All I'm going to say is that all my mental disorders seemed to have alcohol at the source ... BUT, I also believe there ARE those too that suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders ... and I feel they have a chance at recovery if they have the capacity to be honest ... (ref. pg. 58 in the BB)


Pappy

I'm a professional. A professional alcoholic! And that's all I need to be.:)

Col wrote:

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Oh boy.. I'm not really going to fully agree because I'm not a professional and I could be ignorant about this topic. Food for thought? Yes, definitely. I do know, in my own experience, I spent years in and out of therapy being diagnosed with many different things throughout those years. I've always been against taking medication for myself, but it was at times strongly recommended. I do know that many of the issues ( depression, anxiety, antisocial tendencies, suicidal ideation) I had been in therapy to address were not really even touched until I found AA. That's only my personal experience, though.

---

 

Alcoholism if left untreated can be deadly, yes!

Chaya wrote:

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I couldn't disagree more, but I don't feel like this is the right forum for such a discussion. Please know, that mental illness, like alcoholism, is progressive. If left untreated it can also be deadly.

---

 

Therapy never helped me do things like stick to it when I tell someone I won't darken their doorway again!

 

 

(((odat)))  LOL I'm reminded of a ton of feedback I got from the fellowship and from the professional world regarding my take on things.  One from the program is..."Could you be wrong"?  and from the professional world  "Alcoholic drink because they have problems" while from my program the word was "Alcoholics have problems because they drink".  My experience is from both worlds and what always has helped me grow is the question "Could you be wrong"?   My answer now is yes...of course...supported by

AN ARTIST'S CONCEPT
    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
     --HERBERT SPENCER

This quote once appeared in the first edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous...I believe.  I later heard it mentioned as "Contempt prior to investigation is arrogance".

Things change over time but the idea remains with me.  The idea that "Our book is mean't to be suggestive only..." keeps me a humble alcoholic as I sit in recovery with a world wide fellowship of different souls.  Mahalo AA for being patient with this alcoholic with other issues.   ((((hugs))))   

"I know for a fact, you are doing the best you possibly can with what you have"

 

 

ROFL!

What good does it do to be antagonistic? We're all in the same boat heading to the same destination.

It's not up to me to judge, nor is it up to me to diagnose. All I can say is....be VERY careful!

I'm always direct, never passive-aggressive too!

Exactly! In the big book we find truth, and it is in that truth where GOd is.

And today, anytime I sell out my honesty, I don't sleep!!!!!!!!
THat's what a sick person I am without God.
So you see, I'm not better or worse than anyone else and I don't have time to compare.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it too!

odat wrote:

---

I met a lady yesterday who said she works at the local detox in the "dual diagnosis ward".  If I didn't have a little recovery under my belt I would have blurted out, "There IS no such thing."

Cuz there ain't.

It's all alcoholism. Depression and anxiety are not separate from it and there is no pill for it either.

Only an alcoholic can help another alcoholic recover too.

Am I starting trouble today? I dunno...I don't mean to...it's simply food for thought...GOOD food for thought.

---

 Merry Xmas all. I get your point odat. Maybe it should be called a mis-diagnosis ward. I have been around a while and I have met dozens of AAs, now clean and sober, who claim they were mis diagnosed and treated/medicated for every disorder imaginable. Some say this might be because they weren't entirely honest with their doctors, others had major battles with their doctors prescribing unwanted drugs.

Resentment and self pity are part and parcel of early recovery and it is easy to see how they might be confused with depression. I well remember sitting in the rooms bleating about being depressed. That is until I met someone who suffered from real depression, then I began to understand the difference between poor me and the chamber of horrors that is depression. That and other serious emotional and mental disorders are not within the scope of AA to treat. That is the territory of the professionals. But if such a one is getting that treatment, AA can still be effective in treating their alcoholism if they have the capacity to be honest.

In all my time in AA I would struggle to name 5 or 6 that I have met with such serious disorders, so in my experience it is quite rare. Our national treatment hospital had only one or two percent of patients requring medication for serious mental illness. 98% were not permitted any medication and had their bags etc searched on arrival. The doctors running that program believed medication was not helpful to recovery, and they had probably the best recovery rates of any treatment centre in the world. The government closed them down around 2000 due to spiritual aspects to the program - not politically correct.

Since then. on a local level, we appear to be having an epidemic of alcoholics with serious emotional and mental disorders. Some of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

 

BTW Mike, it sounds like you have a real good doctor there - stick with him, take the steps, youve got as good a chance as anyone of a great life.

God bless,

MikeH.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Tuesday 25th of December 2012 01:17:50 AM

So I'm new here...and new to sobriety (30 days). I'm starting to read these discusssions about depression and alcoholism as though they are defacto tied together.
I was not so aware of my underlying depression. Is this common to every alcoholic? Do they go hand in hand?
I'm actually more depressed now that I'm sober. I chalk it up to PAWS but I honestly feel worse (emotionally) now that I've quit.

Interestingly my doctor does not want to prescibe an antidepressant, instead he wants me to seek psychotherapy for my depression. Hell, that could take a lifetime.

mike1220 wrote:

---

So I'm new here...and new to sobriety (30 days). I'm starting to read these discusssions about depression and alcoholism as though they are defacto tied together.
I was not so aware of my underlying depression. Is this common to every alcoholic? Do they go hand in hand?
I'm actually more depressed now that I'm sober. I chalk it up to PAWS but I honestly feel worse (emotionally) now that I've quit.

Interestingly my doctor does not want to prescibe an antidepressant, instead he wants me to seek psychotherapy for my depression. Hell, that could take a lifetime.

---

 

I'm not a doctor so do with this as you will but a fair amount of depression is alcohol related - not all, mind you, but a lot. Mine was. I didn't realise it either until I sobered up just how bad I had it (the denial part of the disease maybe), and I felt many times worse when I first got sober too.

Your mind and body are going through a hell of a lot of changes right now, and you're learning to deal with your unblunted emotions too. You're probably at a loss on what to do with your time, and you feel a combination of anxiety about the future and remorse about the past. It's a mess. I call it my 'head in the washing machine' period of my life.

It does get better. I can't give you a time frame as everyone is different, but the steps should speed up the process if you are fairdinkum about them (don't ask me how they do it - they just do). Just don't have that first drink for any reason and it'll get better. If you have to do it one minute at a time then so be it. It'll probably be rough for a little while longer but it is so worth it to come out the other side free and happy.

Boy, ... I think it's great to get all this out into the open ... (it's how I learn)

Okay, I don't know why I keep getting drawn to this thread, but here I am again ... I just wanted to add that when I was going through my 2nd year of sobriety, I had the same opinion as Odat ... I was experiencing the 'miracle' of recovery and developed a 'faith in God' that has become almost unshakable ... I too, came to believe that there was nothing that was not possible through God ... and I still do ... HOWEVER, ... that does not translate to others having the same 'faith' because we all have our own 'level' of faith ... yes, I feel that God CAN cast out demons (which is what I see 'mental illness' as) if He/She feels compelled to do so ... and I feel 'prayer' is a means of communicating what we desire for others, so as to appeal to God for the healing of another ...

SO ... as I grew in the program, convinced that anyone could be healed with enough 'faith and petitioning' to God, I came to realize not everyone believed to that degree and therefore made it dangerous to suggest that others do like me concerning the use of prescribed medications ... I'm not suggesting others just don't have enough faith, I am suggesting we don't understand God and His/Her plan for us or anyone else ... so we need to leave that to the personal journey of the other person ...

And here's another thing, I had a mild heart attack earlier this year and later on a mild stroke ... SO ... I am now taking medication for reducing the likelihood of those being repeated ... does it make me have less faith, certainly not ... I believe God granted us the intelligence to come up with certain cures on our own and for me to refuse the medication that will help me would be down right stupid ... I mean, if I ask God to cure my current situation AND refuse to take what will make me better, then when I die and meet God I know he'll say, I gave you the cure you asked for but you just wouldn't listen and take the pills ... there you went, trying to be in control of everything again ... LOL

I'm learning a lot here, thanks guys/gals

 

Did any of that make any sense to anyone ???

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Tuesday 25th of December 2012 04:12:24 PM

Mike, You have more open-mindedness than anyone else here. Yes. Depression and alcoholism go hand in hand. The Solution is the steps in AA. The only set of directions on how to actually DO the steps are in the Big Book of AA.

For years we in AA tossed aside the directions and tried to make up our own (we love to run the show and complicate things and water down what's already been given to us.) Over the past 3 years or so, the fact that the steps always were and always will be in the Big Book has come back. And I thank God for that.

Many alcoholics continued to suffer in AA with horrific depression, guilt, shame, remorse, resetnemt, fear, sex problems...until we took an honest look at the basic simple steps the way they were laid out for us.

It is like nothing else I ever experienced in the world and nothing will ever be the same for me. I have had the spiritual experience which was the solution to my depression.

Keep that good healthy open mind and trust what your heart is telling you!

It's ALL alcoholism!

Bottles are just a symptom of underlyng causes and conditions!
And BTW, Pappy also has the good healthy open mind!!!!!!!!!!

MikeH, I totally agree that there are way to many recovering AAs on meds. Some need them, many others don't. But it's not my job to figure out who's who and give medical advise. I have my own theories, based on John Bradshaw's writings about OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) folks being predispositioned to being addicted to negative emotions (fear,anger, guilt, sorrow, remorse, shame...) and the chemicals (dopamine, adrenaline...) that these emotions cause the brain to secrete. These drugs are stronger then heroin and of course addictive. I know that you and odat don't want to hear about this because it's not written in the big book, but maybe this will help some others reading it. With cases of clinical depression and other mental illnesses, there is a shift in brain chemistry. Well if OCD folks are spending time in their  heads stirring up negative emotions about the past or future, this is going to happen. And if it happens on a regular basis, then the brain chemistry is going to be affected, altered, changed, and to an extent it's self inflicted. The way out can be working the 12 steps for sure, but unless folks learn to own their emotions and learn that they can change their mind about issues and circumstances (past, present, future) by turning them over to a Higher Power or other means (destigmatizing them). If they don't they will continue to suffer. This is where I agree with you MikeH, working the 12 steps, having a spiritual experience, using the tools of the program will rid most of us of depression, But odat, making statements that there is NO mental illness, just alcoholism, is stupefying, against AAs literature, and harmful. 

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 25th of December 2012 06:45:52 PM

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 25th of December 2012 07:36:42 PM

I would start with "on the family" and "healing the shame that binds us". They helped me tremendously. I have most of his books and a lots of audio cd's of his lectures.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1558744274/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Shame-Binds-Recovery-Classics/dp/0757303234/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 25th of December 2012 06:51:06 PM

I never said that. Aside from disagreeing with your view here, there's nothing to be mad at. If you are under a different name on the alanon board, that might make sense. I respond to all posts here if needed. I'm a moderator. Debating closing this thread though cuz it's so against AA principles. Outside issue...AA has no opinion.

Control feaks are a dime a dozen!

I'm unique!

pinkchip wrote:

---

I never said that. Aside from disagreeing with your view here, there's nothing to be mad at. If you are under a different name on the alanon board, that might make sense. I respond to all posts here if needed. I'm a moderator. Debating closing this thread though cuz it's so against AA principles. Outside issue...AA has no opinion.

---

 

For someone that seems to want to tout the big book, its just stuns me that you have it so incredibly wrong. Anyhow, here's some facts for anyone wanting more than someone's unqualified opionion:


Bill Wilson and the early writers of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous were very careful not to take a stand on medical matters or run at cross-purposes to the established medical society. Still, it would be decades before the medical community would embrace the disease model of alcoholism and accept the difficult truth that a group of erratic drunks had found a way to help people get and stay sober that had eluded science.

They were also quick to recognize that addicts, for the most part, are pretty complicated folks, and despite its success at helping each other get sober, AA alone was often not enough to manage the host of complications the average alcoholic possesses. The reality is that after drunks and addicts get sober, they probably still have some pretty serious issues ranging the entire spectrum of mental health disorders. Simply put, addiction or alcoholism rarely occurs in isolation. Bill W. politely labels this smorgasbord of disorders character defects. Not coincidentally, half the stepsnumbers four through 10are pretty much designed to help the recovering person manage or even eradicate these persistent problems.

Still, even Bill W. recognized that in many, or most, cases, the steps alone would not be enough to bring AA members back to full mental health. He chose his words carefully when he wrote that AA had no opinion on medical issues, pointedly urging members to seek outside help when necessary.

The reality is that after drunks and addicts get sober, they probably still have some pretty serious issues ranging the entire spectrum of mental health disorders.
But how does a person in recovery know that it is time to seek outside help and what type of help should they seek?

Again Bill Wilson can be admired for his prescience. Research has proven that he had it rightthat people with alcohol or other drug disorders often suffer from a bouquet of descriptive acronyms and psycho jargon that has replaced his placid character defectsduel disorders, comorbid disorders, MICA (mentally ill chemical abusers) and substance abusers with SMI (serious mental health illness), to name a few. The newest term is co-occurring disorder.

The percentages are a bit daunting; about 16% of the US population suffers from substance abuse problems. In people with mental health disorders, the number is almost twice as high: 29%. Forty-seven percent of schizophrenics and 56% of people with bipolar disorders have a substance abuse disorder. Almost 80% of alcoholics experience depression at some time in their lives, and 30% meet the diagnostic requirements for major depression. As many as one-third of people entering treatment for substance abuse issues meet the requirements for Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSD).

Dean, I would say that describes serious mental and emotional disorders to a T. The AA that called me on the sunday after my last bender suffered, and still does from this, but he is still sober, and takes his lithium as directed.

I haven't had the experience Pappy describes, losing someone because they were told to go off their meds. There was a young man we lost a while ago, nobody was telling him not to take his meds, but there were those telling him not to take the steps. He had been sober two years and really struggled the whole time. He had a sponsor who would not let him take the 4th step. My experience is that the consequences of not taking the steps can be just as serious as not taking medications.

I went through a bad patch about 10 years ago which apparently had the symptoms of clinical depression. I talked to my doc and his first reaction was to offer anti depressants. I reminded him I am alcoholic. He said yes but these are "non-addictive". For most people alcohol is also non addictive. Then I read about Bill Ws experience in the pamphlet "Emotional Sobriety" In that he explains how he found a spiritual solution to his depresion. His problem was an unhealthy dependence on people and AA. He had to shift his dependence to God. His depression appears to have been part of the spiritual malady. It was something of a revalation for me, and I experienced a change of outlook something along the lines that I think Odat is trying to explain.

There are always two sides to every question and the trick is to try and achieve a balanced view, and in this part of the world there is professional support for much of what Odat has said (except of course that serious mental illnesses are established fact).

The head of our National Addiction Centre and professor of psychiatry at Otago Medical School , Doug Selman, gave us an update on the latest thinking on the treatment of alcoholism. He opened with the remark that it turns out AA was right all along. He also stated that there was a certain group of alcoholics for which the only hope of recovery was a "conversion" experience. He said he could not use the word spiritual for professional reasons, but that AA were the experts in spirtual experience. He also said that they are back trying to bring about a conversion experience through medical means but have not managed it yet. Blew us away!

There is a feeling among some of the medical experts here that perhaps some alcoholics are medicated too freely or unnecessarily also. A psychologist and former AA non alcoholic trustee recently remarked that "the rate at which anti depressants are prescribed to diagnosed alcoholics is verging on criminal".

We all have different experience. Mine is that far more harm results from so called easier softer ways than comes from doing the work and feeling the pain.

God bless,
MikeH.

Hmmm, Dean - this describes my idea's also, however I've never read anything about it - so I'm buying some books by bradshaw right now. Merry Christmas to me : ) Thanks!