Church?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Church?

Skeptical75 · Member

Hi...I'm new to AA. When I told my sponsor I was thinking about going back to church, was told I was "managing" and AA was most important. Not church. But this is a "spiritual" program, right? So...is he a dick or is he right?

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
Hi...I'm new to AA. When I told my sponsor I was thinking about going back to church, was told I was "managing" and AA was most important. Not church. But this is a "spiritual" program, right? So...is he a dick or is he right?

I don't know what he means by "managing." Managing what?

You might take a look at the pamphlet titled "Questions & Answers On Sponsorship.

Sponsorship Pamphlet
http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=161&product=17

Among other things, it describes 17 things that an AA sponsor does. One of them is:

Never tries to impose personal views on the newcomer. A good sponsor who is an atheist does not try to persuade a religious newcomer to abandon faith, nor does a religious sponsor argue theological matters with an agnostic newcomer.

From my experience, I don't know of any steps, writings or principles in the AA progam that would conflict with going to a church or pursuing one's religion.

Welcome to the forum, S75.

Frodo · MIP Old Timer

I'd say that if you find church works for you then by all means do it. If it doesn't then don't do it. Plenty in my group attend church but it isn't my thing.

Skeptical75 · Member

Thanks. I know that. My question is why would an AA sponsor tell someone nothing comes before AA? It's a question I've asked a lot of people. If this is a spiritual condition, and the answer it to attend as many meetings as possible, why isn't it a religion? I keep meeting guys who have been sober for 5 or 9 years and go to meetings daily.

So where's the spiritual solution if you've made meetings your higher power?

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I can tell you from what I've seen in my time in AA....I've seen a lot more people get sober in AA than I have in Church....If it's a spritual solution for your alcoholism you're looking for.....That would be AA. Meetings are where we go to carry the message to the newcomer...Imagine how well this would work if everyone got sober and hit the road....It wouldn't last long would it?.....I go to meetings because I love them....I go to church now and then...But I do most of my prayer and meditation on my own.....I like to pray too.

Skeptical75 · Member

Thought so. So you're higher power is AA? Nuff said.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

No...My higher power is God....My solution to my alcoholism is AA. Where do I work step 12?...In meetings...Where do I pray to my God?....Anywhere I want. You should switch your name from Skeptical to Openminded and hang around awhile....Maybe read the Big Book a time or two. It's a program that works...If you want it to work...And you work it.

Neophyte · Senior Member

If your not abandoning meetings... I don't see aa and any other form of organized religion to be opposing forces. I mean... If both aa and church are a source of comfort for you, why not get what you can out of both settings?

Skeptical75 · Member

Ok. I was asking about my sponsor and priorities. Not guidance. IE is tat normal to tell a sponsee ???

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

If you are going to trust your sponsor to take you through this program...You should be asking him.

Skeptical75 · Member

I found his answer wrong and controlling. Others thought the same thing. This logic of "trust your sponsor" ignore your instinct is so convoluted. If I can't trust my instincts, yet have to trust my sponsor, whats to prevent shame or worse from an incorrect sponsor?

ANYONEnwho insists that AA is more important than your house of worship never read the Big Book closely. AA is just a means to God. It is not the only means. And to tell someone AA comes first is saying AA is a religion.

As well, this sponsor said I HAD to come to this one particular AA meeting each night. The 5:45 wasn't enough, and he wanted several meetings a day, at this one place.

He CLEARLY didn't want me going to church. He didn't fail to explain anything. His intention was obvious.

Yikes. No wonder so few people stick around. This program can be rife with abusive and controlling people (I know, AA junkines...I can't think for myself, it's my disease that is making a lot of sense. My concerns are pretty valid).

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
I found his answer wrong and controlling. Others thought the same thing. This logic of "trust your sponsor" ignore your instinct is so convoluted. If I can't trust my instincts, yet have to trust my sponsor, whats to prevent shame or worse from an incorrect sponsor?

ANYONEnwho insists that AA is more important than your house of worship never read the Big Book closely. AA is just a means to God. It is not the only means. And to tell someone AA comes first is saying AA is a religion.

As well, this sponsor said I HAD to come to this one particular AA meeting each night. The 5:45 wasn't enough, and he wanted several meetings a day, at this one place.

He CLEARLY didn't want me going to church. He didn't fail to explain anything. His intention was obvious.

Yikes. No wonder so few people stick around. This program can be rife with abusive and controlling people (I know, AA junkines...I can't think for myself, it's my disease that is making a lot of sense. My concerns are pretty valid).

I did not say that AA comes first ... I said your sobriety should come first ... AA is your best chance of that happening ... the experience in AA will enhance your time at church ... it's a win-win situation ... and you're right... AA is one means to God ... AA is a spiritual means to stay sober and should not impose on any religious beliefs you possess ...

I would choose another sponsor that has similar religious beliefs that you have ... it might make the journey a lot easier ...

Pappy

TigressErica · Veteran Member

Skeptical75 wrote:
Hi...I'm new to AA. When I told my sponsor I was thinking about going back to church, was told I was "managing" and AA was most important. Not church. But this is a "spiritual" program, right? So...is he a dick or is he right?

I would lean towards "dick" but I don't know his reasoning for saying that...

Neophyte wrote:
If your not abandoning meetings... I don't see aa and any other form of organized religion to be opposing forces. I mean... If both aa and church are a source of comfort for you, why not get what you can out of both settings?

Absolutely!!!

Skeptical75 wrote:
I found his answer wrong and controlling. Others thought the same thing. This logic of "trust your sponsor" ignore your instinct is so convoluted. If I can't trust my instincts, yet have to trust my sponsor, whats to prevent shame or worse from an incorrect sponsor?

ANYONEnwho insists that AA is more important than your house of worship never read the Big Book closely. AA is just a means to God. It is not the only means. And to tell someone AA comes first is saying AA is a religion.

As well, this sponsor said I HAD to come to this one particular AA meeting each night. The 5:45 wasn't enough, and he wanted several meetings a day, at this one place.

He CLEARLY didn't want me going to church. He didn't fail to explain anything. His intention was obvious.

Yikes. No wonder so few people stick around. This program can be rife with abusive and controlling people (I know, AA junkines...I can't think for myself, it's my disease that is making a lot of sense. My concerns are pretty valid).

Sounds like you knew the answer before you posted... and I agree with your answer. If my sponsor told me not to go to church... I'd be dropping that sponsor on the spot. There are bad apples in EVERY community... please don't judge everybody based just on him...

Skeptical75 · Member

Thank you all. Appreciate your feedback.

Frodo · MIP Old Timer

With a sponsor I take what I can use and leave the rest. If I need a hard and fast guide then I look in the Big Book. To me the Big Book trumps any number of sponsors. That's my take. Book and steps are gospel. The sponsors and meetings guides.

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Hello Skeptical and welcome to MIP!

I would also suggest looking at the suggestions in the SPONSORSHIP PAMPHLET, especially the line that Tanin put up...(see below). Creating resentments early in the process can be sidestepped by discussing this more in depth with your sponsor and see exactly where that person is coming from. A sponsor is just another person in recovery who has more experience working the steps and hopefully instilling the spiritual principles in the attitudes and behaviors of their own lives and are there to help you thru. I do understand early on their is resistance to some suggestions(keep it on me here)but there is nothing wrong with sitting down and seeing where you sponsor is coming from...Reading into the origin of A.A and the backround can give you a better understanding of where a lot of the concepts developed,from the orignal steps,the Oxford Group ,Frank Buchman,DR Bobs severe religiosity,etc..(spelling?) etc. I have also seen sponsors tell their sponsees forget about church and concentrate on the program.I have been going to church for 28 years consistently(a little less than my total surrender to the illness in 1984 after 25 years of oblivion) ,,pray without ceasing daily and feel also that any 2 people gathered in God's name is church,not always just a building where we meet.This is something you'll have to work out with your sponsor,its probably not unusual from what I have seen thru the years.My own sponsor and grandsponsor both attend church(their own) and WE have a very strong spiritual connection.I do truly believe we suffer from an incurable illness of body ,mind and spirit and that we were(are) in the grip of a hopeless dilemma the solution of which is spiritual in nature.Talk with your sponsor,continue working the process and More will be revealed.Let us know how you make out.Have a blessed and productive day.......Peace

Skeptical75 · Member

Ah. Negotiate with someone who is obviously wrong, and let them keep reminding me I am weak and can't think for myself, and that even my daily routines need to be scrutinized.

Talk to someone who isn't even open-minded enough to let me choose what meetings to attend, since I am weak and can't think for myself.

Nah. Im more important than that.

Or, I can attend Celebrate Recovery, where people are actually positive and hopeful, and remind us that God, not a program, does the healing.

My beef is that anyone in AA can be a sponsor, with no oversight or training.

Y'all do realize you have a ton of just plain controlling and bad sponsors floating round, right? No process in place to keep bad ones out.

Sorry to be so honest, but it isn't my disease talking. It's wisdom.

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Yup, we can always get a new sponsor,if we are serious about working the program. A.A is a program for people who want it not necessarily need it.There are many different roads to recovery,WE are responsible for OUR own recovery. This program is merely suggestive...We realize that one thing more than anything else will defeat us in our recovery and that is an indifference or intolerence to spiriual principles, and 3 of these mentioned are honesty,openmindedness and willingness. Our primary purpose(pg77) is to serve God and others. For me, I continue to show up because part of my spiritual being is also Loving God above all things and my neighbor as myself, WE GIVE BACK serving God and others to the best of our ability Giving back at my church and also at the program help me to serve God and others to the best of my ability.(sharing,12th step work,service,sponsorship,etc)..If our best thinking got us here, we may want to look inside and think maybe there might be other suggestions that could help us... I know ,for me, self sponsorship didn't work.....Keep coming back, WE SUGGEST keeping God (of your understanding) on top of all things and more will be revealed. If we believe WE suffer from a physical,mental and spiritual illness,then once we put the poison down,the work begins,(getting to the exact nature of why we use) If we believe its just about the substance ,then we may approach our recovery in a different way.you are absolutely correct ,it is the grace and mercy of God that has allowed us to make the decision to 'find a new way to live' or go on to the same jails,institutions,deriliction or death. I pray the God of your understanding leads you on a journey of LIFE(peace,serenity and sobriety).......Have a blessed and productive day........ smile

-- Edited by mikef on Wednesday 25th of July 2012 10:27:14 AM

Bryan39 · Senior Member

Im at work on my phone i will post again tomorrow. I go to church i tell people in aa that if you believe in the god of the bible as your aa "higher power" as i do you will likely have to go to church to really connect with your hp.

TigressErica · Veteran Member

Skeptical75 wrote:
Ah. Negotiate with someone who is obviously wrong, and let them keep reminding me I am weak and can't think for myself, and that even my daily routines need to be scrutinized.

Talk to someone who isn't even open-minded enough to let me choose what meetings to attend, since I am weak and can't think for myself.

Nah. Im more important than that.

Or, I can attend Celebrate Recovery, where people are actually positive and hopeful, and remind us that God, not a program, does the healing.

My beef is that anyone in AA can be a sponsor, with no oversight or training.

Y'all do realize you have a ton of just plain controlling and bad sponsors floating round, right? No process in place to keep bad ones out.

Sorry to be so honest, but it isn't my disease talking. It's wisdom.

It really sounds like you might be right about this particular person. To some extent... I think I need to just trust any command given by my sponsor (within reason) knowing they are further along in recovery and probably more mentally stable than myself. Of course... I carefully chose who I wanted to sponsor me, based on hearing her shares, determining whose "story" I related to most, then talked to that person more one-on-one kinda interviewing her without her knowing I was hoping she might be my sponsor, and once I determined I liked her and she seemed respectable and all that... THEN I asked if she would be my sponsor.

I have also done a little looking into Celebrate Recovery... At first it sounded like yet another 12-Step programming using AA's literature and steps and traditions, but worded in a way to encompass all addictions and being more specifically Christian. Upon checking out their site... that doesn't appear to be the case... I may attend a meeting just to see what it's like as well as continue AA... I just believe it won't HURT anything to try and recover in more ways than 1... and drop whatever method(s) just aren't working.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
Ah. Negotiate with someone who is obviously wrong, and let them keep reminding me I am weak and can't think for myself, and that even my daily routines need to be scrutinized.

You know...You need to do what is right for you...I listened to things I didn't necessarily want to hear early on....Because my thinking and daily routines got me into all the trouble I was in to begin with. You seem pretty set in your ways about how you want to do this thing....I hope and pray it works out for you.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I am sure glad AA worked for me and I was not so tortured and angry about committing to it. I feel blessed. My daily routines did need to be questioned - Even if AA is "brainwashing or cultish" in any way, that is a huge improvement over they way I used to function. I don't go to meetings 7 days a week - though I did in the beginning cuz I needed that. I needed a good brainwashing anyhow cuz my brain was filled with junk.

Of course the AA program isn't going to work for you when you have so many misgivings about it. I do think you are misinformed about AA or might have had some bad experiences. Sorry for that. Wish there was some way to compensate for that. Please keep coming back here and share whatever it is you learn that helps you stay sober. That is really our common purpose anyhow.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Pythonpappy wrote:
Skeptical75 wrote:
He CLEARLY didn't want me going to church. He didn't fail to explain anything. His intention was obvious.

Yikes. No wonder so few people stick around. This program can be rife with abusive and controlling people (I know, AA junkines...I can't think for myself, it's my disease that is making a lot of sense. My concerns are pretty valid).

I would choose another sponsor that has similar religious beliefs that you have ... it might make the journey a lot easier ...

Pappy

Well, we all have to make choices in AA. But we shouldn't have to choose on the basis of "similar religous beliefs." In fact, AA specifically says clearly and repeatedly, including in the Sponsorship pamphlet, that our religious beliefs should not be forced onto others.

A newcomer should be able to seek and get a sponsor using criteria that relate to the program of AA--not religious background. A person's theology is his own affair, AA says.

The religion of the sponsor, if any, doesn't really matter. The religion of the sponsee, if any, doesn't really matter.

What matters is the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. And our primary purpose is to stay sober and help others to achieve sobriety.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Amen Tanin.

Skeptical75 · Member

Quote:

--"Even if AA is "brainwashing or cultish" in any way, that is a huge improvement over they way I used to function. I don't go to meetings 7 days a week - though I did in the beginning cuz I needed that. I needed a good brainwashing anyhow cuz my brain was filled with junk." --

??HUh? Really?

That's the part that seems like it opens the door to abuse and control. Sorry...I understand my life and choices being questioned. I don't understand only doing it another person's way.

And...I still wonder why people who have 5 years sober attend meetings EVERY DAY. Yikes.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
I don't understand only doing it another person's way.

And...I still wonder why people who have 5 years sober attend meetings EVERY DAY. Yikes.

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path....As far as why people attend meetings at 5 years sober goes.....I guess you have to have 5 years to find that out.

Skeptical75 · Member

Ah....ok.

But replies like Stepchild's is totally circular: " Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path....As far as why people attend meetings at 5 years sober goes.....I guess you have to have 5 years to find that out."

But when those same people seem angry, miserable, and quirte dogmatic, I should ignore that too?

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

You should ignore that yes. Most folks in AA are not angry, miserable, and dogmatic. They are pretty emphatic about AA and you can probably understand that. For most us, we feel like AA saved our lives so that does lend towards being very serious about AA, the steps, how it works....etc. It probably comes off as dogmatic - yes. I will grant you that. Mostly people with lots of sobriety time go to many meeting so they can be of service to the newcomer. It's not a ball and chain, it's a pleasant lifestyle and value change that facilitates this.

My only point in mentioning the term "brainwashing" is that "My way" was not working. AA was a better way and I had to let that happen for my own good. A huge step for me was just getting humble enough to admit "maybe I don't know what's best for me because it was me that got me in this mess to start with." If all I did was argue and be skeptical, i would have argued my way back to a bottle every time...or at best been a very irritable dry drunk.

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
But when those same people seem angry, miserable, and quirte dogmatic, I should ignore that too?

Of course...If all the people in AA I knew were like that...I'd be dead. I tend to surround myself with people that have had those promises come true....It's wonderful. I've seen people come into AA and look for any reason it won't work for them....You don't see them around for long....Myself....I can't find anything wrong with it. I guess that's why I keep coming back.....I wish you the best with whatever you decide to do....When I read that book these words stood out for me....So much truth.
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps.
At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
bb pg 58

vixen · MIP Old Timer

I have no problem with my sponsor having different beliefs than I do. I would look for another sponsor though if the one I had tried to discourage me from attending church. I am a Christian alcoholic and work the AA program and Celebrate Recovery. It's not an either or thing. Both programs are based on the twelve steps which are the best solution I have found to stay sober and develop spiritually. I picked my AA sponsor based on that person having what I want. She is positive, caring, loving and wise, as are many people in both programs. There are grumps and angry people in both programs as well. I tend to hang with the winners. :)

Good luck to you!

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Skeptical75 wrote:
Quote:

--"Even if AA is "brainwashing or cultish" in any way, that is a huge improvement over they way I used to function. I don't go to meetings 7 days a week - though I did in the beginning cuz I needed that. I needed a good brainwashing anyhow cuz my brain was filled with junk." --

??HUh? Really?

That's the part that seems like it opens the door to abuse and control. Sorry...I understand my life and choices being questioned. I don't understand only doing it another person's way.

Yah, I don't like the aspersions/language of brainwashing and cultishness. But there is occasionally some truth to it (e.g., Midtown Group in D.C.). Bad business, that. The intent of PC's input here is, I think, just that a severe change in thinking had to occur to go from a state of active to abstaining alkie. Some sponsors and members use a brusque and dominating approach with some newcomers. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it fails.

In the end, it's up to the newcomer to take responsibility for his/her sobriety. Do what you have to, getting the help you need to, to stay sober. Remember too, that a sponsor doesn't get you sober. It is the program of AA that gets you sober.

One thought popped into my head regarding sponsorship. That is, no sponsor is required. You can eschew a sponsor if you want. Many thousands of AA members do not have a sponsor. I did that for several years. It worked. Now, I have a sponsor. It's working. Talked to him at a meeting today.

Skeptical75 wrote:

And...I still wonder why people who have 5 years sober attend meetings EVERY DAY. Yikes.

I know that some members with 5 years sobriety go to meetings every day. But that's not all that prevalent. According to AA, the average is 2.4 meetings/week attended by members. If ALL the folks with 5 years went to meetings every day, that number would be lots higher.

In my time in AA I've gone through periods where I attended 2-4 meetings/wk, 3 to 4 meetiings a week, 2 meetings/week, 1 meeting/wk, 1 meeting every two weeks, 2 meetings/wk, 5 meetings a week, 7 to 8 a week, 10-12 meetings a week . . . .to now when I go to 5 meetings weekly.

As to how many meetings should a member go to in a week, a month, 90 days.....well, it depends. Go to as many as you need and want.

Our primary purpose is to stay sober . . .

Skeptical75 · Member

I am so glad you all gave this feedback. Thank you...

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

You know what I like to see in AA more than anything Skeptical?....And I'm sure there are a lot that feel the same way.....I like to see people get what I found....That is pure joy for me.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

CHURCH ??? ... ... ... ... .... Don't know about anybody else out there, but 99% of all meetings I've ever attended? ... guess what? ... they were held at a Church building ... !!! ... ... ... Maybe it wouldn't hurt anything to participate in some church services after all ...

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

There was a guy talking in a meeting last month....He was from out of town...And he brought up the subject that someone had asked him if he was planning on going to meetings the rest of his life...And he said to the guy....Would you ask someone that goes to church if they plan on going to church the rest of their life?....It's a good point....There are many in AA that have a Higher Power that doesn't have a church....That's the beauty of the program...God as you understand God. I like to go to church...I also like to go to meetings....It's a good thing....Because I think I need them both.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

AMEN ... ... Stepchild ... take what you need, leave the rest!!!

Neophyte · Senior Member

SPOILER ALERT! (aa was partially derived out of a Christian based organization... So technically the two meld together nicely... If that's what the person decides to do)

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

AMEN Neo, ...

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