Yesterday while at a meeting, two people mentioned the death (suicide) of their friend. I believe I had seen her around for a couple months, I think she just got out of a sober house - that's beside the point. She had 3 young children and a husband very worried about her - kept calling into the AA hotline for help (for her). The gentleman who carries the phone this month, asked me to talk to her a couple weeks ago, sort of like a 12th step call, because he knew I had kids too... he picked me to ask, but I was a little scared, and said of course I would help if I could, but I needed to ask my sponsor about it.
I was just on step 9. So she said no, I wasn't ready to do a 12th step call, that I shouldn't because I'm not at that step. That really bothered me, because I felt like I really could at least listen, and be there to let her know that she's not alone in mothering as an alcoholic. There are not many of us around here... actually, woman with a lot of recovery period.
As scared and not ready as I feel, and as much as I would love to just "hang out" and work on myself for a long while yet, I see very clearly that this area is in need of female help. The few woman with a decent amount of recovery are swamped with sponsee's, and my old sponsor was advising me to be selective where I could help with what I was allowed to do (give rides etc). The lady I was giving rides to was too bossy of me according to my old sponsor, and she thought I should put my efforts elsewhere.
In my early sobriety, I feel like she knows best with 10 yrs. I do however, get a pang in my heart and gut "picking" certain people who seem "good enough". I feel like I want to help everyone, and I know I can't, but I don't feel right about premeditating it. I feel best when I just try and help anyone I can, tall, short, smart, the opposite, homeless, wealthy... you get the point.
Am I being still too impulsive like I was when I was drinking? Not thinking things through and making deliberate choices? I almost feel like if it was up to me, this is exactly how I want to be. I want to believe in everyone, give everyone a chance, not really judge anyone for anything. This is not a big town, I don't feel in danger helping the "scary" looking ones.
I did end up leaving that sponsor for some of these reasons and some others... but I'm still wondering if I was wrong. My current sponsor (also ten yrs sober) said she was sponsored by my ex sponsor for a while, a couple yrs ago, and had feelings of being controlled, belittled, and feelings that she was better than everyone else.
I had those same exact feelings - and others - that made me leave her, even though she was brilliant, she did not have what I wanted. That was the bottom line.
So anyway - when the husband of this now suicide case called in for her, I felt the stress he must have felt immediately. He was desperate, but my ex sponsor said the reason no one could go to her is because she didn't call in for herself. I accepted that fully, and still do. I'm sure that I wouldn't have saved her life... I know how these things are... I am not allowing my mind to go their (much). I should admit, I was up all night over this.
Mostly though - I thought about the husband and 3 little kids. I came to accept that the Mother was not where my mind should focus, but I feel like I could talk to the husband... understand how he's feeling... maybe help a little there. I wish I would have had someone to talk to - I never did actually talk to another person who went through it until about a month ago. It was so healing, and even though I did reach out for help back when it was me shaken up over 10 yrs ago - that was not meant to be.
Now I feel like I could help with this case. I know the desperation you feel when you're just calling anyone who will listen begging for help (like this husband did calling the aa hotline). I called everyone and anyone who would listen. But no one helped me. And no one helped him either. And now I know how terrified he must be. And there were no kids involved in my case - but I can't imagine how this must be with 3 little ones scared and confused.
I feel like I could fly out the door right now to help. I almost got out of bed at 2 in the morning to try and find these people that I do not know... but know so well.
What should I do? Is this irrational? Just because I would have loved for someone to talk to me about it, who went through it, and be by my side for a while... doesn't mean everyone else would right? I'm so confused about my extrememly passionate feelings here. I feel like there is some sort of ammends that I could make to my soul... some opportunity for peace for me - and I truly want to help those people too.
I would not have even considered this 6 months ago - because I was still ripped apart by the effects myself, even after over 10 yrs. It's so recent that I'm feeling acceptance for my situation - I wonder if because of that, it's too soon to try and help someone else too.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Thursday 6th of September 2012 09:07:33 AM
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Somethings are outside the ambit of AA. I have learned over the years, sometimes through bitter experience, not to go more than what the program asks of me. We are emotionally weak people, and I find that sometimes other people's serious emotional problems can impact very seriously on our own personal recovery. When I came into AA one of the members who was close to me committed suicide. I was very depressed and sad. Recently one of my sponsees son committed suicide. We do not understand other related illnesses, so it's best to stay within the parameters of what the AA book suggests we should do for another person. My condolences to the family. I think your sponsor was correct.
You brought me to tears here ... Personally, I feel your ex-sponsor was wrong in making you feel you weren't ready to help another alcoholic, no matter the situation ... that is just plain wrong in my book ... just think of how many times a newbie has come into a meeting and wound up helping someone that's been there for a while already ... I have been helped by those just walking in the doors for the first time ... so I don't care if you only have ONE day of sobriety, you are already in a position to help others, even if you don't realize it ...
So what if you'd have talked to this woman, and not had the expertise to turn her thinking around, what would the results have been? ... we'll never know for sure ... But one thing is clear, a stranger came to help them the best way they could, they showed that they CARE ... If not one other point was made, the sufferer still has to know someone cares, and you'd have shown that if given the right advice ... To plant the idea that someone truly 'cares' can make all the difference in the world ... especially to a person so distraught as to commit suicide ...
I think your true talent here is that you're getting a taste of the sober life and starting to see just how much difference you can make in other peoples lives ... our whole attitude and outlook on life itself has changed ... not only were we willing to go to any lengths to learn this way of life, but we now have developed such a love of helping others, we'll go to any length to help them ... if we don't, then we're not practicing the program and are returning to being selfish and self-centered ... I sense this is your dilemma ...
You, for sure, have a heart of pure gold ... you have taught me personally to continue to strive to 'get involved' ... not to just sit back and say I'm too tried, but to get up off my butt and do something ... you have personally brought back the excitement of being SOBER to me ... to appreciate what I have learned ... you have reminded me of the great feeling I got in early sobriety, that feeling that is so hard to hold on to ... and for that I am so grateful to you ... SO... listen young lady, you DO make a BIG difference in others lives ... so when the next opportunity arises, and it will, you go do what you do best, be a friend to a stranger in need ... ... ... tell them how they need not suffer any more, that you do understand how they feel and that if you can get well, they can too ...
I'd like to hug the'stuffin' out of you ... (((((HUG)))))
Love you, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Tasha, there is a saying that is used (or used to be used) in high stress times that comes to mind.
"Maintain an even strain"
It was used by people in combat as they looked out for each other. They were going into difficult situations that they knew there was a high possibility of tragedy. They would say it to each other and it was said to them so that everyone was reminded there are going to be up and downs along their path. There are going to be ups and downs in your lifelong recovery (using the theory that we are cured--as long as we maintain the program 24 hrs at a time) Others around you are alcoholics, and alcoholics die if they do not grasp the program. This poor lady probably had numerous problems that could not be fixed until the alcohol stopped. You need to fix one thing at a time. You can not save them all. Your sponsor was probably right in that you could have been sucked in to the quagmire at a time critical to your recovery. Is this sad? Absolutely. Could you have helped? Maybe. Probably not. You need to "Maintain an even strain" because if you leap around with no rhyme or reason you endanger your "squad". Your "Squad" are those that directly depend on you i.e. your family. This will not be the only tragedy you see in AA. We are alcoholics. I am sure that your sponsor had questions about what was best for you, because you were part of her squad, and she had seen a situation where someone fairly new to recovery was pulled away from recovery. Do not self impose this tragic death in any way on yourself or something you possibly could have done. You could have gotten involved, she still could have committed suicide, and then you would be kicking yourself harder because you would have known her better. Do not go there. Give this to your HP. If you really can help the family, do so. I consider you an equal in my squad. We come here in the battle against alcoholism. We are in the same burned out bunker together waiting for the word to move forward and work as a team to defeat a common enemy. I am looking at you and telling you for your own sake and with sincere caring as we go forward, for you to maintain an even strain. We lost a "comrade" who was not following the battle plan. She had a family who you can probably help by letting them talk it out with you, but realize you can not save everyone. I hope that helps and does not sound too harsh. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
This is just what I needed to hear actually - every response here. Thank you.
I am not worried about what happened in the past with my sponsor and I anymore. I'm not worried about the choices that were made or if it was right or wrong. That was God's will. I appreciate the perspective, and I truly cherish every word given with love - thank you all so much for that.
Mostly, what's left is a distraught family - as I see it in my mind - of course, I do not know if that is a fact. As my sponsor pointed out - they may have all the help they need already. Just because I was left to "buck up" doesn't mean that's what's happening to them, and if it is, maybe that is what they need. Just because that response left me feeling alone and confused, doesn't mean it will be the case for someone else. This person may have a God of their understanding to turn to. I didn't. That's huge - and something that didn't occur to me, and for that perspective from my sponsor - and for every single word posted here... Thank you thank you so much. I am not going to try and play God.
I know that my mind can not possibly think for itself - and this becomes more and more clear to me. I truly need AA, and I always will. This is where I belong.
On another note, I've decided that I will try and find out where the funeral is. Try and at least be present... but I could not pounce all over this as I wanted to yesterday and through the night.
I plan to leave a card with my number and a simple explanation of who I am, a short bit about my experience, and my phone number. The rest I will leave to God.
In working the steps, sitting at my favorite place to do so. (Where I first prayed, in front of my stove on the kitchen floor - when the wind and world were knocked out of me almost 6 months ago). I realized my faults. Selfish - thinking I should take away from my family and recovery to get involved in something that will reek havoc on my recovery - and ultimately my family if that is stressed (as you said Tom - thank you). Fear - that my God will not prevail and keep me safe. Distrust - in the prior. Ego - that I am so important in this persons life - when it's quite possible this person has all he needs.
After asking God to remove these defects of character, I remembered that I am where I am suppose to be. I am good enough today (Thank you Pappy). I do have a caring heart... and I can ask Him to help me be available to people whenever they reach out for help. (thank you Angell, my thoughts exactly regarding her taking me) I can feel proud that the work that I'm doing is the best that I know how. (thank you gonee) I can be grateful for this love for my brothers and sisters, that I didn't know could be possible... Thank you HP and AA.
When I got up from the floor, I gave my daughter a hug, because she was sitting at my feet craving my attention. I know there are no coincidences.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Yesterday while at a meeting, two people mentioned the death (suicide) of their friend. I believe I had seen her around for a couple months, I think she just got out of a sober house - that's beside the point. She had 3 young children and a husband very worried about her - kept calling into the AA hotline for help (for her). The gentleman who carries the phone this month, asked me to talk to her a couple weeks ago, sort of like a 12th step call, because he knew I had kids too... he picked me to ask, but I was a little scared, and said of course I would help if I could, but I needed to ask my sponsor about it.
Good strategy, ask your sponsor about it when in doubt.
I was just on step 9. So she said no, I wasn't ready to do a 12th step call, that I shouldn't because I'm not at that step. That really bothered me, because I felt like I really could at least listen, and be there to let her know that she's not alone in mothering as an alcoholic. There are not many of us around here... actually, woman with a lot of recovery period.
Bill W. was 'sober' six months and on extremely shaky ground when he visited Dr. Bob. Go left into the bar and drink a ginger ale - or go right and use the church directory to find someone who knows someone who knows a desperate alcoholic so I can manufacture a twelve step call... Dr. Bob was 'sober' days when they went to visit AA #3. In either case, the steps hadn't been written yet and so - it's a pretty good bet that without leapfrogging the steps to arrive at step twelve when the need arises, there wouldn't be an AA.
As scared and not ready as I feel, and as much as I would love to just "hang out" and work on myself for a long while yet, I see very clearly that this area is in need of female help. The few woman with a decent amount of recovery are swamped with sponsee's, and my old sponsor was advising me to be selective where I could help with what I was allowed to do (give rides etc). The lady I was giving rides to was too bossy of me according to my old sponsor, and she thought I should put my efforts elsewhere.
When I first came in to AA, in 1978, we were pressed into service almost on day one of our arrival. It might be serving as a door greeter or cleaning ashtrays - but it was considered never too early for service. On the other hand, I do get the selective bit. We seek balance in this journey and if we do nothing but service work in AA we shortchange ourselves and our family and friends who have loved us through our active alcoholism. I realize that I am a finite resource and help where I can. For instance, I had a sponsee over to the house for four days last week. He lives 90 minutes away and so I picked him up and brought him home. He was coming here at his request to do stepwork. Day one he mentioned that there was this girl who lived a block away from me that he was with for six years....sure would like to see her. Chose to see her the first night for a few minutes, an hour the next day and five hours on day three. Ran into an old buddy with a few months sober and decided to hang out with him and spent the night at his house one day. Think I'm setting aside four days out of my life to do this with him again? I might, but not today. Today there are others more desperate and more willing to do the work. I'm making the best choices I know how to make - and that's all I can do.
You made the best choice you could make at the time - called your sponsor for advice and then took it.
In my early sobriety, I feel like she knows best with 10 yrs. I do however, get a pang in my heart and gut "picking" certain people who seem "good enough". I feel like I want to help everyone, and I know I can't, but I don't feel right about premeditating it. I feel best when I just try and help anyone I can, tall, short, smart, the opposite, homeless, wealthy... you get the point.
Yeah, I do get the point. We can't help everyone though - only those who want it. I help those I believe I can help who are placed in front of me.
Am I being still too impulsive like I was when I was drinking? Not thinking things through and making deliberate choices? I almost feel like if it was up to me, this is exactly how I want to be. I want to believe in everyone, give everyone a chance, not really judge anyone for anything. This is not a big town, I don't feel in danger helping the "scary" looking ones.
It's a tightrope - impulsive or guided? Either way we don't know our path. Check your motives, then check them again - constant vigilance.
I did end up leaving that sponsor for some of these reasons and some others... but I'm still wondering if I was wrong. My current sponsor (also ten yrs sober) said she was sponsored by my ex sponsor for a while, a couple yrs ago, and had feelings of being controlled, belittled, and feelings that she was better than everyone else.
It's important to share our feelings and nice to be validated, but be careful of gossip and character assassination.
I had those same exact feelings - and others - that made me leave her, even though she was brilliant, she did not have what I wanted. That was the bottom line.
Your bottom line is enough.
So anyway - when the husband of this now suicide case called in for her, I felt the stress he must have felt immediately. He was desperate, but my ex sponsor said the reason no one could go to her is because she didn't call in for herself. I accepted that fully, and still do. I'm sure that I wouldn't have saved her life... I know how these things are... I am not allowing my mind to go their (much). I should admit, I was up all night over this.
I don't think you were wrong in any way - I want to be clear about that, but the first AA twelve step call - the one that started this whole thing - didn't call for himself either.
Mostly though - I thought about the husband and 3 little kids. I came to accept that the Mother was not where my mind should focus, but I feel like I could talk to the husband... understand how he's feeling... maybe help a little there. I wish I would have had someone to talk to - I never did actually talk to another person who went through it until about a month ago. It was so healing, and even though I did reach out for help back when it was me shaken up over 10 yrs ago - that was not meant to be.
Al-Anon is better suited to this in my opinion and I think that the family might have been better served by putting them in touch with them.
Now I feel like I could help with this case. I know the desperation you feel when you're just calling anyone who will listen begging for help (like this husband did calling the aa hotline). I called everyone and anyone who would listen. But no one helped me. And no one helped him either. And now I know how terrified he must be. And there were no kids involved in my case - but I can't imagine how this must be with 3 little ones scared and confused.
I still feel Al-Anon holds the answer for this family.
What should I do?
Accept the things you cannot change.
Is this irrational? Just because I would have loved for someone to talk to me about it, who went through it, and be by my side for a while... doesn't mean everyone else would right? I'm so confused about my extrememly passionate feelings here. I feel like there is some sort of ammends that I could make to my soul... some opportunity for peace for me - and I truly want to help those people too.
Your right, not everyone would have liked someone to talk to in this case - maybe they would, maybe not. There is no way of knowing now. We do the best we can and our best changes as we travel further along this path.
I would not have even considered this 6 months ago - because I was still ripped apart by the effects myself, even after over 10 yrs. It's so recent that I'm feeling acceptance for my situation - I wonder if because of that, it's too soon to try and help someone else too.
When I came in, and for the most part, it was the folks with 17 days that I looked to - not seventeen years. The fellow with seventeen days was a flipping miracle - the one with seventeen years was a liar cause who could go seventeen years without a drink? I know better now, but back then - it was the ones who figured out how to get days - maybe months who I could hear. It is never too early to take the hand of a struggling alcohollic that is reaching out. It may however, be too early to take the hand of that alcoholilc alone....you may need to have an anchor yourself. If your HP isn't enough, bring along another AA-er.
-- Edited by justadrunk on Thursday 6th of September 2012 09:07:33 AM
Thanks Angell - that makes a lot of sense, and I feel better now that it's not just rattling around in my head : ) This break down is just what I needed.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
I would encourage someone with 4 months sobriety to NOT go out trying to rescue suicidal folks. I am a bleeding heart too. Perhaps I could see going with you, but at less than 6 months sobriety, I agree that it's too soon to be making 12th step calls. You never know what you will encounter and you need a strong foundation to be ready for it. She may have been totally drunk, been talking suicidal on the phone. You are not in a place to deal with that.
Tasha, this situation stinks but this is one of multiple folks you will see lose the battle to alcholism. The horrible saying we hear again and again is that "you have to step over dead bodies" in this program. I hate that, but it's true. Consider yourself blessed to be sober all the more.
We are not a mobile crisis, suicide response team. The responsibility declaration states that when someone reaches for the hand of AA, I am to be there and for that, I am responsible. This person was not reaching for help and folks were trying to reach for her. Suicidal people are best dealt with by psych hospitals and police.
As a person recovering from PTSD, do you really need more exposure to trauma. I kind of feel this situation is only triggering PTSD symptoms for you and that you are reexperiencing your own trauma during a time when a lot of healing is going on for you. With PTSD it is common to have reexperiencing symptoms and this was a likely trigger for you as it kept you up all night. I don't think it's all about empathy either. I know you care but it's also your issue. Helping others should come automatically - and I see you doing that here already. You are living AA. If you have to spend a night tortured in thoughts about someone or something, it's more about you than them. It's not coming from the right place. Keep moving forward. Say prayers for this woman's family, but heal yourself.
I hope I don't offend anyone or come off callous here, but it's my take.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Yes I agree Mark - I'm sort of seeing it that way too now. Although, one important fact is that this isn't about the 12th step call, in fact, no one knew she was suicidal or anything like that. I agree - I could have walked in on something that I wasn't ready for in any way. I'm sure I was protected here (again) and I am really truly grateful for that. This is triggering a lot of stress, and my sponsor had the same take as you. She told me to focus on me, and not let this get me all worked up. It's true, I would not be helping anyone if I showed up all emotionally distraught... and I certainly was that - even as I wrote the first portion of this thread - and only now am I cooling down and reaching peace with it all.
It's amazing how I can go from thinking I am the only one and MUST get there and save this family at all costs - to basically just letting go and letting God. All in like 12 hrs. I am still oh so crazy - I see that.
Thanks again everyone. It really does just feel like that moment where you just throw yourself into the mosh pit... you jump in knowing you're crazy - and everyone just hangs on to you until you are ready to be put down. I'm so grateful for you. No more smacking into the cement repeatedly for me today.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Ok, I am that new person and I know nothing about the rules here but.....you spoke to my heart the other night, wether you realized it or not, you helped me. Some women just need to hear they are not alone and that I wasn't the only one making horrible mistakes and choices on booze. The thing is you don't know who you could be helping by speaking out so don't hold back, if your experiecnce helps even one person (me for example) then let it out. Please. Everytime I hear anothers struggles, especially other women and mothers, it makes me feel less alone in this. So thank you.
Okay aliasisme - thanks for saying that. I think a power greater than me is at work and speaking to you though, if that makes sense. I was just in your similar shoes not that long ago is all... as Angell stated in another thread.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
My heart goes out to you, and I'll pray for the woman's family... What a tragedy. I don't know the answer to this dilemma. I do know that I've found myself in a somewhat similar situation. There's a woman who I have become friendly with in the program. The first time I met her was when I was maybe 1 month sober or less. She spoke at a meeting about how she had just recently attempted suicide ( sounded like a pretty serious attempt) and of her concerns that she would begin drinking again because she was moving into her first apartment alone. I did not see her again until last week. She sat next to me at a meeting and told me that she had 'f ed up'... Yes, she did begin drinking again and had just been released from the hospital after yet another suicide attempt that required 40 stitches to repair. My first reaction was to offer support and encouragement. I had this feeling of wanting to 'protect' her.. She just seemed sooooo terribly vulnerable. I felt that we had a connection because she spoke of being a 'cutter' (someone who self- injures, usually with knives or razors, as a twisted coping mechanism-HUGE indication of serious sexual abuse in childhood). I was a cutter throughout my teenage years until I had a 'scare' that required stitches. I simply feel a kinship with this woman. Several times I have tried to get together with her to go to meetings together , and she's often ' too tired'. I have no doubt that she's tired, but it's a bit irritating to have someone who is unemployed use the excuse of being too tired when I work 2 jobs and still make it to meetings ( ok that was way judgemental-sorry- I'm working on it). I really want to be of help to this woman who's suffering, but she doesn't appear to be wanting it for herself. It's frustrating, but really at not even 4 months sober myself, Im not in a position to think that I can do much more for her aside from pray and invite her to meetings. Its a terrible position to be in, but if someone doesn't HONESTLY want help, and is willing to take the necessary steps to get help there's nothing that can be done for them. It sucks.
I feel you Col, my cousin is a cutter also and has been in and out of hospitals and juvie for all sorts of problems (you could write a book on my messed up family, she is one of the better ones) and I offered for her to come live with me, back when I wasn't having these drininking problems. But she didn't want the help and I wasn't about to force her to move across the country, even if at the time she really needed my help. But like you said, they have to want it, you can't force it
Personally, If I was your sponsor, I would have at least made a phone call to see if she wanted help. If they did want help, I would have taken you along. It is never a good idea to go on a 12 step call alone if we can avoid it. First reason is safety and the second is so the newer person can gain experience on what to do.
There may be more to the story that your sponsor may know so I don't want to make judgement, the "Working with others" chapter has a lot of good content, we don't make a practice of working with people who don't want to get sober.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
