educate the class then the teacher has more "value". I want to learn math so I want a teacher, not the student sitting next to me. I want to learn to get sober so I want a sponsor.
Tanin, if your argument were true then I wouldn't need a sponsor, I could just listen to the other newbie or do what I want (which got me here in the first place).
I feel the same member class in AA as the student/teacher when I'm with my sponsor and the oldtimers. Are the oldtimers always right? No ... but they are more right more often than I am. And I know it, and I respect it, and I rely on it, and I use it... and I thank God for it.
The private and the General have equal "rights". If all the privates thought they could direct the battle there would be chaos.
"Ask, Listen, and do what you're told", eh?
Hierarchy?
Classes and ranks?
Members with more "value," eh?
Reminds me of part of the history of the alcoholics who attended the New York Oxford Group meetings in the late 1930s. The OG also had a principle that everyone was "equal." But human nature, I guess, called for some ability to discern who really knew the precepts and principles and was adding value to the movement. So, they came up with a clever rhetorical trick. Everyone was "equal" but certain people were "maximum."
So, people in OG would talk about someone, say John Smith in the program ans would assess his value and knowlege and say either "John is maximum." Or they would say, "John is NOT maximum."
Most of the alkies never made "maximum" and Bill Wilson never did and the OGers let him know about it. Eventually, they kicked him out of OG.
Bill W. learned from that. It was one of the negative aspects of the Oxford that he specifically left behind when constructing AA canon, with good reason, for he know how alcoholics would try to outdo each others over even the slightest "value" differences.
The guy I sponsor has just as much "value" as I do in AA. No more. No less.
-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 13th of March 2013 02:34:09 PM
There are no member classes in AA. We all are in the same boat, all having the same basic affliction. We all have an equal say.
Student and teacher in the classroom have equal "rights" but if your goal is to educate the class then the teacher has more "value". I want to learn math so I want a teacher, not the student sitting next to me. I want to learn to get sober so I want a sponsor.
Tanin, if your argument were true then I wouldn't need a sponsor, I could just listen to the other newbie or do what I want (which got me here in the first place).
I feel the same member class in AA as the student/teacher when I'm with my sponsor and the oldtimers. Are the oldtimers always right? No ... but they are more right more often than I am. And I know it, and I respect it, and I rely on it, and I use it... and I thank God for it.
The private and the General have equal "rights". If all the privates thought they could direct the battle there would be chaos.
There are no member classes in AA. We all are in the same boat, all having the same basic affliction. We all have an equal say.
Student and teacher in the classroom have equal "rights" but if your goal is to educate the class then the teacher has more "value". I want to learn math so I want a teacher, not the student sitting next to me. I want to learn to get sober so I want a sponsor.
Tanin, if your argument were true then I wouldn't need a sponsor, I could just listen to the other newbie or do what I want (which got me here in the first place).
I feel the same member class in AA as the student/teacher when I'm with my sponsor and the oldtimers. Are the oldtimers always right? No ... but they are more right more often than I am. And I know it, and I respect it, and I rely on it, and I use it... and I thank God for it.
The private and the General have equal "rights". If all the privates thought they could direct the battle there would be chaos.
"Ask, Listen, and do what you're told", eh?
Hierarchy?
Classes and ranks?
Members with more "value," eh
I think the the point Bob is trying to make is that we all may have value to the group different areas. Certainly a experienced AA member who has sponsored others has value to the new person who wishes for a sponsor and aid in working the steps.
Tanin is correct in that we are all equally important in our own respects. Without each other in unity many of us would certainly die.
Without new members we wouldn't have the chance to sponsor and give away the gift, as we need to do to maintain our own recovery....thus their important value to all of us.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
I had great sponsorship and was taught the difference twix amends making and apologies. Amending is changing...my thoughts, feelings and behaviors which were alcohol affected before I got into program. Apologies are saying "I'm sorry" for what I did and then not doing it at all possible to whomever. "I'm sorry for what I did and I'm paying back what I owe is an apology and an amends in the same effort". Just from my experience. (((hugs)))
Thanks for all the feedback! That's what I love about MIP- all of the varying experiences. My primary concern is making amends from a sincere, heartfelt place and living differently today. I've really spent some time pondering this and asking my HP for guidance. I think I was afraid of showing disrespect towards my sponser, who has helped me so much. I do not want to cause damage to our relationship by not doing what she thinks is the only way. I truly believe that I must proceed from my heart, or these amends will ring of B. S. which is something most of these people have gotten more than enough of from me in the past. Thank you all for your advice and experiences:)
