Alcoholic since conception

Neophyte · Senior Member

Alcoholic since conception

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Alcoholic since conception ?

Does it make a difference? ... ... ... We still came to have the freedom to choose ... if I was born allergic to nuts, would I still eat them? ... wouldn't I be insane or nuts to do so? ... my grand-daughter is allergic to nuts ... nearly died twice in childhood eating them ... she recoils from nuts whenever they're served at parties just as we in recovery should do with alcohol when it's brought into our presence ...

Alcohol will do nothing to hurt us ... as long as we choose not to drink it ... genetics can't tell us how to think ... we were given the ability to reason things out ...

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

I agree with Pappy, Neophyte. I might have been predisposed to alcoholism, but as far as drinking goes it's not always a given. My grandfather was an alcoholic, but my mother, well; she never touched the stuff -not even a drop. Yeah, you can say it skipped a generation and went right on to me -which may be true. But as far as genetics is concerned; it wasn't the cause of my drinking. It was my lack of self control. So there you have it...my reasoning -if it makes any sense. Great share though...

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Well, I believe we are predisposed to it genetically. I know that having PTSD means I had to have the right genetic make up - and then the right amount of "small trauma's" early in life. Then I had to have a big trauma (for me). So things had to work out just right, lots of things.

Being an alcoholic I feel is quite the same, although there isn't so much study or evidence that I know of. Maybe there is, but my guess is, I was probably born predisposed with the allergy, but the right set of circumstances had to come along for me to cross the line. First, I had to be born in a country where as a woman I would have access to excess alcohol and be allowed to drink it. Then I had to see other people drink a lot of it, I was quite scared of it on my own accord. Then I had to have a back injury, leaving me off work, and able to drink all day every day "for fun" while on "vacation". Etc etc. I mean, really - I believe I was born an alcoholic, but I don't believe I was born to suffer with it. I suffered through it because I was not born to appreciate life, be grateful for what I have or do the next right thing according to a belief in a higher power. I had to get really struck down to "get" all of that... and see everything as the gift it is. That's why I am an alcoholic. I could be wrong. Today that's how I see it.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Mission creep is the expansion of a project or mission beyond its original goals, often after initial successes.

Take AA. It was devised for alcoholics. Any and all alcoholics.

From the jump, its mission is to help alcoholics recover.

But if someone changes the classification of people who are alcoholic --to include some persons who don't actually drink, then they now come under the mission of AA.

This is bad for a number of reasons.

And, actually, pappy, it is very important what the definition of an alcoholic is. It is fundamental to theory, treatment and thought.

What do youse think, pappy, tasha? Can someone who never drinks be an alcoholic? Can someone be a heroin addict but never touch the drug?

-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 06:13:18 PM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

In the 1950s, after AA was clearly recognized as a positive and successful treatment for alcoholism, there were some questions about whether AA could be used to treat drug addicts (morphine, heroin and other drugs) in addition to the alcoholics for which AA was initially conceived. After all, AA had the good principles, program, ideas and track record. And Bill W. thought that "drug users and alcoholics happen to be first cousins of a sort." It would have been easy to justify the expansion of the AA program to absorb the pure druggies.

But Bill and other AA leaders thought about it long and hard and decided that changing the requirements to allow membership to addicts without a genuine alcoholic history would not be consistent with AA's first duty: to insure its survival. So, the fellowship decided to stay with the initial mission: help alcoholics recover. This is what we call our singleness of purpose and that strategic decision was one of the best ever made by AA.

It avoided the dreaded mission creep.

With the guidance of the SOP concept, AA focused on alcoholics for the next 50 years and that's pretty much where we are today--still focused solely on alcoholics (which sometimes includes people who are addicted to other substances).

-- Edited by Tanin on Wednesday 12th of September 2012 08:08:25 PM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

RE: Alcoholic since conception ???

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

RE: Alcoholic since conception

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

what's mission creep?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Tanin wrote:
Interesting question, pappy. One I've pondered for a while.
I would say that from a clinical and medical view, a non-drinker cannot be an alcoholic since the definitions of alcohol dependence, alcohol abuse, etc., require ingestion of alcohol.
From an AA point of view, people cannot be a member of AA unless they "suffer from alcoholism." They must have "a desire to stop drinking (alcohol)." Which a non-drinker cannot have, never having started. Thereby being ineligible to join AA.
I think when people talk about a non-drinker being alcoholic, it's, well, it's like mission creep...

I really haven't pondered this very much ... it's like the chicken or the egg coming first to me ... who gives a flying crap ... it is what it is ... either you're given to strong drink or not, in my book ... and yes Tanin ... only those who drink and want to quit are eligible for AA membership ...

Not sure I understand your "it's like a mission creep" analogy ... LOL ... could you explain what you meant to my two brain cells ? ... LMAO

Pappy

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Well, no - I didn't have PTSD, until I had the symptoms, even though I know that in order to have it, I must be genetically predisposed to it, and then also have a traumatic incident and smaller ones leading up to it. That is a very recent finding, and I'm guessing there is a lot we don't know about alcoholism on a genetic level. But I have never bothered to research it yet. My brother has filled me in a little. He researches addiction for a living... and is currently researching addiction in relation to impulsiveness. We will be able to have lots of discussions this Christmas finally. I never wanted to talk about it for some reason before ; ) Even when he became a full fledged doctor last year, I didn't say much. Another thing I need to ad to my list of amends.

I look at my son, and recognize immediately the "stinkin thinkin" that my daughter does not display in any way. My son takes after me... looks like me, thinks like me, talks like me, eats like me... and I am an alcoholic. He's 5.

My Daughter, is a miniature image of my husband, his parents comment on how similar her behavior is to my husbands as a child relentlessly... he is not an alcoholic, and I still sometimes wonder if she wasn't switched at birth she's so different than me, but then I see her next to her Dad, and I know she's in the right place.

My son chews his nails already - just like I did... has other things like biting his lip, that I did...

He is proud to tell you everything he HATED about his birthday party, and proceeds to feel sorry for himself... just exactly like I did. I don't think there was a birthday I didn't cry at from disappointment. My expectations have always led me to resentments... as far back as I can remember. I get to teach him how to work through that now. I didn't have a clue before coming to AA. No one taught me anything but how to sit in my room and clean it, if I acted that way.

So it will be interesting to see how this all plays out in life. I have joked many times, that I'm saving a spot for me son, on certain "bad" days with him... when I get to my meetings.

That hasn't crossed my mind for my daughter - she is happy and grateful and loving naturally. My son needs guidance in that area - but just like that love and goodness was always inside of me, it's certainly inside of him.

Today, I ponder it, and turn it over. I do the best I can for each of them as equally as I possibly can. They are both shining stars.

ANYWAY!

Simply - no, an alcoholic is someone who drinks alcohol. There are a plethora of names for those who display similar behaviors as us, but who do not or can not drink. We earn the privilege of membership in AA by taking it to a whole new level when we drink in excess and can not stop - and recovering in AA encompasses all those complexities... that only come after we begin to drown in the sea of alcohol.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I agree with you Tanin, and Tasha ... and thanks for explaining 'mission creep', that makes sense now ...

I was simply curious as to what you guys thought about having the genetic inclination to drink ... r.e. something Neo brought up regarding 'conception' ...

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Well stated Tanin ... and of course, I agree ...

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

I didn't know I had a hidden desire to drink until I took my first one ... then the flood gates opened ...

Pap...I'd have to put weight on the "I didn't know" part and totally eliminate "the desire to drink" part until after the experience of drinking and some practice. Was I alcoholic at birth? If a person does not entertain the compulsion to drink and then stretch it to the obsession and then the addiction (first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man...chinese of course) he or she is not alcoholic...the AMA definition of alcoholism works in this discussion. Was I predisposed? Yes and somewhat a normal 9 years old with the exception of an ongoing attachment to depression (alcohol is also a chemical depressant) when my grandmother over came her daughter's active resistance to her wanting to introduce her grandchildren to cultural, strong, heady, Portugese Rose wine. My grandfathers; both sides, were alcoholic, my mother the daughter of an alcoholic; therefore the open resistance to having her children introduced to the chemcial of choice. My grandmother turned me on and didn't know it. I got turned on and didn't know about alcoholism until I got into recovery...rarely said the word, never had to spell it, didn't know that I didn't know anything about alcoholism. Never used the word "drunk" in my family because to use that word on a relative was a sure ticket to getting your ass whupped fast and hard with verbal recitations regarding disrespect. My grandmother didn't intend to "turn me (one of 4 grandchildren at the table) on" and I didn't know that the God of our religion lived in a bottle of Portugese Red...my first definition of orgasm was my first drink and then as it does historically the disease progressed over time with practice. Drinking was open and normal thru out my family. We had our drunks and addicts with very perverse behaviors including familial incest (alcoholic/addict) and more however alcohol never disappeared from the counter, refer, cubbord, meals and just passing time. Drink is what I did, because I could whenever I wanted and however much. I had no Idea from the age of 9 that there was such a thing as Alcoholics Anonymous and/or why it existed. If my family members ever entered it by numbers I would not be able to tell you what the dynamics of my family would be like...maybe I would just say, abnormal and never alcoholic. Alcoholism is a disease, a primary disease with its own pathology and symptoms. It is not the result of some emotional or mental condtion however many emotional and mental condition result from continuous and ever progressing usage of alcohol. The ability to choose? My first drink was a non-choice. My next one because I like the taste of wine. The next one because I felt comfortable and able, not so depressed, by last one because I had absolutely no control over something that controlled me and I just hated being controlled by anything. It had almost killed me three times with no intention to die when I opened the bottle.

First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. A progressive, incureable, disease with if not arrested by total abstinence results in insanity and death. That is the disease I have along side tuberculosis (also born with that weener). I am catholic and portugese and male; didn't have choices there also. Only one comes with a compulsion which on a daily basis I exercise a treatment of twelve steps, twelve traditions, slogans, literature, the support of literally thousands of other alcoholics like myself and the constant relationship of a power greater than myself who was around to witness the start of this disease thousands of years before the birth of the creature called "His Son". I no longer "What if" regarding the process of this disease in my life...periods of discussion regarding what, where, when, how and why are time wasted on getting right to the point for me "No thanks I've had enough" is the very best detterant to the next drink for me taught to me by another alcoholic who was explaining what he did when presented with the next drink. It works...everything is is God is.

Alcoholic since conception? Okay...now what?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I agree with you Jerry F, ...

My take on this whole thing that Neo brought up is this ... ... ... some of ARE born with a genetic condition that lends itself to abuse alcohol if we're ever introduced to it ... I think of it as a 'hand grenade' within ... ... ... it's totally harmless unless we pull the 'pin' ... once the pin has been pulled, it's only a matter of time before it blows up and destroys all around it ...

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Well, there is scientific support that some are born with a genetic-caused predisposition to alcoholism.

I'm curious, Pappy, with regard to the hand grenade metaphor. What constitutes pulling the pin for a person?

If a genetically predisposed person drinks for a year? Gets drunk? Has one drink? Hangs around drinkers?

Also, can someone born with a genetic condition making him vulnerable to alcoholism make it through life without pulling the pin?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Tanin wrote:
Well, there is scientific support that some are born with a genetic-caused predisposition to alcoholism.
I'm curious, Pappy, with regard to the hand grenade metaphor. What constitutes pulling the pin for a person?
If a genetically predisposed person drinks for a year? Gets drunk? Has one drink? Hangs around drinkers?

Also, can someone born with a genetic condition making him vulnerable to alcoholism make it through life without pulling the pin?

IMO ... ... ... 'pulling the pin' would constitute having a drink at whatever age ... when that part of the brain says, Hey, I like that, rather than oooh, I better be careful with this stuff, then the timer is set and ticking ... many, if not all of us are set to drink again and again and again if we have this condition within us ... If we're genetically predisposed to become alcoholics, then our chances are almost guaranteed that we will ... and if we drink for a year, or get drunk, or has one drink, or hangs around drinkers, then of course I believe we almost ensure that we'll activate our disease and set the timer ... there is such a thing, I believe, as mind over matter ... for me that was me learning of God and His/Her availibility to grant us this power ...

My mom and dad, for example we're almost assuredly predisposed to drink, well, at least one of them, due to their genetic background ... BUT they never ever had a drink, cause both were devoutly religious in thinking it was a sin to drink any alcohol due to their beliefs ... so we'll never know for sure ... (note: I do NOT carry the same belief of it being a sin to have a drink, but I do feel it's a sin to over-indulge ...) ... ... ... so yes, by my parents example, I do believe that one can go through life without 'pulling the pin' ... but it would include a strong spiritual backbone to accomplish such a thing, in my opinion ...

Great question Tanin ... I'm sure there are differing views to this ...

Pappy

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

There are a lot of people in the world... anything's possible.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

justadrunk wrote:
There are a lot of people in the world... anything's possible.

Exactly!

7,039,375,492