severe chronic pain, Medical marijuana and recovery

leeu · MIP Old Timer

severe chronic pain, Medical marijuana and recovery

Dabent · Veteran Member

I was recently turned down, again, by someone to sponsor me because "I still smoke pot". I am frustrated at people and there understanding (or lack of) of MMJ. I am in severe pain all day every day and it is permanent. My choices are a regiment of Oxycontin daily or smoke pot daily.

At one point in the past I had a disagreement with my Dr. He said I was just taking all this because I was an addict. So I stopped all pain killers. 3 weeks later I tried to drink my self to death because the pain was so bad. That was the end of almost 2 years clean. Then into the mental hospital on a permanent hold.

I had a great spiritual experience while in the hospital. A huge part of that was a TEAM of Drs telling me I have to get my pain under control 1st so I can sleep, then try to live again, then worry about recovery. Those Drs hooking me up with a great pain management Dr, PA, surgeon, psychiatrist, therapist was so eye opening. All my new Drs are so on-board with the MMJ over the Oxys. The hospital is also tracking me for a long term case study on people in recovery and using MMJ.

I only needed a temp sponsor so I don't know why this topic bugged me so much I signed up here to make my rant. I had a great sponsor a few years back that told me once, " when you take a pain killer just to feel better some days, that's how the rest of us feel all the time". I take 30 or so Oxys over a 5-7 months (that a 30 day supply if no MMJ). I do smoke my pot so I agree smoking anything is bad for me.

I had a friend, very dear to me, overdose a few months back from Tramdal. Her sponsor was adamantly against MMJ and she got her license anyway. Her sponsor was not happy and told it was just a relapse if she used it. 2 months later she is dead. Would MMJ have helped save her who knows? I think it might have. I write this in hopes that someone might read this and get something out of it. That others in chronic pain know there are options.

PS yes I just did a 5th step over all this with my sponsor.

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

I'm sorry Dabent, but I don't understand what the dilemma is. Are you an alcoholic? If so, then A.A. is for you. But as far as approved medical options are concerned -whether its marijuana or prescription drugs, A.A. suggests you take the medicine 'as prescribed' regardless what others might say. We're not doctors here, just recovering alcoholics, so when it comes to treatment options your doctor knows best, and only your doctor. In my opinion, I'd take the medicine as prescribed, regardless. If the problem was alcohol related then we can voice our opinion, but if it involves prescribed medicines, well, that's for the professionals to decide, not us. I hope this helps.

-- Edited by Mr_David on Saturday 30th of June 2012 04:09:54 PM

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Totally agree with you LeeU, it's none of AA's business what a Dr. prescribes to one of our members unless asked about our experience.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

I'm not a Doctor, and I have taken pain meds in sobriety, and truthfully when I tore my finger off and had it re-attached the doctors had prescribed Vicodin which wasn't working worth a s*** I smoked some pot and the pain was -gone-.

Medical Marijuana is a real thing, I have zero issues with it, it's between the person and their sponsor and their doctor, if it's -truly- for pain (just like any prescription) just proceed with caution is all, and keep checking in with a sponsor and support group.

I have taken pain meds 2-3 times over the last few years when injured on the job and I was in pain, I'm still sober.

Ain't no thang but a chicken wang

gonee · MIP Old Timer

I learnt my lesson very early. A friend of mine got sober with me. He stayed sober for 2 weeks, and committed suicide. I was very sad. I could not understand what had gone wrong. I started to read up on this. I learnt that some alcoholics are suicidally depressed and they might need professional help and medication before getting sober. For my friend, alcohol had provided a panacea for pain. When he removed the alcohol and got sober, he should have gone for medical help. Having learnt from that lesson, whenever I work with a new person, I recommend that he sees a doctor. The AA 12 step program, should be applied after the person is detoxed properly. I believe alcoholism is serious disease, but other hidden conditions are just as dangerous. There is a very good pamphlet written called "AA and medicine."

Db1105 · Senior Member

The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. The only person responsible for me picking up is me. If someone is uncomfortable sponsoring for anybody requiring pain medication, they should not sponsor that person. Taking medical advise from a sponsor is not a good idea either. Going to any length to get sober also applys to searching for a sponsor that is right for you. Just keep looking.

SteveP · MIP Old Timer

Yep, only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. AA has no view on out side issues, etc.

That said, if someone starts sharing at length about pills, pot, gambling, food or whatever else etc at a meeting, they can rightly be suggested to afterward to stick their sharing to their experiences with alcohol, since AA is precisely that -- *Alcoholics* Anonymous.

Steve

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Dabent, this board is for discussing recovery from alcohol, not the promotion MM or other prescription pain medication. I think that you made your point. Looks like you've been through a lot of sponsors, and what's your criteria for choosing them? smile By the way, my Mother, 36 years sober has had 3 back surgeries and has had severe rheumatoid arthritis for 30 years and has never taken a narchotic for pain relief. She doesn't even take Novocaine when having dental work. So the same can be said for managing pain, in recovery, without the use of narchotics, which is also an outside issue to AA.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 1st of July 2012 11:48:29 AM

Dabent · Veteran Member

Thanks everyone for the responses. (by the way almost 3 years without a drink thanks to AA, my HP and my sponsor). I do not really have a dilemma just ranting. I need to realize this is her problem for not wanting to sponsor me, not mine. I have a permanent sponsor I just need a temp while he's gone for the summer. I am just frustrated at the responses I get when it comes to pain meds. This is not the first person to say no because of my pain meds. I have also had sponsors ask me for some of my Oxys, I have had sponsors as me for pot, I have sponsors ask me to start selling them Oxys or pot so they could make money on the side. Everyone of those sponsors was relived of there duties on the spot. This last one I asked is just a person that I can really open up to. She knows more about me than me sponsor, well she did but on my last fifth step a week or so ago I came clean about all the things that I have told her but not him. It seems to have put a strain on our friendship once I told her about the MMJ. Just frustrating that so many "recovered alcoholics" are so sick and not into this with all they got. I have more than desire to not drink I have that desperation not to drink even after 3 years. I do not crave it, do not think about it, I do not want a drink. I just want recovery more than anything.

I have had 8 sponsors in the 3 years I've been around. My sponsor now is the best. So nonjudgmental, mellow low key, understanding and loving. I have been with him for over almost 2 years and he has helped so much. I also have a pain management Dr that is young (1sr job out of med school) and loves the fact that someone in my condition can get by with just MMJ. In her opinion if things get bad she says use both. That never goes well LOL using both makes me sick. My therapist is 20 years sober in AA and is all about the MMJ also. My psychiatrist is on the fence until i remind him of the quantity of Oxys I will have to start taking and then he is also all about it. That is if i do not smoke it, eat, vaporize, tinctures he just does not want me to smoke anything.

My back is so bad I got SSI on my first try without a lawyer. I have to have surgery every 14-18 months just to keep the ability to walk. If you've ever been stabbed that's what it feels like, just no one took the knife out. I've broken my back 5 or 6 time if my life, none hurt as bad as this. With that said, I am so grateful to have the support of most people. I just get sad when a person I thought was a very close friend judges me for just trying to get by. True friends are hard to come by and every time I lose a friend over this it bums me out.

PS the male/female female/male sponsoring is a whole another topic.

Dabent · Veteran Member

Not just ranting. Just hope that some one sees this thread and realizes recovery and chronic pain can be done.

Dabent · Veteran Member

So talking about AA sponsors that have issues on outside issues is not talk of recovery? And any sponsor that ask me for my pain killers, scratch that, asks me for my outside issues is fired did you not read that part? Did you not read that I am just putting this out there for other people in recovery that are also in chronic pain?

What exactly do I need to talk about to appease you? Not say Oxys and just say outside issues. Not say medical marijuana just say outside issues? Not reach out to the MMJ patient who's afraid to talk to his sponsor about this issues? Should I just quote the big book in all my post?

Recovery is not all about war stories chief, it is about living sober and learning to live with chronic pain (for me). It is also not just about you and what you want to see in a forum. You ever take the time before you posted to think this thread might help someone to a meeting? It is about that guy/girl that is afraid of AA because of this stanch opinions of the old timers like you and might see there are other people with open minds out there. It's about finding sponsors that will not judge on OUTSIDE ISSUES. It's about finding ways to work all parts of life into recovery.

So what were you trying to say? You do not want new people on YOUR forum posting about issues YOU disprove of? Sponsorship and medication issues in AA is not OK with you?

Dabent · Veteran Member

PS. 11 back surgeries in the last 2 years so I feel for your mother, it sucks.

Ruhig · Senior Member

There are two programs for a reason. Some people feel that aa is for alcoholics, and that alcoholics either do not have experience with drug addiction or the life style that comes with it or that just because your an alcoholic doesn't mean you have a problem with drugs ( I personally believe that if you have a problem with one you automatically have a problem with the other because we will use anything to get out of ourselves). While I have seen some people in aa have separate clean date and a sober date, narcotics anonymous however, recognizes alcohol as a drug. So... Post this in the na sister site to this, you may get a different perspective. Although, neither program agrees with giving medical opinions.

Dabent · Veteran Member

Hey Ruhig I have a problem with people not wanting to sponsor me in AA because of the drugs my Dr prescribes, not a drug problem. I came here to post that it is not imposable to have sobriety and chronic pain. I also posted as just a way to vent a little and that's your response? "There are two programs for a reason" what program are you talking about? I do not know of a 12 step program that deals with someone having issues about someone having opinions on outside issues of AA. Al-aon maybe? LOL Would you sponsor a guy using MMJ? Well if you said no then you are dishing out medical opinions and going against a few traditions (3 mostly, 10 also, little of 12, 5 for sure). When I get turned down for sponsorship because someone disagrees with what my Dr says I should do, it hurts. It makes me feel like I'm not "as sober", like they see me as on the "marijuana maintenance program", I've heard I can't have a spiritual experience with those drugs in my system ect ect. So I came here in hopes someone might hear my story and be able to relate. I hope that no one has to overdose like my friend Liz if MMJ or any other non-lethal drug is a valid alternative to a just condition. I hope that I might give some incite to an old timer that there are valid uses for this and all prescribed drugs inside of AA... used under of a Drs care and 100% honest with your sponsor. I hope that some one reads this and comes clean with their Dr and sponsor about how they manage their pain. Most of all passing along my story is just one more way I have to help keep me sober whether you like it or not.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Dabent, have you considered Not discussing your pain management with your sponsor and/or AA group? Sounds like the discussions have caused you a lot of grief, perhaps you'd be further ahead serenity wise, not bringing it up. Since it's not anyone's business but yours, no one can (or should) comment on it, it's really just a one sided conversation (or rant like you called it).

Ruhig · Senior Member

I can appreciate your message and I pass no judgement on anyones use of rx drugs. Although I have heard of someone whovwas unforunately parlyzed and is now on rx pain killers because they feel that pain management is nt an option to help them. And you know what? If it helps them get through their life, good for them. I also know someone born with a hole in their spine that causes immense pain and that person chose to go the pain management route-- non medicated.

So, since I seemed to have hurt your feelings in my last reply, let me rephrase my reply:

"So talking about AA sponsors that have issues on outside issues is not talk of recovery? And any sponsor that ask me for my pain killers, scratch that, asks me for my outside issues is fired did you not read that part? Did you not read that I am just putting this out there for other people in recovery that are also in chronic pain?"
no, that's not talking about recovery-- that's not even asking for a solution. That's b!tch!ng about a resentment. And yes, you were right for firing them for asking for your meds-- like ivsaid some alcoholics think they o ly have a drinking problem, but they can use drugs and still maintain a sober date-- which is wrong. But you may want to try to find someone who also feels that they will accept your medical use but that it's not for them. And the way you "put it out there for others" actually is read as promoting mmj.

"What exactly do I need to talk about to appease you? Not say Oxys and just say outside issues. Not say medical marijuana just say outside issues? Not reach out to the MMJ patient who's afraid to talk to his sponsor about this issues? Should I just quote the big book in all my post?"
if you don't like someones reply, you can disregard it. And not reply at all. But you should take a deep breath and reread your posts. You sound defensive, as if you want someone to affirm that it's ok that you smoke. If you choose this type of medication, and feel it's right then you don't need affirmation. These thngs should be discussed in a smaller group of people, say, your network, or people who know you much better than us, or prehaps your doctors. But in this forum, just like sharing at a meeting, this was an inappropriate topic because AA does not involve itsself in outside issues, as a whole.

"Recovery is not all about war stories chief, it is about living sober and learning to live with chronic pain (for me). It is also not just about you and what you want to see in a forum. You ever take the time before you posted to think this thread might help someone to a meeting? It is about that guy/girl that is afraid of AA because of this stanch opinions of the old timers like you and might see there are other people with open minds out there. It's about finding sponsors that will not judge on OUTSIDE ISSUES. It's about finding ways to work all parts of life into recovery"

actually, aa was first started by people who were addicted to alcohol. Also, because we now have na, I have seen one of two things happen, aa meetings will allow people to add in their shares that they "have addictions to other substances" or they restrict to "as it pertains to alcohol" only meetings. So out of respect for aa and it's origns, any issues involving other substances should be taken else where; say your network, sponsor or take it to na. But if you read through past topics... The general answer is "discuss your concerns with a doctor who is educated on alcoholism" and if in fact you were trying to offer "other solutions" to recovery and pain management, then yes, you were in fact promoting mmj. And again, this general public defense of your situation was innapropriaye. A more apprpriate way to help others in your situation would be to post something similar to "I'm in chronic pain and need to reach out to another alcoholic dealing with chronic pain" but based on your obvious resentment and general attitude and phrasing, you were just wallowing in resentment and self pity and terminal uniqueness.

" I have a problem with people not wanting to sponsor me in AA because of the drugs my Dr prescribes, not a drug problem" I wasn't saying you have a drug problem-- the sponsors trying to buy your meds have drug problems.

"I came here to post that it is not imposable to have sobriety and chronic pain" go reread your original post. None of it is about hope-- it's about how your disappointed in being judged by someone you considered your friend, and your resentment that formed from consistent rejection and how you feel that you should be able to tell the world of your mmj with out any consideration that this may trigger someone, a new comer, into feeling tempted to ask to buy from you or someone else, or may lead new comers into believing that AA doesn't really offer recovery because "it's not sobriety if everyone in AA replaced alcohol with weed" which may not be the case in your position, but the new comer may not know that.

"Well if you said no then you are dishing out medical opinions and going against a few traditions (3 mostly, 10 also, little of 12, 5 for sure). When I get turned down for sponsorship because someone disagrees with what my Dr says I should do, it hurts."
actually, if my answer Was no, then I'm not actually giving medical advice. Asking someone to sponsor you and asking someone to co-sign your habit (medical behavioral or otherwise) are two different things. I would not sponsor an mmj user because what your dr prescribes you is your business not mne, and if I happened to go over step work with you after you took your meds, it would make me feel like using, which is bad for my recovery. So you see, my reasoning has nothing to do with rx issues, it solely revolves around I would feel my own recovery would be at stake.

"It makes me feel like I'm not "as sober", like they see me as on the "marijuana maintenance program", I've heard I can't have a spiritual experience with those drugs in my system ect ect." those are your own insecurities. And you need to either find another way to manage your pain or accept that you will have a more difficult time building a network. But it is unrealistic and erroneous for you to expect AA as a whole to change their attitude towards certain issues, like skepticism, for you. Your not that important, AA will survive with or without you but you will not survive with out a program. And like I said-- as alcoholics, we will find any excuse in the book to escape ourselve, and many old timers have seen behaviors that prove this statement. So no, I do not blame anyone for being skeptical about your drive for recovery especially if your drs (from your explaination on their reaction) tell you that your recovery comes last--- which is exactly the opposite of what AA teaches. On top of the fact that mmj is still in early stages, so the drs have their own agenda to push as far as volunteer subjects to study.

"So I came here in hopes someone might hear my story and be able to relate. I hope that no one has to overdose like my friend Liz if MMJ or any other non-lethal drug is a valid alternative to a just condition. " like I already stated-- if you want to reach out, great! But the way you present information matter, especially in a forum where body language and tone of voice are virtually impossible to distinguish.

"I hope that I might give some incite to an old timer that there are valid uses for this and all prescribed drugs inside of AA... used under of a Drs care and 100% honest with your sponsor." the whole 'insight' part of that is just a propagated way of saying 'promote the use of mmj." And basically implies "you old timers MUST accept that it is now legally obtainable and therefore a-ok" which is not the case, no one MUST trust that you only use your rx when your in pain, just like you don't have to listen to anyone who says that you are less serious about your recovery just because this is the rx you chose. And as far as your "as long as it's prescribed" comment... We already have a pamphlet for that. So next time your sobriety is challenged, start giving out this pamphlet. Or here's an idea. IT'S JO ONES BUSINESS WHAT MEDICATIONS YOUR PRESCRIBED so if your sponsor already knows about it and is ok with it, then stop defending your behavior and accept that most people don't agree and that it's ok for people not to agree.

And if your gonna tell your story, good for you. But stop trolling around looking for fights.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

pulpits are tedious

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Aloha Dabent and thanks for the post...I read it all and measured it up against my experiences past and present...before AA and presently with 34 years alcohol free and at times pretty sober. In 1964 I was in a head-on accident that left me temporarily paralyzed from the waist down, a bit shorter than I was before the accident and a spine that learned to love to tell me on a daily basis that it wasn't in it's original condition. Chemical therapy was valium, percodan, percoset, darvon and darvoset. I also drank during this period of time and didn't have a problem doing both at the same time. Came time I found a really talented neuro-surgeon who took on my case while others were keeping me beyond arms length reach. I had to do the assessment which included my med status and after he read it told me "I'm taking your off of all of your meds. Normal people under this load of drugs wouldn't be able to walk much less drive to their appointments". I asked him what I was going to do for the pain and he told me "You will have to learn to live with it". Thank you God for this man...What I heard him say was that I was going to have to make the pain a brother...one I lived with daily". And so before I even heard of Dr. Paul and his magical statement on page 449 of the 3rd edition of the BB, every morning when I woke up I said good morning to my brother and started my day. I am no comic book super hero...the learning was daily and steadfast. I learned several manipulative exercises and studied psyco-cybernetics (still practice this because...my brother is still here). My surgeon also refused to operate after two mylograms and a discogram...telling me that the surgery would make the problem worse and then he left he islands telling his partner "don't you dare put him under the knife". I am grateful for that man and for all of the things I had to search for, find and practice which included the Al-Anon and AA programs of mind, body, spirit and emotional recovery. I made great strides at becoming pain tolerant and had my musculo-skeletal system manipulated along with my perception and responses in movement. I was pain free mostly....until....November of 2011. On the 8th of November I was assaulted by two police officers...Rodney King style...and the whole paradigm got reversed!! As I type this I am in pain without chemicals of any sort. What I have is 40+ years of practice which I can and do return to outside of habit. It is now again a new practice. The consequences are the same. The mindset is "my brother is still with me and more vocal" When my skeleton starts to cry I release it and use my muscles only. When the day is over I practice my exercises to recurve my spine and loosen my muscles and my verterbrae and then I enjoy my time with my brother out of the room and out of my life. I don't believe that the chemicals; including alcohol ever helped at all you see because I found out that I am so chemically tolerant and the surgeon understood that in order for the docs to see the affect they were looking for I had to be overdosed. Pain is my brother...it is a physical feeling. It is permanent. I know what color it is, what temperature it is, how large it is, how much it weighs and how to change all those aspects in my favor. I have family members with the same problem on mmj and a pump and all sorts of other implants and still the pain. I acknowledge that in my own may I've been blessed to accept that my life has pain and that the pain doesn't' have my life. I can no longer measure how much it hurts in relationship to anything else. Try looking up Psyco-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz and give it a read and see what it does for your thinking. Thanks for the subject and the memories. In support.

((((hugs)))) smile

Dabent · Veteran Member

Thanks Jerry. Pain is my brother also. I write this hopes that others in pain can see ways of recovery. I am not promoting any RXs or MMJ I just wanted to pass along my frustrations and experiences.
I did go for the 100% chemical free rout. The pain was so bad I ended up not sleeping, not a wink, for over 25 days. Let me tell you 25 days without sleep is not fun. I tossed out almost 2 years of sobriety. I was checked into a mental hospital where the Drs convinced me that pain control is 1# priority. They wanted me on 2x12hr oxys and 3x4hr a day ( I don't think so). After being released I went back to MMJ and have had great luck. My oxy use is down to 1 or 2 a month. This in turn has led me down the steps with passion and honesty. My life is not better now that I'm sober after all I became disabled and sober at the same time. But I am happier than I have ever been, so I guess you could say my life is better. While in the hospital people brought an AA into the place and during that meeting and after I had one hella burning bush moment. Been sober since. So thankful to the people who bring meetings into places like that. I am now returning that by taking meetings into our jail.

For others in similar situations all I can say is I am 100% honest with all my Drs, therapist, and sponsor about what goes into my body and why. I am drug tested 4 times a year to monitor my levels of all drugs. I have every drug(pain) on every 4th step. I am mad that I have to do this but when it's put in a 4th step format it really helps put it perspective. I have a gratitude list 100 pages long and the drug resentment takes up 2 spots on a column.

Meditation has been a great escape also. My perception of God has changed 100% in the nothingness of meditation. Sounds weird to find God while thinking of absolutely nothing.

As far as not telling sponsors and other about my MMJ use. I am in that camp all day. But my therapist says it is best if I am 100% open and honest with my sponsor. Friends well maybe I should not tell them. It's just nice to have a friend or two that knows everything about you and still wants to your friend. I also want to bring people over to my house but I not want to expose anyone in recovery to a house that stinks like pot. Ruhig made a great point about not wanting to sponsor people using MMJ. If it affects his sobriety to be around it then it is very selfish of me to ask him to sponsor me then expose him to that shit without his prior knowledge.

augie · Member

I'm new here -- been sober a long time -- 30+ years. I agree, we are not Doctors and should not interfere with your treatment by an M.D., Your doctors, treatment of you is between you and him as long as he knows, and you have to be "honest" with him, about your alcoholism -- and no BS'ing. About you smoking pot for your pain, that is, maybe a little iffy. I can imagine going into an AA meeting half stoned and saying you've got X amount of days sober is not going to go over very well with the group. Honesty is the main key to one's sobriety. Good luck, Closer

Dabent · Veteran Member

I have chosen, with Drs help, that I would rather be half stoned than totally wasted from narcotics. If I do not take something daily i can't go do anything, no meetings, no meeting up with folks, no meeting sponsor. I have to be drove everywhere I go for fear of a DUI or worse hitting someone and hurting them. DUI in sobriety that would suck. But I still have found a better life working the steps. I could have never guessed how happy I could be. My therapist says it is not about what you put into your body it is about what you do with it. When I have a major problem come up I try to write it out into a 4th step format not just get high and forget about. My last 4th step had a full page of resentments over MMJ and my other pain killers. My previous 3 4th steps were less than a page. I'm struggling so bad with this right now this last 4th step was 8 pages front and back. I do 4 or 5, 4th-5th steps a year for fear of this crap will send me down the wrong road. I do not want this life of chronic pain but that's what's been dealt. So I try to make the best of it.

I might not of expressed my self well in the beginning but what i want to get across is that if you are in chronic pain, an alcoholic/addict, Talk to your Dr there are many many options. Don't be afraid to bring up other ideas that they don't talk about. All the Drs I have look at me like I'm nuts when I brought up the MMJ*. But once they find out I like depressants, a lot, (yes alcohol is a depressant also) they are very willing to entertain other ideas. I first tried no less than a dozen nonnarcotics before we tried the MMJ. Some worked great for a while but most quit working after a few months. We worked on this for over a year before i got stable enough to start do a few things. It is possible to have recovery while in chronic pain.
*(MMJ is legal where I live)

I started this thread just so I could hear others thoughts on this. I was at the point of just quitting AA altogether. As my break from AA started I decide I would start posting here not just read. Well low and behold this place and the few threads I started participating in got me back to a meeting, how? I don't know. while at that meeting a guy came to me and said "remember that group we wanted to start?" Yes "well can you help get it going?" Yes. So I made another thread, (atheist meetings), and the talk in that thread lit a fire under my ass. I went to the central office ask if they need help. (I have to be there in a few hours to man the place). I have spent 15-20 hours over the last few days putting this meeting together, researching stuff for a specialized meeting. Found a place for the meeting. Bought literature, got format done (almost). When all else fails, work with another alcoholic is the answer.

"I can imagine going into an AA meeting half stoned and saying you've got X amount of days sober is not going to go over very well with the group. Honesty is the main key to one's sobriety. Good luck, Closer"
I have a major battle inside of me over this. I'm having a hard time getting past that myself. Some how I have to find a way to accept the life that has been given to me. Some days I just want to quit AA over this telling myself I don't deserve all this happiness because I get high some days. I don't take pain killers to get high, I take them when the pain is so bad I have a hard time getting to my feet. All I can do is stick by the people who know me and what i am going through. Be honest with everyone and try and help others.

augie · Member

Be Honest with yourself first. As far a helping others...thats down the road. Take it one step at a time

Try doing 90 in 90, then see how you feel.

Chana · Newbie

Sorry my reply is such a late one. I just today ran across this. I too suffer pain every second of every day. Some days I think of killing myself due to the pain, then the thought comes that that is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Problem is though it is not a temporary problem. Doctors have for more than 13 years now had me taking pain pills to help manage the pain. I hate taking them as they mess up my mind. For the longest time I wouldn't take them as I didn't want to chance messing up my sobriety. My sponsor saw this and told me to take them as prescribed and I would be ok. While I never went out drinking on them I still had to face to never ending messed up mind feeling. So now I sit without taking them until I want to chop off my own leg to ease the pain then I give in.

Often times the pain medicines given to us by doctors are highly addicting. Mine sure were. So now I am looking into getting a MMJ card. At least marijuana isn't addicting and will ease the pain. Many of my long timers friends have even suggested that I get one. As long as I do not abuse it I feel I will not lose my sobriety. There are many in AA that now have MMJ cards and for the first time since getting sober can now enjoy some type of normality in their lives.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP Chana.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what it is like to live with chronic pain. It sounds dreadful and I don't know how I would cope if i was faced with your problems.

However I do know what happens to me when I smoke pot. I get drunk immediately. One puff was all it took. But then I was using the hooch to try and relieve emotional/spiritual pain, which is not what you are talking about. What I was doing really, was taking the substance improperly, and self honesty is about the only way to bring that out.

Much is made on the forums of not playing doctor etc, and with good reason. When I came in our rooms were full of people with prescription drug addictions. They were alcoholics who had been conning their doctors and they talked about it openly. They used to identify as cross-addicted or poly addicted. The doctors in the fellowship at the time referred to it as "chewing ya piss". They recovered for the most part becasue they were able to be honest with themselves.

These days we a much more touchy about this subject. It is almost like we have a different type of alcoholic coming in now. One that would never dream of misleading their doctor and taking medication improperly. Yet the Big Book tells us that we alcoholics seldom told our doctors the truth, so where does that leave us?

It seems it is acceptable to challenge a member about any of their BS except their use of medication. If that is the case then the individual can only answer to their own conscience. If I was misleading my doctor in any way to get medication, or if I was using the incorrect amount, in either case I would be using it improperly, and that doesn't make for solid sobriety.

Rigorous self honesty would seem to be essential. Faced with pain like yours, I am sure I would be looking at every possible remedy.

God bless,
MikeH

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 21st of October 2013 05:05:15 AM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP Chana, glad you're here ...

I like what Mike H (Fyne Spirit) shared ... and if a good doctor feels you need medication, any type medication, for your condition, then I'd follow their advice ... (as long as you're not making up problems to justify the stuff)(total honesty, like Mike said)

Okieinoregon · Newbie

I have 30+ yrs of sobriety. I do consider myself sober. I only take my meds as prescribed. I'm very honest and open about my situation because I don't have secrets. It's easier to remember the one truth than multiple lies. My disability is that I have 7 ruptured discs along my spine. 2 in the lower back and 5 ruptured discs in my neck. I also have spinal stenosis in my neck, bone spurs, pinched nerves and osteoarthritis up and down my entire spine. I take multiple prescription drugs such as cyclobenzaprine daily, Sulindac, an anti inflammatory for arthritis, oxycodone and cannibas, all on a daily basis. I'm reaching out for those who are in the same situation or willing to answer any questions or doubts anyone has concerning my situation.

I have worked the steps multiple times and I have not had any type of alcohol nor any drugs not prescribed to me since my sobriety date of 8/28/86.

Okieinoregon aka Grant B

-- Edited by Okieinoregon on Monday 16th of January 2017 12:53:28 AM

Okieinoregon · Newbie

I have 30+ yrs of sobriety. I do consider myself sober. I only take my meds as prescribed. I'm very honest and open about my situation because I don't have secrets. It's easier to remember the one truth than multiple lies. My disability is that I have 7 ruptured discs along my spine. 2 in the lower back and 5 ruptured discs in my neck. I also have spinal stenosis in my neck, bone spurs, pinched nerves and osteoarthritis up and down my entire spine. I take multiple prescription drugs such as the muscle relaxer cyclobenzaprine daily, Sulindac or torodol, as needed, which are anti inflammatories for my ostearthritis, oxycodone daily and cannibas, all on a daily basis. I'm reaching out for those who are in the same situation and I'm willing to answer any questions or doubts anyone has concerning my situation.

My sobriety date is 8/28/86 and have not drank any type of alcoholic beverage nor have I taken any prescribed medication not prescribed to me by my pain management specialist.

God Bless,

okieinoregon

-- Edited by Okieinoregon on Monday 16th of January 2017 01:01:51 AM

Bunchie · Veteran Member

I have no problems with someone smoking medical marijuana or smoking marijuana for other reasons , ( anxiety, stress, etc), if they come to AA to stop drinking and it helps them stop drinking, I have no problem with it whatsoever, I know this is not what AA suggests, but from firsthand experience watching my father fail at sobriety multiple times, the only time he succeeded at sobriety was when he started smoking pot. This was many years ago ( early 80s) when 50 year old people did not smoke marijuana, but I saw how he succeeded from drinking , he actually started eating and quit cigarettes as well a few years later. He was a chronic Alcoholic as bad as you could get , mariguana was a miracle drug to our family, it transformed my father back to humanity and my mother was forever grateful, she would actually call my friends to get some for him if he was getting low. He was not in AA , he tried it for awhile but he stayed sober from alcohol for many years with the aid of mariguana.

Gita_B · Member

SteveP wrote:
Yep, only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. AA has no view on out side issues, etc.

That said, if someone starts sharing at length about pills, pot, gambling, food or whatever else etc at a meeting, they can rightly be suggested to afterward to stick their sharing to their experiences with alcohol, since AA is precisely that -- *Alcoholics* Anonymous.

Steve

Thank you. This is why I stopped going to local meetings. I quit alcohol when I was 24, many years before I moved here. But I come from an area of Canada famous for its relaxed attitude towards cannabis. I just cannot see it as a big deal. It is a medicine that is gentle enough to administer to someone who is dying. I sure miss my home group; after the Friday night meeting we would go over to someone's house and the guys would bring out their guitars and it was just plain FUN.

And yes, I still remember when newcomers were greeted with a cup of coffee and a cigarette. AA is supposed to work through attraction rather than promotion but it's not very attractive when new people find themselves being judged.

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

The marijuana issue as it relates to sobriety in AA is a complex matter. I don't use drugs of any sort, but I am fortunate to have avoided serious injuries and illnesses. I wonder what Bill W. and Dr. Bob would say and do about marijuana?

MicroMacro · Member

It's your life. Not everyone is going to agree with every fraction of it. That's okay - they don't have to. But if you want any peace, it's going to be important to understand that other people's disapproval isn't a reflection of you - it's a reflection of them. That's why it's so important not to take things personally (ever - that's a tough one) - things people do and say (or don't do and say) are always a reflection of them - never the perceived intended target.

I know that looks weird, but the truth sometimes does.

Sponsors are life coffee - you can find some at nearly every meeting. You'll find what you're looking for in a sponsor eventually. I think you'd be hard pressed not to as long as you're going to new meetings and making an effort to meet new people.

Best.

-- Edited by MicroMacro on Saturday 18th of February 2017 01:29:23 PM

-- Edited by MicroMacro on Saturday 18th of February 2017 01:29:57 PM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Of course we always recommend newcomers to go get a medical Dr's checkup early on, cause of the medical issues that extended alcohol use can start ... ... ... If a doctor prescribes MJ for a good reason, then I'm good with that ... BUT, I've heard the medical community says it's good to have a glass of Red Wine in the evening ... NOT for me ... cause I'd never be able to stop at one ... I'd be at two or three bottles a night in no time ...

So, all I can say about that is 'To Thine Own Self Be True' ... you know whether or not you're take'n stuff for the unbearable pain OR just for the 'high' ... (from a world class EXCUSE maker, me)

Pappy

Afella · Veteran Member

Tanin wrote:
The marijuana issue as it relates to sobriety in AA is a complex matter. I don't use drugs of any sort, but I am fortunate to have avoided serious injuries and illnesses. I wonder what Bill W. and Dr. Bob would say and do about marijuana?

The Legacy of Recovery is an awesome read and a great place to try and find answer to your question....

--------------------

The Legacy of Recovery
Grapevine March 1971

Afella · Veteran Member

-----------------------------------------
The Legacy of Recovery
with Bill Wilson

The Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.

Many of us, upon first seeing those words, asked ourselves the question "Can it be just that simple?" -- and then heard a voice inside us answer "Yes."

Bill's application of AA principles to ever-changing circumstances was another of his remarkable talents. Day in and day out, letters would arrive at his desk asking for his "last word" on a matter of AA policy. And, in answer after answer Bill would fall back upon the basic principles of AA's three Legacies, tempered by wisdom, humor, perspective, and regard for the feelings of others.

One warm example occurred in 1968 when a well-meaning AA wrote to Bill, in deep concern, about an influx of youthful hippies or flower children to local AA groups, along with their distinctive manner of dress, sexual mores, and other unorthodox behavior, including the use of drugs. The writer feared that this particular invasion might be "a very real threat to our wonderful, God-given program."

Bill's reply was typical of his use of AA principles to meet new challenges.

"Your letter about the hippie problem, so-called, was mighty interesting to me. I doubt that we need to be alarmed about this situation, because there have been precedents out of the past. All sorts of outfits have tried to move in on us, including communists and heroin addicts, prohibitionists and do-gooders of other persuasions.

"Nearly all of these people, who happened to have an individual problem with alcohol, not only failed to change AA, but, in the long run, AA changed them. I have a number of them among my closest friends today, and they are among the best AA's I know.

"You also have some people who are not alcoholics, but are addicts of other kinds. A great many AAs have taken pity on these people, and have actually tried to make them full-fledged AA's. Of course, their identification with alcoholics is no good at all, and the groups themselves easily stop this practice in the normal course of AA affairs.

"Thoughtful AAs, however, encourage these sponsors to bring addicts to open meetings, just as they would any other interested people. In the end, these addicts usually gravitate to other forms of therapy. They are not received on the platform in open meetings unless they have an alcohol problem, and closed meetings are, of course, denied them. We know that we cannot do everything for everybody with an addiction problem.

"There has also occurred lately a new development centering upon hippies who have LSD or marijuana troubles -- not so much stronger stuff. Many of these kids appear to be alcoholics also, and they are flocking into AA, often with excellent results.

"Some weeks ago, there was a young people's convention of AAs. Shortly thereafter, four of these kids visited the office. I saw one young gal prancing down the hall, hair flying, in a mini-skirt, wearing love beads and the works. I thought, 'Holy smoke, what now!' She told me she was the oldest member of the young people's group in her area -- age twenty-two! They had kids as young as sixteen. I was curious and took the whole party out to lunch.

"Well, they were absolutely wonderful. They talked (and acted) just about as good a kind of AA as I've seen anywhere. I think all of them said they had had some kind of drug problem, but had kicked that, too. When they first came around, they had insisted on their own ideas of AA, but in the end they found AA plenty good enough as it was. Though they needed their own meetings, they found interest and inspiration in the meetings of much older folks as well.

"Perhaps, as younger people come into AA, we shall have to put up with some unconventional nonsense -- with patience and good humor, let's hope. But it should be well worth the attempt. And also, if various hippie addicts want to form their own sort of fellowship along AA lines, by all means let us encourage them. We need deny them only the AA name, and assure them that the rest of our program is theirs for the taking and using -- any part or all of it.

"For these reasons, I feel hopeful and not a bit scared by this trend. Of course, I'm no prophet. I may be mistaken, so please keep me posted. This is a highly interesting and perhaps significant development. I certainly do not think it ought to be fought. Instead, it ought to be encouraged in what we already know to be workable channels.

"In affection ... Bill"
(c) AA Grapevine, March, 1971

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

Afella wrote:
Tanin wrote:
The marijuana issue as it relates to sobriety in AA is a complex matter. I don't use drugs of any sort, but I am fortunate to have avoided serious injuries and illnesses. I wonder what Bill W. and Dr. Bob would say and do about marijuana?

The Legacy of Recovery is an awesome read and a great place to try and find answer to your question....

--------------------

The Legacy of Recovery
Grapevine March 1971

Good article, Afella. Thanks.

I think Bill says what he has always said: anyone with a drinking problem is welcome in AA, regardless of the other addictions they have. The cross-addicted and even the alcoholic hippies can come on in to AA. And they probably should.

But I'm wondering about the accelerating diffusion of non-addictive use of marijuana in society and, resultingly, in AA's recovery membership ranks.

What happens if, say, half of the 1.2 million U.S. members end up using marijuana regularly? Would that change how AA works?

What happens one day if, while walking from the parking lot to go into a small AA meeting, I come across a half-dozen guys who are smoking joints before they go into the meeting with me? What happens if that is a regular occurrence?

I don't know that Bill W. covered that, um, eventuality.

Gita_B · Member

So my sponsor, this was back in the late 80's, was one of those, um, hippies. Actually he was a high school English teacher in a small mountain town/hippie commune, drank himself into bed with a chronic back problem and with the help of sobriety and medicinal pot butter was able to recover and retire in good health. Anyway, he introduced me to some life-changing literature such as Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount and Scott Peck's The Road Less Travelled. He also introduced me to AA although it took another three years of drinking for me to arrive at the first step.

Anyway he had a copy of Pass It On and got me to read, I think it was Chap 23, where Bill W. does LSD. I tried to look for this online but found this instead, with the above anecdote on "youthful hippies": aaagnostica.org/2015/05/10/bill-wilsons-experience-with-lsd/

I think it describes better than I can the essence of Bill W's opinion on "sobriety", which is not just abstention but a real change at the fundamental level of the spirit.

Our modern society has become so secular and religion so associated with intolerance and extremism, that your average drunk will run away shrieking at the mere mention of "God". I think this is the challenge of AA in this century, to make spirituality relevant and alive again. I was initially attracted to AA, not because I thought I had a drinking problem, I was only 21! but because these people were friendly and helpful and happy and enjoying life.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Afella wrote:

-----------------------------------------
The Legacy of Recovery
with Bill Wilson

The Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.

Many of us, upon first seeing those words, asked ourselves the question "Can it be just that simple?" -- and then heard a voice inside us answer "Yes."

Bill's application of AA principles to ever-changing circumstances was another of his remarkable talents. Day in and day out, letters would arrive at his desk asking for his "last word" on a matter of AA policy. And, in answer after answer Bill would fall back upon the basic principles of AA's three Legacies, tempered by wisdom, humor, perspective, and regard for the feelings of others.

One warm example occurred in 1968 when a well-meaning AA wrote to Bill, in deep concern, about an influx of youthful hippies or flower children to local AA groups, along with their distinctive manner of dress, sexual mores, and other unorthodox behavior, including the use of drugs. The writer feared that this particular invasion might be "a very real threat to our wonderful, God-given program."

Bill's reply was typical of his use of AA principles to meet new challenges................"

"In affection ... Bill"
(c) AA Grapevine, March, 1971

Awesome article, thanks Afeela

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

YES, ... I totally agree with StPete, ... great article for sure ...

Pappy

StartNow · Veteran Member

Hi Dabent,

I tore my rotator cuff quite badly a year ago. I also have severe arthritis in my left knee, which is chronic pain. I was prescribed pain killers for the injury but after a short time I found they were making me tired and lethargic so I went back to see my doctor and asked for an alternative. He was going to ramp up the prescription to opiate-based drugs like oxy and I said 'No way' based on what I knew about the addictive nature of these drugs. I suggested medical marijuana and now have a prescription for it. If you get one stick to the strain with a high CBD. They're great for pain management and have next to no THC so you can function normally and not be stoned. You can also get it in an oil form so you don't have to smoke it and it lasts 6-8 hours. The high THC is good for sleeping and you don't wake up feeling all grogged out. I don't find it an issue at all to use MMJ but that's just me and it's a decision you can only make. Chronic back bad is the worst. I don't smoke it every day because I've had surgery and my recovery from the procedure has gone extremely well. Alcohol, on the other hand, is a completely animal (beast is more appropriate). I know myself and how it can escalate and decided to stop drinking because it was ruining my life. The MMJ? I can take it or leave it now and go for quite an extended period of time without a thought of it because my pain management is under control. After my surgery in May I took oxy's to get over the hump for the first couple of days to stay ahead of the pain and then flushed the rest on day 3 because they make you so wasted and moved on to T3's for a week and stopped the meds completely.

Not to disparage Bill W in any way but he did experiment with LSD at one point as a means to achieve a spiritual awakening. Sometimes stalwarts forget about that or chose to ignore it. He simply didn't fully comprehend the ramifications of its use. The same can be said for many other drugs in that time frame.

While I can see a recovering alcoholics point about drug use (MMJ) they really need to check their "Holier than thou" attitude and put a cork in it. If they don't know first hand the agony of chronic back pain and challenge a medical professionals diagnosis and prescribed treatment they're talking out of their ass.

Hope this helps.

D

-- Edited by StartNow on Tuesday 1st of August 2017 09:04:15 AM

Tanin · MIP Old Timer

StartNow wrote:

While I can see a recovering alcoholics point about drug use (MMJ) they really need to check their "Holier than thou" attitude and put a cork in it. If they don't know first hand the agony of chronic back pain and challenge a medical professionals diagnosis and prescribed treatment they're talking out of their ass.

Hope this helps.

D
-- Edited by StartNow on Tuesday 1st of August 2017 09:04:15 AM

Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't take a position on medical marijuana.

No one can credibly say that AA opposes or supports it. That is somewhat of a big problem, but that's the way it is.

Of course, individuals can have an opinion on this issue.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

I very much agree with Pickle ... AA's fundamentals and positions are quite clear, to me anyway ... if a qualified professional Doctor prescribes MMJ for a condition that no other 'medicine' will satisfy, then by all means, follow the doctor's professional advice ... over the last few months, I have had the need for some pain killers ... knowing the risk, I was very careful to cease their use when the period of pain had past ... but that's just me ... ... ... goes back to one of AA's slogans, ... 'To Thine Own Self Be True' ... ... ...

Pappy

StartNow · Veteran Member

Thanks for pointing out the clarification on AA's position. I wasn't referring to AA as a whole, I was referring to the sponsor mentioned in the original post. I should have been more clear as it could be interpreted as 'AA' rather than the individuals opinion. Pointing that out is appreciated.

Peace

D

Visionz · Senior Member

There are many types or should I say, Levels, of alcoholism.

I am the type where no matter what the reason, if I start on something that looks harmless like smokin weed, within months I am scraping the bottom and go straight to harder drugs and chugging bottom shelf vodka. We know what happens after that.

In my opinion, real alcoholics are the worst type to flirt with drugs because we do them the same way we drink, which is disasterously.

Medical bud? = No way to me

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Visionz wrote:

In my opinion, real alcoholics are the worst type to flirt with drugs because we do them the same way we drink, which is disasterously.
Medical bud? = No way to me

This is my experience.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify, but I have an idea that the medical version of marijuana does not have the mind altering properties of the regular stuff. Or is that hemp. There is some different active ingredient that works on the pain.

Lunalele · Newbie

"Marijuana is not addicting" - It was for me. Mentally, and physically.

Mentally, well, it was a mind altering substance. It is how I escaped. I only turned to alcohol when I was facing hair follicle drug testing and had to stop. That jumping of addictions happened at an alarming rate. I hated alcohol, too. I just needed my mental escape from reality.

Physically, and beyond just not being able to eat or sleep without THC in my system, I would often get sick... violently sick, and almost always when away from home. I found comfort from the non-stop, day upon day puke-fests by spending hours and hours in the bathtub with warm water. I often went to the hospital and even admitted a few times after my potassium would reach dangerously low levels. Now-a-days with more studies (and the legalization of marijuana in some states), there is now a name for this phenomenon. Quite frankly, I was quite relieved to know what was causing me being ill when away from home (aka, away from my weed) and in hospitals such as the ones in Dickenson, ND, Bismark, ND, The Mile High City (pre-legalization) or even Omaha, or my hometown.

What is it that makes me so sure I suffered from many bouts of "Cannabinoid Hyperemesis?" It specifically mentions that what makes this particular type of withdrawal unique is that patients find relief in warm baths or showers.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2664574/

That all said, when I was "allowed" to smoke pot again, I thought I'd stop drinking alcohol. Nope. I really have to accept that, for me, I cannot have moderation when it comes to any mind altering drug. I recently had my ankle replaced, and had a LOT of help from others to keep me on track. I HATE pain pills, but damn, that's what I said about alcohol at one time, too.

I am thankful, too, that I now can travel without the worry of being damn near deathly ill while out of town. "I will know a new freedom," and such. ;)