Atheist and Agnostic meeting

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Atheist and Agnostic meeting

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Hi Dabent,

My experience is that the AA program offers you to understand God in any way you desire, you can also substitute the term "Higher Power" in leu of God.

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Still I know many have a problem with the word "God" even though AA allows a extremely broad personal interpretation? So the hang-up usually comes from how other English speaking people define the word "God".

I can't believe in a God even though I think it/he can be defined a "X", but because others define him as "Y", I dislike the term. Given the above, I don't see why there would be a need for separate groups or wording in the steps. The time would be better spent in us working to change our interpretation of the word "God". We spent our whole lives trying to change the world to suit us, this provides a good opportunity to work on ourselves. Just my experience. Identify don't compare, work on changing us. Take Care, Rob

-- Edited by Rob84 on Monday 2nd of July 2012 01:18:04 PM

Dabent · Veteran Member

Not really looking for a God debate here. More of people's experiences with others and other groups in this realm.

Knew a kid who would run out of every meeting before the prayer at the end but he keep coming back anyway (don't know if he's still sober?). That's the type of people my friends are trying to reach. That is because my friends think just like him. I just want people's experiences with any atheist in AA but more of groups inside of AA. I have looked up all the SOS, RR ect ect stuff and we are not looking at that kind of group. We want atheist AA meeting but will follow the traditions of AA and guidelines for an AA group.

I tell you this much, spending hours on researching this topic, talking about it and trying to get a new meeting organized over the last couple weeks has kept me sober and happy during a real rough patch in my life.

Haha, I'm not an atheist but I am doing all the leg work to get this group going. I'm disabled and have the time to help and they asked. So I ask you all if you have anything to help get this going speak up. Please

-- Edited by Dabent on Monday 2nd of July 2012 03:29:08 PM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I'm not looking for a debate either ... But I have to question how BB Studies would be accomplished leaving 'God' out of the meetings ??? ... For instance, how would such a group teach the healing powers found in AA or in the program as a whole ... Does anyone know where the passage below came from? ... AND how this would be explained in such a group as is trying to be established here, without 'God' ??? ...

"If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me!" But later, alone in his room, he asked himself this question: "Is it possible that all the religious people I have known are wrong?" While pondering the answer he felt as though he lived in hell. Then, like a thunderbolt, a great thought came. It crowded out all else:

"Who are you to say there is no God?"

This man recounts that he tumbled out of bed to his knees. In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God. It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood. The barriers he had built through the years were swept away. He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love. He had stepped from bridge to shore. For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.

Thus was our friend's cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it dis-appeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the though of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.

What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker-then he knew.

Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.

When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!

So my question I guess is really this ... ... ... How do you teach and live the program without even mentioning God's name ? ... or at least giving the choice to those in attendance that might heal more quickly if they did, in fact, hear of God in this program and pray to Him for help ... I certainly would NOT want to have any part to do with a program that might just have an impact on someone's soul being lost forever ... Whether I believed in God or not, I would not want to portray myself as 'going along' with this business ... IMO it's a very dangerous path to be on ...

God Bless,
Pappy

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Monday 2nd of July 2012 04:51:11 PM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

I'm definitely in the middle of the road here. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if all references to "God" in the literature were replaced with "Higher Power". It's long overdue, and given the non-denomenational aspect of the AA spiritual program, it shouldn't mater, although the Christian fundementalists wouldn't be happy about it, and would site the similar complaints that they do about
our Country's Christian roots. I gotta say that that's the worst butcher job that I've seen on the 12 steps. I could do a better job in 10 minutes. Not much thought was given by the author. The biggest problem with a no higher power approach to the steps, is not much of a chance for ego reduction.

In my opinion, most atheists don't want to move off of center to allow the possibility that there IS a power greater then themselves. And in recovery, that's a problem. I'm not saying that you can't get sober by that means, but why tie your own hands behind your back? Putting the sauce down is just the entrance fee here. Emotional sobriety, and reintegration into society (Read Relationships) is the end game. If my higher power is Me, it's a long haul.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 2nd of July 2012 05:05:34 PM

Dabent · Veteran Member

I did a search on this and didn't come up with much except a thread or 2 from 2005

A few people have come to me to help them get a new group started. No God is their thing. what I want to know is what kind of fall out will there be, if any, for changing the steps to not have God, to try and limit people from talking about the big eye in the sky? If anyone has any experience with a group like this would love to here more.

I'm not a big deity guy, more along the native American's beliefs everything is one, a big spirit ect ect. But this is not about me. I want to hear about others with atheist/agnostic beliefs and how they interpret the steps. Want to hear about non God groups people have been to.

I have found my meetings like this around the globe and their formats and step are different but still the steps still AA. Here is a example of the steps...What you think? I didn't write these (I'm not that smart) just copied and pasted.

An Agnostic Version of the Twelve Steps

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol-that attempts to control our drinking were futile and that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that even though we could not fix our problem by ourselves, circumstances and forces beyond our personal control could help restore us to sanity and balance.

3. Made a decision to accept things that were outside our control, especially what already is and to do the best with it.

4. Made a searching examination and a fearless inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves with total openness and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Became willing to let go of our behaviors and personality traits that could be construed as defects and were creating problems.

7. With humility we acknowledged that we had these shortcomings and with openness we sought to eliminate these shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through contemplation and meditation to improve self-awareness and adopted a spiritual approach to life as our primary purpose.

12. Having had a profound change in consciousness as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

gonee · MIP Old Timer

Try it and see if it works.

mikef · MIP Old Timer

Hello Dan and welcome to MIP!

As you are speaking to forming a totally new different 12 step program I agree with Gonee all you can do is try it.I would also suggest,if you haven't already read 'WE AGNOSTICS' page 44 thry 57 in the BIG Book Alcoholics Anonymous, give it a look.Excellent backround for those struggling with a God concept and also remember WE are free to choose a God of our own understanding in OUR program ,even if that is no god at all.Coming to believe ,even for those who may not believe any dogma or exact science can also be an ongoing process.Good luck ..Blessings of the day.. smile

Dabent · Veteran Member

I'm talking about an AA meeting (Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.). I have a higher power that works in my life. I once was an atheist but now I see things in a new light. So it would seem to me that if that's what it takes to get someone in the doors of AA and share my story with them I am for it.

Has anyone had experience on how the district/area/region will act to this? I live in a progressive area so I'm sure we will welcomed with open arms. None the less I still love everyone's input.

@Pythonpappy I do not disagree with you but it is that get God or die attitude that my friends want to get away from. They do not think like you do but they want sobriety as bad as you do.

And from AA Comes of Age (1957) Bill W. wrote: "...this was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief."

The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

rrib · Senior Member

I knew someone once who tried out a program called 'Rational Recovery' and think you can find them on-line too.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Dabent wrote:
Somehow when I read the passage God is everything or he is nothing it fit right into my atheist beliefs at the time. It has grown to something much bigger. After 27 years in and out of the program this time something is different. (Oh yeah that higher power thing.) I have more time since my last drink than all my previous attempts put together. Like I said before I don't do the "big eye in the sky" kind of God. If I had to say I am atheist with a great higher power. That's an oxymoron LOL.
This is why I seek information I want to carry the message to all who will hear. If that mean supporting an atheist meeting to try and get someone to a "real" meeting. If it means supporting someone who wants sobriety but can't take God at the moment then if I can I should help.

One of the girls who wants this group I meet up at CCYPAA (Colorado conv of young peps in AA) a few months ago. She was on the fence about the entire alcoholic thing and whether she was one or not. I asked her about her beliefs in God. She is rigid atheist. I told her how I drank. I told her how i do not believe in a deity type God. I told her how happy i was now. The scowl on her face melted away, she smiled, she cried, she talked. She has been sober and active in young peoples AA since. AA is about one drunk talking to another. If it means talking about the non existence of God and it will keep me and them sober that day it is a win win.

I'm not very familiar with your community, but maybe having non AA related assesment groups, or offering to help local counselors or DUI schools, reaching out to those in need of help who you might be able to help pave a way into AA for. It's very commendable that you are looking for unique ways to help alcoholics in your area.

It seems like you have a good understanding of 12th step work...tell our story if they are interested tell them you can help, if not you wish to be a friend as it states in the book.

We all have to be honest, openminded and be willing to put some of our old beliefs aside. Some would rather be true to their ideals and die alcoholic, all we can do carry the message, what they so with it is up to them.

I was agnostic when I came to AA and was not fond of the God talk. But alcohol had beat me into a state of reasonableness and I became openminded and realized where my wonderful thinking had gotten me thus far.

-- Edited by Rob84 on Monday 2nd of July 2012 08:43:50 PM

Ruhig · Senior Member

I'm confused. My higher power is not anthropomorphic. It is neither poly or monotheistic. And i do not diefy it. I chhose to destinguish the two based on capitalization. [God is anthropomorphic and usually monotheistic, god-or as I call it universe- is a concept]

So, if because my sanity comes from a non entity, nonanthropomorphic, nontheistic, what was your face before your parents were born type of believe, does that mean I chose no god?!?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Very well stated Dean .... and I thank you for your input ...

Pappy

Dabent · Veteran Member

Somehow when I read the passage God is everything or he is nothing it fit right into my atheist beliefs at the time. It has grown to something much bigger. After 27 years in and out of the program this time something is different. (Oh yeah that higher power thing.) I have more time since my last drink than all my previous attempts put together. Like I said before I don't do the "big eye in the sky" kind of God. If I had to say I am atheist with a great higher power. That's an oxymoron LOL.
This is why I seek information I want to carry the message to all who will hear. If that mean supporting an atheist meeting to try and get someone to a "real" meeting. If it means supporting someone who wants sobriety but can't take God at the moment then if I can I should help.

One of the girls who wants this group I meet up at CCYPAA (Colorado conv of young peps in AA) a few months ago. She was on the fence about the entire alcoholic thing and whether she was one or not. I asked her about her beliefs in God. She is rigid atheist. I told her how I drank. I told her how i do not believe in a deity type God. I told her how happy i was now. The scowl on her face melted away, she smiled, she cried, she talked. She has been sober and active in young peoples AA since. AA is about one drunk talking to another. If it means talking about the non existence of God and it will keep me and them sober that day it is a win win.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Lack of desperation is a horrible thing. Imagine a person falls off of a cruise ship in the middle of the night, floats for days, figures that the end is near. Then a ship pulls up and throws out a life saver ring and the person in the water complains about it being the wrong color.

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

We have meetings in our area for just about anyone, including atheists and agnostics. So I don't see anything wrong with that, personally -just as long as it remains inclusive, just like an A.A. meeting should. Remember, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, regardless of their beliefs. And any group who tries to thwart that tradition should dissolve itself from A.A. altogether.

I've been to a couple of interesting forums myself and can honestly say it wasn't half bad. They didn't approach the topic from just a secularist viewpoint -like some groups do, but allowed for an open and honest discussion on everything from religion to spirituality. So it wouldn't bother me one bit, just as long as it remains fair and impartial, though. A.A. should be for everyone -not just a select few, and I think anyone would agree with me on that.

Let's face it; they're still alcoholics same as us, except for some ideological differences, that's all. And there's nothing wrong with that. They can lay claim to whatever spiritual avenue they so choose -whether that includes atheism, agnosticism or AA's definition of a higher power, that's their own preference. The only problem I foresee happening is when others disagree. Then, the debate can turn ugly. However, that's for later discussion.

So, again, I don't have a problem with these groups, personally. But that's just me. I just hope they would include everyone though, not just secularists and non religious types, because it's A.A. you know and not someone's own version of one. As far as I'm concerned, exclusivity of any type is non-negotiable; not now, not ever. So remember that before you proceed further, okay. Good luck...

~God Bless~

-- Edited by Mr_David on Wednesday 4th of July 2012 10:52:23 PM

mikef · MIP Old Timer

I lean with Dean here ,although I have my own very strong faith beliefs I do work hard to keep my words in a "spiritual" manner as not to "turn away" anyone who may be suffering from our illness.I will tell you about my beliefs if asked outside of a meeting etc. The Oxford Group with its beliefs, Bill's realization that it wasn't working until he installed"as we understand Him" and even the reference to male gender(Him) can be disconcerting.This issue has been addressed at area and world meetings and so far hasn't flown.I do believe in time "Higher Power" as we understand Higher Power may finally settle in. I know for many addicts that wished Bill had designated himself an addict(bringing alcohol inclusive of a drug and also an addiction.as addiction to alcohol.. We put down the poison, get into the "solution" the steps,apply them in the daily actions and behaviors of our lives and MORE IS ALWAYS REVEALED//Didnt want to jump on your post DABENT,just wanted to chime in on this..Traditions,steps,concepts,how we share ,our words we use all have been in debate for a long time.Just For Today I will continue to pursue our primary purpose of being of maximum service to God and to others to the best of my ability ,following guidelines of our program and keeping what I need and leaving the rest for future reference..

Db1105 · Senior Member

Once you rewrite the steps, then it's no longer Alcoholics Anonymous. The whole premise of AA is based on a belief of a power greater than oneself. Could be Buddah, Jesus, a rock, a gorilla, the sun, or anything greater than the alcoholic. Not really to much to ask for a good chance to beat the disease. The bottom line for me was that my will, my way, and my willpower did diddly squat when trying to stop drinking. So, I did it someone's else's way ( the AA fellowship) and I've been sober for a long time. For what I've seen, those who do it their way usually fail. A belief in a power greater than oneself and religion are two different things. It's a matter of putting One's ego in check to grasp the concept. I'm still as agnostic as the day I stopped drinking. Many an alcoholic has Horton sober without the use of a religious god.

Dabent · Veteran Member

We had our 1st get together tonight, went well. The most out spoken atheist agrees we need to not be all inclusive and also try to attract the believers. It's a yen yang thing. Less God but not no God. It is going to be a challenge that is for sure!

I am working on finishing my CAC classes so I can be of maximum service outside of AA. We will be asking the local DUI school tomorrow if we can trade services (cleaning, yard work whatever) for space to hold this meeting. If no meeting space we still are asking for things we can do if any. Being disabled sucks most days but days like today are FUCKING great. I have herd form at least a half a dozen people on this subject. Whether you agree or not we are still talking recovery and that's what keeps me sober.

Telling my buddy some of the things that were said in this thread made him do some double takes and rethinks. He's warming up to my description of my higher power (there is always hope). Put simply, my higher power is the force and I am trying to become a Jedi. Falls in the atheist category and the God category ;). Still allowing for one hella spiritual experience/s.

"Lack of desperation is a horrible thing. Imagine a person falls off of a cruise ship in the middle of the night, floats for days, figures that the end is near. Then a ship pulls up and throws out a life saver ring and the person in the water complains about it being the wrong color. "
I laughed hard on that one. I'll be using that, thank you.

@Rob very wise words, thank you.

@Dean "I could do a better job in 10 minutes" That's what I am looking for, help. I am a terrible writer I couldn't do better on my best day. I am so open to suggestions.

Dabent · Veteran Member

Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

The only rules that we have in Alcoholics Anonymous are those which we impose upon ourselves. We do not force people (or groups, districts or areas) to conform to our will. While conformity to the principles set out in our 12 Steps is suggested, it is still only a suggestion.
If a group chooses to use its own interpretation of our Steps and Traditions, they should have the freedom to do so. However, this should be kept within that group for those who agree and not placed in the public domain as representing or related to Alcoholics Anonymous.
We need always keep in mind that wherever two people gather to share and recover from Alcoholism, they may be called an AA Group provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation.

Db1105 wrote:

Once you rewrite the steps, then it's no longer Alcoholics Anonymous. The whole premise of AA is based on a belief of a power greater than oneself. Could be Buddah, Jesus, a rock, a gorilla, the sun, or anything greater than the alcoholic. Not really to much to ask for a good chance to beat the disease. The bottom line for me was that my will, my way, and my willpower did diddly squat when trying to stop drinking. So, I did it someone's else's way ( the AA fellowship) and I've been sober for a long time. For what I've seen, those who do it their way usually fail. A belief in a power greater than oneself and religion are two different things. It's a matter of putting One's ego in check to grasp the concept. I'm still as agnostic as the day I stopped drinking. Many an alcoholic has Horton sober without the use of a religious god.

Angell · Senior Member

Dabent,

You asked, " what I want to know is what kind of fall out will there be, if any, for changing the steps to not have God, to try and limit people from talking about the big eye in the sky? If anyone has any experience with a group like this would love to here more."

A number of groups have started over the years, mostly AA groups who called the group 'We Agnostics'. Turns out it didn't much matter what their geographical location was, they seemed to settle on that name...which is kind of humorous if you ask me - not real creative but humorous.

I have never had the pleasure of attending one of these groups but know that there has backlash. In Toronto for instance, two such groups were pulled from the meeting list by intergroup.

One of my favorite grapevine articles is The Dilemma of No Faith by Bill Wilson. In it he says that while we (AA) might have cured 300,000 alcoholics (this was 1961), we might have chased another half million away because of spiritual pride and the whole 'God' thing. It is my opinion after entering this program 34 years ago and over after twenty years continuous sobriety, that it hasn't gotten better. We pay lip service to a higher power of your choosing and even no god at all but you can't turn your will and your life over to the group, or the doorknob, or electricity. Once you've sobered up a bit and the mind clears, most see (right or wrong) that the choice is pretty much an illusion.

I'm an atheist, albiet one with a spiritual program that has kept me sober for many twenty-four hours. I credit AA with my recovery but I didn't do it with the god bit - I did it in spite of it.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Dabent wrote:

@Dean "I could do a better job in 10 minutes" That's what I am looking for, help. I am a terrible writer I couldn't do better on my best day. I am so open to suggestions.

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable
Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of this power as we understood it
Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
Step 5 - Admitted to our higher power (spiritual mentor/guide), to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have our higher power remove all these defects of character
Step 7 - Humbly asked this power, greater than ourselves, to remove our shortcomings
Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
Step 11 - Sought through meditation to improve our conscious contact with a higher power as we understood it, meditating only for knowledge of a spiritual path for us and the power to carry that out
Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Dabent, you gotta have some kind of HP/power greater than oneself in the steps to help pull the recovering person off of their self centeredness and thinking outside of themselves. There is so much at stake and involved in just this process.

Of course this is the obstacle with the Ath/AG circle and all of us really. Imo, the most productive thing would be to have a creative 11th step group where the more experienced members can help the newer ones get a concept of how they found their HP, force, spiritual guide. Even with the most stubbon of newcomers, this adoption of and HP can be explained as a necessary tool and to proceed with it as a psychological model, even to borrow someone else's concept till they can imagine their on.

An example that I can give you from another 12 step group is from Acoa. Inner child work, where you identify your "inner child". It sounded ridiculous to me and a voice inside (probably my inner child) was screaming "I ain't going do it". I decided to play along with it to see if I could get the desired benefis/results, which I did. But in the process I discovered my "IC" and it's been a truly miraculous and marvelous thing. Another concept in Acoa is "divorcing your parents and becoming your on loving parent". I now have this somewhat separate loving voice that shows up, when I need it, such as when I make a mistake or get scared. When I first read about that, my stupid macho man self said "no f'ing way" lol. But I did it, to get the results.

That's a maturity process right there, and it's the way the whole world works. You want something, better figure out what other people, who succeeded at it, did to get it, and duplicate their efforts to get similar results. Instead of trying to be a trail blazer and create a new and UNIQUE path. I trail blazed for decades and all of my paths sent me off of hidden cliffs, kind of like the coyotee on the road runner cartoon. That was me, blowing myself up, trying to be what I wasn't lol.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 09:52:14 AM

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

I hung with the DB1105s when I seriously got into the program. I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know and so I had to and then willingly relied on the input and experiences of those who came before me or else I would die by my own hand. "They know/knew" was my awareness and I had to be around what they know/knew and it saved my life. I've been around a long time and have sat in on meetings where serious discussion was held about changing the gender and name of god; of banning all references to the religion connectedness in the program including the saying of the serenity prayer and Lord's prayer. I stayed away from those people because it all sounded like the voice inside my head...the ego and the pride that brought me into the rooms with no where else was trusted especially the bars and clubs and empty apartments and cars I drank in. I like keeping the humility aspect of "not knowing" because it keeps me in the listening paradigm. I was told that when the student in ready the teacher(s) arrive. I stay ready...humble and as my elder sponsor defined it "teachable". I was given the premission and freedom to "take what I liked and leave the rest" which allows me to go and be almost anywhere I like and learn or not. The God of my understanding is real and ancient...the most powerful closing prayer to one of my meetings in the past 34 years was said by a "Blackfoot" indian and the word God was never mentioned. Keep and open mind...drop all prejudices you may have against another persons experiences and awareness...listen to it all when able and choose what consequence you might have regarding it. I like sober as a consequence. smile

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

WOW Dean, ... ... ... that's quite insightful and very well stated ... ... ... You really got my attention with this post ...

Thanks,
Pappy

P.S. Loved the 'RoadRunner' analogy ...

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 09:07:21 AM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

You know Pappy, that most people's issues with a "Higher Power" probably originate from authority figure issues. Unfortunately these same issues make those people (formally me) reluctant to follow/take directions etc... There are also folks that are pissed at "God" (Agnostics) for, presumably, taking away something they loved or letting it die. My Mother is pissed at "God" for my older brother being born mentally challenged and other things (her dad dying, divorce...). God is an easy person to blame, he doesn't talk back (usually lol) and not too many people stick up for him. I mean, when's the last time you saw someone yell Gdamnit and another person runs up, punches them out and says "how dare you talk about my God that way!". Ok, so I'm digressing a bit here. My point is, that if we can put away our reservations about obtaining a higher power, to work the steps properly and earnestly, amazing things will happen, most importantly a "Spiritual Awakening". Even a simple explanation of that is, as I sit here typing, I'm looking out of a picture window of my backyard view of a yacht basin, hoping to see a porpoise, manatee, or one of a dozen water birds that visit my dock/backyard. If I'm up in the mountains, I' hiking around as much as possible looking at the views, and hoping to see wildlife. At night I'm star gazing with a clear view of thousands of stars and the north to south swatch of the milkyway. Also still amazed at hundreds of fireflies (or lightening bugs) everywhere. All of this outer stimuli (reality) keeps me out of my head instead of where those negative voices live (where my disease lives). Those voices only have one message "What's in it for ME?".

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 10:22:33 AM

Dabent · Veteran Member

I have said it before and will say it again my higher power is the force and I am trying to become a Jedi. Fits in with the At/AG and the God thing. How to I translate a middle ground to others to find a God like I have? I think of this project is like a bridge the gap type dell. Side note: last corrections meeting a stat was said, 93% of inmate who use bridge the gap do not come back into the system. 93% are you kidding me? WOW! Whit that in mind I hoping that this will have some of the results.

We will not stop you from talking about god just be prepaid for others to share about there complete disbelief of God.(no cross talk). We are going for all are welcome. Just because we don't want to hear about your God does not mean we won't sit and listen quietly and patiently.

-- Edited by Dabent on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 10:38:45 AM

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

The steps are a mathematical equation where upon working them a "personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism" occurs, known to some as a "spiritual experience", they require a value of "X", where X = "a power greater then yourself" or "God as you understand him"

No one cares what your value of X is as long as it's not you or another human power, you are encouraged repeatedly throughout the book to choose your own concept of "God", or a power greater then yourself, it takes me about ten minutes tops to explain this concept to a newcomer who's mind isn't closed to all spiritual concepts. If I had to explain MY concept of God it would -also- be like "The Force", I don't have a deity, or an "otherness" and my God certainly doesn't have a penis, but you know what? That's MY business, no one else's, no one cares about my concept of God nor is it anyone else's business, nor is anyone else's concept of God any of MY business, it's my job to help them find a concept they are comfortable with -if I am working with them-, that's all, it's my job to explain they are -required- to have their own concept, even if it's a paper bag, if it works for them, more power to them. No one needs be pushed away by the spiritual terms in our literature, I have seen hundreds if not thousands of atheist/agnostics get their own concept of God and get sober

God=X= A Power Greater then yourself that's not the little voice in your head

it's simple, you can even insert "X" whenever you see the word God, which is basically what we all do anyway, we see the word God and plug our own value in (God as we understand God), we don't need to get Bill's God, or the Judeo Christian God, Bill just explains how HE did it, NOT how YOU should do it

Here:

This is a step 3 I did for a secular forum a few years ago:

Hello, My name is Andrew and I am an Alcoholic

I hope this is appropriate, and I am sorry I repeat myself a few times, I am only hoping to show how I was able to work the twelve steps as an atheist/agnostic.

I use the word "God" in this post a number of times, it's not to "convert" anyone, but to tell you I was able to work the twelve steps of AA as an Agnostic/Atheist. I HAVE to use the WORD God a few times, because there is NO other word that will work, please understand I am NOT referring to a deity, but to EVERYTHING, not an "Otherness' or a "Guiding Intelligence" but simply EVERYTHING.

It's my experience the Twelve Steps work to bring about recovery from Alcoholism, and I believe you needn't have a deity for this to work, and it's my experience that I was able to do this without changing one word in The Big Book, I just changed my own definition of a few words. I have brought maybe thirty Agnostic/Atheists men (sponsees) through the steps using what I learned.

First, I believe the twelve steps are a mathematical equation that when worked bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

There is only one hang up, The word "God" in those steps. This post is how to get around that without needing a deity.

This is going to be a LONG post, if you suffer (like I do from a short attention span, look ahead to the Bolded parts for step by step instructions for what I did to work the steps in AA without a Deity.)

A thread I participated in recently in The AA forum made me feel the need for this post, as what follows literally saved my life. When I got sober I was rabidly anti-Christian, anti-religion and anti-religious.

I see Christians in meetings and online that think there is no "Christian Dogma" in the BB, and the attitudes of some AA's made me realize the need for this Post, the quote in particular that inspired me to write this was:

Quote:

Who the hell cares about Christian dogma when it comes to getting sober. Seems to me this debate should take place in the first week of not drinking between a couple newcomers, or a newcomer and someone who's been around for a while. I understand the question, but depending on a person's viewpoint, there's really no way to satisfy someone who's bent on being anti-christian.

If I went to a doctor and found that I had cancer, was given the Big Book and told that if I read it and followed the plan as it was laid out I could arrest the cancer, do you think I'd give a damn whether it was Christian based or not. People who come up with these types of questions, IMO are looking for a way out, or looking to discredit the AA program for some reason. So, why waste time and energy? Stay away from AA, go back out and have a few more, or just carry on with life as you know it and stop trying to pick the fly poop out of the pepper.

If I would have been presented with this attitude or been told this when I was new I would be a dead man.

Literally, If I was told to get God or get out and go drink like I actually have heard in some meetings, I would be dead today. Me learning how to work the steps and get around the vast Christianity in the Book saved my life, I was, as I mentioned, rabidly anti-Christian and anti-religious when I got sober in 1992. If I hadn't figured how to remove the Christianity from the message I would never had been able to stay long enough to get sober.

Today I am ambivalent, which means I have strong feelings on both sides of the issue, or in other words, I don't care. I can read Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Wiccan, Old Druidic Lore, -some- Christianity, and find wisdom anywhere without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Technically, I guess closer to anything I am a Taoist, which is simply "Sh1t Happens", literally translated The "Tao Te Ching" just means The Book of the virtue of how things are. There is no deity in Taoism, basically the premise is sh1t rolls downhill, and if you have a problem with that it's your problem, and if you stand downhill from said sh1t, your gonna get a mouthful. The "Acceptance speech' in the BB is taoism at it's finest.

You could "label" me an Atheist and an Agnostic, because technically I am, but I feel I am "Gnostic" which comes from the Greek word "Gnosis' which means "knowledge" a Gnostic, or my version thereof believes I can "evolve" as it were and that any "bit" of "God" I ever will be found will be in my own heart, When I see the word "God" I use the dictionary definition "The Great Reality"

If you don't believe in Reality get a staple gun, put about fifteen staples in your body, maybe one or two in your eyeball, then get back to me. That's what I mean by "reality". "The Great Reality" to me just means everything and everything in it, so I can "see" the word "God" and not be bothered by it, I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in an "Otherness". More on this later, sorry to use that word so early.

The First Chapter in The Tao Te Ching says, That which can be explained is not the way things are, and the way things are can't be explained.

I can build a house, paint it, furnish it, and describe it to the best of my ability, I can describe the walls, the windows, the floor etc, but what I can NEVER explain is "the space" inside the house and that is what I actually live in. All I can ever convey to you is what color the walls are and what it looks like, I can never give you the experience of being inside my house unless you do the work and come and visit me.

That is the problem in a nutshell with spirituality and the Big Book, all the words, the mention of the word God, the HE, and FATHER, and GUIDING INTELLIGENCE, is just what color the walls are "painted" by the men who "painted" in the only colors they knew, which was the language of Christianity. I will call this language baby poop green. I had to get past the fact I hated baby poop green and actually read what these men were saying while tossing the Christian language out.

OK, on to business, The Big Book, TO ME is a Christian Based Text written by Christians, for Christians, and in order for me to work those steps, I had to remove all the "Christian Dogma" and figure out how to get past the word "God" and what I viewed as all the Christian Blather and "God talk" I saw and heard in the "rooms" of Alcoholics Anonymous.

AA is a "spiritual" program, so it uses "spiritual" language, for me I had to let go of my previous concepts and definitions and make new ones. The Dictionary actually was helpful for this.

First: I was told don't worry about the word "God" until you are on your third step

This proved to be one of the most important things ever told to me in AA, it literally saved my life, by the time I was working the third step with a sponsor, I no longer had a problem with "The Word" God

As I stated earlier I believe to me the twelve steps are a mathematical equation where if you strip away the "Christian dogma*" and when you see the "integer" "God" you plug in your own "value" for a "power greater then yourself" then work steps one through twelve, arriving at "having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps"

where spiritual awakening = personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism (our more religious members call it God consciousness) that means our "non" or "less" religious members call it a "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

Each step has conditions and promises, ie; If you do this like this you get this, which to me have never failed, when I do this like this I get this, the most famous of which are the ninth step promises, "If we are painstaking about this phase of our recovery we will know a new freedom and a new happiness etc. etc."

To me these (the steps) have proven to be as unfailing as a math equation, yes, a lot of people in Calc or algebra don't end up with the same answers as me, is math or the professor to blame or is it the result of people plugging the wrong value into an integer or getting part of the process wrong which results in an incorrect answer?

There are a LOT of ways to write A + B = C, and a LOT of ways to "arrive" at "C" as "The Conclusion", C being abstinence from alcohol, AA is by no means the only way, but, in my experience I have NEVER seen it "fail" anyone who THOROUGHLY followed it's path as is suggested.

Math isn't for everyone, and neither is AA, it's just an answer that worked "for us", but the end result for both is the same, if you do this like this, you get this.

It almost doesn't matter what that "Power" is, as long as it's "not me". Women can use the actual fact of "giving birth" or creating life" as a "higher power" as far as I am concerned, and Men can use their knocker, hell, it's been leading you around for years already, might as well admit it's a power greater then yourself and put it to good use, although you may want to choose a different concept because if you are anything like me the damn thing is nothing but trouble and doesn't always act in my best interests.

If you ask a physicist to explain something in laymans terms they will have a number of 'false starts" then finally explain they use the language they use that we as laymen find incomprehensible because thats the only way to explain it.

Unfortunately or fortunately, the language of recovery in AA is spiritual, which is slippery at best, and arouses instant "brain shut down" at worst. I watch people argue about AA simply because in many cases people don't understand the concept of their OWN concept of God, they see the word God and they lose their F'ing mind because it conjures up someone ELSE'S concept of God.

To me it's simple as hell, see the stars? see everything? see all those galaxies? see birth? see love? the curve of a perfect breast? see a puppy? a kitten? see a mothers love for her child? a sunrise?

Package all that up, call it God, no deity needed, plug it into the steps, work them and you will have a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

Ok, onto Nuts and Bolts.

Here is one method (the one I start with) I have used with sponsees.

I use electricity as a "power greater then yourself" concept, it starts with electricity then "evolves" to include every single thing in The Universe.

First I tell them if you don't believe in a power greater then yourself I'd like you to stick your tongue in that electrical outlet over there, get back to me when you are done to tell me how it went.

Then I use my paramedic training to tell about the heart, how it has electricity in it, how in the absence of electricity the person dies, and how there is also electrical activity in the brain, and if the electrical activity in the Brain stops they either go "brain dead" or will actually die if the damage is sever enough. Without electricity you wouldn't be alive.

Every living thing in the world has electrical activity, there is even electricity in trees and plants (very very small amounts but it's there)

I explain how it fits the greeting "Namaste" which means:

# "I respect divinity within you that is also within me." (Here, "that" refers to divinity, or that which is divine.)
# "The light within me honors the light within you." (in yoga)

and how it fits with all of the interconnectedness and spiritual theories, as in there is divine in all of us, and the "oneness theories" but all animals, trees, everything has electricity in it in some form or fashion but by using a basic principle such as electricity you can use that to build to a Power greater then yourself that is personal to you.

I also bust out with "A new Pair of Glasses" and show many passages that confused me greatly for over a decade about his description of God, and how he states he is not a christian then uses many sayings attributed to Jesus to show many things, but how spirituality can "fit" in with Christianity. (many are pretty anti-christian when they get to me, so by using we agnostics, Glasses, and the electricity analogy by the time they walk away they are open minded and realize they have been displaying the very character defects they claimed not to like in Christianity)

I talk about how it's actually the ego that is trying to kill us, that voice in our head, and we need to learn how to start listening to that voice in our hearts which takes place from working the steps.

I talk about him finding "God" in the last place we ever thought to look, inside our own heart, how we (as a species) go "looking for God" when it's inside of us all the time. I tell the story of the three fish, swimming in the Ocean, and the big fish that swims by and says "Hello boys, nice day, waters great today huh?" one fish looks at another and asks, "what is water" and the three fish spend the rest of their life swimming around the Pacific Ocean, looking for water, in which they live and breathe and have their very existence.

Anyway, yes, I start with Electricity, from there it moves to spiritual principals, I show that reliance on a deity made in a human image need not concern them, but how once they have their own concept of God, they can plug that value into anywhere the word God is written (in the big book) and have it work.

For the purposes of this discussion, and for the program, I refer to everything that is "not me" as "God", and what I mean by "not me" I mean the little voice in my head, my Ego, like if I cut myself, what heals the cut, the little voice in my head doesn't heal that cut, it's a power greater then myself that I don't wholly understand, so it's "not me", ergo it's "God". For me humility means being "right sized" knowing where I end and "God" begins, that's easy, the little voice in my head has absolutely no power except the power I give it, so all other "power" is "God". (this is just for the sake of this discussion you understand, it all sounds very religious, but it's not, still no deity involved)

So turning my life and will over to everything but the little voice in my head is easy. Keeping it that way is hard. That little voice in my head is just not very powerful, frequently wrong, and it also happens to be where my alcoholism is seated, so I turn my will and my life over to everything that is NOT that voice in my head, which for the purposes of this discussion and AA I call "God".

an example or colloquialism about it would be "I am in charge of flinging sh1t against the wall, but I am not in charge of what sticks" ergo, I am not in charge of adhesion, so what is in "charge of adhesion", would not be the little voice in my head or "not me", so that would be "God".

I am in charge of the effort and the footwork, but not the results.

The little voice in my head talks big but the truth of the matter is it has f*ck-all to do with what actually takes place in the world. I mean it has gotten me laid a few times, but it's also gotten me tossed in the can, it's "decision making" capabilities are spotty at best (If I actually look at the results of my decisions, not the the thinking if that makes sense) but there I am, thinking about me again, an egomaniac with an inferiority complex thinking I am the piece of sh1t that the world revolves around.

That voice is literally actively trying to get me to drink, it will try every trick it knows, it will try and make me so happy I drink, or it will try to put me in so much pain that taking a drink is a good idea, the little voice in my head is not to be trusted and is actively literally trying to kill me.

So turning my will and life over to the care of anything but the little voice in my head that is actively trying to kill me suddenly makes good sense and is practical. It's also learning how to live in "the now" and not that fantasy world we call 'reality'. Anything that takes me away from that part of my mind and thinking that little voice in my head that says it knows best but on a second look is actively trying to kill me is turning my will and my life over.

Taoism, as I understand it, is pretty simple and a good summation is this:

Quote:

At last, acceptance proved to be the key to my drinking problem. After I had been around A.A. for seven months, tapering off alcohol and pills, not finding the program working very well, I was finally able to say, Okay, God. It is true that Iof all people, strange as it may seem, and even though I didnt give my permission really, really am an alcoholic of sorts. And its all right with me. Now, what am I going to do about it? When I stopped living in the problem and began living in the answer, the problem went away. From that moment on, I have not had a single compulsion to drink.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situationsome fact of my life unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in Gods world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on lifes terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.

Shakespeare said, All the worlds a stage, and all the men and women merely players. He forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out, because I knew you wanted perfection, just as I did. A.A. and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about Gods handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.

For years I was sure the worst thing that could happen to a nice guy like me would be that I would turn out to be an alcoholic. Today I find its the best thing that has ever happened to me. This proves I dont know whats good for me. And if I dont know whats good for me, then I dont know whats good or bad for you or for anyone. So Im better off if I dont give advice, dont figure I know whats best, and just accept life on lifes terms, as it is todayespecially my own life, as it actually is. Before A.A. I judged myself by my intentions, while the world was judging me by my actions.

Because it IS a "spiritual program" with a "spiritual solution" I do find myself frequently using the word God, but I just mean everything that is "not me" or not the little voice in my head, to me the word God is an "integer" who's value is "X" if that makes sense.

I didn't "change" anything or even do any "broadening" of the program, I am quite literally following Bill's instructions when he says "why don't you choose your own concept of God"

Quote:

Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it. Keep his attention focused mainly on your personal experience. Explain that many are doomed who never realize their predicament. Doctors are rightly loath to tell alcoholic patients the whole story unless it will serve some good purpose. But you may talk to him about the hopelessness of alcoholism because you offer a solution. You will soon have you friend admitting he has many, if not all, of the traits of the alcoholic. If his own doctor is willing to tell him that he is alcoholic, so much the better. Even though your protege may not have entirely admitted his condition, he has become very curious to know how you got well. Let him ask you that question, if he will. Tell him exactly what happened to you. Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles.

When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.

Bill was extremely clear and emphatic about everything I explained, I only reword it, I am not re-inventing the wheel here, just putting it in language I understand.

It's just the language used is so ...loaded.....no pun intended

After some years my math "equation" looks more like this

(Everything + Everything that is + Everything that ever was + Everything that ever will be) - ( The little voice in my head that tells me what to do and lies to me all the time) = X

For the purposes of AA

God = X

Plug the value of X into whenever I see the word God in the Big Book or on the wall or whenever I hear the word in a meeting and I'm golden, if *you need a "God" with a willy, or a beard, or a wrathful God or whatever floats your boat, more power to you, I don't need to make my value of X anthropomorphic personally, nor am I threatened by anyone's use of the word any more quite frankly, I just plug my own value in it when I hear or read it.

It's as simple as "Sh1t Happens" and if you are downhill from it you get a mouthful and if you sit in it you get cranky, because it's almost always your own, and I notice after I had been sober for awhile and started feeling better about myself I didn't have to take anyone else's, nor for the most part did people want to give me nearly as much quite frankly for some strange reason.

*you = people in meetings

I have found these to be effective building blocks that have led many even claiming to be atheist/agnostics to reach step 12

I am an Atheist/Agnostic that has a God that is personal to him Today.

Please feel free to ask any questions, I don't mean to offend anyone, just tell my experience with getting through the twelve steps.

-- Edited by LinBabaAgo-go on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 01:18:30 PM

justadrunk · MIP Old Timer

Rob - your first response is almost mirror to my thoughts.

We are all here because we couldn't do it alone. I am thankful I have a wee bit of experience to share now, and a sober mind to do it with. My experience is my own, and all I hope to do is share it lovingly.

Who am I thankful towards?

You.

Whoever You are.

Frodo · MIP Old Timer

StPeteDean wrote:
Lack of desperation is a horrible thing. Imagine a person falls off of a cruise ship in the middle of the night, floats for days, figures that the end is near. Then a ship pulls up and throws out a life saver ring and the person in the water complains about it being the wrong color.

Hahahaha.... *sigh*

Five long, horrible years I argued against using the lifesaver that was offered to me. I didn't like the colour at all. Then it turned out to suit me quite well, to my everlasting surprise.

That's it though. I don't have a dog in this fight. I just know what worked for me and that's the system as it is set out in the book.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

See Dabent, you were so worried about a "power beyond our control vs. A power greater than ourselves" (splitting hairs) and now you've opened Pandora's Box, aka Linbabba I hope that you like reading.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 02:04:00 PM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Dabent, it doesn't mater what we think, and I think that this has been expressed. I would say though that, imo, atheism is a belief system (proof exists that there is No God). With that said, whatever our belief systems are, we should park them at the door of the meeting. And just as it's offensive to these potential members of this group, to hear the word "God", it's kinda of the same way for the other folks to hear "Atheist" or "No God allowed in here". How you carefully handle that aspect, I believe, will make a big difference in the health of your group. Picking a subtle name for the group (if you haven't already) that implies the groups purpose while not being offensive (unless of course you don't care if you offend others) would seem important. Most groups that have rather unique group conscience stipulations have a carefully worded reading that is read after the preambles etc... such as "Our group conscience kindly asks those sharing to refrain from making specific reference to their form of spirituality, religions, deities....as this group was formed for the benefit of non-believers to stay sober and practices the 12 steps of AA, although all are welcome..."

Of course you could always have a closed meeting, invitation only, wear dark hooded robes, meet by candle light and speak in latin biggrin

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 3rd of July 2012 09:54:24 PM

Dabent · Veteran Member

Dean I like what you said but the steps well not quite. My thinking is no God no higher power in there, somehow, but not lose the message of AA.
I'll give a set of steps a go. Anyone else also please feel free to do the same or suggest changes.

I am going for a neutral set of steps. Good for the atheist good for the christian. I know it is a challenge to change the steps in a way that I get a begrudging OK from people here, our group, and the believers. I think it can be done or I would not be doing it. I want all of you to feel welcome in this new group with the understanding that the only differences is we don't want to here about your God. Other than that it's an AA meeting. We have no intentions of changing AA just this group. No different than groups that will NOT let you talk about drugs and other group embrace that drugs are a part of our stories. It's that damn autonomous thing.

Notice the replacement of God with "powers beyond our control". see how something like this goes over.

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable
Step 2 - Came to believe that Powers beyond our control could restore us to sanity
Step 3 - Made a decision to strive to quit fighting everything and everybody, to accept things that were outside our control, and to not play God
Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
Step 5 - Admitted to ourselves, to another human being and to the Powers beyond our control the exact nature of our wrongs.
Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have all of these defects of character to be removed
Step 7 - Humbly Asked someone for help to remove our shortcomings
Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
Step 11 - Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.
Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Dabent · Veteran Member

I am stealing a bunch of what LinBabaAgo-go said. That was some good reading, long (short book) but good. I'm a math guy also so it spoke to me. Dean it's all splitting hairs when comes to this subject. I am trying to split one a little bit different to attract some one who might not otherwise come through the doors. That and I love a good challenge.

Just got back and it looks like we have a meeting place for this meeting as long as they don't charge much. Not in a church, like that matters, but some people still have that big resentment towards religion and think AA is a religion. Bought a few pieces of literature to get us started. Our central office hooked me up with laminated traditions and other readings for free woohoo. Now the fun stuff who's going to do what? I'm getting my first GSR position, already decided. I'm the only one who can afford to go to district meetings until the group gets some money.

This is rolling along faster than I expected :) No matter what you think I will keep updating on how this works out. I so look forward to people like all of you that come to this meeting and share what worked for you. So what if you call it God, maybe you are the one who will make him/her go..Hmmmmm. I know of two other people who have jumped into young peoples AA head first on the sole premise of getting this atheist group going. Those 2 are so excited and it's all they talk about when I see them. Talking about recovery leaves very little room to be thinking about a drink.

Dabent · Veteran Member

How's this for a first draft? The average AAer with some time would not be phased by this but the atheist newcomer might find solace in the word "atheist" being used and God not. It says if you want to talk about God go ahead. But it gives that newcomer on the fence a reason to come back for one more meeting, I hope.

Welcome to the Saturday night Widened Our Gateway AA meeting this is an open meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous we are glad you are all here. Could we please start the meeting with a moment of silence for the still suffering alcoholic in and out of these rooms.

Preamble
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics,organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Widened Our Gateway group strives to maintain a tradition of free expression, and conduct a meeting where alcoholics may feel free to express any doubts or disbeliefs they may have, and to share their own personal form of spiritual experience, their search for it, or their rejection of it. In keeping with AA tradition, we do not endorse or oppose any form of religion or atheism. Our only wish is to ensure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone's beliefs, or having to deny their own.

Have someone read: The fundamental principle of the Widened Our Gateway group. **

Are there any newcomers in their first 30 days of sobriety? If so please introduce yourself by your first name only so we my get to know you.

Are there any visitors from out of town or other groups who would like to introduce themselves?

The 7th tradition states that each A.A. group is self-supporting through its own contributions. So at some point during the meeting we will be passing the basket, newcomers please do not contribute.

Introduce a Topic: Open the meeting, call on people or make it a tag meeting.

When there is 5 minutes left

Have someone read: Chapter to the Atheist.***

If anyone here feels the need to say something more, talk to one of us after the meeting.
If you came in with a problem, don't leave with a problem.
Are there any AA related announcements?

In closing, I would like to quote Bill Wilson from his book Alcoholics Anonymous
Comes of Age:

AA's Twelve Steps were to be suggestions only. Such were the final concessions to those of little or no faith; this was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief.

**Long form of Tradition Three and the fundamental principle of the Widened Our Gateway group

Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

***Chapter to the Atheist.

Bill W (co-founder of AA) in an interview, was asked, "Bill, you've written a chapter to the agnostic, but what about the atheist?"
This was his reply:
"A great many of them come to A.A. and they say that they are trapped. By this they mean that we have convinced them that they are fatally ill, yet they cannot accept a belief in God and His grace as a means of recovery. Happily this does not prove to be an impossible dilemma at all. We simply suggest that the newcomers take an easy stance and an open mind; that he proceeds to practice those parts of the Twelve Steps that anyone's common sense would readily recommend. He can certainly admit that he is an alcoholic; that he ought to make a moral inventory; that he ought to discuss his defects with another person; that he should make restitution for harms done; and that he can be helpful to other alcoholics.

Angell · Senior Member

Dabent,

I think your first draft is fine. Personally, I wouldn't overthink it. If it offends someone and they give you a good reason to change it - do so, otherwise on with recovery.

mattbox · Member

One simple solution I feel would be to simple use "god", no capital G. "God" is a supernatural thing, a monotheistic deity. "god" means supreme or ultimate reality.

Wilson wrote that we should make AA always inclusive, never exclusive. If there are concepts that alienate newcomers they need to be changed so all will feel welcome.

I've met a lot of clergy people and 90% are smart, funny, kind people. Unfortunately they don't get much press, as in most things it's the idiots that we hear about so much, which sucks.
The very religious people I know seem no different from me, except maybe they volunteer more.
But you don't hear about that as much as the lunatic "white only" preacher or those anti gay military protest lunatics.

That and some personal experiences with the misuse of religion by messed up humans can make new people see the "God" stuff and bolt. That could spell death for them, and if you know
how this programs works by keeping people away it could spell death for me too. One of them may say the words that will save my ass one day. We can't have that anymore.

I would vote to neutralize the Jewish / Christian stuff (God, He, Father) to something way more general, like ultimate reality (eh, a little clunky).
We're smart, we can come up with a way to keep everyone happy.

If we are sincere when we say "aa is not religious, it is spiritual" then we need to get rid of the explicitly religious language. Otherwise it is time to stop pretending and call it religious.

I'm an atheist but i think when a Christian talks about God and I talk about "the way things are at this moment"(my HP) we are talking about the same thing -- that we are essentialy at the mercy of circumstance, so we can let go our imaginary control over things, that the future is friendly, help your neighbor and call your mom.

Ruhig · Senior Member

"If we are sincere when we say "aa is not religious, it is spiritual" then we need to get rid of the explicitly religious language. Otherwise it is time to stop pretending and call it religious."

some one beat you to the punch line. In America, the supreme court ruled AA as a secular religion. Bummer.

Dabent · Veteran Member

Once again I like to thank everyone for there input on this thread. Just want to keep updating on how things are rolling along.

We have a name for the group, "No Wrong Way". We have a temp meeting place. We have 3/4 of a format. We have a GSR, treasurer, secretary (maybe), Lit rep, intergrouop rep.

"The No Wrong Way name is taken from page 2 of Living Sober:
There is no prescribed AA "right" way or "wrong" way. Each of us uses what is best for himself or herselfwithout closing the door on other kinds of help we may find valuable at another time. And each of us tries to respect others' rights to do things differently."

We are trying to be real careful not to be inclusive or exclusive. We are just not going to make this meeting all about God. If you come to the meeting and want to talk about God, we want you to feel comfortable doing so. We also want to the Ag/At to feel comfortable expressing his disbelief of a God. We will take most topics out of Living Sober but there are many other good topics in the 12X12 and the big book. We will only be using conference approved literature (at this point, group conscience can and will change as we roll)

I am finding out who my true friends are now. Helping to get this group going and the outing of myself that I use mmj I am watching so many people turn their back's on me and walk away. That is going to be a good thing. People who do not respect my belief system, people who think they know more than my Drs, people who think AA should a God program only are all people who can go **** themselves.

I am finding new friends also. I announced in a meeting about this atheist stuff. After the meeting a kid comes to me and says I've not had a drink in 60 days and this is my first AA meeting. He says he would never come to AA because of all the God shit. We'll he decided to give it a try and in his first meeting not one person talked about God and then some crazy ass guy is talking about an atheist meeting and no one is telling him to be quit or telling him to leave. He's now not so against this AA B.S. and I get a new sponosee. He is now catching meetings between his "atheist" meetings.
Right there!! That's the goal! Get the atheist in the door, get them exposed to the fun AA is, get them looking and reading the big book accepting the parts they can at first (rest whenever) and getting them to take AA piecemeal.

Question on starting a group. Money? it's not cheep to get a group going. How much can 1 person "loan" or donate to a group to get it started? If I/he/she go buy $200 worth of books can they keep the receipt until the group can pay back? Even if it is years? Can I/he/she pay for rent on the room until the group gets on it's feet? I've never started a group and I am the oldest guy in this new group so all these questions seem to come down to me. We have a temp meeting place and will pass the hat but I don't see us raising more than $10 a week at first. That will all have to go rent on the new place. Then slowly we can build up for lit, coffee and chips. It could take months get the money we need(want) so we can have big books on hand, Living Sober, newcomer packs, chips etc etc. I don't mind donating a couple hundred bucks to this cause but is that a conflict of traditions? I know AA has a max on what you can donate a year, is this the same principle? I do not have anything over the group if it is a donation instead of a loan. Red the pamphlet on starting a group, didn't really say much about money. I just do not know on this subject. Almost started a thread of it's own, money and AA is always an interesting discussion. I just might still, I want to be learned on this AA and money thing.