Just what are you looking to support ? ... that sponsors are needed or not? ... that older sponsors have little if anything to contribute? ...
Your eligibility requirements ... : - You have been an AA sponsor for at least 1 year but no more than 3 years - You have less than 5 years of recovery - You are between the ages of 18-30
LMAO ... You cannot possibly have an unbiased study from these participants ... and anything you learn from this will be mostly GARBAGE ... good luck ... this misses the very core people involved with AA and recovery to start with ...
Is this for real, ??? ...
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Monday 4th of March 2013 09:02:31 PM
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I just wanted everyone to know that .. ... ... ... well actually ...
tomorrow will be my 2 months 'smoke free' ... ... just so you know, i am still prone to wild 'out-bursts' at the flip of a coin ... LOL (I still want a 'frickin' cigarette !!!)
oh, ... and thank you Tom
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Monday 4th of March 2013 10:52:48 PM
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
My brother asked me to post some harmless questionnaire's about alcoholism for his research at John Hopkins. He's a doctor - an addiction researcher with all the credentials people would kill for - yet he said to me on day one of my sobriety in a conversation about our treatment center he formerly worked at "yeah, they had aa meetings there and people from aa in the community would come and hold meetings there for the treatment people. I don't know why they would do that." As a non - alcoholic, no matter how many studies and millions of dollars of schooling - we just have to remember that these people - even though they really want to - CAN'T "get it" and THAT'S A GOOD THING! I am grateful to be an alcoholic. My brother can't understand that - and that's a good thing too - however I'm still grateful.
The criteria the OP was searching for is just a missing piece of the puzzle for her that she'll find out is actually not even a puzzle some day... but rather rubix cube. She doesn't know it's a rubix cube. Her reality is that she's doing a puzzle - she has no idea it's more complex than that because she can't know. You can't blame her for not knowing... and Pappy - each person is a person - a complex valuable member of this whole. This is the exact reason she wont be able to figure out a human rubix cube with puzzle pieces. You have no idea where people are in their recovery - each human person is different - and different each day. Where you are today, might be far removed from where others are with your same amount of sobriety. Just a couple weeks ago I was more insane than I was on day one.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Monday 4th of March 2013 11:00:58 PM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I am wanting to add to the existing literature on AA because I am a supporter of it. What is missing is the perspective from young adult AA sponsors who are in the earlier part in their recovery. The literature that does exist usually hears from those over the age of 40 and who have had an extensive amount of recovery. This is not a study aiming to "prove" anything, but to add voices to the existing psychological literature on AA and hopefully allow other mental health professionals to learn more about AA and the potential of sponsoring.
I am sorry you took my criteria as my personal opinion on what is helpful and who has something to contribute. I do believe young adults with a limited amount of sobriety, as long as they have completed the steps, do have something to offer others. This is of course in addition to older members and members with an extensive amount of recovery.
Welcome Therapist,
I recovered in AA in my early 20's using the same program as the old guys, of whom there were plenty. The thing is I did not have "young adult alcoholism", I had the same illness as them, and the solution was the same. Although I had treatment and counselling during my drinking career, my recovery was entirely AA based when I finally got there. At that point and since I have never had a problem relating to the older members.
By the same token in the city in which I lived at the time, a large number of young alcoholics came through the local treatment centre and many of these claimed they couldn't relate to the old guys. Funnily enouugh I had trouble relating to them and it made me quite uncomfortable, for a while, thinking I was different to other young people. I stayed in mainstream AA and am still sober 33 years later. I often wonder what happened to all those young ones, they aren't around now.
It is quite a risky business making allowances, or giving an impression that a particular group requires special circumstances to get sober. This just isn't so, and those that get hung up on differences often don't stay the course.
On your second paragraph, of course young AA members have as much to offer as anyone else who has taken the steps and been blessed with a spiritual awakening. Our litterature is not at all prescriptive in terms of age, we are all treated equally in this respect.
Perhaps the concept of sponsorship is misunderstood. Sponsors are not "qualified" or "senior" AA members who set about the business of applying the skills and knowledge they have learned to sober up others less fortunate. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The sponsor who has taken the steps knows that his or her sobriety depends upon trying to carry the message to others, trying to give away what they have got in order to stay sober themselves. Success is not in the number of people they sober up, their success is in the fact that they stay sober themselves. Whether the people they work with get sober or not is in God's hands.
God bless,
MikeH.
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 4th of March 2013 11:24:17 PM
-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 4th of March 2013 11:26:10 PM
My name is Martine Marte and I am clinical psychology doctoral student at the Wright Institute in Berkeley working on my dissertation. I am currently looking for participants for my dissertation study who are currently sponsors in Alcoholics Anonymous. Participation in this study will involve filling out a few forms and then meeting with me for about an hour where you will share your story of being a sponsor and your recovery process. This meeting will be scheduled at a place and time convenient to you. A gift card of $25 will be given at the end of the interview as a token of my appreciation to you for participating in this study. It is hoped that this study will provide psychologists and other mental health professionals with a better understanding of the role of AA and particularly with the experience of being a sponsor in AA in the process of recovery from addiction.
You are eligible for this study if:
- You are currently an AA sponsor
- You have been an AA sponsor for at least 1 year but no more than 3 years
- You have less than 5 years of recovery
- You are between the ages of 18-30
- You have completed all 12 steps with a sponsor before becoming an AA sponsor
If you meet these criteria and would be interested in being a participant in this study or if you have questions regarding eligibility or the study, please contact me at mmarte@wi.edu or call me at (510) 907-9857. I really appreciate your willingness to help and would welcome your involvement in the study. Thank you!
I am wanting to add to the existing literature on AA because I am a supporter of it. What is missing is the perspective from young adult AA sponsors who are in the earlier part in their recovery. The literature that does exist usually hears from those over the age of 40 and who have had an extensive amount of recovery. This is not a study aiming to "prove" anything, but to add voices to the existing psychological literature on AA and hopefully allow other mental health professionals to learn more about AA and the potential of sponsoring.
I am sorry you took my criteria as my personal opinion on what is helpful and who has something to contribute. I do believe young adults with a limited amount of sobriety, as long as they have completed the steps, do have something to offer others. This is of course in addition to older members and members with an extensive amount of recovery.
I apologize for my initial reaction to your request ... sorry ... But I still feel very opinionated here...
what you are typically looking for here is someone with around 3 or 4 years sobriety ... YOU DO realize that this is like working with an adolescent in many ways ...
Coming into AA, we were like babies ... we had to learn everything, all over again ... especially on the emotional & spiritual level ... what you are attempting, or the 'way' you are attempting it, is like you going to a 'kiddy' racecar training camp and interviewing a kid to see what makes Nascar tick or how does it feel to drive 200 mph ... What ever you come up with is going to be B.S. .... ... ... so why bother ???
It seems to me that your study is faulted beyond getting any usable information ...
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Hey Pappy, I applaud your emotional defense of the traditional program! Martine, our board is for us to stay sober. It is not a place for internet solicitation. I googled you and at least verified that there is someone of your name that is a counselor, but could you not work through local channels? I applaud a pro AA counselor doing positive work, so I do not want to dissuade you, but is this really the place? On the internet, where there could be risky for those that respond? Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
I respect your concern and do understand the purpose of the forums. I am working through local channels and besides posting flyers on community message boards, thought that a local online forum would be a non-intrusive way of communicating my study to those interested.
Pappy congrats on 60 days! You must be feeling better, food tasting better, breathing easier.
Thanks Dean ... Yes, I feel better, but I am copping an attitude I don't care for, LOL ... Yes, Food is tasting too damn good right now ... Breathing??? .... well, it was getting better till an extra 20 lbs showed up, now i can't see 'you know who' without a mirror, :( , and breathing is a chore because of the size my tummy is getting to ... ... that ain't so funny ...
You know what, I haven't had to cough in forever, WOW ... I used to couldn't laugh without going into a coughing fit ... this is great ...
Tasha, ... good point!!!
Mike, ... Great observation!!!
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
AA is so large and there is not an area that it really has yet to cover. Within 77 years and a gazillion conferences, YES this issue has already been addressed and it is in the literature.
Please go to: http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=194&product=3
That is a link to General Service and the page that shows you the Pamphlet entitled "Young People in AA." In that, you will find stories of alcoholics with varying lengths of sobriety aged 16 to 27. The literature is there. You need to look for it. Basically, general service had formed committees throughout the years to address all different groups of people and these pamphlets are pretty in depth.
I have thought about formal research of AA being done and how more knowledge of recovery for young people would be helpful, but I don't think AA is broken in any way, so I dismissed the idea. Plus, you will always get a skewed sample because AA is an anonymous program. Hence, those that volunteer are somewhat breaking traditions. So, AA does not really lend itself to being studied because it is a spiritual program and the interventions are not "clinical." To make them so winds up being obtuse and actually does a disservice to AA. The types of bonds that young people form in AA (or any people for that matter) are qualitative and spiritually healing. Most of our literature only discussed stories about how it was, what happened for us, and what it's like now. There is nothing missing in the literature because there are stories of young persons in AA being sponsored and sponsoring.
I am a general service representative to my local area AA service board. The literature committee has existed for many many years and they work hard to ensure the needs of all potential members are met and that the stories of recovery for all potential members are also reflected in our literature. I am not sure how you decided that there was "missing" literature in the area of young people. If there was a lack of literature regarding young people in AA, it would be because of the nature of alcoholism. It is a slow, insideous and progressive disease. On it's own, I would venture to say most of us do not hit a rock bottom untill at least our mid 30s. What is bringing young people into AA at earlier and earlier ages now is cross addiction (combined drug addiction). That is causing a need for younger people to be sponsors etc...because people with combined drug and alcohol problems hit AA and NA much younger than those who just have a primary alcohol problem. It will be hard to find literature on this group of people also because AA does not have an opinon on outside issues. Young people in this boat will not share much of their stories in actual AA literature because the stories involve drugs and AA always tries to stay focused on our primary purpose which is to help still sick and suffering alcoholics.
Furthermore, whatever literature or study you produce will probably not be accepted or endorsed by AA General Service because you didn't really get a good sample of AA and AA didn't ask for or see a need for the "study" or literature. It will just be another "non-AA approved book" about recovery for young persons. AA will almost surely state they do not endorse any of your "research" so expect that before trying to add to our actual AA approved body of literature.
I do think it's good that research is done on the recovery process for all ages...young folks included, but most of us know that the solution is in AA when we are ready for it. Many young persons just are not there yet and they need to hit a sufficient bottom. So...that is generally the reason for not so many young folks in AA, not because AA has a lack of literature or perspective on young folks in recovery. It would be more useful to research how to increase awareness of AA in colleges and in places where seeds might be planted. That would be either primary or secondary prevention and that is where young folks probably need more services (before Alcoholism grows more progress and kicks their butt all over the place). Nonetheless, people have to go through what they have to in order to get to AA. No research or study is going to stop the nature of alcoholism and how it progresses insideously and develops into an all encompassing life threating sickness usually by our 30s (but sometimes earlier and sometimes later depending...).
Just remember, when you are dealing with an organization as old as AA and that has had as many conventions and so forth to literally nitpick ever detail of the literature...It's very presumptous to decide unilaterallly that there is a "lack of" literature in any one area. It has been discussed, there is a lengthy pamphlet I linked to above, there are young persons meetings all over the world....it is out there. Prior to me being in AA for several years, I would not have known this either though so I applaud you for trying to find ways to help folks that might seem to be a more vulnerable or fringe population in AA.
**The AA gravevine (our montly magazine publication) also strives to find stories that represent all groups of people in recovery. I believe 2 months ago, the entire AA gravevine was titled "Young and Sober in AA." Also, the grapevine has put out a book as of just last year. Here is the title and description of the book:
Book Description: Young and Sober
Publication Date:July 31, 2012
In this collection of Grapevine stories about the joys and challenges of getting sober at an early age, AA members talk about recognizing their disease even though their drinking may have only lasted a few years. Written by members who got sober in their teens, 20s and 30s, the articles in this book are about growing up young in AA, finding ways to connect when feeling different, getting involved in service and learning how to live a sober life joyously.
Pappy you gotta rethink using the word "we" when refering to the AA fellowship or program. Use I...that brings your perspective and opinion down to the proper size. You can only speak for yourself so do so...(courtesy of early sponsorship) Maybe run your response to this Therapist by your sponsor? Just saying. Of course I am also a past AA and other substances Therapist and a recovering alcoholic myself with some time at it. One of the gateways into the program is thru the trust and willingness of the mental health industry and while I never willingly worked with the mind and emotions of alcoholics and addicts I did and still do respect those that have made a commitment to fight our disease in those jungles. No I am not qualified by the criteria mentioned and I am also not qualified to respond in a manner which makes my recovery (from anything) suspect. You're on a nicotine jag? Really? Maybe I missed that part of the program which allows for Jack Schitty remarks like that because I couldn't get enough nicotene out of my last Cigar to last me. You think this therapist is as willing now as when she first got here? Think she may want to refer a client who has difficulty reaching meetings to check out MIP?
I have to agree with pappy here. I've been sober 24 years and have been a sponsor for many years. I don't understand the limit to years as a sponsor, years in recovery or age limit. Many of my younger sponsees who become sponsors come to me for advise not only on their recoverery but questions concerning their sponsees. A sponsor wears many hats and just like recovery itself being a sponsor gets better with time and experience. Good luck on your survey but I'm a bit confused and skeptical.
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Tell me and I'll forget. Teach me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn.
Last night at a meeting I was asked to sponsor a Lady. I am a couple weeks from being sober a year. My sponsor of 10 years said in the 100's of woman she has sponsored only once has she 'given the okay' for a sponsee to sponsor with less than a year sobriety. And she was actually trying to get me to sponsor a couple months ago! And I say this not to brag AT ALL because it scared the beegeebee's outta me! We have a lack of woman with recovery, and a lot of treatment centers hauling a lot of young woman to meetings. They are told to find sponsors. The woman here are overwhelmed with 6 or more sponsee's at a time usually. It allows for a lot of practice I guess... and that's a good thing. However... I know damn well this woman who came to me last night is gonna get jipped. I told her I didn't want to look like I have no self confidence, but that she should keep her eyes open for some one to become available with long term sobriety, because I care about her getting off to the best start.
I love recovery - and I rock it - but I'm still only 11 months sober, and I 'rock it' like the baby in recovery I am, and that's okay for me, but for her???? I just know she could do better, and I say that with as much confidence as possible without it being a detriment.
I guess my point is - situations are different all over. Where I grew up - there are almost no aa meetings, and if one of the little rinky dink towns have a meeting, there are usually only 1 or 2 woman, and they HAVE TO sponsor each other no matter what kind of sobriety each has... if they are LUCKY enough to even have another woman at all. Even though this town is much larger - the same problem presents itself just due to the sheer number of addicts and alcoholics being bussed in each week looking to be able to go back and tell their therapist they found a sponsor like they were told to.
It would be interesting to know how many would get a sponsor if they didn't have to for paperwork purposes.
Some of the woman who are serious from all these little towns make the drive here to be able to find more woman in recovery - only to find the woman here already bogged down.
I'm not God, I don't know what's right. This is how he's laid it out. I do know, I have to try and sponsor BOTH types of woman, get experience, get better at it now, even though I know I don't have the best experience, or the most of it. I have to start somewhere and do everything I can to help out, because I feel more than ever, that we're ALL in this ship together... and whenever anyone anywhere reaches out, I want the hand of AA to always be there.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Oh - and good point Jerry - about her recommending someone to MIP - I am starting to realize it's important to check how I'm coming across not only for the newcomer, but everyone. Throwing a big fit is pretty selfish, and I've done it plenty, but THAT is what a sponsor is for! I do need to start thinking outside myself and remember that we are a program of attraction when I'm in public.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Pappy you gotta rethink using the word "we" when refering to the AA fellowship or program. Use I...that brings your perspective and opinion down to the proper size. You can only speak for yourself so do so...(courtesy of early sponsorship) Maybe run your response to this Therapist by your sponsor? Just saying. Of course I am also a past AA and other substances Therapist and a recovering alcoholic myself with some time at it. One of the gateways into the program is thru the trust and willingness of the mental health industry and while I never willingly worked with the mind and emotions of alcoholics and addicts I did and still do respect those that have made a commitment to fight our disease in those jungles. No I am not qualified by the criteria mentioned and I am also not qualified to respond in a manner which makes my recovery (from anything) suspect. You're on a nicotine jag? Really? Maybe I missed that part of the program which allows for Jack Schitty remarks like that because I couldn't get enough nicotene out of my last Cigar to last me. You think this therapist is as willing now as when she first got here? Think she may want to refer a client who has difficulty reaching meetings to check out MIP?
I am truly sorry, I did, in fact, use 'we' ... With my time in AA, it seemed appropriate here ... maybe I'm wrong ??? ... I shared:
I apologize for my initial reaction to your request ... sorry ... But I still feel very opinionated here...
what you are typically looking for here is someone with around 3 or 4 years sobriety ... YOU DO realize that this is like working with an adolescent in many ways ...
Coming into AA, we were like babies ... we had to learn everything, all over again ... especially on the emotional & spiritual level ... what you are attempting, or the 'way' you are attempting it, is like you going to a 'kiddy' racecar training camp and interviewing a kid to see what makes Nascar tick or how does it feel to drive 200 mph ... What ever you come up with is going to be B.S. .... ... ... so why bother ???
It seems to me that your study is faulted beyond getting any usable information ...
__________________
'Today, ... I'm better than I deserve.'
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I think you could have still said "I" and it would have been just as effective : ) Just my opinion, and I need to work on this too, so I'm glad it was brought up for US ; )
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
1. A psychiatrist is different than a Clinical Psychology intern. 2. The article cited above is about working colaboratively with medical professionals not about lending ourself to study as test subjects. 3. These psychiatrists were looking to learn about AA not critique it and talk about what's missing from it without being part of it.
So, while I see it as crucial that we don't ostracize either psychologists or psychiatrists (or any other professional for that matter), it do think it's dangerous to open up AA to research from a psychological or psychiatric standpoint because it's not a psychiatric or psychological intervention and those who are trying to study it are often not part of AA to know what it's really about. AA is a program devised by almost entirely by alcoholics for alcoholics. It doesn not need any psychological critique and it is self-sustaining. Suppose the study yields results showing that those young people who become sponsors are far more likely to stay sober than those who don't? Well that is kind of an intuitive deduction but there would then be what? A recommendation from a outside source on what AA should do for the good of it's younger members. We would be urged by the therapeutic community to turn young people into sponsors as soon as possible? Does AA want that kind of feedback? Do we need it? Therapist's treating young alcoholics don't necessarily need to be making those recommendations because AA already makes appropriate suggestions about when a young person could qualify to be a sponsor and what is to be gained by it.
So unless we want to be getting feedback on how to change AA or from outside sources (people other than alcoholics), it's slippery ground to lend AA to research. Similarly, we do not lend our opinion to how the fields of psychiatry or psychology function. We are not doctors and they are not AA.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 5th of March 2013 07:54:28 PM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
"Today I have a clearer perspective on what my role as a sponsor is and isn't. It is to stay sober, be available to listen, share my thoughts, pray for others, and let them live their own lives. It is not to 'fix' anyone, get them sober, make them happy, demand they conform, or make their decisions."
Berlin, Conn., September 2004 From: "What a Sponsor Is and Is Not" AA Grapevine
Since it is dated 2004, I guess it doesn't qualify under your criteria either. I guess you could try reading the book. Good luck!
I don't believe cooperation with the medical profession by individual AA members or groups breaks any traditions.
Tradition 6, long form, clearly states that AA groups may cooperate with anyone. For example, we frequently give talks at medical schools to explain the AA programme. Part of 12 step work is to carry our message to the wider community in order that we can improve the wider understanding of alcoholism. Our traditions on anonymity apply to personal anonimity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.
Dr Bob once said maintaining anonimity at any other level is also a breach of this tradition. We don't want to be so anonymous that no one can find us. Then there is the duty to protect the anonimity of fellow members. Then there is the 12th tradition which is about humility .
I don't have any literature lists with me but I am sure we produce pamphlets on cooperation with the medical fraternity. Of course members participating in such cooperation ought to make it clear that they speak as individuals and express no views or opinions on outside issues on behalf of AA as a whole.
Gracious it seems like there is a lot of forgetting how AA started and who what there for the suffering alcoholic and wasn't AA programmed. For me I am grateful for everyone who made and makes the effort to "reach out" to the suffering alcoholic. Where would my understanding about "conscious/sub-conscious" acceptance be without Harry Tiebout? and this was only one HP-gift for this alcoholic. We end every District meeting with the resitation of the AA Declaration, "When anyone...anywhere...reaches out for help. I want the hand of AA to alway be there and for that I am responsible". It's Ironic in the light of this discussion that the declaration doesn't say when any alcoholic anywhere...it says anyone. Alcoholism is huge...gigantic!! There are forces on a daily basis employed to widen it's foundation and outreach and who have been doing this for thousands of years. This is one alcoholic who when he had crashed off of his bottom and was sure he would not be alive much longer, who didn't particularly care who answered his request..."Can you help me Pleeeeze". I can tell you that early on the personalities of the local AA community turned me off and kept me out of the AA rooms. The reference of "AA Nazis" brought smug smiles to many a members face. For me I turned and walked away and there were times that walk away was preceeded with a threat. I have lived longer than I had thought possible under my conditions and one of the things I came to learn how to say to everyone and anyone who was there to help me was Mahalo...Thank You for all you've done for me. I hope I will do the same. ((((hugs))))
There's no forgetting here. And I am aware Carl Jung was consulted too (a psychiatrist...and Dr. Silkworth). Nonetheless they were consulted to help build up AA. AA is now self supporting. I am thankful to my therapist and to my other doctors, but they don't give me AA. AA gives me AA.
Of course we would help doctors and therapists who come into AA (I am one of those), but I don't think we need to help them with research because we live in the solution already. What's to research? You want to change the big book? Add a chapter "to the young person?" Good luck. At AA conventions it takes a massive vote to even change or rephrase 1 word of the big book. The program is written.
I'm not saying don't be nice or accomodating or not steer someone in the right direction....Nor am I saying they are not welcome to learn more about AA, but nothing is missing from our literature. We already produce books for special populations within General service. If we open up AA to be critqued scientifically be the medical field, then it will become treatment. So what I am saying, is work hand and hand, but not be test subjects using the name of AA in any way because that is going down a risky slope.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I think you could have still said "I" and it would have been just as effective : ) Just my opinion, and I need to work on this too, so I'm glad it was brought up for US ; )
I thought this was a 'we' program ... and the writers that repeatedly use 'I' seem so much more 'self-centered' ... maybe it's just me ... the message I was trying to get across seemed pretty straightforward to me ...
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
How does this version of what you said sound to you?
"I have heard in the rooms that alcoholics coming into the program are sometimes like babies - having to learn everything all over again. That was my experience coming in... etc etc etc."
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I almost failed 'English' in both H.S. and College ... what can I say ... ? ... your way does sound better ... but you're a professional!!! ... LOL
Okay, I went back and 're-read' this thing again ... I STILL stand by my use of we ... the BB even says WE were childish in nature or emotionally immature or something like that ... anyway that reference did seem directed to us all (the alcoholics) and not just one individual coming in the door ...
Okay I've really forgotten what the whole 'point' of this conversation was all about .... ... ... ... Seriously, I haven't a clue now ... was it the simple distinction between the two words 'I' and 'we' ???
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Haha - I know - silly nitpicking I don't think is a sign of spiritual progress.... or should I say "we don't find nitpicking a sign of spiritual progress?" LOOLOLOLOL
I'm out - my love isn't conditional pap ; )
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Gracious it seems like there is a lot of forgetting how AA started and who what there for the suffering alcoholic and wasn't AA programmed. For me I am grateful for everyone who made and makes the effort to "reach out" to the suffering alcoholic. Where would my understanding about "conscious/sub-conscious" acceptance be without Harry Tiebout? . . .
People forget how much AA in its formation took from the fields of medicine and psychiatry/psychology. Some folks in AA actually think AA came up with all new principles about human behavior and health. Pride in success began back in the late '30s and continues today. People regularly slag doctors and psychs as not knowing much if anything about their fields.
Bill Wilson observed this and knew it was a temptation and a trap. He even put warnings in the big book:
"God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. Most of them give freely of themselves, that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable..."
Some people think it's a zero-sum game. They blow right past Bill's cautionaries--even those in the Big Book.
Pity.
I wonder if we've run off the OP? She was just trying to do some research to get her doctoral dissertation done. Maybe add a little bit to the literature. No harm at all to me or anyone else in AA. Except for the pride trap, of course.
-- Edited by Tanin on Saturday 9th of March 2013 08:30:39 PM
1. A psychiatrist is different than a Clinical Psychology intern. 2. The article cited above is about working colaboratively with medical professionals not about lending ourself to study as test subjects. 3. These psychiatrists were looking to learn about AA not critique it and talk about what's missing from it without being part of it.
So, while I see it as crucial that we don't ostracize either psychologists or psychiatrists (or any other professional for that matter), it do think it's dangerous to open up AA to research from a psychological or psychiatric standpoint because it's not a psychiatric or psychological intervention and those who are trying to study it are often not part of AA to know what it's really about. AA is a program devised by almost entirely by alcoholics for alcoholics. It doesn not need any psychological critique and it is self-sustaining. Suppose the study yields results showing that those young people who become sponsors are far more likely to stay sober than those who don't? Well that is kind of an intuitive deduction but there would then be what? A recommendation from a outside source on what AA should do for the good of it's younger members. We would be urged by the therapeutic community to turn young people into sponsors as soon as possible? Does AA want that kind of feedback? Do we need it? Therapist's treating young alcoholics don't necessarily need to be making those recommendations because AA already makes appropriate suggestions about when a young person could qualify to be a sponsor and what is to be gained by it.
So unless we want to be getting feedback on how to change AA or from outside sources (people other than alcoholics), it's slippery ground to lend AA to research. Similarly, we do not lend our opinion to how the fields of psychiatry or psychology function. We are not doctors and they are not AA.
1. The OP is embarking on a career of practicing and researching in the medical field of addiction. She is not an intern, she is a doctoral candidated. She will, hopefully, become a Ph. D.
2. Bill Wilson's cited article is about the danger of AA slagging the helping professions and fields, such as psychology, psychiatry, medicine, doctors, practitioners, etc.
3. Same as No. 2.
It seems like we have successfully run off the doc candidate. I wish her good luck in getting her subjects. She needs data to complete her study and the only way to get data is to get subjects. I wish we could have been more supportive. Not by getting directly involved in it. But simply by not slagging it.
A few points to untangle some apparent misconceptions:
A. As a requirement of a doctoral program, the candidate must complete a new research project and write it up in a dissertation. The candidate will have a dissertation committee and a major professor to guide, assist, evaluate and to approve the completed dissertation. In designing the research study, the candidate will review the exisiting literature (academic literature) pertinent to the study. The candiate will be trying to add some useful new knowledge to that lterature (academic literature). The full design of the study is apt to be extensive and cannot be fully described in one small post.
The researcher does not use AA as a subject, instead she will study patients and persons in recovery who are AA members. In this case, it has something to do with young people being sponsored by youngt people and what the efficacy of that is from a clinical perspective.
The researcher is using some kind of qualitative methodology to gather and analyze the data collected. She will have some findings and will write them up in her dissertation. If accepted by her committee, she will be awarded a PH.D.
The dissertation will be made publically available and will likely be read by about 6 people. It will not be presented to AA.
AA will not be criticized and no suggestions to change the AA literature or practices will be forthcoming.
After the Ph. D. is earned, if the research is good enough it willl be rewritten into an academic article form and will be submitted to an academic or medical journal, where it will be reviewed and approved for publication. Then it will be published in the journal and about 4 pieople will read it there.
This type of research is not "dangerous" nor is it a "slippery slope for AA. It is simply research in the field of addiction psychology.
An example of some current such research is the study by Dr. Maria Pagano of Case Western Reserve University that is explained in the abstract at:
Youth's addiction recovery predicted with AA-related helping tool
I hope I didn't contribute to running her off and if so I apologise.
Your comments above a very informative, I definately know only a little! but "God will constantly disclose more to you and to us" How very true, and actually how in tune Martine's work is with the sentiments expressed in the foreword to the first edition to increase understanding of the alcoholic problem, It also contains the statement "Inquiry by scientific, medical, and religious societies will be welcomed. Not so sure we lived up to that very well in this instance.
MEMO ON PARTICIPATION OF A.A. MEMBERS IN RESEARCH AND OTHER NON-A.A. SURVEYS
Since the early days of our Fellowship, the participation of A.A. members in research and surveys has been sought and has occurred. In recent years there has been an escalation of concerns about alcoholism in all parts of our society. As a result, A.A. can expect that requests for participation in research may increase.
In general, within A.A. there is a favorable attitude toward research. As Bill W. wrote, Today the vast majority of us welcome any new light that can be thrown on the alcoholics mysterious and baffling malady. We welcome new and valuable knowledge, whether it issues from a test tube, from a psychiatrists couch or from revealing social studies. Historically, participation has been worked out on a case by case basis. Some of the attempts to cooperate have led to strained relationships while more have been successful, mutually satisfying, and produced new insights.
How A.A. members might cooperate with research has been discussed by the trustees Committee on Cooperation with the Professional Community. At the suggestion of that committee, we offer this memo both to those who would solicit the participation of A.A. members in research and to those A.A. members who will be approached about such request.
The best research relationships between A.A. members and researchers have been those in which the researcher has become thoroughly familiar with the Fellowship before making an inquiry about participation. At the same time, the A.A. members who would be involved have become acquainted with the researcher so that they trusted him or her, and have been convinced of the researchers commitment, competence, integrity and respect for the Traditions of A.A. The investigator has been forthright in giving the A.A. members all the information about his or her research which they needed in order to make an informed decision about it.
For A.A. members, cooperating with the researcher and being part of research program raises most of the same issues as cooperating with any other non-A.A. professional or engaging in any other non-A.A. undertaking. The questions are amenable to the same kinds of solutions. See: How A.A. Members Cooperate with Professionals and the C.P.C Workbook. As long as there is frank communication and attitudes of open-mindedness and flexibility, it has proved possible to work out ways of participating in research which do not require A.A.
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members to compromise A.A.s Traditions and which permit the researcher to arrive at valid findings.
The researcher should be aware that Central Offices in A.A. cannot offer the kinds of assistance he or she may be used to from the headquarters of other organization, e.g. access to records, endorsement, etc. However, the researcher may receive some help from the General Service Office, Intergroup Offices, Intergroup Offices, and local offices of other kinds.
Individuals in these offices may be willing to give the researcher their opinions about the projects and about their feasibility.
Literature can be provided which will prove helpful to the researcher in understanding A.A., what it is, what it can and cannot do, as well as how A.A. members cooperate with non- A.A. undertaking.
A copy of this memo can be provided.
Decisions about whether or not to cooperate in research are always made at the local level where the research will occur. Almost always the request for participation has been made to individual A.A. members who have then sought the cooperation of other members. In rare instances, the request has been made to a group. When A.A. members have decided to cooperate, it has been in their capacity as private citizens.
Those individuals approached about cooperation will want to make an informed judgment about whether to participate and about whether to seek the participation of others. Indeed, with the increased requests for research cooperation, it is necessary that selection take place. Some of the kinds of questions the individual might have are: What is being studied, by whom why and how; who will carry out the research at the local level; what will cooperation involve, e.g. interviews, questionnaires, amount of time; who will evaluate the findings; who will use the findings for what purpose; in the light of A.A. Traditions, is cooperation possible; what arrangements are made to ensure anonymity, etc.?
A.A. is concerned solely with the personal recovery and continued sobriety of alcoholics who turn to the Fellowship for help. Meetings are devoted exclusively to the A.A. program. No research which could interfere with this goal could be tolerated. Some groups have permitted questionnaires or interviews to occur after meetings provided that participation is on a personal, voluntary basis.
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7. A.A. and its members are particularly concerned with anonymity. While most researchers are skilled at ensuring anonymity, A.A.s concerns may raise unique issues. For example, as no A.A. can break the anonymity of another, there may be ticklish issues in soliciting cooperation from others. Some research procedures may also require extra precautions.
And, a final quote from Bill W. about cooperation with non-A.A.s working to resolve the problems of alcoholism, So let us work alongside all these projects of promise to hasten the recovery of those millions who have not yet found their way out. These varied labors do not need our special endorsement; they need only a helping hand when, as individuals, we can possibly give it.
We welcome additional information from researchers and from members of A.A. who have experience to share or comments to make.