I've seen lots of old timers who are atheist and in AA. They seemingly connect to the values that emerge through participation in AA and that is their God in many cases. The only problem with being atheist is when it translates into being closed minded. Building faith in something is essential for AA to have maximum benefit. Those who are so sure they know exactly what God is are equally closed minded as a hard core atheist. How is it possible to literally know what God is? Similarly, it's just as presumptuous to say you know what God isn't.

I would say that if you are determined to not have spiritual growth, then AA is going to be a frustrating experience for you. What do you do when you have resentment? What do you do when you realize you have no control over a situation and nothing you can do will change things? You have obviously learned to have faith in something and whatever that is, is your higher power. You have turned your will over to it to a large degree or you'd be drunk right now.

Perhaps is karma, the law of averages, science, love, group dynamics - All of these or any one of these are higher powers that are sufficient in AA. You may live in an area that is bible belt or very conservative. When I travel, I find AA is often mirroring the culture of the area I am in. If you were going to AA meetings in Berkely or NY or something, I'm guessing you would see people with all kinds of interesting higher powers and such.

Some very difficult things have happened to you and your wife - That's not necessarily reason to abandon all belief in god, mercy, forgiveness, love, trust....or other forms of faith.

For some reason, I was born Gay. I'm not going to have children either and I have spent 40 years of life as the last openly discriminated against minority on the planet. Do you think I asked for this? My chief prayer to "God" when growing up was "please God don't let me be Gay." In any case, this was a big set up and I spent most of my life as an angry victim across multiple situations. I was unable to see my part in things. Flash foward, God (whatever he/she/it is) made me this way and I do need to let go and be a responsible person. I need faith and forgiveness in my life because I cannot afford to be a victim, to be angry, to complain about anything. When I do that it shapes my world to be a horrible place.

So....I pray to a God I DO NOT understand and I think that is the case with a significant portion of people in AA. The more I have opened up to the possibility of God - The more I see that certain things - miracles - are happening and I am grateful - not a sad, angry, complaining victim (and I'm not saying that this is what you are - only my story). When I was closed off and so sure bad things were happening to me, that God was letting me get crapped on or that God must not exist because I had bad things happened to me, my view of what "could be" in the world was VERY limited. I also used to get annoyed with people who were very "theistic" as you state because I viewed them as simple minded, proselytizing, and gullible. Of course, when I came into AA feeling empty and broke, I stopped judging those folks and looked at what they had that I wanted. I didn't want their "God" but I did want their faith because I didnt' want to be angry, miserable, and suffering any more. Hence, I don't get angry when I hear people shouting and proclaiming "God" "Jesus" or whatever now. Faith is a wonderful thing.

Lastly, there are portions of your story that aren't really about you but you are holding on to the resentments for the other person. Who got raped? Who is really the one that cannot have children? Your anger and resentment is going to hurt your wife because SHE is the one that these things happened to. If she could find some comfort in a higher power, would you talk her out of it due to your own conviction that no God exists? That would be pretty self-centered. Don't get me wrong here. I think it would be awful to 1. Have your wife in prison for so long. 2. Have something so awful and traumatizing happen to her. and I also applaud you for sticking by her all this time as well as for staying sober. 

In terms of her being raped in prison, at least if you could keep the resentment contained to the actual perpetrator.  When you don't have a higher power, resentments fester and grow larger and more distorted.  I suspect this is why you view that her captors and rapist kept her prisoner for 6 years after the rape.  That's not the case because she was going to be in prison for the whole 24 years anyhow right?  Whatever she did to get in prison was what kept her prisoner the whole time.  The rape was somethng horrible but unrelated.  It doesn't need to become part of a more complicated and distorted resentment towards the system.

At some point though - you have to start feeling that you didn't get sober to be angry and now that you 2 are together, might as well squeeze the most joy out of every day and to do that, you have to let go of the past. It all happened for some reason unknown to you. Perhaps it's just so that you can be strong and pass your story along to others (or for her to be able to) and then help them. That's a higher power there too.

If it's that your higher power is less traditional than most folks you meet at AA meetings in your area, I would suggest that you find people who have like minded beliefs in what an HP is and start your own group. This is how all new AA groups start.....with a resentment and a coffee pot (so I hear).

In support of you and your wife,

Mark

-- Edited by pinkchip on Friday 22nd of June 2012 10:08:24 AM

Hi pinkchip and thanks for weighing in.  I have the wood chopped and am taking a break before the carrying water starts and so...

The only problem with being atheist is when it translates into being closed minded. Building faith in something is essential for AA to have maximum benefit. Those who are so sure they know exactly what God is are equally closed minded as a hard core atheist. How is it possible to literally know what God is? Similarly, it's just as presumptuous to say you know what God isn't.

Agreed, generally speaking.  My only tentativeness is surrounding the word 'faith' as it is such a loaded word - like 'love'.  It means different things to everyone and so communication can break down if we assume we know what the other person means when we use such words, you know?  Anywho, I have faith in karma and as such, believe that everything works the way it is supposed to...not in a preordained way or in a divine inteference way, but it is faith nonetheless.

I would say that if you are determined to not have spiritual growth, then AA is going to be a frustrating experience for you.

I clearly explained this poorly.  My spirituality is of paramount importance to me - but like love and faith, spirituality means something different to everyone and, generally speaking, spirituality means Christianity with all its trappings here (and by here I mean where I am geographically specifically and the United States more generally). 

  When I travel, I find AA is often mirroring the culture of the area I am in. If you were going to AA meetings in Berkely...

Quite true.  Interestingly, I have just moved from the Russian River area, just north of Berkeley.

So....I pray to a God I DO NOT understand and I think that is the case with a significant portion of people in AA.

As I did not previously state my Buddhist roots clearly, I can see where it might be wise to suggest that someone try this approach who has no faith in a god - but for me it would be akin to abandoning my 'faith' if you will and being converted.  Conversion to another religion is not what I am looking for - nor what I think you are suggesting.

The more I see that certain things - miracles - are happening...

There was a recent study that I can't for the life of me reference, that stated that people have a human experience every few seconds.  A bird flying overhead is an experience, stopping at a traffic light is another, etc.  At this rate, we are bound to have a million to one experience once a month or so and once a lifetime we are statistically expected to have a one in a billion type experience.  To me, that doesn't take away any of the wonder - it just removes the connotation that most place upon a divine hand.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Lastly, there are portions of your story that aren't really about you but you are holding on to the resentments for the other person. Who got raped? Who is really the one that cannot have children? Your anger and resentment is going to hurt your wife because SHE is the one that these things happened to.

I'm really sinking my teeth into this because there may be some truth in it - but I don't see it yet.  If you would, could you say more on this?  I rejected the idea so quickly that it set alarm bells off for me and for this reason I'd like to examine this further.  Clearly it was my wife who was raped but there are other factors here.  Though not a Christian, I get the idea that we have become one.  What you do to her, you do to me.  In my own belief system, I find that our relationship has given me a glimpse of what it means to be one with all.  If I can be separate and yet one with her - then everyone else is within reach.

Beyond that though, the powerlessness is beyond anything that I have experienced - and I'm an alcoholic and drug addict, I know powerlessness.  In fact, I just pulled this up - it's a bit long but I wrote it years ago purging and trying to cope.  There's a message for me in there toward the end of course, I'm just having difficulty accessing it as clearly as I once could. 

-- Edited by Angell on Friday 22nd of June 2012 03:11:33 PM

-- Edited by Angell on Friday 22nd of June 2012 03:35:25 PM

I am grateful for the responses I've received and want to address each but as Rob delightfully put it, it's time to chop wood and carry water and so, I'll have to return to this post a bit later. I do want to throw one note out there before I go though...

I got a pm from a wonderful member of MIP who mentioned that they are not sure what I could take from their contributions because they were relatively new in the program. For that person and anyone else ever feeling that way: The Big Book, which many revere and quote, was written by a group of drunks - none of which had more than four years sobriety at the time of its publication. Time doesn't equal sobriety or spirituality in my opinion. Whatever insight you have is valuable - perhaps even moreso than someone with fifty years. The basics are what keep us sober, and most newcomers haven't had time to complicate the basics yet. Love to all.

Angell - I was going to come back and delete my whole post cuz it was blunt and I don't walk in your shoes. I am glad you did not get offended and took the time to respond. It would appear you have lots of humility and that is what makes for a stronger program probably more than anything else.

Stepchild - thank you so much. :)

Pinkchip - I am so grateful you didn't delete your post. It would have been my loss. Incidentally, when I made my first trip into AA back in 1978, my first sponsor was gay though I didn't know it at the time. On my 90 days he took me out to Denny's to 'drop the bomb'. When he was done I was quiet for a long time before asking, "So are you saying you don't want to be my sponsor any more?" Odd how I'd make that about me eh?

I read this thread with a lot of interest ... many good points are made and many more questions asked or implied ... I will not propose to tell anyone who or what to believe regarding God's existence ... for me? ... He/She is very real ... I see Him/Her daily when I talk to neighbors and go to meetings and visit that friend in the hospital .... AA has led me to an understanding of a God that I never knew ... And this reminded me of an email I received a few years ago regarding death ... I finally found it, thought it may mean something to someone out there ... It said 'volumes' to me ...



> ~DEATH~
WHAT A WONDERFUL WAY TO EXPLAIN IT..

A sick man turned to his doctor as he was preparing to
Leave the examination room and said,

'Doctor, I am afraid to die.
Tell me what lies on the other side.'

Very quietly, the doctor said, 'I don't know.'

'You don't know? You, a Christian man,
 Do not know what is on the other side?'

The doctor was holding the handle of the door;
On the other side came a sound of scratching and whining,
And as he opened the door, a dog sprang into the room
And leaped on him with an eager show of gladness.

Turning to the patient, the doctor said,
'Did you notice my dog?

He's never been in this room before.
He didn't know what was inside.
He knew nothing except that his master was here,
And when the door opened , he sprang in without fear.

I know little of what is on the other side of death,
But I do know one thing...

I know my Master is there and that is enough.'

 

May you trust God that you are exactly
Where you are meant to be.

I believe that friends are quiet angels
Who lift us to our feet when our wings 
Have trouble remembering how to fly.

I too could tell a story about one near and dear to me. A story about an evil stepfather, a mother that just didn't care and a decade of depraved abuse. I could tell you of the damage it caused and how the earthquake continues to this day. I could tell you how it ate away at my soul as I struggled (and still do) to understand how such a thing could happen. I could write a whole book on it, but it's not my story to tell and it would probably sicken you. I know it would sicken me to tell it.

So why did this loving God allow such a thing? Where was He when it happened? Why did I receive the miracle that let me put down the bottle but to this day there has been no healing for her? It makes you want to shake your fist at the sky and curse sometimes, it really does.

But I think I understand now. I think I get it. Not in my head but in my heart. Everything that obeys the laws of physics is permitted in the universe. There is no right and wrong. There is just near and far from the Source. That's it. We are all as near or far from God (or god or The Source or The Creator or whatever you like to think of it as) as we choose to be. I am closer than I was when I was drinking because I choose to use this program and to get closer. The stepfather is far away because he chooses his selfish desires because that is where he wants to be. The lady chooses to stay in the middle ground because of fear and pain and confusion. But it is there for all three of us regardless of past deeds. It is also a daily choice. I can move away from it and back to who I was very quickly. The stepfather can have an awakening and move there just as quickly if he is sincere. If she wants healing it is there but she has to trust enough to let go of the pain.

That's it. You don't have to like it but there it is. It's your choice to go one way or the other. Bargaining, yelling, ignoring, denying and things like that might make you feel better (or worse) but it won't change your options. For most people it doesn't matter. They can bounce around between any of the states and depending on what you choose either to be considered a good bloke or a prick but that's about it. For us it's much more simple than that. We choose closer and live happy or we choose far and die insane. Of course making the choice to get closer is hard. It takes a lot of swallowed pride and an open mind, but I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know.

So if it helps to consider the Source as whatever it was that put the Big Bang in motion instead of a Superhuman in the sky - a sort of Power rather than a Being - then maybe that's a way to look at it. The prayer and meditation are not so much as messages to Him (or Her or It) but disciplines that allow you to move closer and / or tap into that Power. It's sort of how I see it but I don't think I can find the words to make it clearer.

As with everything I ever offer on these boards take all, some or none of it as you see fit.

The other thing that strikes me Angell is that now that you wife is really starting to get active in AA, and because she seemingly has some history of alcoholism (though you didn't specify much there I guess because that is her problem) - This all qualifies you for alanon.

Not saying you "should" go but you could and that would help more directly with the feelings of powerless over all the horrible things that have happened to her. A significant amount of folks in alanon have had to sit back and watch their spouses go through hell (regardless of how much the reason is or was alcohol).

pinkchip wrote:

---

The other thing that strikes me Angell is that now that you wife is really starting to get active in AA, and because she seemingly has some history of alcoholism (though you didn't specify much there I guess because that is her problem) - This all qualifies you for alanon.

Not saying you "should" go but you could and that would help more directly with the feelings of powerless over all the horrible things that have happened to her. A significant amount of folks in alanon have had to sit back and watch their spouses go through hell (regardless of how much the reason is or was alcohol).

Hi again Mark,

   I didn't really talk about my wifes problems with alcohol because there really isn't anything to talk about.  Mandatory twelve step meeting attendance is pretty much a default for the courts these days it seems.

   My wife was kidnapped at fifteen years old by human traffickers and brought to a metropolitan area where she was sold into the sex trade.  She saw an opportunity to escape and took it.  Someone was in her way and she killed them.  Turned out that particular person was innocent.  There was no alcohol involved in her life before or since.

   There were drugs however.  Unlike most sex traffickers, the person who bought her tried to use drugs as a way to control her.  I have become involved in the fight against sex trafficking and done some speaking over the years, teling her story at conventions and the such - giving her a voice when she couldn't use hers (being in prison and all).  Anywho, as I said, drugs are usually not involved as the victim can become more dependent on the drugs than they are on their captor - which doesn't work well for control.  However, there was no drug addiction because she escaped early enough.  She didn't take drugs voluntarily and hates what they do to her - for obvious reasons.

   That said, alanon might have its advantages although the lack of alcoholism in my wifes past does muddy the water somewhat.  You are right though, the feelings of powerlessness are probably very similar...and as with AA, alcohol is no doubt just a symptom.

---

 

Pappy,

The book is being written as we speak...or rather, two books. It's a two volume story. :)

Angell I also initially got sober in 1992 as an atheist, I have taken countless alcoholics through the steps that were atheist, this is a post I wrote last year about how I got around the whole "God" issue, my God isn't Yahweh or Jehovah, I don't believe in a deity, but now that I did find "my God" as an atheist/agnostic I have learned that the truth is God can't be described, and we all have to create some version that works for us, so now I can talk to a full blown Christian and understand what (s)he is saying, we just have different vehicles to describe the totality, the great reality, the oneness of all things.

 

Here is how I taught my sponsees:

 

Hello, My name is Andrew and I am an Alcoholic

I hope this is appropriate, and I am sorry I repeat myself a few times, I am only hoping to show how I was able to work the twelve steps as an atheist/agnostic.

I use the word "God" in this post a number of times, it's not to "convert" anyone, but to tell you I was able to work the twelve steps of AA as an Agnostic/Atheist. I HAVE to use the WORD God a few times, because there is NO other word that will work, please understand I am NOT referring to a deity, but to EVERYTHING, not an "Otherness' or a "Guiding Intelligence" but simply EVERYTHING.

It's my experience the Twelve Steps work to bring about recovery from Alcoholism, and I believe you needn't have a deity for this to work, and it's my experience that I was able to do this without changing one word in The Big Book, I just changed my own definition of a few words. I have brought maybe thirty Agnostic/Atheists men (sponsees) through the steps using what I learned.

First, I believe the twelve steps are a mathematical equation that when worked bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism.

There is only one hang up, The word "God" in those steps. This post is how to get around that without needing a deity.

This is going to be a LONG post, if you suffer (like I do from a short attention span, look ahead to the Bolded parts for step by step instructions for what I did to work the steps in AA without a Deity.)

A thread I participated in recently in The AA forum made me feel the need for this post, as what follows literally saved my life. When I got sober I was rabidly anti-Christian, anti-religion and anti-religious.

I see Christians in meetings and online that think there is no "Christian Dogma" in the BB, and the attitudes of some AA's made me realize the need for this Post, the quote in particular that inspired me to write this was:

If I would have been presented with this attitude or been told this when I was new I would be a dead man.

Literally, If I was told to get God or get out and go drink like I actually have heard in some meetings, I would be dead today. Me learning how to work the steps and get around the vast Christianity in the Book saved my life, I was, as I mentioned, rabidly anti-Christian and anti-religious when I got sober in 1992. If I hadn't figured how to remove the Christianity from the message I would never had been able to stay long enough to get sober.

Today I am ambivalent, which means I have strong feelings on both sides of the issue, or in other words, I don't care. I can read Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Wiccan, Old Druidic Lore, -some- Christianity, and find wisdom anywhere without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Technically, I guess closer to anything I am a Taoist, which is simply "Sh1t Happens", literally translated The "Tao Te Ching" just means The Book of the virtue of how things are. There is no deity in Taoism, basically the premise is sh1t rolls downhill, and if you have a problem with that it's your problem, and if you stand downhill from said sh1t, your gonna get a mouthful. The "Acceptance speech' in the BB is taoism at it's finest.

You could "label" me an Atheist and an Agnostic, because technically I am, but I feel I am "Gnostic" which comes from the Greek word "Gnosis' which means "knowledge" a Gnostic, or my version thereof believes I can "evolve" as it were and that any "bit" of "God" I ever will be found will be in my own heart, When I see the word "God" I use the dictionary definition "The Great Reality"

If you don't believe in Reality get a staple gun, put about fifteen staples in your body, maybe one or two in your eyeball, then get back to me. That's what I mean by "reality". "The Great Reality" to me just means everything and everything in it, so I can "see" the word "God" and not be bothered by it, I don't believe in a deity, I don't believe in an "Otherness". More on this later, sorry to use that word so early.

The First Chapter in The Tao Te Ching says, That which can be explained is not the way things are, and the way things are can't be explained.

I can build a house, paint it, furnish it, and describe it to the best of my ability, I can describe the walls, the windows, the floor etc, but what I can NEVER explain is "the space" inside the house and that is what I actually live in. All I can ever convey to you is what color the walls are and what it looks like, I can never give you the experience of being inside my house unless you do the work and come and visit me.

That is the problem in a nutshell with spirituality and the Big Book, all the words, the mention of the word God, the HE, and FATHER, and GUIDING INTELLIGENCE, is just what color the walls are "painted" by the men who "painted" in the only colors they knew, which was the language of Christianity. I will call this language baby poop green. I had to get past the fact I hated baby poop green and actually read what these men were saying while tossing the Christian language out.

OK, on to business, The Big Book, TO ME is a Christian Based Text written by Christians, for Christians, and in order for me to work those steps, I had to remove all the "Christian Dogma" and figure out how to get past the word "God" and what I viewed as all the Christian Blather and "God talk" I saw and heard in the "rooms" of Alcoholics Anonymous.

AA is a "spiritual" program, so it uses "spiritual" language, for me I had to let go of my previous concepts and definitions and make new ones. The Dictionary actually was helpful for this.

First: I was told don't worry about the word "God" until you are on your third step

This proved to be one of the most important things ever told to me in AA, it literally saved my life, by the time I was working the third step with a sponsor, I no longer had a problem with "The Word" God

As I stated earlier I believe to me the twelve steps are a mathematical equation where if you strip away the "Christian dogma*" and when you see the "integer" "God" you plug in your own "value" for a "power greater then yourself" then work steps one through twelve, arriving at "having HAD a spiritual awakening as THE result of these steps"

where spiritual awakening = personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism (our more religious members call it God consciousness) that means our "non" or "less" religious members call it a "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

Each step has conditions and promises, ie; If you do this like this you get this, which to me have never failed, when I do this like this I get this, the most famous of which are the ninth step promises, "If we are painstaking about this phase of our recovery we will know a new freedom and a new happiness etc. etc."

To me these (the steps) have proven to be as unfailing as a math equation, yes, a lot of people in Calc or algebra don't end up with the same answers as me, is math or the professor to blame or is it the result of people plugging the wrong value into an integer or getting part of the process wrong which results in an incorrect answer?

There are a LOT of ways to write A + B = C, and a LOT of ways to "arrive" at "C" as "The Conclusion", C being abstinence from alcohol, AA is by no means the only way, but, in my experience I have NEVER seen it "fail" anyone who THOROUGHLY followed it's path as is suggested.

Math isn't for everyone, and neither is AA, it's just an answer that worked "for us", but the end result for both is the same, if you do this like this, you get this.

It almost doesn't matter what that "Power" is, as long as it's "not me". Women can use the actual fact of "giving birth" or creating life" as a "higher power" as far as I am concerned, and Men can use their knocker, hell, it's been leading you around for years already, might as well admit it's a power greater then yourself and put it to good use, although you may want to choose a different concept because if you are anything like me the damn thing is nothing but trouble and doesn't always act in my best interests.

If you ask a physicist to explain something in laymans terms they will have a number of 'false starts" then finally explain they use the language they use that we as laymen find incomprehensible because thats the only way to explain it.

Unfortunately or fortunately, the language of recovery in AA is spiritual, which is slippery at best, and arouses instant "brain shut down" at worst. I watch people argue about AA simply because in many cases people don't understand the concept of their OWN concept of God, they see the word God and they lose their F'ing mind because it conjures up someone ELSE'S concept of God.

To me it's simple as hell, see the stars? see everything? see all those galaxies? see birth? see love? the curve of a perfect breast? see a puppy? a kitten? see a mothers love for her child? a sunrise?

Package all that up, call it God, no deity needed, plug it into the steps, work them and you will have a personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism.

Ok, onto Nuts and Bolts.

Here is one method (the one I start with) I have used with sponsees.


I use electricity as a "power greater then yourself" concept, it starts with electricity then "evolves" to include every single thing in The Universe.

First I tell them if you don't believe in a power greater then yourself I'd like you to stick your tongue in that electrical outlet over there, get back to me when you are done to tell me how it went.

Then I use my paramedic training to tell about the heart, how it has electricity in it, how in the absence of electricity the person dies, and how there is also electrical activity in the brain, and if the electrical activity in the Brain stops they either go "brain dead" or will actually die if the damage is sever enough. Without electricity you wouldn't be alive.

Every living thing in the world has electrical activity, there is even electricity in trees and plants (very very small amounts but it's there)

I explain how it fits the greeting "Namaste" which means:

# "I respect divinity within you that is also within me." (Here, "that" refers to divinity, or that which is divine.)
# "The light within me honors the light within you." (in yoga)

and how it fits with all of the interconnectedness and spiritual theories, as in there is divine in all of us, and the "oneness theories" but all animals, trees, everything has electricity in it in some form or fashion but by using a basic principle such as electricity you can use that to build to a Power greater then yourself that is personal to you.

I also bust out with "A new Pair of Glasses" and show many passages that confused me greatly for over a decade about his description of God, and how he states he is not a christian then uses many sayings attributed to Jesus to show many things, but how spirituality can "fit" in with Christianity. (many are pretty anti-christian when they get to me, so by using we agnostics, Glasses, and the electricity analogy by the time they walk away they are open minded and realize they have been displaying the very character defects they claimed not to like in Christianity)

I talk about how it's actually the ego that is trying to kill us, that voice in our head, and we need to learn how to start listening to that voice in our hearts which takes place from working the steps.

I talk about him finding "God" in the last place we ever thought to look, inside our own heart, how we (as a species) go "looking for God" when it's inside of us all the time. I tell the story of the three fish, swimming in the Ocean, and the big fish that swims by and says "Hello boys, nice day, waters great today huh?" one fish looks at another and asks, "what is water" and the three fish spend the rest of their life swimming around the Pacific Ocean, looking for water, in which they live and breathe and have their very existence.

Anyway, yes, I start with Electricity, from there it moves to spiritual principals, I show that reliance on a deity made in a human image need not concern them, but how once they have their own concept of God, they can plug that value into anywhere the word God is written (in the big book) and have it work.

For the purposes of this discussion, and for the program, I refer to everything that is "not me" as "God", and what I mean by "not me" I mean the little voice in my head, my Ego, like if I cut myself, what heals the cut, the little voice in my head doesn't heal that cut, it's a power greater then myself that I don't wholly understand, so it's "not me", ergo it's "God". For me humility means being "right sized" knowing where I end and "God" begins, that's easy, the little voice in my head has absolutely no power except the power I give it, so all other "power" is "God". (this is just for the sake of this discussion you understand, it all sounds very religious, but it's not, still no deity involved)

So turning my life and will over to everything but the little voice in my head is easy. Keeping it that way is hard. That little voice in my head is just not very powerful, frequently wrong, and it also happens to be where my alcoholism is seated, so I turn my will and my life over to everything that is NOT that voice in my head, which for the purposes of this discussion and AA I call "God".

an example or colloquialism about it would be "I am in charge of flinging sh1t against the wall, but I am not in charge of what sticks" ergo, I am not in charge of adhesion, so what is in "charge of adhesion", would not be the little voice in my head or "not me", so that would be "God".

I am in charge of the effort and the footwork, but not the results.

The little voice in my head talks big but the truth of the matter is it has f*ck-all to do with what actually takes place in the world. I mean it has gotten me laid a few times, but it's also gotten me tossed in the can, it's "decision making" capabilities are spotty at best (If I actually look at the results of my decisions, not the the thinking if that makes sense) but there I am, thinking about me again, an egomaniac with an inferiority complex thinking I am the piece of sh1t that the world revolves around.

That voice is literally actively trying to get me to drink, it will try every trick it knows, it will try and make me so happy I drink, or it will try to put me in so much pain that taking a drink is a good idea, the little voice in my head is not to be trusted and is actively literally trying to kill me.

So turning my will and life over to the care of anything but the little voice in my head that is actively trying to kill me suddenly makes good sense and is practical. It's also learning how to live in "the now" and not that fantasy world we call 'reality'. Anything that takes me away from that part of my mind and thinking that little voice in my head that says it knows best but on a second look is actively trying to kill me is turning my will and my life over.

Taoism, as I understand it, is pretty simple and a good summation is this:

Because it IS a "spiritual program" with a "spiritual solution" I do find myself frequently using the word God, but I just mean everything that is "not me" or not the little voice in my head, to me the word God is an "integer" who's value is "X" if that makes sense.

I didn't "change" anything or even do any "broadening" of the program, I am quite literally following Bill's instructions when he says "why don't you choose your own concept of God"

Bill was extremely clear and emphatic about everything I explained, I only reword it, I am not re-inventing the wheel here, just putting it in language I understand.

It's just the language used is so ...loaded.....no pun intended

After some years my math "equation" looks more like this

(Everything + Everything that is + Everything that ever was + Everything that ever will be) - ( The little voice in my head that tells me what to do and lies to me all the time) = X

For the purposes of AA

God = X

Plug the value of X into whenever I see the word God in the Big Book or on the wall or whenever I hear the word in a meeting and I'm golden, if *you need a "God" with a willy, or a beard, or a wrathful God or whatever floats your boat, more power to you, I don't need to make my value of X anthropomorphic personally, nor am I threatened by anyone's use of the word any more quite frankly, I just plug my own value in it when I hear or read it.

It's as simple as "Sh1t Happens" and if you are downhill from it you get a mouthful and if you sit in it you get cranky, because it's almost always your own, and I notice after I had been sober for awhile and started feeling better about myself I didn't have to take anyone else's, nor for the most part did people want to give me nearly as much quite frankly for some strange reason.

*you = people in meetings

I have found these to be effective building blocks that have led many even claiming to be atheist/agnostics to reach step 12

I am an Atheist/Agnostic that has a God that is personal to him Today.

Please feel free to ask any questions, I don't mean to offend anyone, just tell my experience with getting through the twelve steps.

 

Great post Andrew; I feel similarly in many ways. I went to university for mathematics and physics and so I can certainly relate to your use of analogy. I laughed out loud at: "If you ask a physicist to explain something in laymans terms they will have a number of 'false starts"..." as I do this all the time when talking to my wife. Too, I don't know if you saw it but I described my higher power by referencing the Tao recently - but more specifically elsewhere I said that my hp is simply whatever is left after 'me' is removed. i.e ego. Very similar belief systems it seems.

I do find spiritual truths in most all religious texts, unfortunately conversations on these have the appearance of communication but seem to be a spiritual conversation vs a religious conversation and the deeper one goes the more apparent that becomes...and for me, what's the point of superficiality? Go deep or go home... to paraphrase another saying, not suggesting anyone should go home of course.

I think the problem I was having (and to some degree still has although it is lessening) is this: Forgiveness, patience and tolerance are tools of the powerful. The more powerless I feel, the more power I try to take and wield - seeking to punish, demanding fairness and retribution. Religion, psychotherapy, the twelve steps, etc., allow people to access or feel power - in some cases such as religion, unlimited power. When one doesn't feel like a powerless victim, forgiveness is a gift you are able to give yourself, patience is easy and tolerance seems obvious.

A balanced 'me' knows how to translate 'pray about it' or ask 'God for help' while an unbalanced me, harbouring deep resentments and anger needs to be reminded of how to do so. Thanks for that. :)