Ha! Ruhig, .... You are trying to pry open a 'big' can of 'knowledge and understanding' here aren't you ??? ...
With the environment we find ourselves in today, I feel we are going to be limited in our understanding of the universe AND the part we play in it ... There have been those in the past, so obsessed in gaining a 'higher plane of knowledge', that they would totally isolate themselves (go to mountaintops, deserts, middle of the ocean, or even isolate a single Tree to sit under for days on end, nearly starving themselves to death) to reach a hallucinatory state of mind and then interpret that as a connection to the universe that only they had been able to achieve ... and then come out to profess that if you were to seek the same kind of 'soul searching', you too could be 'enlightened' ... I ain't too sure that's the way to go ... maybe it works for some!!! ...
For me? ... I have learned that I can be a part of my environment without the isolation nor the deep contemplation of universal things, and still be an active spirit among spirits ... It has come to my realization that we are all just spirits inhabiting a body, not of our choosing, but one of which was given to us by God, the supreme being, and by His grace, we all have the door of knowledge available to us if we but seek His will for us ... and in so doing, the eyes we have begin to understand and see that we are simple spirits living in a temporary material world or setting ... perhaps this is a test to see where our spirits belong in the next journey we find ourselves on ... I don't know! ...
So how can you state that "there are dimensions of your being and a potential for realization and consciousness that are not included in your concept of yourself" ... how do you know exactly what my concept of me is and whether or not it is correct and true or not??? ... Daily, I seek guidance and knowledge of God's will for me and to be granted the desire and power to carry that out ... My spirit has been changed is all I can tell you for sure ... and I have a much different view of God and His powers because I sense and feel them in the meetings where daily, I see miracles happening ... AND yes, these once 'hopeless drunks' are showing me their belief in God has given them the power to not drink ... I wouldn't have believed it if I haven't been seeing this, with my own eyes, for a long time now ...
That's my opinion and it oughta' be yours ... LOL
God Bless, Pappy
P.S. Great topic by the way!!!
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Monday 4th of June 2012 03:02:59 PM
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
IDK python. I read it from the perspective of a neophyte. I hate me, loath myself infinitely. To me, all this says is that I have the potential to be someone I don't hate. When I read it, I thought "this is my definition of hope". To me, this says "I am your high power. I can see the potential in you. But you need to connect And develop your potential.
When it says that there is part of me I don't/can't take into consideration, that just means I'm only looking at the bad stuff in me. When it says there are dimentions I don't know about, that just means I haven't had a spiritual awakening yet. But when it says I can live in the breadth of these dimentions, it means I have the power to keep open minded, and that I am capable of being so much more than who I think I am right now.
[p.s.: 1. Starving the body to feed the soul goes against the balance that is taught by the program. I'm not supporting annorexia as a way of spiritual enlightenment. 2. Hallucinations don't necessarily mean spiritual contact. Hallucinagenic drugs fake a spiritual experience. Downers fake a sense of serenity. Period. End of that story. Chemically induced euphoria is a sham. Nuff said]
-- Edited by Ruhig on Monday 4th of June 2012 11:35:57 AM
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
Very Well put Ruhig ... ... ... hummmmm ... ... ...
The way I feel ... (and I realize we both have differing concepts of 'higher power') ... is that 'in and of myself' I AM NOTHING ... I came to believe that my search for God, or something I could believe in, was futile ... It wasn't until I learned the 'meaning' of what was meant to become 'poor in spirit' that I found something to grow with ... the following is something I came across that changed my thinking ... see if it carries any meaning for you ... :
To be 'poor in spirit' does not mean what is sometimes thought of as 'poor spirited' ... To be 'poor in spirit' means to have emptied yourself of all desire to exercise self-will, and, what is just as important, to have renounced all preconceived opinions in the wholehearted search for God ... It means to be willing to set aside your present habits of thought, your present views and prejudices, your present way of life if necessary; to get rid of, in fact, anything and everything that can stand in the way of your finding God. .
The 'poor in spirit' suffer from none of the pitfalls of 'pride of money', 'intellectual learning', 'self accomplishments', 'cocksuredness', 'social prestige', 'political or religious' standing, etc.; because they never had any of these or because they have risen above them on the tide of spiritual understanding ... (NOTE: To have great wealth in material things is neither good nor bad, but to have love for these things is ... Especially if it keeps you from the 'Love of God' as a priority in your life!!!)
The 'poor in spirit' have got rid of the love of money and property, of fear of public opinion, and of the disapproval of friends and family ... they are no longer over-awed by human authority ... they are no longer cocksure in their own opinions ... They have come to see that their most cherished beliefs may have been and probably were mistaken, and that their ideas and views of life may be false and in need of recasting ... They are ready to start again at the very beginning and learn life anew ...
There ya go ... ... well, I really need to get my walk in for today ... it just stopped raining and the radar shows at least an hour break in the rain ... so bye for now ...
Love Ya and God Bless, Pappy
P.S. I looked eveywhere for a God of my understanding ... I gave up ... then I came to practice this program of AA and found God in every living thing ... yep God was inside of me ... go figure ... He was there all the time ... I just didn't see it ... til I started seeing Him in all those people at the meetings ... BAM! ... there He was ... and just like that I knew that I'd found something very, very, special ... AND that I would never ever have to take a drink again as long as I lived, unless I, myself, insisted upon it!!!
-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Monday 4th of June 2012 01:42:23 PM
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
"there are dimentions of your being and a potential for realization and consciousness that are not included in your concept of yourself. Your life is much deeper and broader than you concieve it to be here. What you are living is but a fractional inkling of what is really within you, what gives you life, breadth and depth. BUT YOU CAN LIVE IN TERMS OF THAT DEPTH." ...., ..., ..., I hope this hits home for someone.
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
I did not weigh in on your recent post entitled 'Your Perspective?" but this seems to be a clear progression from that one and so...
I hate me, loath myself infinitely. To me, all this says is that I have the potential to be someone I don't hate. When I read it, I thought "this is my definition of hope".
I certainly have been able to identify with this. Fortunately, we are able, as members of AA, to choose a Higher Power of our understanding. As I mentioned above, it is nice to see a reference to my higher power here in your post. I am greater than I perceive myself to be. In your last post you mentioned,
Everything we know is within the terminology of the concepts of being and not being...
It is my experience that 'I' neither exists nor doesn't exist. What we perceive as 'I' is simply illusion. What is left is my higher power. Early in recovery while sitting in meditation I experienced a persistant itch that, as I failed to scratch it, became predictably worse. Pushing myself deeper into meditation it seemed removed, like it was something seperate from me. Later, in reflection I likened it to the rear view mirror of a car which had broken off and become seperate from the car - though duck tape would hold it on if I wished. Then I asked myself, "With the rear view mirror gone, was it still a car?"
Of course. What if I lost a leg? Would I still be me? Yes. How about an arm? Yes, again. What if I lost my mind - a vegetable who couldn't form a thought? Yes, that too. Which brought me to the conclusion that I am not my body - nor am I my thoughts or mind. When I'm telling my mind to quiet and it's racing all over the place - who is the 'I' telling the mind to quiet?
My thoughts defined me and created my life. I hated the 'me' my thoughts defined 'me' and the life that those thoughts created. I changed my mind and my life changed.
You are going to run into some opposition with your current line of thinking but you remain free to do so and it has been my experience that the path you appear to be considering is worth it.
Yes. Same book. And I have only come to realize my step one by identifying my feelings and thought patterns with yours (the group). "It is my experience that 'I' neither exists nor doesn't exist. What we perceive as 'I' is simply illusion. What is left is my higher power. Early in recovery while sitting in meditation I experienced a persistant itch that, as I failed to scratch it, became predictably worse. Pushing myself deeper into meditation it seemed removed, like it was something seperate from me. Later, in reflection I likened it to the rear view mirror of a car which had broken off and become seperate from the car - though duck tape would hold it on if I wished. Then I asked myself, "With the rear view mirror gone, was it still a car?"
Of course. What if I lost a leg? Would I still be me? Yes. How about an arm? Yes, again. What if I lost my mind - a vegetable who couldn't form a thought? Yes, that too. Which brought me to the conclusion that I am not my body - nor am I my thoughts or mind. When I'm telling my mind to quiet and it's racing all over the place - who is the 'I' telling the mind to quiet? " ...,...,..., when you say this, did you mean something like "without my physical being, am I still? And that you answered yes because without your physical being what you have left over is your hp?" ..,..,..,..,.., I don't understand your reference to opposition in line of thinking, but when I do, I'll come back to you :) I'm new to this side of things, but I do know that if I'm going to improve myself, that I can only do this thru the steps. (so grateful they put it in a list, a simple program for complicated people)
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
... and then come out to profess that if you were to seek this same insanity, you too could be 'enlightened' ...
Pappy,
In my limited time here you seem to me, to be one of the most helpful members here. I am grateful for your presence and contributions here. So please believe me when I say that this is not an attack in any way.
I understand that we have different concepts of a higher power and am grateful that AA is all inclusive in this way. I wanted to ask if you realized that your description of the Buddha's journey might be more 'tearing apart' than 'bringing us together'.
I do not see a difference between a Christian's perspective of the Buddha's journey as "...if you were to seek this same insanity, you too could be 'enlightened'." and the perspective from someone of a different belief system suggesting, "...if you were to seek some invisible Santa Clause in the sky, you too could be 'saved'."
I may be wrong, but I don't believe that you meant it quite as offensively as some might take it. For the record, I am not one who was offended - nor do I share the scathing perspective I offered to illustrate how I think yours might be perceived. Just sharing how it came across to me.
...,...,..., when you say this, did you mean something like "without my physical being, am I still? And that you answered yes because without your physical being what you have left over is your hp?"
Well, it's sort of like this: Without my physical body (and mind for that matter) all that remains is the 'True self'. It is my true self that I would call my higher power. This is an oversimplification but basically - yes, without my physical body or the thoughts, prejudices, issues, dysfunction, etc., that have developed over a lifetime - all that is left is my hp.
Since my hp is already there, hidden from view by a noisy mind and the physical remains of an alcoholic and drug infested lifestyle - I need not get rid of my body or my mind to access my hp. My hp remains where it has always been and if I quiet and discipline the mind and ego, I can hear it.
..,..,..,..,.., I don't understand your reference to opposition in line of thinking, but when I do, I'll come back to you :) I'm new to this side of things, but I do know that if I'm going to improve myself, that I can only do this thru the steps. (so grateful they put it in a list, a simple program for complicated people)
The steps are, in my experience, the only way to go. Can I recommend a book that I think, based on your recent posts, you may enjoy?
It's a storybook as opposed to a drier 'how-to' book. The good news is that if you enjoy it, there are two more books that follow. In addition, it has been adapted into a movie by a similar name, 'Peaceful Warrior' starring Nick Nolte and Amy Smart. Though as in most cases, the book is much better. :)
When given the option-- one should always read the book. Just like I read the shack. (I only came to the "book first" conclusion when my mother told me to read angelas ashes. It's the book my mother reffers to when she speaks of gratitude). Thanks for the suggestion.
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sober: showing no excessive or extreme qualities of fancy, emotion, or prejudice
Thank you for your kind words above ... ... Yep, my fingers got ahead of my brain there for sure ... I'm going to punish them later ... I need to be more 'sensitive' than 'insensitive' for sure ... I changed it up some but still have to admit I learned some things from Buddha ... The biggest thing I came away with is that, like Buddha, I had to almost DIE ... ... before I could see that I needed guidance and 'be open' to the spiritual help I needed ... But of course it's what we call hitting 'bottom' ... then there's NO where else to go but up, OR death ...
Thanks, Pappy
__________________
'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
