I came in late to the "Dated" thread, so I thought I'd start a new one. Someone there mentioned AA being used as "talk therapy" and thus watering down the program.
I don't know if I agree that having discussion meetings waters down AA. I've always been a talker. I've been to therapists - although oddly enough, never while I was drinking. I went to a psychiatrist when I was a kid, only to discover alcohol aleviated the need for the psychiatrist Then some years sober, I sought a psychologist while I was going through my divorce.
But TBQH, AA is one place where I can talk without being interrupted. I think I've been cut off twice in 23 years. Whether I'm bitching about a problem, sharing my resentments, sharing my experience, telling a funny story, or whatever - I have the floor for a few minutes without being challenged. I guess that's NOT talk therapy, because in my experiences with therapists - both individual and group - I was constantly being cut off and challenged. I didn't realize how prevalent this was until I went to group therapy after some time in AA, and got shot down. Not during a long ramble mind you... in the middle of my intro, my "why am I here" statement. I'm sure the therapist was trying to keep me focused on her agenda. I think she was just being flat out fucking rude. I didn't quit that group, I stuck with it for several years. And on more than one occasion, I was able to state my purpose for being there: it went against my grain, it went against my nature - it was hard. Therefore, it was a thing worth doing. Staying sober runs against my grain too. Unlike AA, the group therapy ran in a circular pattern. More than once I made the verbal observation that I didn't see recovery happening, just a group of people circling the drain of whatever their issues were, emoting their traumas to sympathetic ears. Over and over. It was a great experience for me in tolerance and learning to listen... and it was harsh and honest feedback of how other people perceived me and my social interactions.
One promise that caught my attention at the very first reading at my first meeting was "We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us". That therapy group threw a spotlight on many of my situational akward traits... my tendency to talk too much, not pay attention to the other person to notice little cues as to whether they're still interested or paying attention, etc. Did it eliminated those flaws? No, but I know how to observe a lot better and I realize much sooner when I'm doing it again. I've adopted a different strategy for being cut off, which may not be exactly right but it beats what I had before which was to raise my voice and keep on trying to make my point. Now if somebody cuts me off, I just stop talking. I wait until someone prompts me to resume, and then I decide if I'm going to resume or not. Often it's not. I've learned at work when someone asks for my opinion, they want about 5% of my opinion, that's all.
It's important for my sanity to not be offended when I get cut off. I do find it ironic that in my job - where I'm compensated nicely for my expertise and experience - how little anyone pays attention to any of my ideas or suggestions. That used to bug the crap out of me, because I just KNEW that if they didn't listen to me, something would get screwed up down the road, and it would be my fault and I'd have to fix it. But most of the time people take responsibility for their decisions... including a decision not to listen to me I have to stop myself from saying I told you so.
Anyway.... I realize this MIP board isn't an AA meeting, but it's kind of a form of talk therapy. Nobody ever got cut off typing an email. You can say anything you want once I post it, but I will at least be able to finish my thought before I click send. Talk therapy isn't evil, as long as it's sharing ESH and doesn't get mired in a swirling drain of resentments. That rarely happens in an AA meeting. There's almost always someone who can and will turn the discussion toward recovery.
In my therapy group I was considered narcissistic for talking only about my own experience, and not giving advice or challenges to any of the other group members. But that's what has worked for me in AA. And Alanon. And it's all I'm qualified to talk about.
So I don't know if AA discussion meetings could be called "talk therapy" or not. Certainly it's talking, and at least for me, it's theraputic. Certainly there are people who use it more like a conventional therapy group. If the main value to this is simply hearing onself talk - to clarify things in your own mind - then it could work either way. But I think folks who expect an AA meeting to work like a therapy group are going to be disappointed. In my case, I'm very glad it doesn't work like a therapy group. I quit therapy 15 years ago... I'm still in AA.
Yeah - I get what you're saying completely. This is a place where growth opportunity in listening, and not just thinking about what you're going to say next, while half hearing - can really get polished.
Since I've learned there is absolutely nothing I can or should do to shut someone up during maybe the only time they have all day to talk about what they need to - it is nothing but my absolute pleasure to let them. One time, I cried and bellowed through a share (it was during my 1st week back) and no one shut me up. I just stay grateful for that.
We're all right where we're suppose to be. And just as I've been reading the past few days - these are growth opportunities in the raw.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
LOL... I've certainly done plenty of thinking what I'm going to say and how profound it's going to be. Having a home group will temper that behavior because after a while it's pretty hard to say anything new. Anymore I listen intently if someone is obviously hurting. I used to think I was some kind of voyeur because I got so much out of hearing people share their pain.... or it was just my way of saying huh, I'm not THAT bad. But really, I appreciate it because it reminds me of what I am. There's no better reminder, even when my own memories get a little polished, and the specifics of the pain are dulled by time. Invariably in the hurting person's venting, there's something I hear that says oh yeah, I DO remember being like that.
When I was going through my divorce... sober... I used to wonder why I bothered to whine about it at meetings. Nobody had anything to offer me, least of all the ladies... LOL. Occasionally I'd get bitched at for dwelling on the topic of relationships and resentments. Again. But something happened during what really was the worst time in my sobriety. I stayed sober. Could I have stayed sober without being a miserable whining little bitch? Maybe. But I did stay sober, and nobody kicked me out of AA. I didn't drink, and I didn't kill myself. I believed this too shall pass even while I cursed every minute. My friends don't hold it against me today. Being cut off, shushed, may have made the meeting go a little smoother, but I don't think it would have been helpful to me. Some times I need a kick in the ass, and some times I'm just one kick from going off the cliff. It *is* up to me to feel my way around to what I need... and instinctively avoid what I don't. I learned real fast not to talk about relationships with certain people (like... my sponsor).
Sometimes, very bluntly, I just have to remind myself: what's more painful, hearing someone repeat themselves for 10 minutes about how they don't like someone at work or how their holiday didn't go the way they wanted, or waking up tomorrow having gone for just one beer?
That's a reminder for me to check if *I'm* working the program, not them. Because, if I don't, I will someday say to myself, "beer's better". Any real alkie will.
I get where you are coming from Bari, I really do. The A.A. message has way too many voices for just one person. That's why we should value each and every moment we share. But it's not always an easy task given all the added drama. I think the A.A. message (overall) is more important than just one man's story. But, it's only one man's opinion. It's really not about me anyway, which is something all of us need to learn -and that includes old timers and newbie's alike. We should never convolute the A.A. message at the expense of others; that would be counterproductive. I just hope others will understand.
-- Edited by Mr_David on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 02:50:32 AM
For me it's not only simple, it's spelled out in The Traditions:
If I am talking about my problems, I am adding to "The Problem", if I talk about Solution, I am adding to "The Solution"
5.Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purposethat of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
How did I navigate this ______fill in the blank________ today without drinking?
How have I grown?
How have I learned to handle success? (50x more deadly then failure to alcoholics IMO)
I share my experience, strength, and hope, I tried this and it didn't work, I tried this and it did, and today I learned _________.
For me Sobriety encompasses Spiritual, Mental, and Emotional growth, I haven't talked about actually drinking in a meeting for a few years, only when I'm asked to be a speaker actually, I share things about my spiritual, mental, and emotional growth as a direct result of practicing these principals, if it's not AA why talk about it in an AA meeting?
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
When I first came to the rooms, things like 'traditions', "problems and solutions" meant so little to me. All I knew was that I hurt, that I was dying, and if verbal diarrhia was the only way to purge myself, then I went for it. Today, I can go to a step study, a traditions study, or an open meeting. If someone else isn't purging themselves of their pain, then I don't know what I'd be able to respond to. There are times, even today, that the pain about something may be just great enough that I will share it in a meeting if I find myself past a point of dealing, and that happens to all of us in some circumstances. I need to know it's safe to share my heart with the ones I trust around the tables. Pain doesn't always present itself when I'm near the phone, or sitting at a sponsors. Sometimes, it is just there. And sitting around the table with the people that have seen me at my best and at my worst is where I'll share it if I need to. Whatever it takes.
I have to say I'm pretty much in LinBada's corner on this one, although I do have to be tolerant if someone has a difficult situation that they need to get off their chest, but if they have some time sober they need to follow up the issue with what tools they are using to get back into the solutiuon and relate back to the topic if possible.
ie: Came to a meeting, talked to sponsor or another AA, prayer and meditation, turn it over to God, got out of self etc
I try to be tolerant of very new people, sometimes the fact they are sharing is a step in the right direction....even though it is usually just about the problem.
So although we might bring up current or past personal experiences regarding a topic, we need to relate back to tools/solutions we used/need to use to stay sober and maintain a spiritual condition. Keeping in mind our primary purpose.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
When I went to the noon meeting every day during my 90x90 - I cried about my problems (literally) for about 2 weeks or so. Then I could start just TALKING about my problems. Then my problems got less because everyone was SUPER helpful and offered me a smorgasbord of solutions to the exact problems I had - with very "tailored to my needs" solutions they learned in AA to try, my life got better pretty quick. Soon I was talking about how my life was getting better cuz I listened to some stuff even when I didn't want to.
Then I got it enough to start asking specific questions, and a real desire to learn as much as possible was fueled by the small promises starting to come true for me. Diligence in turning things over to a HP really started to work! My higher power started to transform. Now it was more than just AA as a whole - soon life, and the miracle it is, started to sprout up all around me, and inside of me. Now... for the first time in my life, I can have a little self respect, because I know I'm here just like you. We're in this together. I can love my neighbors and myself. There is no reason not to anymore.
And that's about where I am TODAY in a nutshell - BUT - it was all because when I was new, I heard some people talk about just how bad their drinking was. I NEEDED (me personally) to hear about some of the real crap that you did, so I could at least feel okay opening up to start crying my heart out, and grow from there. Now, again... that is just how it happened for me, and just me. Because of feeling that need, I try to mention at least a little (if I can remember to), about some of the ways that I drank, and some of the things that I did - IF there is a newcomer in the room. Someone who is still a bit quiet or meek like I was when I was still so full of shame and couldn't open up anywhere but here on this board.
But that's just how I do it. And this is just a reflection of my short sobriety, and what MY higher power looks like. Never for a second, should you think it has to be yours.
If I can get it through my head that we are all right where we are suppose to be, I don't get to say there is a right way and a wrong way. I just get to learn, grow and appreciate all of it.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Tuesday 9th of October 2012 10:58:00 AM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I think it's entirely appropriate to ask for help at a meeting no matter how much time you have, but ESPECIALLY for newcomers to ask for help.
I think it's entirely inappropriate for anyone to hold the meeting hostage with a blow by blow description of the tawdry details of their delusional little life and their make believe problems and very real resentments, lol, that's why God invented your "support group" and sponsor, and that's why God invented the steps lolol
I think it's entirely appropriate to gently teach newcomers the Traditions and what meetings are and aren't for, if no one explains this to them they become old timers with no real clue how to behave in a meeting and they pass this ignorance down with vast authority, and what meetings aren't is group therapy, just because people today, and for the last few decades aren't taught that the secretaries job is to keep the meeting on target, and to learn how to properly manage the meeting, both for their own benefit (learn to gently but firmly enforce boundaries in an agreeable fashion) and the meetings, we have a generation of people deathly afraid of confrontation running meetings...correction, we have these meetings running people who have no idea what a boundary is nor even a nodding acquaintance of how to enforce one, just because ignorance and apathy have caused this doesn't make it right, and it only takes one good secretary to get a meeting back on track, it's not really even a big deal because the truth is AA is just practicing for life, learn to respect yourself and others and be a worker among workers and how to disagree without being disagreeable, how to enforce boundaries, these are all good things to learn in an AA meeting.
I was asked 3 questions when I started sharing when I was new:
1. Can you teach anyone in that room how to get drunk? 2. Can you teach anyone in that room how to stay sober? 3. Why are you sharing at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous? What is your purpose in sharing?
When you have something of value to add to the meeting you will know. when you can answer yes to two and have a valid reason for three, then by all means, share your three minutes of solution and or pain.
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I got to a place where there was nothing left to discuss...nothing left to debate...AA meetings are there to talk about what we're doing about the problem. The problem is worked out with our own work at home, that's if we've been willing to accept help through the 12 steps.
We encourage people to come to meetings when they don't know what else to do. For example, if one of my loved ones died....I would run to a meetings and I would share about it. I kind of learned that when really bad or good things happen to me, they do merit sharing cuz:
1: If it's bad, someone else will tell me how they got through something similar and didn't drink; and 2. If it's good, other people will gain hope that good things do happen if you stay sober long enough
Newcomers don't have the greatest internal compass for when to share and when not to. Many share too much or too little. I went to many newcomers meetings in my first 2 years. There was a lot of blabbing and drama and I even shared lots of my own when I was a newcomer. Then I wondered why at 2 years I was just sitting there and gaining nothing from those meetings. They were big group therapy sessions but I'm not gonna say it was a bad thing....I just choose not to go to newcomers meetings that much and, if I do, I mentally prepare myself to hear a lot of problem and little solution. Then I make it a point to try and talk to the newcomers afterwards to offer support and program tools I may have picked up.
Resenting that a meeting isn't what I want or that AA has gone in directions I might not like....that's still a resentment and it doesn't help me. I just find a meeting I like. You are FAR less likely to hear a person bitch about their boss in a step study meeting or speaker meeting than in open discussion meetings or beginners meetings.
I guess I see the program as trying to be more things than it used to be - it is sort of is splintering off into different types of meetings just like the church splintered off into different sects. It's all still good. I just find a meeting I like.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I had found that if I just brought an "air horn" (one of those things you hear at hockey games) with me, and someone really talked too long, I would just blast the air horn until they sat down. After that, I just needed to hold it up and point to it, and the discussion stayed on track. Sadly, at the next meeting, when I got up to talk, I got blasted by 23 horns every time I opened my mouth. So now we are back to the old stupid way of doing things. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
I had found that if I just brought an "air horn" (one of those things you hear at hockey games) with me, and someone really talked too long, I would just blast the air horn until they sat down. After that, I just needed to hold it up and point to it, and the discussion stayed on track. Sadly, at the next meeting, when I got up to talk, I got blasted by 23 horns every time I opened my mouth. So now we are back to the old stupid way of doing things.
Once I have a period of sobriety, it's easy to go to meetings and think boy, AA sure has changed. Perhaps it has, but mainly it's me that has changed. Somewhere my thoughts when I heard the word "newcomer" switched from "that's me" to "that's somebody else". As a newcomer, it's easy to think AA is a room full of oldtimers with a twinkle in their eye and pithy observations and no matter what you say they've heard it before... they've been there before. They seem unflappable... sober forever. And as a mid-timer, it's easy to think AA is a room full of whining newbies who don't work the program and just bitch about their problems over and over, they're full of excuses and petty grievances. You just know they will go out and drink as soon as they have the opportunity.
That same AA that got me sober then, keeps me sober now. And whatever judgment I make about the people in the rooms now, is just as likely to be wrong now as it was then.
I've had people tell me that they thought when I first came in, that I didn't have a chance. I was too scared, or too arrogant, or too intellectual. My bottom wasn't low enough, I was too young. I've thought the same thing about many newcomers... and there have been other newcomers that I would have bet the farm on, if I'd had a farm. I've been just as wrong as my own critics were. Who am I to pick who stays sober and who doesn't? For that matter, who am I to bang the gavel and say who can or can't talk in a meeting, what they can talk about, for how long?
I'm not being altruistic... far from it. It's in my own self interest to stay out of such things, because the minute I draw a line, form an opinion, make a judgment - I'm compelled to either defend or retreat - it's no longer about sobriety and recovery, it's about me and my opinion. I can't stop other people from going there... that's just another way of getting mired in the drama. My sobriety depends upon AA being there for me; in return I want to be there for AA. If I try to control others, or get sucked into the debate about right way vs. wrong way of doing AA, etc... I'm putting my relationship with the program at risk. Oh, I still have my opinions of people and of meetings... but I've tried my best not to let them dictate to me what meetings I should go to. I don't want any AA meeting to be "on my shit list". It might be the one I need someday to save my life. I've also discovered that once I pull out a piece of paper and title it "Shit List" it has a habit of filling up rapidly. If I were to start a shit list of AA people and meetings to avoid, I'd have to move to another country within a year... and start a fresh list there.
I dunno. I guess that's what tolerance means to me. AA has tolerated me at my worst, and that's my example.
I found myself humbled yesterday at a meeting. There were a couple of people, one new to the group and one a chronic relapser, who shared a couple of times each. They were not solution based shares or even problem based ones, more like ranting or talking to hear themselves talk kind of sessions. Also, a local street person came in and I think he was drunk as he shared. I found myself getting hot under the collar and wanted to control the meeting somehow. Instead, I just closed my eyes, took a breath, and remembered this wasn't about me, that I could get what I needed from this meeting if I was willing. After the meeting a friend came up and said he wished I had spoken on the day's topic because he knew it was something I had experience with. I told him that I wasn't able to speak from a place of love and compassion and it was better I just listened.
I thought about that for that rest of the day. It basically boiled down to if you don't have anything nice to say, or can't say what you have to say nicely...hush, child. I got what I needed from that meeting and was blessed enough to remember to be grateful for it.
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I think there's an invisible principle of living...if we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. Its a lovely sight, watching it work.
I thought about that for that rest of the day. It basically boiled down to if you don't have anything nice to say, or can't say what you have to say nicely...hush, child. I got what I needed from that meeting and was blessed enough to remember to be grateful for it.
I'd love to say that's my life philosophy but it's not. I say plenty of not-nice things every day in my business and general life dealings. But those things ARE about me. I adhere to that rule within the walls of AA because it is the best way I can reciprocate and give back what I was given. I don't want to say nobody ever said not-nice things to me, but they were few and far between, and sometimes they were what I was needing - like I've said before if I need an ass kicking, I know where to find a professional. Me, I'm not an ass kicker - professional or otherwise - within the walls of AA. If the drive thru puts mayonnaise on my sandwich in spite of me saying NO six times, it's not going to get me drunk... nor is marching back in the door to get my $4.49 back *or* a new sandwich. No question, I have a double standard when it comes to AA. Perhaps I'm not practicing the principles in all my affairs but.... if I choose to stand my ground out there, that's my choice and I have to live with the consequences (as well as the consequences of not standing my ground).
And AA has no shortage of blunt people when one is needed. Usually if I just keep my mouth shut, somebody's going to say what I was thinking anyway. And I'm off the hook I remember this one lady came to open beginner meetings week after week "for her son". The son of course, the alcoholic, was nowhere to be found. She talked about him on and on, which was interesting but... kind of repetitive. Finally someone said "Why don't you try Alanon?", and her response.. I kid you not was "Oh, he's tried Alanon". The other guy said - just like this, "no YOU go to Alanon!" and it brought the house down. I don't know if she went to Alanon or not, but she didn't come back any more to work her son's beginner program. I wouldn't have had the balls to say that in an open meeting. But outside of AA... in my work, whatever... that would be me most of the time.
Once I have a period of sobriety, it's easy to go to meetings and think boy, AA sure has changed. Perhaps it has, but mainly it's me that has changed. Somewhere my thoughts when I heard the word "newcomer" switched from "that's me" to "that's somebody else". As a newcomer, it's easy to think AA is a room full of oldtimers with a twinkle in their eye and pithy observations and no matter what you say they've heard it before... they've been there before. They seem unflappable... sober forever. And as a mid-timer, it's easy to think AA is a room full of whining newbies who don't work the program and just bitch about their problems over and over, they're full of excuses and petty grievances. You just know they will go out and drink as soon as they have the opportunity.
That same AA that got me sober then, keeps me sober now. And whatever judgment I make about the people in the rooms now, is just as likely to be wrong now as it was then.
I've had people tell me that they thought when I first came in, that I didn't have a chance. I was too scared, or too arrogant, or too intellectual. My bottom wasn't low enough, I was too young. I've thought the same thing about many newcomers... and there have been other newcomers that I would have bet the farm on, if I'd had a farm. I've been just as wrong as my own critics were. Who am I to pick who stays sober and who doesn't? For that matter, who am I to bang the gavel and say who can or can't talk in a meeting, what they can talk about, for how long?
I'm not being altruistic... far from it. It's in my own self interest to stay out of such things, because the minute I draw a line, form an opinion, make a judgment - I'm compelled to either defend or retreat - it's no longer about sobriety and recovery, it's about me and my opinion. I can't stop other people from going there... that's just another way of getting mired in the drama. My sobriety depends upon AA being there for me; in return I want to be there for AA. If I try to control others, or get sucked into the debate about right way vs. wrong way of doing AA, etc... I'm putting my relationship with the program at risk. Oh, I still have my opinions of people and of meetings... but I've tried my best not to let them dictate to me what meetings I should go to. I don't want any AA meeting to be "on my shit list". It might be the one I need someday to save my life. I've also discovered that once I pull out a piece of paper and title it "Shit List" it has a habit of filling up rapidly. If I were to start a shit list of AA people and meetings to avoid, I'd have to move to another country within a year... and start a fresh list there.
I dunno. I guess that's what tolerance means to me. AA has tolerated me at my worst, and that's my example.
Barisax
THAT is one of the best insights I have ever read on this board!
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Then some years sober, I sought a psychologist while I was going through my divorce.
I have to stop myself from saying I told you so.