Experience isn't just everything that has happened to us and everything we've done, it's how it has shaped us, how we've dealt with it, reacted to it, and how it shapes our dealings today. The exact same thing can happen to two people, but their experience may be completely different.
I believe experience is always valid, *if* we are being honest. If my experience is different from yours, it doesn't mean one of us is wrong. If I am being honest in the moment about my experience, then it is 100% valid. Experience can't be trumped even by fact checking (to use a popular trope of the times), because by nature it is subjective. I have experiences in my memory that are factually incorrect, I'm sure - but they still shape me even if I apply the corrected facts.
Just an example: I am not a trusting person by nature. I have had many experiences beginning early in life that instilled me with a sense that people couldn't be trusted, yet my life is also filled with me seeking the trustworthy, placing stock in it, and being disappointed. The facts are, many of these people who let me down did the best they could. My parents for instance, I don't believe ever intentionally deceived me. They did what they thought was right at the time, or perhaps what THEY needed at the time. Maybe it was about them, and not about me. I understand this, and I don't hold any grudges against my parents today. However, the distrust remains - perhaps a healthy distrust or simply knowing that the person may not have *my* interests in mind but - like me - he's looking out for himself. I think of my fundamental distrust as a survival skill, and being realistic. In order to become sane, I had to put myself in a position where trusting people wasn't an absolute requirement. To where the inevitable letdown - sooner or later - would not be the end of the world.
Someone said "Trust God, Love People". I can love people I don't trust. Which is, well, everybody. In terms of looking out for me, there is only God. Maybe today God will work through people to give me what I need, but that doesn't mean I should place my dependence on those same people next time around.
So I started out with experience and ended up with trust. Tough subject. But I think a person's trust, or lack thereof, is almost totally derived from experience - subjective as it may be. And variable as it may be... certainly we know people who grew up in the same family, same parents, same environment - and one sibling will be trusting of people, parents, authority - the other will be vehemently distrustful. It's not the parents or the environment... it's the individual... and how their experience works.
I have only broached this topic in an AA meeting one time, over 18 years ago. My experience then told me it probably wasn't a good idea to do it again, so I never did... but what the heck. That was then, this is now. I wonder where this will go?
Barisax said ...."But I think a person's trust, or lack thereof, is almost totally derived from experience - subjective as it may be. And variable as it may be... certainly we know people who grew up in the same family, same parents, same environment - and one sibling will be trusting of people, parents, authority - the other will be vehemently distrustful. It's not the parents or the environment... it's the individual... and how their experience works."
This is the part of your post that stuck out the most to me, I guess because I am that person. The one who grew up with a bunch of siblings in the same house with the same parents, yet to know us, you wouldn't believe it. Even when we talk about our childhood, we tell each other, "Did we live in the same house? Grow up with the same parents? That is not how I remeber my life at the time" So, I think you're right on this, that our lives, at least mine, has been shaped by my experiences. And it continues to be so.
I also like what you said about "Trust God, Love People" AA has taught me to love people I do not know, and people I do not trust. But I do want for them that which I have found in my life, that if I can learn to trust the God of my understanding, under any and all circumstances, then I will be ok. He/She/It has always loved me, has always been there, even when I did not know. Especially when I did not know. Peace
__________________
I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
I hear people in AA sometimes say "It's hard for me to trust people" and then they go on to say that is why they don't have a sponsor or work the steps. To that end, when we come into AA, we really need to take a flying leap and trust our sponsor. At the very least trust that the sponsor knows better how to stay sober.
Whenever I hear people talking about how badly they've been treated and how that left them with big "trust issues," my inner response (and sometimes outer) is "So? Do you wan't to keep your trust issues and stay disconnected from the world around you because you got hurt so bad?"
I think the worst thing that a person can do when their trust has been violated, is to never trust anyone again. That is depriving oneself of love and human connection out of fear.
Tis better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. I don't regret trusting and getting burned. It's made for a much more interesting life. Just my philosophy and I know I lean to the codependent side more than the isolating side.
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Yes - we 3 grew up in the same household but seem to have different experiences - I suppose it's our perception that's different. I'm the only alcoholic outta the 3 kids. My brother is a doc who researches addiction - ironically. My sister is a normie dedicating her life to the national guards. I'm the alcoholic who remembers all the bad stuff. They had a fine childhood... I had a crappy one... all at the same time.
Now I get to see it different because of working the steps, and this program, and I can let go, let God - take the leap like Mark says, with all sorts of things and people pertaining to trust, because I want to change everything. The old me sucked. My perception of the world was distorted, and now I'm learning a different way to look at everything - THANK GOD!
__________________
Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
We have a common problem and a common solution, but we don't have common stories so our experience is bound to be different. I have never had much trouble with trust as my sponsor taught me early on that people have "feet of clay". I had a lot to learn about forgiveness though. In dealing with my day to day issues, I recognise that he consistantly guided me to look to my higher power (God) for the answers. It turns out Dr Bob was right, my heavenly Father has never let me down.
My experience, based also on observation and reading, is that "trust" issues are often a smoke screen for "control" (ego, fear) issues. I will not allow you to know all about me because I cannot control how you would react, you may think less of me, you may reject me if you knew. I recall that feeling in the time before I began the 4th step, it's a lonely place to be.
I once heard a suggestion about filtering our experience through the Big Book, and while my experience may be different to yours, when so filtered, we have a great deal in common.
I thought about this for awhile. The best thing I could come up with is that I just try to make good decisions based on my experiences. Of course it is foolish to fully trust everyone and everything....."God gave us brains to use".
One thing I have learned is to live with my decisions, If I make a decision to trust someone and get burned, I don't blame them or get resentful, like Mike said, many have "clay feet", I own my decision. If someone needs a loan of money and for some reason I give it to them, I make sure it's a amount that won't cost a friendship or a resentment if I don't get it back.
I'm lucky to have some people in my life that I trust 100% of some others are questionable. When I first got sober I wanted everyone to start trusting me right away, but like most new people all they had to work with was a crappy track record....so we had to rebuild trust one day at a time.
Whether in business or personal life, the common wisdom is to try and make rational decisions based on past history/experience. If my car mechanic has always done good work at a fair price, I trust him. If you go to the bank and you're credit score shows you don't pay back loans....guess what, they don't trust to loan you money.
Of course it would be sad going though life as a crazy paranoid, so I like to have a general faith in mankind. Most of use drive on the roads, what reason do I have to believe that others will stay on their side of the road? I don't know them, but I have found it to be a reasonable risk, plus it might be even less safe to walk
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Two people can have the same experience and have totally different meanings to them. This doesnt mean either is wrong. Their prior experiences have made them to be who they are today. Take the addict and a non-alcoholic, they see a person down on their luck, bottle in hand and not in a very good physical condition. The non- alcoholic may think why cant people like that do something for themselves. The alcoholic would think I can talk to that person on their level. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. One of the promises.
I grew up with 7 siblings I was the middle child. Any of the experiences we share are viewed differently. Usually better for them than for me. But all my experiences have made me who I am today. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. Another of the promises.
On the trust issue I am more trusting of people today in many ways than I had been in the past. With me trust isnt earned it is lost. I start out trusting people to a limit. I will say anything in a meeting or to a suffering alcoholic. Others I need to know better before I share everything. I used to bring people home that I met putting on meetings at the jail. There would on occasion be something missing when they left but it didnt deter me from bringing home another. I did stop though when I got custody of my kids. I can trust but I also need to be responsible. Im with Rob84 on the money issue.
How's it going? It's been a while my friend. I'm doing fine, how about you? May I also commend you on starting this thread; it's certainly been a delight to read. Keep them coming, okay.
My experiences thus far have been truly amazing. From the first days in sobriety until now, my life has taken on new meaning. And it's all because of this wonderful program called A.A. I have a sober network (also) that deserves a lot of the credit. If it wasn't for their ongoing support I'd probably be lost right about now. So thank you A.A. and my close sober allies, it's been a privilege knowing you since day 1.
My mental and physical well being was tested early on but my fate was never in doubt. Although our addictions may have a mind of their own -sometimes, sobriety does not. So it's important then to make the most of these opportunities whenever I possibly can. If I choose not to, then we all know what can happen from there. I must make sobriety my utmost priority every day, without question. It's the only sober principle that works for me.
The sober reality to all this is an experience in and of itself, but it need not overwhelm us. The support we get from other 'sober' alcoholics is the key element towards lasting recovery. In recovery we share just about everything: From Stories to suggestions, insights to recommendations; we all in this together. So we need not travel this road alone. It's only through this sober portal that alcoholics like myself have found newness of life, and that's good enough even for me.
We don't need to repeat the same cycle of addiction over and over again, especially with all the resources at our disposal. This 'sobriety as our priority' concept can, if applied correctly, decrease our urge to drink as we progress through the A.A. program one step at a time. As we form new associations, establish even better connections and make sobriety our priority every day, we can eventually turn the tides of our addictions into a more purpose filled existence, full of hope and meaning. So keep moving ahead everyone, it can only get better from here.
Thanks again for this thread, Bari. It's been a welcome addition to my day.
~God Bless~
-- Edited by Mr_David on Sunday 14th of October 2012 03:28:42 AM
Its interesting that you mention childhoods being perspective based. I oftne wonder what it says about me when all I can remember is the bad stuff. I still have nightmares about being stuck in the house I grew up in and can't get out. I was the middle of 3. My half brother, the oldest, died a few years ago as an addict and alcoholic. Ironically he had started to get his life back in order and went back to college and his heart failed on him, from years of abuse. I never did get the whole story. My younger sister on the other hand remembers all the good stuff. She will often say to me, "remember when we did this.....or this happened wasn't fun or great or whatever...." And I never can remember. I was sexually abused when I was still in elementary school and into middle school. I do remember every word that was said, every smell and taste to this day but I can't remember the good stuff. I wish I could. But I wonder if thats because I am a negative person? Do I dwell on the negative stuff too often even still? I really should look at that and try to fix that if its the case. My sister didn't have it prefect either, she had to be physically taken from my mother when she was in middle school because my mother got her hooked on cocaine and crack when she was like 13 or 14.......YET, she still remembers the good stuff. Why is that. Is it additude that determines out memory?
WOW ... Deep subject ... I'll have to wait til I'm in a better environment to reply ... (at my son's house on his computer ... lots of distractions around ...)
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
