I was at a meeting last night and a gentleman who picked up a 33 year chip said that the program that got him and kept him sober is the same program that got the person who picked up a one year chip sober. It made me think about how timeless AA truly is. By the way, the person who picked up the one year chip was me and from my experience, AA not only has a solution to my alcohol problem, it has provided me with the steps to living a life that is happy, joyous and free. It really does work, if you work it. :)

What vixen said. Congrats on the one year vixen.. also i think, not only because i see it but because i have done it, people usuly bad mouth something that they fail at or just because someone else bad mouths something. Come on in, pull up a chair and see what happens. You can always have all your pain back at anytime you want if you dont like what we have. And as for brain washing, when i made it here my brain neede washing. Keep coming back and welcome to the board.

I spent some time just as you - many hours reading online = all about the cult theory, the brainwashing, the Bill Wilson being crazy and awful, the religious stuff, all of it...

Then I began to wonder. Why are all these people putting so much time in to talking me out of AA. I never once felt like anyone was trying to HELP me. I began to wonder what kind of obsessed weird people would spend SO much time, and put SO much effort into this stuff! Could they be people with a lot of resentments... a lot of hate... a lot of discouraged souls - dwelling - reliving pain - feeling pitiful? Hmmm, then I realized, I was doing the same thing if so. Why was I looking to talk myself out of something so obviously harmless. A roomful of people who come to share and care. Literally - a helping hand whenever I need one. Hmmmm... I had to look within.

What was I scared of? What did I think I had to be so careful of? 13th stepping? Seriously? As if I was so worried about someone hitting on me? I went to bars - I was hit on all the time - clearly I'm not afraid of that. Why would I be SO afraid if it happened in AA? AA is no different than your usual trip to Walmart. You MIGHT get hit on. You MIGHT see happy people - sad people - fat people - toothless people - disabled people - short people - one legged people - bald people - beautiful people - smart people - doctors - farmers - teachers - factory workers - etc etc.

I'm not afraid to go to Walmart. I'm not afraid of a variety of people.

So what was I REALLY afraid of?

I was afraid to quit drinking.

If someone would tell me that walmart would be a place to consider the end of my alcohol use - I would be afraid of that, and look for reasons and excuses to not go there too.

Finally, I had to make a decision to try something different than DRINKING and MISERY.

I had to decide to go where people learned how to do that. I had to surrender, and be open to going where the help was. That meant I had to have a desire to stop drinking. And that was all AA really asked of me - or really offered a solution for.

Thanks for reminding me - and thanks for posting here. Welcome to MIP - keep coming back!

Wow, I appreciate everyone's response.  They have been helpful.  I am vulnerable (euphemism for impressionable) right now so I am just trying to be cautious; look around.  Someone told me that my best thinking is my problem.  I beg to differ with that canned statement, I'd say its my worst thinking.  My best thinking got me into recovery with motivation to seek more than abstinence.  I don't agree with everything I hear in AA, but must admit, most is spot on.  The negative rantings online actually disappointed me because I am enjoying AA.  Regardless of my condition when I pull up that chair, I normally leave feeling better; sometimes high on air!  Not what I experienced last time around (when I was 24), maybe age has weakened my ego or tuned my ears. 

thanks for letting me share...

Sounds like you a) already know what you believe; and b) stumbled upon Orange Papers and those other sites. Those sites are full of people who either have very little experience with AA, went to AA but could not overcome resentment, or never actually worked the entire program of recovery as outlined in the Big Book. It's not their fault. We got away from the Big Book decades ago so people like you and me who came into AA years ago did not benefit from it. I was able to hang on barely until recently when i realized what I was in AA to do. You re probably hearing that AA is changing now, we're beginning to understand exactly where the program of recovery is, and how to do it.  (thank God).

slakr wrote:

---

I am new in recovery, 60 days, and have been doing my research in regard to AA.  There are lots of people who have negative things to say about the fellowship: sites dedicated to alternate methods, leaving AA, etc...  I stayed clean and sober for 13 years on my own, after leaving AA only 4 months in, so other methods claiming sure will power is enough, won't work for me.  I have read material that suggests the steps are very negative and increase shame and guilt within the practitioner.  Meetings include 13th stepping and other less than desirable practices.  

With that said, my personal experience is quite different.  I wasn't all that happy during "my will 13 year clean time" and I eventually relapsed; badly.  For me, something is different this time around, maybe its because I have more to loose.  I accumulated many wonderful things during that 13 years and am lucky my relapse didn't take any of it away.  So, I am listening this time and things make more sense.  However, I am concerned about some of the things I have read and am wondering what others think.  I've read lots of people claiming AA is a cult.  I don't see that personally; and I am pretty new so I wouldn't be brainwashed yet :)  

Being sober is very important to me, more so is being happy and interested in others; I tend to isolate and can be quite selfish.  So, I am trying to navigate all of this information between what sworms of people seem to think outside the program (some were long time members), what I really want for myself and what I have already experienced (which has all been rather positive).

---

 

Great, honest questions, slakr. One of the great AA aphorisms is "Keep it Simple."

AA has worked for me. I just try and do the things suggested to the best of my ability, which includges getting to meetings. I don't get too worked up about AA things, either way.

In meetings, I've met a few -- a very, very few, like less than ten -- who I'm afraid, can only be described as suffering from complex mental health issues could be seen as acting like what cult members act like who will readily call a room full of people idiots and how nobody else knows how to do AA the real way (but they do), how everyone else is killing newcomers, the usual nutty stuff. Nobody, myself included, pays them very much attention other perhaps filing away tips on how not to share at a meeting and relief that however bad things may be, at least we don't dwell in their skulls. I assume that every organisation of humans has those folks, be they churches, Rotary clubs or bowling teams.

Steve

slakr wrote:

---

Wow, I appreciate everyone's response.  They have been helpful.  I am vulnerable (euphemism for impressionable) right now so I am just trying to be cautious; look around.  Someone told me that my best thinking is my problem.  I beg to differ with that canned statement, I'd say its my worst thinking.  My best thinking got me into recovery with motivation to seek more than abstinence.  I don't agree with everything I hear in AA, but must admit, most is spot on.  The negative rantings online actually disappointed me because I am enjoying AA.  Regardless of my condition when I pull up that chair, I normally leave feeling better; sometimes high on air!  Not what I experienced last time around (when I was 24), maybe age has weakened my ego or tuned my ears. 

thanks for letting me share...

---

 hi slakr, welcome.  my personal experience is i will never agree with everything i hear in AA.  i do hear so much good stuff though that i can take what i need and leave the rest.  you said you weren't happy during your 13 years of being "clean".  why don't you try out the steps and see what it feels like to really get into recovery.

Hi Slakr,

Welcome to the MIP forum. I've been sober a lot of years. I love AA and I know it works for those who can be Honest openminded and willing.

We have a reunion every few years for my first homegroup, it was a Sat night meeting with mostly younger people 14 to 28 years old started in the early 80's. We are all in the 40 to 55 age range now many with 25-35 years sober, talk about a spiritual experience....can't tell me AA doesn't work.

It's attraction not promotion, we have no monopoly on God or sobriety, if you don't want it of aren't ready or want to do it some other way, that is fine.

I hear a lot about the "material that suggests the steps are very negative and increase shame and guilt within the practitioner".

Getting rid of shame and guilt is a inside job,  I can tell you just burying it or living with it will not take it away.  Working the steps one day at a time will take it away and we won't be walking around as a dry drunk who doesn't like himself and wishes he can drink.

The self searching and leveling of our pride is not easy,  that's why we work the 3d step first.  Most of us have worked through the steps by the first year or so.....so what have I learned that has kept me sober the last 27 yrs?>>>>

How to countinue to take self inventory in my actions and relations with others,  trying to be a person of character who acts in accordance with their values.  Got over the shame and guilt a long time ago,  now I just work to help others do the same.

Thanks,  Rob

Hi Slakr,

Good to hear you are past the presentation issues and ready to move forward. True life change in the case of true alcoholics and other addictions is a very difficult thing, from my experience we need to honestly diagnose ourselves "alcoholic" for surrender and change to occur.

For me a weight was lifted when I took the first step and quit fighting it, I was free and the rest of the steps appeared as a road to a brighter future.....anyway there are some valid points that you make above.

Best thing to do is not think too much, work the steps to the best of your ability with a sponsor, get sober a year or two and start working with others. Please PM me if I can help in any way in the future.

Rob

odat wrote:

---

Sounds like you a) already know what you believe; and b) stumbled upon Orange Papers and those other sites. Those sites are full of people who either have very little experience with AA, went to AA but could not overcome resentment, or never actually worked the entire program of recovery as outlined in the Big Book. It's not their fault. We got away from the Big Book decades ago so people like you and me who came into AA years ago did not benefit from it. I was able to hang on barely until recently when i realized what I was in AA to do. You re probably hearing that AA is changing now, we're beginning to understand exactly where the program of recovery is, and how to do it.  (thank God).

---

Couldn't agree more ODAT, that was my experience too. The fact is that the program as written by the first 100 that was so successful, and the program as practiced/taught in the fellowship today, can sometimes be two different things. Much of the criticism of AA has been deserved. Thankfully the fellowship seems to be changing and getting back on message and back within it's traditions.

I recently attended a public meeting on alcohol and family violence where Professor Doug Selman, an expert in alcoholism and head of Psychiatry at Otago Medical School gave us an update  on the latest medical thinking on alcoholism. Far from AA being outdated he said "It turns out AA was right all along" He also said, and i am praphrasing here, that AA was the most sucessful self help (unfortunate choice of words) program for any disease ever in  the history of the world. MRI and CT scanning along with genetic research now shows clearly that alcholism is a brain disease with approximately 50% genetic and 50% environmental cause. That is to say that the genes must be present but may or may not be switched on by environmental factors. Further he stated that it appeared a "conversion experience" (echoes of Carl Jung's talk with Roland and the Doctor's Opinion) was essential to bring about permanent recovery in this type of alcoholic. Prof Selman also said they were hopeful of finding a medical (chemical) means of inducing a conversion experience, which in effect meant they were back to about 1966 in terms of medical progress and at that time they were experimenting with LSD. They had conducted some trials with two groups or types of alcoholics, the serious and the incredibly serious and hopeless and had a measure of success with the less serious group. But the other group to which I belong, just continued getting worse.

He acknowledged the concept (as he would think of it) of the spiritual experience but graciously stated that AA was the established expert in this area.

So there you have it. The latest medical thinking is that alcoholism is a genetic disease which can be dealt with through a conversion experience or psychic change, which at the present point in time, can best be accomplished by a spiritual experience brought about through the 12 steps of AA.

God bless,

MikeH.

On point as usual Mike Flynn!

Welcome back!

odat wrote:

---

When the 12 & 12 was written we tossed aside the Big Book (around the late 50s). That was the biggest problem. We alcoholics like a shiny new penny and we often want an easier softer way.
And voila! A watered down program and fellowship of meetings.

---

 The 12 & 12 worked well for me.  I don't get the "first 164 page" folks.  Exactly what is inferior about the 12 & 12?   Personally I thought the book went into much greater detail, was more linear, and heck a lot more popular in study groups, at least in the Washington DC metro area, which is probably as big as a dozen or so mid west states combined, in terms of population.  All this "doing it the correct way"  reminds me of the exclusivity in religions that has killed 100's of millions of people.  

The wonderful thing about AA groups is their freedom to be autonomous.  If a group wants to be "fundementalists" they can do so however they like in their own little group, instead creating a whole lot of descention  (and hate really)  telling people that they aren't really sober or in AA or whatever.  

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Thursday 4th of October 2012 09:01:08 AM

I waited for my feelings on this to gel before replying to this. Deep down, I think that alcoholics are neurotic and cynical about directions and rigid requirements. I know that I saw the 12 steps this way for the first two years and was reluctant, to my own detriment, to follow the successful processes of others, to receive the benefits of the program, sobriety, serenity. Of course I floundered for those two years, and on more than one occasion I questioned the program. When I finally "surrendered" after putting myself in a position where sobriety was the only way out, I acquired the gifts of desperation and willingness that lead me to eagerly work the steps with a sponsor, in the prescribed manner. The results, and the affects on my whole life where greater than I could've even imagined. With all that said, the program worked perfectly for me, once I committed to it. And from that perspective I wouldn't change a thing. But of course, I succeeded because of it, albeit I keep coming back, time after time, after dozens of relapses, and probably only because I saw that AA worked for my Mother, who is 14 years ahead of me.

On the other hand, like the statistics show and many others have pointed out, AA has lost a lot of it's effectiveness since the "original 100" members got sober, due to a lot of factors. And imho, not just because AA has drifted away from it's strict adherence to the original text. This is a broad topic, but, once again, imo, society has changed tremendously. Spirituality, the bedrock of our program, has severe challenges in part due to a large portion of society moving away from religion, for various reasons. In the 1930's, probably 80% of the US population were christians, 90% practiced some form of religion, and the majority attended worship services regularly. Those numbers are probably half that today, and atheism has grown by several thousand percent. AA does a fair job of helping non-believers through the door, but could probably do a better job, once again, imo.

rrib wrote:

---

I guess I have a love/hate relationship with A.A. too.

But it worked for me ... thats the main thing.

---

 

I have 'mixed' emotions about being in AA ... ... ... ... ... 'JOY & HAPPINESS'

 

AND I agree 100% with Dean here ... in the 50's our national 'moral' ethics were very 'Good Book' oriented ... 

Today? ... ... ... Marriage is nearly a thing of the past, as is church going ... and the list of our moral decay issues is much broader ...

 ... ... We will pay for this as a nation in a variety of ways, coming soon I'm afraid ... glad I'm 60 ... not sure I like where this century is headed ... 

Of COURSE you'd agree with me 0%...LOL!

We're not talking about the sad state of the nation. We're talking about the watering down of AA.

And it happened exactly the way I said it did.

I've learned more - deeply - truly - here in this room, than any other. That's a fact. Thank you.

My apologies if the caps sound like shouting...underlining doesn't work on responses.

When I wanted to know what the real purpose of the 12 & 12 was, I read the Forward. I looked up words as I had been taught in the Big Book process because Bill was so well-educated in literature that he used actual dictionary definitions of words rather than conversational usage of them . In the Forward, the word, "explicit" especially needs to be looked up. We should all want to find the answers for ourselves...there are too many opinions out there.

I can tell you what I have learned if it helps...

The 12 & 12 has no directions as to how to actually DO any of the steps. It was written in the early '50s because Bill realized by then that we needed a set of rules for the fellowship (Traditions) but we wouldn't look at his rules because we don't like rules. Finally Bill decided he would put them in a book and write a series of short essays ABOUT the steps to attract us to these rules.

It worked.

In Bill's essays in the 12 & 12 he gives us additional help TO DO the program of recovery in the Big Book. Some look at it during the Big Book process, some look at it after. It has excellent information and has been crucial to my recovery.

The program of recovery has always been, and will always be, in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The naked eye cannot see it very well, a sponsor who really knows the work is needed, even to show us where each step begins and ends. It came out the way it did with God and Bill's hand, perfect and beautiful...we lost the key to unlock it years ago.

I have found that a good healthy open mind is a great and necessary asset to recovery.

I agree with you about how singleness of purpose can get sticky....basically it's all the same disease no matter what people use because it roots in human nature and the spiritual experience seems to work for all. I am what psychiatrists might call a polysubstance abuser. Booze, coke, pot, cigarettes, coffee, etc. The program of recovery in the Big Book is crossing into other fellowships now. On Monday night I was at an Alanon Big Book study. In the next 10 years we will see this explode even more.

But my wishes aside there are opinions and then there are facts...AA was always meant to be there forever for the alcoholic who suffers so I respect that and I understand it. I no longer identify as anything other than an alcoholic when I'm in an AA meeting. I feel it wouldn't have been fair for me to come along after 65 or 75 years with my coffee and pot problem and try to change it to the way I want it... :)

I don't get that odat. How do you figure?

By the time we get to Step 10 we are in the realm of the Spirit and we know just what that means! Truth (where I found God by turning around my resentments, fears, and sex conduct issues) is so beautifully reliable!!

odat wrote:

---

When the 12 & 12 was written we tossed aside the Big Book (around the late 50s). That was the biggest problem. We alcoholics like a shiny new penny and we often want an easier softer way.
Then treatment centers started telling drug addicts to go to AA and they told everyone they could use AA as talk therapy.

And voila! A watered down program and fellowship of meetings.

---

Speaking of truth, quoted for truth! For a bit there in this Fellowship, I was firmly in the AA as talk therapy mode, the"I just need to share and talk this out" in meetings schtick. Thankfully, my sponsor helped put me back on the path before I hit the juice again. Folks in my meetings were nice: they never told me to shut up. lol

Others, I know, are not so lucky and wind up getting drunk. Some off them have come right back in and worked the program as in the Book. Others, well, they cite the failure of "group" to keep them sober as evidence that AA doesn't work. Easier, softer way and all that.

If sharing in meetings about my day and who was pissing me off at work or how I didn't get the radio codes numbers was all I needed to stay sober, then I wouldn't need this program, I could just do group therapy somewhere and stay sober. 

Whenever I hear some guy sharing about his day and not mention alcohol once: I need to remember, I did that and if I do that again and kept doing that, I am probably going to drink again, because that is one primo indicator that I am not working the 12 steps as they suggest in the book.

Steve

Although - I do still believe in evolution. A little differently than before, because now God is evolving for me too. I have a lot to learn, so that's cool. Exciting. Thanks for the clarification : )

I think when it comes to spiritual principals, "The" is a dangerous word, "The" Truth, "The" Program, "The" Jesus, "The" Buddha,  "The"  Answer,  "The"  Right Religion,  "The"  God etc., my truth may not be yours, and vice versa, Bill is VERY explicit in The Big Book, we don't have a monopoly on God, we just a way that works for us, and he talks about the realm of The Spirit being all inclusive, never exclusive.

After I had been around for a few years I started going to Joe and Charley Seminars every year, they mathematically laid out the Big Book in a way I think everyone should learn actually, it gave me great insight into AA, but it had one bad side effect, I then thought I knew the "Right" way to do AA, and so all these other people must be wrong, and I got very unhappy because everyone was "doing it wrong".

Now the truth is, if you are taking anything or anyone's inventory but your own, by definition you aren't "working the program", the Program stresses again and again that we take our own inventory, never the other person's, so here's Irony, here I am running around blathering about "watered down AA" and how everyone is doing it wrong when the truth of the matter is -by definition- I was doing the exact opposite of what the book had to say, taking other people's inventory, and having resentments, and frankly it doesn't really fit in with AA's "code", which is "Love and Tolerance of others is our code"....

What REALLY screwed me up was all these people who had "done it wrong" were walking around happy, joyous and free, and were far more well adjusted then me and all these other "doing it right" guys who ran around being the "AA Police" spending waaaay too much of our time talking about what was wrong with AA then what was right, bitching about all these people who weren't doing it right, the truth is eventually after a few years I drank, being one of the "doing it right" guys is just too much F'ing work, and yes I was going to 5 meetings a week, I had half a dozen sponsees and was on my fourth trip through the steps, I had commitments and I was in Service, it was just just too much pressure and I was miserable.

My God is My God, and My Truth is My Truth, they aren't necessarily yours, there are a LOT of paths up the mountain, mine isn't the only one, Intolerance is one of the most self destructive sins there are in my experience, now all that being said, if someone asks me to sponsor them I will sponsor them the way I was sponsored, directly out of The BB accompanied by the reading in the 12 x 12, because that's the way I know how to artificially create the spiritual awakening (or the personality change) required to recover from alcoholism, but it's certainly not the only way, just one that worked for me, all through History people have been having these spiritual awakenings, Bill just put a few things together to be able to create one by following a few simple steps, rules if you will.

Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it's for everyone, sure it's worked for millions of people, but then there are millions of Christians, and Christianity doesn't work for me, there are millions of Muslims, and Islam is not my way either, and there are millions of practicing Jews, but Judism isn't my cup of tea, although I have gleaned TONS of cool stuff from all three of these major Religions, including Sufism, Buddhism, Paganism, etc, even Buddha said two things which are pertinant:

"My teachings are like a raft to cross a stream, why carry the raft on your head after you cross it?"

"People with strong opinions just run around and bother other people"

Jesus said something a mote in my eye and a plank in your own

Gandhi said something about loving your Christ but being singularly unimpressed with his followers, as they were nothing like Christ

The first 164 pages are a guide to have a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism, and if you ask me for help, I'll walk you through that process, as I have dozens of other young men, I mean even cuss at you once or twice and possibly hit you upside the head with the book when you are exceptionally stupid, but I only do that if someone asked for my help and my opinion, me preaching my opinion to others who haven't asked for it is called being a fanatic, and I love what Winston Churchill said about them:

"A Fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and who won't change the subject"

The first 164 pages absolutely work, do the steps and miracles become commonplace, but they are by NO means the only way, or the only thing that work, they are just something that happened to work with "us" (Us and We in the Big Book are the people who have worked the steps and recovered from alcoholism, a hopeless condition of mind and body) but the moment I start cramming my opinion down someone's throat and saying they are wrong and taking their inventory, I am no longer doing it right, I have become an intolerant fanatic that has lost his code of love and tolerance of others and I am taking their inventory not my own.

This has caused me much grief over the years, and my "take your inventory meter" is always instantly poised, and it's never not poisonous for me

Let's look at step 10 again shall we?

 

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it

 

Doesn't say a word about taking anyone else's inventory nor does it talk about making them see the error of their ways nor making them admit they are wrong, that shit is the "anti program", and for me, harmful.

Anyone else can do whatever they want

 

Does AA work?

Absolutely

Is it dated?

Absolutely not

Are there other ways that work?

Absolutely

Do they work as well?

Not in my experience, but that makes it my experience, and my opinion, nothing more

The Book is laid out beautifully, this is what we did, if you want what we have do this like this and you will get this, each step has conditions, promises and a prayer, do this like this and get this, thank you God, and you needn't be a Christian to have it work.

It's one size fits all, and anyone who tries to force their garment on you is by definition, "doing it wrong"

-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Friday 5th of October 2012 11:33:23 AM

Slack R , I am 26 years sober , I have achieved this One day at a time .

My neurologist reckons "I should be dead , you certainly have been denied a lot of

medical treatment , BUT You Have Done all the right things" .

Cutting my story sideways , I was Mis-diagnosed after a near fatal industrial accident .

A couple of months later I was at my first AA meeting , a knew a few people ,

footballers , millionaires , one millionaire said He had been sober 22yrs , 10 in AA .

He said previously stopped on many occasions but could not stay stopped .

A university professor said he could stop , but could not stop from starting again .

During that Very 1st meeting people told me that to Keep MY Sobriety , WAS to Give

it away . Mate when I got here I was Mad , bad , clad & sad & at times my mood swigs

showed "all the above"    BUT  ,  You people accepted me as I was . I did Not identify

with Anything , there were No similarities for me . I just knew I had to Stop drinking .

Day ONE , I realised I had to Do more than put down my Last drink .

I waited over 2 years to hear the 1st line of my drinking story , I waited another 10yrs

to hear the 2nd line , BUT I hung around to hear it .

I Can NOT Thank You People enough & People around Australia & America where I have

been to meetings . WHY , Because YOU Gave me a Brand NEW Life , No , Not my old life .

Not my old life polished up .  A BRAND NEW LIFE .

I can Never repay what you have Freely Given me .

Yes even You Slack R. I Still Remember my last drink & I Never want to forget .

My 1st day of sobriety .

PLEASE Keep coming Back . I NEED You

Rick.

Thanks for your posts Rob, odat, Dean, and Rick ...

(Great clip Dean ... ... ... appropriate on so many levels ... Before AA, I couldn't handle the 'Truth' either ... just sayin' ...)

G.O.D. Good orderly direction. That's how my sponsor explained it to me. Always interchangeable - and always changing for me as I learn. This was a great learning thread for me, so thanks everyone.

Feeling enlightened Linababa - thanks for your post. I feel really comfortable with myself and where I am today - and I can say confidently, that who I am is good enough for me today - and I have no need to get back into the hamster wheel either.

Thanks Lin and Rick. Yes , we have no monopoly on God, merely a program that has worked for us?

Not to change the subject, but is this the longest thread in MIP history??