So.....some old timers in my homegroup like to share this about folks who wonder if they are really alcoholic: Most typical/normal drinkers don't sit around trying to figure out if they are alcoholics. Peace.
-- Edited by nezyb on Thursday 26th of July 2012 08:36:42 PM
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I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
Anybody that's been around any length of time here already knows the answer to "Is She, or Isn't She" ... This whole exercise is moot if she doesn't know ... and I think she's simply delaying the inevitable ...
Go ahead Erica, ... try the 90 day abstinence ... let us know how you feel as you pile up the sober days ... you stated: I was starting to wonder if my daily all-day every day drinking was becoming a problem... and my OA sponsor ordered me to go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days. ... everyone knows the guideline is no more than 2 one ounce(alcohol content) drinks a day ... otherwise, there's a better than great chance that you "have a problem" with alcohol ... and that it is a symptom of something more internal ... try getting a heavy smoker to only smoke 2 cigarettes a day ... it ain't gonna happen unless there's some great big 'short-term' reward ... (and that could be ... SEE, I told you I could do it) ... just to prove they're 'in control' ...
Erica, no matter what you do, just try not to hurt anybody ... physically, I mean ... for now ... We can help you later if and when YOU decide you need help ...
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Thursday 26th of July 2012 09:32:16 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I've only been around little more than a week and since I'm still young, I've been questioned on my status as an alcoholic and or my sincerity in sticking to the program. These people I ignore. I relate to the feelings and attitudes mentioned repeatedly in the how it works section and drs opinion. I also know that I have a desire to quit and a desire to search for a healthy life style. The program provides both. I don't have to PROVE I'm an alcoholic I have to BELIEVE I am an alcoholic. Just like I don't have to PROVE there is a god, I just have to BELIEVE there could be one.
-- Edited by Neophyte on Thursday 26th of July 2012 11:31:39 PM
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In the end, everything will be alright. If it is not alright, it is not the end... Paulo coelho (also marigold hotel)
I just woke up... and I'm not having the morning NEEEEEED for alcohol the way I have been. I can feel a slight craving for it... but I'm not shaking, not jittery the way I have been every morning until I either caved in, went back to bed, or fought through it.
This is making me wonder if what I thought were addiction and/or withdrawal symptoms were really just severe anxiety of my upcoming court cases... and now that both were taken care of at once... and the outcome was rather great compared to what it could have been... I'm waking up (mostly) without that need.
I'm so confused now if I was addicted. One of my almost immediate thoughts was "Yay! Then maybe I can go back to drinking for fun!"
I think I will once again quote the Big Book...
The Big Book says in Chapter 5 "How it Works":
Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us.
Cunning... baffling... Maybe this is my addiction's latest tactic to get me to drink again... making me think I was never addicted after all. Now I'm going to have to start doubting all my inner thoughts.
Only time will tell for sure...
In the meantime... I will continue trying to stay sober... and if my lack of need this morning was actually due to my court victory... then I wonder how long I can ride that victory to not needing alcohol... pfft, probably only for today. I will also continue attending AA meetings... the phone conference ones, despite some members here thinking they aren't vaalid/real enough... I HAVE found support through them, and HAVE found lots of people I connected with and got their contact info and have called them when I was fighting the urge to drink and they have helped me through it. I DO still want to attend face-to-face meetings and now I will probably have the luxury to do so... I've been having to deal with a lot of legal crap which took up much of my days so, yeah the phone meetings were a great help since they were available at odd hours.
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
And I'm not knocking your phone meetings or online meetings....I'm sure for some people they are a lifesaver as they may be the only option available....But if you have F2F meetings available to you...I tend to wonder if you're aren't seeking an easier softer way.
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
Fair enough I'll do that. Or try to anyway. If I relapse and drink again, it'll be because I DO have a problem. Will still be doing AA and reading the Big Book and such.
Now I understand your comments about the phone meetings, and I can see your point of view about them. Being that I'm primarily a night shifter, but my boss has been messing with my schedule a lot lately AND I've been having to go apply for a public defender (because I'm too poor/broke to pay for a lawyer) then meet with that public defender and all kinds of junk... the phone meetings felt like the only solution at the time. NOW I truly do have more ability to go to F2F meetings now that all that stuff is done with. I mean my work schedule will still be weird, but at least that's all I have to work around.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time....Just sharing with you what works. If you can't make it 90 days....Or you're fricken miserable without alcohol....Than you probably have a problem with alcohol....If you work the steps in those 90 days...Which I did....And have the obsession to drink lifted....Which happened for me....Along with lot's of other good stuff.....You got nothing to worry about....Unless you want to drink...I can't....For me to drink...Is to die.
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
That's going really far, Stepchild. What's your basis for such claimed certainty? I'm curious.
I'm still feeling amazing and having barely any urge to drink.
Sadly... I'm betting this is simply the result of immense grattitude for a relatively good outcome in court today... And I'll bet my brain IS trying to deceive me and tempt me to drink. Otherwise... why did I so quickly think "Yay, maybe now I can go back to drinking for fun!" if you saw in another thread... I pointed out that before all this... I very rarely drank for fun... and very few of my friends do either. I am capable of having LOADS of sober fun... Dancing, horseback riding, whitewater rafting... I'm the adventurous sort... not a bar-hopping sort--by nature anyway.
Only time will tell... and I'm sure I'll have a much better idea in 2 or 3 days. I doubt my court victory high will sustain my alcohol addiction for long... if that is indeed what is happening.
Your passing experience, knowledge and feedback based on more years in AA IS appreciated Stepchild!
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
That's going really far, Stepchild. What's your basis for such claimed certainty? I'm curious.
I haven't seen an alkie like they talk about in the Big Book pass this test yet....Honestly...Most of them will balk at the idea of even trying to go 90 days....But our friend here is going to be attending meetings as she does it...So I assume she's already come to grips with the fact a problem exists......Try it...I was on another site with a lot of newcomers that tossed the idea around whether they were alcoholic or not...This test never failed. I've heard old timers say the same thing. If you remove the alcohol and the problem goes away...You're not alcoholic....If you remove the alcohol and the problem begins....You have a problem. I challenge you to try this test when you have an alcoholic teetering on the edge of whether they are or they aren't...And see what kind of result you get. Come back and prove me wrong.
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
That's going really far, Stepchild. What's your basis for such claimed certainty? I'm curious.
I haven't seen an alkie like they talk about in the Big Book pass this test yet....Honestly...Most of them will balk at the idea of even trying to go 90 days....But our friend here is going to be attending meetings as she does it...So I assume she's already come to grips with the fact a problem exists......Try it...I was on another site with a lot of newcomers that tossed the idea around whether they were alcoholic or not...This test never failed. I've heard old timers say the same thing. If you remove the alcohol and the problem goes away...You're not alcoholic....If you remove the alcohol and the problem begins....You have a problem. I challenge you to try this test when you have an alcoholic teetering on the edge of whether they are or they aren't...And see what kind of result you get. Come back and prove me wrong.
What about the fellow depicted in the Big Book (More About Alcoholism chapter), a 30 year old man who "was doing a great deal of spree drinking" who quit drinking for 25 years, during which he enjoyed "a successful and happy business career?" Your theory would say that "alcohol wasn't the problem."
Seems like he would have passed your "sure fire test." Yet he was still an alkie and once he started drinking he was dead in 4 years.
Bill put that story in there for a reason. I think your theory, as you've described it, is in opposition to the Big Book example. Do you disagree?
BTW, it's not about trying to "prove [you] wrong." It's about understanding alcoholism and understanding the Big Book.
What about the fellow depicted in the Big Book (More About Alcoholism chapter), a 30 year old man who "was doing a great deal of spree drinking" who quit drinking for 25 years, during which he enjoyed "a successful and happy business career?" Your theory would say that "alcohol wasn't the problem."
Seems like he would have passed your "sure fire test." Yet he was still an alkie and once he started drinking he was dead in 4 years.
Bill put that story in there for a reason. I think your theory, as you've described it, is in opposition to the Big Book example. Do you disagree?
BTW, it's not about trying to "prove [you] wrong." It's about understanding alcoholism and understanding the Big Book.
Yeah...That guy stopped on his own in order to pursue money....It says he had a successful and happy business career....Nothing about a happy life....He was living with untreated alcoholism....Notice they say he was bone dry for 25 years....When he retired and resumed drinking....He still tried to do it on his own will power...Or any method that money could buy.. and died four years later....I think the point they are making with him is you won't lose being an alcoholic by stopping for a long period of time....I don't see anywhere that it says he stopped on his own and had a happy contented life without working the program for 25 years...Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see that.
So.....some old timers in my homegroup like to share this about folks who wonder if they are really alcoholic: Most typical/normal drinkers don't sit around trying to figure out if they are alcoholics. Peace.
Exactly....How many people go on a recovery site to ask if they are alcoholic or not?....Normal drinkers don't even think about alcohol...Let alone googling recovery sites.
I'm having even less desire for alcohol now than when I posted earlier... and in recent past days, I'd be going bonkers by now.
So I'm a little confused by some of Stepchild's statements... should I REALLY test myself and try to go 90 days without alcohol... nor even going to AA meetings?
Very good points were made that most normal drinkers don't sit around wondering if they are alcoholics let alone google recovery sites... but remember... I was going to OA meetings even before AA... and I got a sponsor in OA who also had experience with alcoholism. I was starting to wonder if my daily all-day every day drinking was becoming a problem... and my OA sponsor ordered me to go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days. That opened the door to AA for me, and I wound up eventually finding my way here. By googling for it, yes... but after I had already entered the AA world...
All this will be moot within a few days. If I have a problem with drinking... I WILL get intense urges to drink in the next few days. Maybe I'm setting myself up for failure by saying that so positively... but like I said in yet another thread... I (usually) know my body... I will know if I have alcohol-addiction urges returning...
For me...Alcohol was creating problems in my life....When I connected the trouble in my life with my drinking...It was clear that I had a problem with alcohol...That got progressively worse....I do believe it is a progressive disease...And that we get worse...Never better. Should I have done something about it before getting to the point it almost killed me?....Of course....But it had it's claws in me so bad that denial was my friend....There was no way I was going to admit it. If you would have asked me to go 90 days without drinking...I would have declined....Knowing damn well I could never do it. I was drinking alcoholically from the age of 15 to the age of 52....And I denied it all the way to the end.
What about the fellow depicted in the Big Book (More About Alcoholism chapter), a 30 year old man who "was doing a great deal of spree drinking" who quit drinking for 25 years, during which he enjoyed "a successful and happy business career?" Your theory would say that "alcohol wasn't the problem."
Seems like he would have passed your "sure fire test." Yet he was still an alkie and once he started drinking he was dead in 4 years.
Bill put that story in there for a reason. I think your theory, as you've described it, is in opposition to the Big Book example. Do you disagree?
BTW, it's not about trying to "prove [you] wrong." It's about understanding alcoholism and understanding the Big Book.
Yeah...That guy stopped on his own in order to pursue money....It says he had a successful and happy business career....Nothing about a happy life....He was living with untreated alcoholism....Notice they say he was bone dry for 25 years....When he retired and resumed drinking....He still tried to do it on his own will power...Or any method that money could buy.. and died four years later....I think the point they are making with him is you won't lose being an alcoholic by stopping for a long period of time....I don't see anywhere that it says he stopped on his own and had a happy contented life without working the program for 25 years...Maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see that.
So, you're saying that the guy in the BB had a successful and happy business career but ... had an unhappy life? That he was "irritable, restless and discontented" per your "sure fire test?" Is that your interpretation?
Given the the message of the example in the BB, that would be an interesting interpretation. One for which I see no evidence.
I'm having even less desire for alcohol now than when I posted earlier... and in recent past days, I'd be going bonkers by now.
So I'm a little confused by some of Stepchild's statements... should I REALLY test myself and try to go 90 days without alcohol... nor even going to AA meetings?
Very good points were made that most normal drinkers don't sit around wondering if they are alcoholics let alone google recovery sites... but remember... I was going to OA meetings even before AA... and I got a sponsor in OA who also had experience with alcoholism. I was starting to wonder if my daily all-day every day drinking was becoming a problem... and my OA sponsor ordered me to go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days. That opened the door to AA for me, and I wound up eventually finding my way here. By googling for it, yes... but after I had already entered the AA world...
All this will be moot within a few days. If I have a problem with drinking... I WILL get intense urges to drink in the next few days. Maybe I'm setting myself up for failure by saying that so positively... but like I said in yet another thread... I (usually) know my body... I will know if I have alcohol-addiction urges returning...
Look, the simple answer is that only you decide if you are alcoholic or not, but it's not going to hurt you any to give AA a try for a couple of months while you get your head clean and try and figure out where you are at. The bars and bottle shops aren't going anywhere in the meantime.
It's a funny disease though - the only one I can think of that tries everything to deny it's existance even while it kills you. Believe it or not I've asked myself the same questions as you. I drank like a fish for 15 years. If I was awake and had money then I was drinking. For the last seven years I was never sober as I had come into an inheretence and could drink from wake to sleep without pesky things like work or poverty getting in the way. But I still ask myself if I am really an alcoholic sometimes. Or I should say my disease tries to convince me I'm not really an alcoholic. Crazy huh? I always have to keep Step One right at the front of my mind in case that voice ever starts making sense. If it does then I'm dead. Cunning, powerful, baffling.
I guess what you've got to honestly ask yourself is whether you like where drinking takes you and if you have any say in where it goes once you have the first drink. I hated where it took me and I had no say in where I went. I'm alcoholic and it made my life unmanagable. That's why I'm here, and I'm having a better life than I thought possible while I was drinking.
Most typical/normal drinkers don't sit around trying to figure out if they are alcoholics.
Normal friends, Lee and his wife, invited me over for New Years. Knowing that I was going to A.A. and newly sober for a few months he called back to warn me that they drink 'some' on New Years Eve.
During the course of the night, they each had a single rum & coke. Lee eventually made himself another, taking a sip or two from it before dumping the rest down the sink at the end of the evening.
Turns out that all the years I've know them and thought we were drinking together, it was me (and my wife) doing all the drinking. Lee and his wife always had one and maybe nursed a 2nd one. Who knew? I thought everyone drank just the way I did.
Neo, ... Excellent share here ... Wow, sounds like you been here a year already ... you are either a quick learner, or you've got everone fooled into thinking you're this young hotty, when you're actually this 65 year old (use your imagination here) woman ... ... ... Very mature observation ...
I don't have to PROVE I'm an alcoholic I have to BELIEVE I am an alcoholic. Just like I don't have to PROVE there is a god, I just have to BELIEVE there could be one.
I love this statement ...
Love Ya and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
People who don't have a drinking probem don't wonder if they have a drinking problem or find themselves (lurking) or searching on Alcoholic Anonymous web sites. "If it walks like... Just sayin'
Thanks pappy, I'm not experienced or anything close to it. I just want what I want when I want it. And you know what? I want to be comfortable in my own skin. And I heard you guys offered that, if I followed the path laid forth. And you know what? Not a single god damned person is going to tell me I don't "qualify" they don't live in my head, I don't live in theirs. If I say I'm an alcoholic, I am one. Non alcoholics don't go around claiming to be. Especially with such the stigma that goes along with that word.
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In the end, everything will be alright. If it is not alright, it is not the end... Paulo coelho (also marigold hotel)
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
I'm new here, but I've been sober for some time. Stepchild, I have never heard of that... and (sorry) it could be some inaccurate advice. The Boiler Plate saying is 90 mtgs in 90 days and don't drink in between, and at the end of 90 days you don't like what we have, we'll be glad to refund your misery. Also, (another sorry) nothing is "sure fire" in AA.
So.....some old timers in my homegroup like to share this about folks who wonder if they are really alcoholic: Most typical/normal drinkers don't sit around trying to figure out if they are alcoholics. Peace.
-- Edited by nezyb on Thursday 26th of July 2012 08:36:42 PM
Also, people who don't have a problem with booze don't, suddenly, start showing up at AA meetings
Fair enough I'll do that. Or try to anyway. If I relapse and drink again, it'll be because I DO have a problem. Will still be doing AA and reading the Big Book and such.
Now I understand your comments about the phone meetings, and I can see your point of view about them. Being that I'm primarily a night shifter, but my boss has been messing with my schedule a lot lately AND I've been having to go apply for a public defender (because I'm too poor/broke to pay for a lawyer) then meet with that public defender and all kinds of junk... the phone meetings felt like the only solution at the time. NOW I truly do have more ability to go to F2F meetings now that all that stuff is done with. I mean my work schedule will still be weird, but at least that's all I have to work around.
There is no substitute for meetings at a AA Fellowship. If you want to get sober and stay sober, there is no other way around it. Meetings, meeting and more meetings. There are no short-cuts.
I'm having even less desire for alcohol now than when I posted earlier... and in recent past days, I'd be going bonkers by now.
So I'm a little confused by some of Stepchild's statements... should I REALLY test myself and try to go 90 days without alcohol... nor even going to AA meetings?
Very good points were made that most normal drinkers don't sit around wondering if they are alcoholics let alone google recovery sites... but remember... I was going to OA meetings even before AA... and I got a sponsor in OA who also had experience with alcoholism. I was starting to wonder if my daily all-day every day drinking was becoming a problem... and my OA sponsor ordered me to go to 30 AA meetings in 30 days. That opened the door to AA for me, and I wound up eventually finding my way here. By googling for it, yes... but after I had already entered the AA world...
All this will be moot within a few days. If I have a problem with drinking... I WILL get intense urges to drink in the next few days. Maybe I'm setting myself up for failure by saying that so positively... but like I said in yet another thread... I (usually) know my body... I will know if I have alcohol-addiction urges returning...
for some alkies, advice is hard to take. Take a look in the mirror. You are or you are not alcoholic...there is no in between. It's like being a lil' pregnant...you are or you're not.
Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us.
Cunning... baffling... Maybe this is my addiction's latest tactic to get me to drink again... making me think I was never addicted after all. Now I'm going to have to start doubting all my inner thoughts.
Only time will tell for sure...
I know that sentiment all too well -cunning, baffling, powerful. I operated under this false perception myself for many years, not just others. My thinking was so off base that I became disillusioned with the idea of powerlessness as it applies to alcoholism. Eventually, I didn't know what to do or where to turn. I called it my "strait betwixed two".
Before I came to believe, I operated under 'many' misguided assumptions, especially the things that have already done me in -like alcohol. That's why I choose to operate under the "department of defeat" clause instead, if only for today. What's that you may ask? It's the part of me that surrenders to the idea of personal powerlessness, that's what. I'm an alcoholic, that I do know, and "defeatism" is my on viable option today. I've surrendered to that fact more than once, believe me I have. And the rest has been etched in a "one day at a time" philosophy that never seems to change, unless I 'allow' it to. But, once again, it's only me. Only you can decide your true fate, and whether the term 'alcoholic' applies to you or not, so proceed with caution while you sort things out. It's the best advice I can ever give.
Remember: The biggest defeat in every area of life is to forget, especially the things that can cause us more harm. When the bottle lies open before us, let's not try to be witty, but on the other hand, lets not forget, but make it our business to record the worst this malady can offer without changing one word. When that's done, we can finally sink into the reality which is this sober life. That's work enough for today. Onward...
-- Edited by Mr_David on Friday 27th of July 2012 08:15:11 AM
Here is a sure fire test for you....Don't drink for 90 days....Nothing. If at the end of 90 days you feel fine...Alcohol wasn't the problem. If after 90 days you feel irritable, restless and discontent...Or you can't make it for 90 days....Then alcohol is the problem and you should probably address it.
I'm new here, but I've been sober for some time. Stepchild, I have never heard of that... and (sorry) it could be some inaccurate advice. The Boiler Plate saying is 90 mtgs in 90 days and don't drink in between, and at the end of 90 days you don't like what we have, we'll be glad to refund your misery. Also, (another sorry) nothing is "sure fire" in AA.
You and Tanin can argue this all you want....I'm saying I've seen people put to this test and the result has always been the same..every time...It's not from the Big Book or AA and neither is 90 meetings in 90 days...That is something the rehabs started and not AA....But like the test I mentioned...90 in 90 seems to work...So I'd recommend that too. Nothing is absolute....The reason Bill W. used Rarely instead of Never is because you always have people that will try to make something fail or prove something wrong for their own agenda...The test I mentioned will give you a real good idea what kind of problem the person taking it has with alcohol...You want to keep beating this to death...Go for it....You have someone questioning their alcoholism....Try it. This is my test...Not AA's test. Maybe I should say....Rarely will you see it fail.
Frodo wrote:It's a funny disease though - the only one I can think of that tries everything to deny it's existance even while it kills you. Believe it or not I've asked myself the same questions as you.
This... yep... the urge to drink was coming back pretty strong last night until somebody from AA randomly called me... She just needed somebody to talk to because she's going through issues. She didn't want to talk about said issues, just about random stuff to keep distracted and probably to keep herself from drinking... and it worked out because she quite possibly is also what kept ME from drinking as well! We wound up chatting for 5 hours, lol. So here's another random sober day for me... woohoo :)
Frodo wrote:I guess what you've got to honestly ask yourself is whether you like where drinking takes you and if you have any say in where it goes once you have the first drink. I hated where it took me and I had no say in where I went. I'm alcoholic and it made my life unmanagable. That's why I'm here, and I'm having a better life than I thought possible while I was drinking.
I'm going to be a baaad AA member and admit sometimes I like where it takes me... at least I think I do. Sometimes I like altering my state of mind. Sometimes I like that it gives me the courage to get up on stage and sing karaoke and be silly uninhibited. I've never done that often... but it has made for some good times.
But lately... I don't like where it takes me. I always hope it'll make me feel better and often it works but makes me feel bad in a different way... it's like having a headache... but then somebody stomps on your foot and your foot is in so much pain that you forget about the headache.
Also... I used to be a silly drunk. Lately I've found myself becoming an agressive/mean drunk sometimes :/
This... yep... the urge to drink was coming back pretty strong last night until somebody from AA randomly called me... She just needed somebody to talk to because she's going through issues. She didn't want to talk about said issues, just about random stuff to keep distracted and probably to keep herself from drinking... and it worked out because she quite possibly is also what kept ME from drinking as well! We wound up chatting for 5 hours, lol. So here's another random sober day for me... woohoo :)
That is how this program works....You call someone up when you are feeling out of sorts and end up helping someone else...It's a Higher Power thing...At least that's what I believe. As far as going from a happy drunk to a mean/aggressive drunk goes....That's the nature of the beast...I used to love to drink...Solved all my problems...Then it stopped working for me....And punished me severely.
I agree augie. People who are not alcoholics don't tend to seriously rail against AA. I found that I only started finding flaws and arguments with AA after I identified that I have a problem with substances. Go figure??
Or... People who don't have substance abuse problems don't get mad when someone tries to take away their substance. I'm seriously pissed off I can't have my substances.
People who aren't alcoholics don't care that bill w. wasn't perfect, alcoholics who feel they are turning their life over to a program who was partially constructed by an LSD using womanizer care what his faults were.
-- Edited by Neophyte on Friday 27th of July 2012 03:50:46 PM
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In the end, everything will be alright. If it is not alright, it is not the end... Paulo coelho (also marigold hotel)
Stepchild - what you stated is pretty sure fire because a huge portion of real alcholics cannot stop for 90 days. I did quit on my own for 4 months prior to AA....I might have told you I was happy at 3 months, but something was really wrong cuz during that time I got an inkling that I really was miserable in my relationship, job, spiritually void - so I decided being sober "wasn't fun" and I started drinking even harder than before. So yes - it would appear that I was discontent had major problems still at being "dry" over 90 days.
Your suggestion was a good one. There are many folks that come along trying to pick arguments here and they fail to realize they are the ones doing more harm than good. It distracts from our primary purpose. The main person arguing (and yes it is arguing) with you here is one that has said nothing of their own recovery and only nitpicks others' posts. There is nothing more powerful in recovery than sharing what what it was like for you, what happened, and what it's like now. That is the foundation of AA. One person helping another - which is what I have always seen you trying to do. AA was not built on withholding solutions. Bill Wilson was revolutionary and without him we'd all be up a creek. But he was also a cheat and took LSD in "sobriety." He was just another alcholic sharing what worked for him and he (and others) stumbled upon a large amount of what seems to work. Anyone that goes "That's not what Bill said..." Whatever. Not trying to be Bill Wilson.
If other folks have a better solution, they should share it rather than make you look like you don't know what you're talking about. You are a miracle for acheiving the sobriety you have. Nobody can diminsh your views or statements because you lived it.
I would much prefer everyone share their recovery and what works for them rather than potstirring and negativity.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I also tried quitting on my own...More of an utimatum from my ex wife than anything else....I struggled for some months and I was miserable.....To the point my ex encouraged me to go back to drinking....Which I did... 10 years later and minus a wife....God planted me into AA....Without which...I'd be dead.
The Big Book has great advice in it which has helped millions of alcoholics to successfully quit alcohol and trudge the road to happy destiny. That said, it is not the be all and end all. It was written by a group of drunks, none of whom had more than four years recovery and an average of eighteen months. I am not trashing the book - on the contrary, my hat is off to them and the remarkable job they did. That the idea of 90 meetings in 90 days is not in there doesn't make it a bad idea - fact is, you couldn't go to 90 in 90 in 1939...there simply weren't 90 meetings to go to. The book is remarkable but it's not the word of God - it's the word of a bunch of drunks with a limited amount of recovery - they didn't have all the answers. Ironically, I'm about to quote the book. :)
"Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self-deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right- about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!
Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums - we could increase the list ad infinitum.
We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition."
The fellow in the big book who quit drinking on his own for 25 years... he quit, he didn't try some controlled drinking. For an alcoholic, quitting is easier than controlling your drinking. So if you have any doubts whether you're an alcoholic, do what the book says and try some controlled drinking. If, before you start, in your heart of hearts you know you are going to fail, then you already have your answer and there is no sense putting your life on the line. If however you don't know for sure - then this is the best test I know.
To Erica: I have heard MANY folks in AA suggest trying to keep your drinking limited to 2 drinks max for a good week or 2. If you are burning with anger that you cannot drink more than that, or if you fail - you have more of an answer there as well.
Of course you won't find that in the big book because that "test" involves drinking and we all know that drinking is gambling with our lives. There is always the possibility you will try this test, relapse hard and never come back.
The only real way to tell you are an alcholic is to have a moment of clarity after all your experiences add up and to just know....whatever it takes for you to get there (if that is what your HP has in store for you).
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
The only real way to tell you are an alcholic is to have a moment of clarity after all your experiences add up and to just know....whatever it takes for you to get there (if that is what your HP has in store for you).
Stepchild - what you stated is pretty sure fire because a huge portion of real alcholics cannot stop for 90 days. I did quit on my own for 4 months prior to AA....I might have told you I was happy at 3 months, but something was really wrong cuz during that time I got an inkling that I really was miserable in my relationship, job, spiritually void - so I decided being sober "wasn't fun" and I started drinking even harder than before. So yes - it would appear that I was discontent had major problems still at being "dry" over 90 days.
Your suggestion was a good one. There are many folks that come along trying to pick arguments here and they fail to realize they are the ones doing more harm than good. It distracts from our primary purpose. The main person arguing (and yes it is arguing) with you here is one that has said nothing of their own recovery and only nitpicks others' posts. There is nothing more powerful in recovery than sharing what what it was like for you, what happened, and what it's like now. That is the foundation of AA. One person helping another - which is what I have always seen you trying to do. AA was not built on withholding solutions. Bill Wilson was revolutionary and without him we'd all be up a creek. But he was also a cheat and took LSD in "sobriety." He was just another alcholic sharing what worked for him and he (and others) stumbled upon a large amount of what seems to work. Anyone that goes "That's not what Bill said..." Whatever. Not trying to be Bill Wilson.
If other folks have a better solution, they should share it rather than make you look like you don't know what you're talking about. You are a miracle for acheiving the sobriety you have. Nobody can diminsh your views or statements because you lived it.
I would much prefer everyone share their recovery and what works for them rather than potstirring and negativity.
Sounds like we got us a real live r-e-s-e-n-t-m-e-n-t there, PC.
Principles before personalities comes to mind . . . also:
I tend to agree with Tanin. I don't know of any clinical analysis of sobriety that says that 90 days of sobriety (a MAGICAL number!!!!) is any indication of whether or not one is an alcoholic. You are getting your information from people who are already engrossed in the Alcoholics Anonymous program, etc. Of course they will use that unsupported data to influence a newcomer into AA.
I am confused. Is AA a program to talk people into the idea that they are alcoholics simply because they question their drinking habits? I'm beginning to think it is.
Stepchild said: "I'm saying I've seen people put to this test and the result has always been the same..every time...It's not from the Big Book or AA and neither is 90 meetings in 90 days...That is something the rehabs started and not AA....But like the test I mentioned...90 in 90 seems to work...So I'd recommend that too."
I first got to AA way before rehabs, spin drys, or what ever they call 'em. Ninety in ninety was suggested then. Just a point of information. Peace to you.
I tend to agree with Tanin. I don't know of any clinical analysis of sobriety that says that 90 days of sobriety (a MAGICAL number!!!!) is any indication of whether or not one is an alcoholic. You are getting your information from people who are already engrossed in the Alcoholics Anonymous program, etc. Of course they will use that unsupported data to influence a newcomer into AA.
I am confused. Is AA a program to talk people into the idea that they are alcoholics simply because they question their drinking habits? I'm beginning to think it is.
I suggest if you think you have a drinking problem go to AA meetings and see for yourself. We don't recruit members. If you want what we have, stick around, and if yoiu don't leave. I don't know where you got that info.
I didn't mean to turn this thread into a debate on ways to determine whether you are an alcoholic or not....But since you all are having so much fun with it....This is my new test....If you are on an AA message board arguing the validity of this test....You either have no life....Or you are an alcoholic....Thanks for participating!
Oh step... You did a wonderful thing. Now, if she can't pass even ONE of these tests, she knows she's an alcoholic. See how many things make up the criteria of an alcoholic? And physicians say there are no tests. If each post was a different way to identify yourself as an alcoholic... We'd have like 46 different tests!!
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In the end, everything will be alright. If it is not alright, it is not the end... Paulo coelho (also marigold hotel)
I didn't mean to turn this thread into a debate on ways to determine whether you are an alcoholic or not....But since you all are having so much fun with it....This is my new test....If you are on an AA message board arguing the validity of this test....You either have no life....Or you are an alcoholic....
Yet another "sure fire test," eh? Based on whimsy, simplism, and pique, no doubt.
Stepchild said: "I'm saying I've seen people put to this test and the result has always been the same..every time...It's not from the Big Book or AA and neither is 90 meetings in 90 days...That is something the rehabs started and not AA....But like the test I mentioned...90 in 90 seems to work...So I'd recommend that too."
I first got to AA way before rehabs, spin drys, or what ever they call 'em. Ninety in ninety was suggested then. Just a point of information. Peace to you.
Here is a little ditty I found on that. It covers 13th stepping too...Which was mentioned in another thread...This is the opinion of one of the Good Old Timers.
There were two questions raised a couple of weeks ago, about "13th stepping" and "90 meetings in 90 days."
On Apr 25, 2005 "Julie" asked about the term 13th stepping: "When did AA people first start using this phrase to refer to men AA members hitting on new women in the program (and vice versa), pretending that they were going to 'help' the newcomer understand the program?"
Gilbert Gamboa raised a similar question about the phrase "90 meetings in 90 days." He believes that this recommendation came into AA teaching only in fairly recent years, and is a comparatively recent innovation.
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"Jan Baldwin" and billyk were also involved in the discussion.
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MODERATOR: I asked one of the good old-timers about this, Sgt. Bill S. (Sonoma, California), who got sober in 1948, and had a good deal of personal experience of good early AA in the New York City area (especially on Long Island), in Akron, in Texas in the 1950's, and later in California (where he moved in 1966). He was closely associated at various points with Mrs. Marty Mann, Sister Ignatia, and Searcy, among other well-known early AA figures. This is taken from the two emails he wrote in response to my questions.
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SGT. BILL S.
Dear Glenn: We used to think that all the women who were either alcoholics or the wife of an alcoholic, were the enemy. I think the reason Al-Anon became an organization was because of the paranoia that existed among the members of AA.
This morning has been wonderful for me. I have just joined the Pearl Harbor Survivors and this morning I got a call from two members, one the president of the group. The first call started with, "Is this the Primo Kid?" Primo was the name of the beer in Honolulu, and when I pitched baseball on the Army Air Corps team in Hawaii before the Second World War began, the fans up in the stands used to shout when I came out to the pitcher's mound and call me the Primo Kid. I almost collapsed when he identified himself. It was one of the men I used to play baseball with and both he and the man who called later were members of my outfit. When I told the one I was in AA for 56 years and had written two books he said I am happy that you no longer drink but I am not surprised that you wrote the books. Everyone thought that you were smart but a drunk. The second call was from another member of my Squadron who is now the president of the Pearl Harbor group.
I must admit that I never heard the term "13th Stepping" until I moved to California in 1966 and even then it was after that, in the 1980's, that I first heard the term used. However I am familiar with the basis for this slogan. When I first got sober in 1948, there was a lot of suspicion surrounding the relationship between AA members and the spouses of the alcoholics.
Early on, it was suggested that men only sponsor men and women only sponsor women. The basis for this was the suspicion that there was a lot of sexual activity between alcoholic women and male AA members.
You are right on with your reference to the transference phenomenon, which particularly affects the therapeutic relationship between a male psychiatrist and a female patient (and vice versa), but in fact will affect any counseling relationship, including AA sponsorship. The female patient begins to develop romantic feelings toward the male psychiatrist because of the degree of psychological intimacy involved (or vice versa with a female psychiatrist and a male patient). There is a tendency for some to put desire before honor.
I recall that there were very few females in my group in Valley Stream, New York, when I first got sober, and those who did attend meetings were assumed to be loose. Dependents of alcoholics attended the meetings until Al-Anon was formed and most of them became part of that group. (Many female alcoholics attend Al-Anon meetings today and vice versa.)
I truly believe that Lois assisted in the formation of the first Al-Anon group because of Bill's lust.
I do not know the origin of the "13th Stepping" saying but it was after I came to California in 1966.
Also 90 meetings in 90 days was never advocated until treatment centers sprang up and recommended that amount of time to enhance recovery (also the need for cash for treating the alcoholic).
Because I was in the military during the earlier days, many things of an historical significance in AA in the civilian sphere were unknown to me. I am sorry I cannot be more specific.
Love Bill
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REFERENCES:
Sgt. Bill S., On the Military Firing Line in the Alcoholism Treatment Program: The Air Force Sergeant Who Beat Alcoholism and Taught Others to Do the Same (2003).
I didn't mean to turn this thread into a debate on ways to determine whether you are an alcoholic or not....But since you all are having so much fun with it....This is my new test....If you are on an AA message board arguing the validity of this test....You either have no life....Or you are an alcoholic....
Yet another "sure fire test," eh? Based on whimsy, simplism, and pique, no doubt.
I took Stepchild's new test as a joke, and a funny one at that--since MOST members here, on an Alcoholics Anonymous forum, will admit to being alcoholics. Lol.
No offense to anybody... I like ya both... and I'd wave at you too Tanin... even if you are a pickle and not a cucumber.
I generally do resent annoying potstirrers who create dissension rather than unity in AA - Yes Tanin. You got me pegged. I resent that you are here but having dean kick you off the site would be far more wrong than me just tolerating you. So....welcome and I'll deal with my resentment. I'm sure you won't do any 10th step on how you've been bolding people's posts and nitpicking them and trying to get a rise out of them.
If I was stuck in a room too long with you, I probably would swallow poison hoping you to die but either way the result would be better than being stuck in the room with you.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I was also wondering if the name Tanin was supposed to be spelled Tannin. That is generally the part of the wine that leave you feeling hungover and sick right? Have a great day :)
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I think Tanin "bolds" comments so that people can reference what he is responding to. In this chat room, as others, there can be a lag in time, during which people comment on something that was said 1 to 4 or more comments prior. I highly doubt that he is doing it to be obtrusive.
I am amazed that so many of you have spewed vitriolic comments back at him. I find his comments to be thoughtful, intelligent and insightful. However, some of you have a problem with this. Is it because you are "stuck" in your way of thinking? Are you so set in your ways that you are not open to any other opinion besides your own?
And, Pink Chip, it's a very radical statement to say that you would drink poison so that you wouldn't have to read his posts is ludicrous. Where is the spirituality that AA talks about in that statement? Maybe you should go back through and do anotherfourth step.
You guys are birds of a feather...Your first post is about something you hate in AA. Some people just like to stir things up.....I don't see any point in it...But you have that right. Carry on.
I would like to think that everyone has a right to speak their mind in this forum. Maybe doing so will open other's minds to thinking that may be outside the AA box. I'm sure there are many people who read these posts, yet do not respond. These people may, or may not, find some truth in oppositional postings.
I am not anti Alchoholics Anonymous. I'm quite the opposite. However, I am all for free thinking.
Sometimes I wish more people would stand up and speak their mind. I would be refreshing.
Hootch - I don't have to like everyone in AA. Never claimed to be a saint either. Yes - People annoy me. Yes this particular person annoys me. I'll get over it. Bad drivers annoy me...mosquitoes annoy me. It's all good. I argued like this with Linbaba and now I think he's cool beans. Half the time I go off all half cocked- I realize I'm just another bozo on the bus. Hell - I'm annoying. And I do realize I come off bigheaded and I don't know all that much. it is what it is. I would state the spiritual axiom here but if I misquoted it, I'd probably get my response bolded and scolded by a nitpicky troll.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Mark (Pink chip) is human just like the rest of us. Tanin does think outside the box - I like that - it would be fun to debate with Tanin, over a cool calm collected glass of iced tea.
Mark - who also brings up excellent points, and thinks outside the box, has literally picked me up, brushed me off, kicked me in the ass, and got me moving again when I want to sit and whine all day about my petty trials. He reminds me that AA is truly about Unity. I like that - always reminding me of something bigger, and when it's just not fun anymore to debate... or helping my sobriety... and MY sobriety, HAS to be my number one concern.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
Hootch - I don't have to like everyone in AA. Never claimed to be a saint either. Yes - People annoy me. Yes this particular person annoys me. I'll get over it. Bad drivers annoy me...mosquitoes annoy me. It's all good. I argued like this with Linbaba and now I think he's cool beans. Half the time I go off all half cocked- I realize I'm just another bozo on the bus. Hell - I'm annoying. And I do realize I come off bigheaded and I don't know all that much. it is what it is. I would state the spiritual axiom here but if I misquoted it, I'd probably get my response bolded and scolded by a nitpicky troll.
Since we're going the same way, let's go together. We may have some differences, but let's work them out and respect each other's opionions. Since our goal is the same, you help me and I'll help you.
But let's never withhold love as a weapon against one another. Since we are held together by a critical common solution, let's not cause one another any suffering.
Am I learning to emphasize our common purpose?
Higher Power, help me see that what we share in the fellowship is more important than what seperates us.
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
So.....some old timers in my homegroup like to share this about folks who wonder if they are really alcoholic: Most typical/normal drinkers don't sit around trying to figure out if they are alcoholics. Peace.
