Angel, ... ... ... As I was reading your post above, I got an email 'beep' ... after finishing your post, I when to check my email ... this is what I found, just minute ago, no lie ... :
Father John Powell, a professor at Loyola University in Chicago, writes about a student in his Theology of Faith class named Tommy:
Some twelve years ago, I stood watching my university students file into the classroom for our first session in the Theology of Faith. That was the day I first saw Tommy. He was combing his long flaxen hair, which hung six inches below his shoulders.
It was the first time I had ever seen a boy with hair that long. I guess it was just coming into fashion then. I know in my mind that it isn't what's on your head but what's in it that counts; but on that day. I was unprepared and my emotions flipped.
I immediately filed Tommy under "S" for strange... Very strange.
Tommy turned out to be the "atheist in residence" in my Theology of Faith course.
He constantly objected to, smirked at, or whined about the possibility of an unconditionally loving Father/God. We lived with each other in relative peace for one semester, although I admit he was for me at times a serious pain in the back pew.
When he came up at the end of the course to turn in his final exam, he asked in a cynical tone, "Do you think I'll ever find God?" I decided instantly on a little shock therapy. "No!" I said very emphatically. "Why not," he responded, "I thought that was the product you were pushing."
I let him get five steps from the classroom door and then I called out, "Tommy! I don't think you'll ever find Him, but I am absolutely certain that He will find you!" He shrugged a little and left my class and my life.
I felt slightly disappointed at the thought that he had missed my clever line -- He will find you! At least I thought it was clever.
Later I heard that Tommy had graduated, and I was duly grateful.
Then a sad report came. I heard that Tommy had terminal cancer.
Before I could search him out, he came to see me.
When he walked into my office, his body was very badly wasted and the long hair had all fallen out as a result of chemotherapy. But his eyes were bright and his voice was firm, for the first time, I believe.
"Tommy, I've thought about you so often; I hear you are sick," I blurted out.
"Oh, yes, very sick. I have cancer in both lungs. It's a matter of weeks." "Can you talk about it, Tom?" I asked."Sure, what would you like to know?" he replied. "What's it like to be only twenty-four and dying? "Well, it could be worse. "Like what? "Well, like being fifty and having no values or ideals, like being fifty and thinking that booze, seducing women, and making money are the real biggies in life.
I began to look through my mental file cabinet under "S" where I had filed Tommy as strange. (It seems as though everybody I try to reject by classification, God sends back into my life to educate me.)
"But what I really came to see you about," Tom said, "is something you said to me on the last day of class." (He remembered!) He continued, "I asked you if you thought I would ever find God and you said, 'No!' which surprised me. Then you said, 'But He will find you. I thought about that a lot, even though my search for God was hardly intense at that time. (My clever line. He thought about that a lot!) "But when the doctors removed a lump from my groin and told me that it was malignant, that's when I got serious about locating God. And when the malignancy spread into my vital organs, I really began banging bloody fists against the bronze doors of heaven.
But God did not come out. In fact, nothing happened. Did you ever try anything for a long time with great effort and with no success?
You get psychologically glutted, fed up with trying. And then you quit.
"Well, one day I woke up, and instead of throwing a few more futile appeals over that high brick wall to a God who may be or may not be there, I just quit. I decided that I didn't really care about God, about an afterlife, or anything like that. I decided to spend what time I had left doing something more profitable. I thought about you and your class and I remembered something else you had said:
'The essential sadness is to go through life without loving..
But it would be almost equally sad to go through life and leave this world without ever telling those you loved that you had loved them.
"So, I began with the hardest one, my Dad. He was reading the newspaper when I approached him. "Dad." "Yes, what?" he asked without lowering the newspaper. "Dad, I would like to talk with you." "Well, talk. "I mean. It's really important." The newspaper came down three slow inches. "What is it?" "Dad, I love you, I just wanted you to know that." Tom smiled at me and said it with obvious satisfaction, as though he felt a warm and secret joy flowing inside of him. "The newspaper fluttered to the floor. Then my father did two things I could never remember him ever doing before. He cried and he hugged me. We talked all night, even though he had to go to work the next morning."
It felt so good to be close to my father, to see his tears, to feel his hug, to hear him say that he loved me." "It was easier with my mother and little brother. They cried with me, too, and we hugged each other, and started saying real nice things to each other. We shared the things we had been keeping secret for so many years."
"I was only sorry about one thing --- that I had waited so long." "Here I was, just beginning to open up to all the people I had actually been close to..
"Then, one day I turned around and God was there.
"He didn't come to me when I pleaded with Him. I guess I was like an animal trainer holding out a hoop, 'C'mon, jump through. C'mon, I'll give you three days, three weeks."
Apparently God does things in His own way and at His own hour.
"But the important thing is that He was there. He found me! You were right. He found me even after I stopped looking for Him."
"Tommy," I practically gasped, "I think you are saying something very important and much more universal than you realize. To me, at least, you are saying that the surest way to find God is not to make Him a private possession, a problem solver, or an instant consolation in time of need, but rather by opening to love..
You know, the Apostle John said that. He said: 'God is love, and anyone who lives in love is living with God and God is living in him.
"Tom, could I ask you a favor? You know, when I had you in class you were a real pain. But (laughingly) you can make it all up to me now. Would you come into my present Theology of Faith course and tell them what you have just told me? If I told them the same thing it wouldn't be half as effective as if you were to tell it..
"Oooh.. I was ready for you, but I don't know if I'm ready for your class."
"Tom, think about it. If and when you are ready, give me a call."
In a few days Tom called, said he was ready for the class, that he wanted to do that for God and for me.
So we scheduled a date.
However, he never made it. He had another appointment, far more important than the one with me and my class.
Of course, his life was not really ended by his death, only changed.
He made the great step from faith into vision. He found a life far more beautiful than the eye of man has ever seen or the ear of man has ever heard or the mind of man has ever imagined.
Before he died, we talked one last time.
"I'm not going to make it to your class," he said. "I know, Tom." "Will you tell them for me? Will you...tell the whole world for me?" I will, Tom. I'll tell them. I'll do my best."
So, to all of you who have been kind enough to read this simple story about God's love, thank you for listening. And to you, Tommy, somewhere in the sunlit, verdant hills of heaven --- I told them, Tommy, as best I could.
If this story means anything to you, please pass it on to a friend or two.
It is a true story and is not enhanced for publicity purposes.
With thanks, Rev. John Powell, Professor, Loyola University, Chicago
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Thursday 14th of June 2012 01:37:13 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I have opened this thread/topic to be "corrected" after what I wrote in hatrabbit's post. I can FEEL it's not right - but I don't KNOW why exactly... would love some insight please.
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Thanks for everything. Peace and Love on your journey.
It's an interesting thought. Do you need AA in your life? I dunno. That's for you to figure out. I know I need AA in my life. It isn't enough to be dry. I need to be sober.
Little story: Monday night I dropped my kids back at their mother's house. Helped put them to bed and then had a talk to her. We discussed the marriage and agreed that unless something miraculous happened we'd sign the divorce papers in six months (6 months would get us past kids birthdays, wedding anniversary, breakup anniversary, my 2 year sober b/day, Xmas and New Years - in other words all the bumpy times that could be approaching). It was calm, collected and business like.
So I got into the car for the 3hr drive home and about an hour into the drive the enormity of it hit me like a ton of bricks. How dare she! How dare she not beg and plead with me to stay married. How dare she not love me anymore. How dare she not do things exactly as I wanted. (what did I want? I dunno. To say "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." as she cried maybe). Why the hell did I bother getting sober? Why shouldn't I just get good and drunk? I could just throw everything down the toilet and spitefully point at her and tell her it's her fault that I'm destroying myself. Tell her to explain to the kids how she killed their dad. That's what I'd do. Fuck AA and fuck the promises that didn't come true (I thought as I drove home in a car and a license I had now after ten years without, to a job I love after years of patchy or non existent employment, to a bank account that that has money I'm not even sure what I want to do with, after years of living hand to mouth, and to people that love and respect me after all but giving up on me). Fuck it all. I'm done and I'll show her.
But one thought stopped me from stopping at a pub and getting a drink: this too shall pass.
So I didn't drink that night.
The next day I felt odd. Still angry and resentful, but I knew that what I was letting my head do was insane. I didn't want to be insane again. This place had shown me that I didn't have to be. I was still going to self destruct but not Tuesday. I wouldn't drink for that 24 hours and I'd see how I went Wednesday. I didn't reach out though. Too stubborn and too full of spite.
Wednesday I got a phone call from a fella in my group that has never called me before. "Do you want to go to a meeting tonight at ...." No, I thought. Yes, I said.
So there I was. Within a minute or two of walking into the meeting the hornets nest in my head stopped buzzing and sanity returned. A drink became the furthest thing from my mind, and I knew that all I needed to do was to accept and tolerate those things I could not change, and all would be well. And I did. And I was back. Me. The real me. Not that horrible, spiteful, hateful person that I thought I had left in the rehab all those months ago.
So if you can do it without this program I salute you. I wish you all the best. But I can't. Without this program I'm a dead man walking because that evil little disease is sitting there waiting to kill me the moment I let down my guard, and the only thing that can keep it at bay today is the tools this program gives me. I know that more than I know anything right now. I can't do it alone and I can't fight it. It's too strong and too quick for me. I need an angel on my shoulder and AA is that angel.
I hope that helps but even if it didn't and was just a self indulgent ramble then forgive me but know that it helped me a lot to get that out.
Personally, as a new person, I marvel at people with 20 years. The ones who come in and say they stayed sober for a long time on their own - makes me wonder if I could do that too. It makes me wonder if I do in fact need AA in my life. My own father went from drinking very very alcoholic for 20 or more years, to having 3 or 4 about 10 yrs ago, to 2 MGD 64's a night for the last 5ish.
He couldn't stop drinking to save his marriage... when he was going to lose his kids. He couldn't stop drinking when he had cancer. Years ago, he used to let me get beer for him standing on a stool to reach the tapper on the kegerator in our basement. He used to let me make necklaces out of beer caps... after he had 12 that night, I had enough for a nice one. He would let me drink a sip or 3, out of each beer I brought him. People talk about starting drinking early in life... I WAS TWO! He never lost a job, and is actually monetarily very well to do. Still, he is a miserable, drinking, dry drunk... if you can imagine!
So he is the epitome of what is suppose to be nearly impossible according to the AAer's. I watch it every day of my life. I also have him telling me I'm not an alcoholic because (according to him) he's seen me have just a couple beers... but that is beside the point I'm trying to make.
The point is, my own father's example, could actually kill me. If he quit drinking on his own, he would try and say "see, you can do this too". He'll have a beer with lunch, in front of me, almost to say "here... this is how you do it".
If I believed I could do it alone, and started drinking again, I'd die.
Maybe I'm not suppose to say or think any of this. I don't know - I'm still new like I said. To worry about you, or my Dad, is probably not what I'm suppose to be doing today. I do know AA is working because I'm influential. You DO have an influence on me hatrabbit... think about your motives, and the good of everyone please.
Congratulations on 20 yrs alcohol free... I don't know your story - and I'm jumping to conclusions here, so please do share!!! I for one would love to hear how you did it!
Hi Tasha! I assume this was what you were talking about and so I copied and pasted it here. I kind of wanted to talk about it too.
I celebrated twenty years last month myself and found that I could relate to a lot of what hatrabbit had to say. When I came into the program I attended a ridiculous amount of meetings, averaging about four a day for the first ninety days and at least one a day for the first year. It was what I needed to do to stay sober so in that light it wasn't ridiculous at all. I attended meetings regularly for the first three years or so and then stopped. It is only recently, due to court mandated meeting attendance, that I have begun to go again. I should probably explain that...
My wife (it is our anniversary today!) went to prison in 1988. She was paroled six months ago. As part of her parole requirements, she must attend twelve step meetings. In 1988 she was fifteen years old and so, never got her drivers license. Since we live very rural with the closest meeting over an hour away, I have been her only ride to a meeting and so, I've been attending meetings again for the last six months with her. I might also point out that after twenty-four years of not being able to go anywhere with her, I would go anywhere and do anything with her just to be with her...so it certainly doesn't bother me to go. Actually, prior to her release, we weren't sure she would be able to come home and thought we might have to parole to California and so I checked out meetings in California for about three months which is just mentioned to clear up any confusion over a past post of mine which said that meetings are different up here than where I came from - esp. if I've only been back for six months...so in reality, I've been back for nine months. Anywho... Many of the threads I've started have explored, in one way or another, the reasons that I stopped going in the first place.
Here's the long and the short of it in my opinion: First, I couldn't have gotten and stayed sober without the meetings in the beginning. The steps were, for me, invaluable although, as an atheist, I had to jump through so many hoops to modify them so that they maintained their spirit and yet worked for me. As the program points out, our continued sobriety is conditional based upon our spiritual condition. It doesn't say that it is conditional contingent upon our continued meeting attendance. I could not have maintained my spiritual condition had I not saturated myself with meetings and the steps (modified as they may have been) for those first few years. Ultimately, I took the program with me when I left.
I can't imagine why most people who are alcoholic would want to quit going to meetings unless it was to set themselves up for that first drink. There are exceptions. While there are certainly arguments on the subject and I don't want to start one, despite proclamations to the contrary, AA is heavy on the religion in my opinion. I can't imagine why that would bother someone with a Judeo-Christian or even a theistic background, but it's a bit of a stretch for an atheist like me. I do not, however, do it alone. I may not spend an hour of my day in a meeting, but I meditate an hour a day. My concept of a higher power is what the Taoists call the 'true self' and I spend an hour a day in meditation reaching out to that part of myself. I do believe that if I tried to do it alone, I too would fail.
Thanks for sharing that. I actually get a fair number of such e-mails, usually from members of my home group - though I had not seen this one before. Perhaps I'll send it to them. Though I do not relate to the whole God-aspect of the post, few could not be touched by the young mans fervent search and journey or his conversation with his father; I know I was. There is no message in what I am about to share...I just happened to be reading it again (it is one of my favorite articles from the grapevine) and it is from Bill Wilson circa 1961 called the Dilemma of no Faith. This is an excerpt:
Many years ago a so-called "unbeliever" brought me to see this very clearly. He was an M.D. and a fine one. I met him and his wife Mary at the home of a friend in a midwestern city. It was purely a social evening. Our fellowship of alcoholics was my sole topic and I pretty much monopolized the conversation. Nevertheless, the doctor and his lady seemed truly interested and he asked many questions. But one of them made me suspect that he was an agnostic, or maybe an atheist.
This promptly triggered me, and I set out to convert him, then and there. Deadly serious, I actually bragged about my spectacular spiritual experience of the year before. The doctor mildly wondered if that experience might not be something other than I thought it was. This hit me hard, and I was downright rude. There had been no real provocation; the doctor was uniformly courteous, good humored and even respectful. Not a little wistfully, he said he often wished he had a firm faith, too. But plainly enough, I had convinced him of nothing.
Three years later I revisited my midwestern friend. Mary, the doctor's wife, came by for a call and I learned that he had died the week before. Much affected, she began to speak of him.
His was a noted Boston family, and he'd been Harvard educated. A brilliant student, he might have gone on to fame in his profession. He could have enjoyed a wealthy practice and a social life among old friends. Instead, he had insisted on being a company doctor in what was a strife-torn industrial town. When Mary had sometimes asked why they didn't go back to Boston, he would take her hand and say, "Maybe you are right, but I can't bring myself to leave. I think the people at the company really need me."
Mary then recalled that she had never known her husband to complain seriously about anything, or to criticize anyone bitterly. Though he appeared to be perfectly well, the doctor had slowed down in his last five years. When Mary prodded him to go out evenings, or tried to get him to the office on time, he always came up with a plausible and good-natured excuse. Not until his sudden last illness did she know that all this while he had carried about a heart condition that could have done him in at any moment. Except for a single doctor on his own staff, no one had an inkling. When she reproached him about this, he simply said, "Well, I could see no good in causing people to worry about me - especially you, my dear."
This was the story of a man of great spiritual worth. The hallmarks were plain to be seen: humor and patience, gentleness and courage, humility and dedication, unselfishness and love - a demonstration I might never come near to making myself. This was the man I had chided and patronized. This was the "unbeliever" I had presumed to instruct!
What I enjoy most aboutthis particular attitude is that Bill was able to recognize that we with no faith may still have a grasp on spirituality and spiritual ideals. It is that which I find hopeful as I continue to go to meetings, that I may find those who can appreciate and accept me for me - without trying to fix that which they perceive to be broken.
Thanks Angel, ... Interesting article for sure ...
For sure we each have our own journeys ... Will we end up in the same place ??? ... Not for me to decide ... I'm just trying to enjoy the ride ... ... ... Sober, that is ... LOL
Take Care, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I don't see the problem Tasha. Maybe it was your day to vent, that's all. My father wasn't an alcoholic per say, but he did love his wine on occasion. So I know how hard it must feel to be in that situation. I don't think less of anyone because of their opinions, and either should hatrabbit's. Yes, she's been sober 20 years and has done so without the assistance of A.A, but that shouldn't negate the good A.A. does. Some of my friends have been sober for that long or more and attend meetings maybe once or twice a month, just like hatrabbit. But that's just them. Yes, that's part of a growing problem -which I feel is unfortunate, but again it's just a small part of a much bigger picture. A.A. will still function and just like hatrabbit, some people will fall away -even though she sounds interested again, but that's not the A.A. model I've come to appreciate. So I wouldn't get too caught up with the whole 'she does he does' thing, alright. My suggestion dear, keep doing what you're doing, and maybe someone else will see the difference in us, kind of like you Tasha. We have, and so have you. Onward...
-- Edited by Mr_David on Friday 15th of June 2012 11:18:22 PM
I was a meeting few years ago, fairly large group. Most of the members have 30 + years sobriety so there's a lot of wisdom in that room. This particular night was a birthday night and a lady was celebrating 16 years. I'm going on 15 and I still average about 4 meetings a week, but for the life of me I couldn't place the face to the name so I started asking some of the members of the group who she was. Oddly enough, nobody seemed to know. The reason is because she only went to one meeting a year. Her birthday meeting. So she could pick up her cake and medallion and tell us all how grateful she was that Alcoholics Anonymous had saved her life.
We spoke after the meeting. She doesn't have a sponsor and she doesn't sponsor anyone herself. She isn't doing any service work. She came to a few AA meetings, realized she couldn't drink safely, stopped drinking and as far as she was concerned that's all there is to that. She told me she only picks up her medallion to show others how well the program works.
I hear stuff like this and I just shake my head. I'm not sure what program she was referring to but its not the one I'm in.
Bill's Story page 14 explains very simply what will be required of me to get sober and remain sober. "My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead."
Those are pretty strong words....absolute necessity.....imperative....they don't sound like suggestions that I can take or leave. And there are numerous other references in the book to the necessity of working with others. But how can I work with others, carry the message to others, if I don't go to meetings. I haven't seen any newcomers walk in front of my couch lately. True, there is no pre-determined number of meetings we should attend. Nowhere in the book does it say you have to go to a meeting a day for the rest of your life. There is, however, a clue in Bill's Story. "We meet frequently so that newcomers may find the fellowship they seek." I don't know, maybe it's just me but I don't think frequently means once in a year.
So I go to as many meetings as I can manage. And I try to help out whenever I can. I also have a full time job, and family, and hobbies just like anyone else so obviously I'm not going every day anymore.
But, look around you. Here we are, most of us in here have a lot of time in and what are we doing with it. We're giving back what was freely given to us. We're showing our gratitude by working with others. It's a program of action. If I do not take the action, I do not get the results. Now, I'm talking about real alcoholics here, not some guy or gal who drank a bottle of champagne, starts talking dirty, pukes on the ride home and says holy crap I can't live this way anymore. I'm referring to type 3 drinkers. Okay I'm talking too much again. Tasha, my dear you always have something good to say.
By the way, that lady, she drank again. And she won't be coming back this time. Sadly enough, she taught me a valuable lesson. The second half of that quote from Bill's Story says "If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us, it is just like that."
So whenever I hear someone say "well this is how I work my program," I just say, "No problem and when it stops working, come try ours."
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Not all my days are priceless, but none of my days are worthless, anymore.
Thanks for all your postings above interesting reading. I have not read the posting it is relating too sorry I have been off line but just wanted to add my '' worth ''..
My primary purpose is to stay sober and to help another alcoholic achieve sobriety.
I am responsible, when anyone anywhere reaches out for help I want the hand of AA always to be there.
You bet I am truly grateful for this today and for those who have not read my share please look it up on the '' share postings here ''
Today I give back to AA the love I have received. I could not do this '' sitting at home''
Without the love,guidance and higher power in my life I would die. I have an illness that '' wants me dead '' Today I want to live and today I want to help other too. I understand that its my life and for the rest of my living days :}
YOU BET I AM GRATEFUL :} AND THANK YOU ALL TOO. :}
