AA Traditions

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

AA Traditions

nezyb · Senior Member

Just to clarify, this is an AA meeting hall, where multiple meetings a day take place. There are 35 meetings a week held here. Many of the people who attend the meetings have become sober here, it is known in our area as a "newcomers" hall. Many of the people have also chosen to take their recovery journey to facebook, and apparently discuss issues pertaining to their sobriety and ones such as this one there. I do not participate in the facebook thing, and am not sure how it is being done and/or how anonimity is being protected (or not). I have been attending meetings mainly here, as it is where I got sober, and I where I am most comfortable. Perhaps God is trying to tell me I need to explore other meetings in my area, whether I am comfortable or not. Thanks

-- Edited by nezyb on Saturday 11th of February 2012 10:28:49 PM

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

What you're referring too kelley has amazing similarities to the Washingtonian movement from the mid 19th century. They utilized the same technique as "AA", with some amazing results as well. They had amassed a great following with numbers exceeding 600,000 at one time. It didn't last, though. The numbers quickly diminished after years of success, and controversy was the primary cause behind it all. They steered away from their primary purpose, and allowed issues like prohibition ruin their cause. It wasn't until 1935 when "AA" was born that this cause was taken up again. Bill W. and Doctor Bob united our brethren under a primary purpose of helping alcoholics, not disowning them. It was through these gates that we alcoholics finally saw the light, and I hope others who still question "AA's" attended purpose read the third tradition in its entirety before banishing anyone, ever again. These people on facebook create controversy in the same manner as the Washingtonians did in grievance forums of their era. They rather debate the topics of the day than carry the message of "AA". And that's how the Washingtonian movement failed. I think it's time to carry the torch of "AA", instead of bickering over mundane issues. I hope they finally do, because God knows we need their support.

~God bless~

-- Edited by Mr_David on Sunday 12th of February 2012 02:47:31 AM

nezyb · Senior Member

confuse I am very confused and a bit sad right now about something that is occuring in my home group and was hoping to get a little input from folks here.

There is a male member who has been coming in & out of the hall I go to for the past year, about the same amount of time I have been going there. He identifies himself as an alcoholic. He has displayed threatening and aggressive behavior towards both male and female members of the group at times. At times he is as docile as a lamb.

His last outburst was a couple of weeks ago, when he perceived he was being threatened by a male member of the group who is bigger than he is, a member who of his own admission, has a violent past himself. At that time an exacto knife was displayed.

So our group called an emergency group conscience and the result was a unanimous vote of the people who were there to ban this person from our group/meeting place. Problem with that is that the emergency meeting was essentially announced on facebook, and only once during an actual meeting. Many of us knew nothing about it.

Then the ban was enforced not by the law, but by members of the group, who informed this person he was no longer allowed in the hall and physically blocked his entrance. The result has been that this person has escalated his behavior and is reportedly stalking some members, and has threatened the group as a whole. Worst of all, a good deal of it seems to be playing out on facebook. This drama has divided our group, and seems to have taken priority for some over sobriety.

So, our regular group conscience was today, and I attended, hoping to gain a better understanding of the situation. I had to leave, after admitting to all that I was confused. After sitting in a meeting of about 45 people and listening to some of them call this person an idiot and psychotic, and hearing someone say that all members of the group should agree that this person is crazy and banning him is the right thing to do and just get over it and move on, I had to leave.

I have been studying the 12 & 12, reading the traditions and hoping to gain some insight. I am praying for my Higher Power to help me understand. And yes, I know I need to talk to my sponsor. I understand that a person can not be allowed to threaten others and cause them to fear for their safety, but am confused about how it is being dealt with. Some of the people threatened have called police, and state that it has been ineffective. If I ever feel threatened in a meeting, I will ask for help, leave, and/or call the police. Folks are talking about obtaining a restraining order for by the group to allow that an arrest can be made.

Some of our group believes that this man is one of us who is sicker than others, and should be allowed back in this hall. There are many other meetings and meeting places available in our area, and others say that is where he should go.

Sorry for the long post, but this is weighing heavy on my heart right now. Thanks for reading. Peace.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

One member cannot be more important the safety of the group or any other newcomers. Sounds like this is a borderline issue. Also, if this is an "AA Club" and the "Club" banned him, it's Not an AA issue, it's an "outside issue", as an AA club is not AA. It's a place where AA groups meet.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Mr_David wrote:
If someone doesn't have the respect to act appropriately in a meeting, then someone needs to pull that person aside and instruct them on the importance of respect. If they still don't get it, then it's in the groups description to remove the offending party from the meeting itself but not forever. They still have the right to attend meetings, regardless. If it still triggers more animosity, then you have to instruct that person again on respecting the group conscience. If he refuses and still becomes belligerent, then other methods of persuasion might be in order. It's only my take on it, though. I hope it helps.

I think David has the right idea. Sounds like this person has some severe issues, most the time it involves wanting attention of some sort, negative attention is better than no attention, just like the kid who used to act-out in grade school.

I don't think there is any standard AA protocal for this type of issue, but I have been through a number of situations involving disruptive behavor in groups. Here is my experience:

Judging and discussing the behavor of one person at a group meeting always seems to make the problem worse and takes away from the primary purpose. My homegroup make this mistake once and it was a really negative thing for all involved and just escalated the issue and it started tearing apart the group.

Best pratice from my experience is to have a couple/few respected men from the group take the person out for coffee etc. Don't point blame, just share that they are valued as a AA member, we all go to meetings for the same reasons and we want to avoid disturbing out primary purpose. Mention that you are there if he needs help, and you want him to be part of the solution. This usually works.

I see you are a lady, so the best thing you could do is bring this suggestion up to one or two of the more respected men in the group. You might also see what your local AA cental office has to say regarding the matter. I will PM you with the contact info for the lady at our local cental office, she has a lot of experience in these kinds of matters.

As far as leaving the group, your personal soberity must come first. If you don't feel as if it is in jeopardy stay at your group, be of service and help work through the solution.

Our group had a situation about a year ago where the lady who was out group seceratary (had about 20 yrs sober), called me and said she had a situation where she was taking her meds in a inproper manner and needed to start a new sober date. She wanted to bring it up at the group meeting and have vote/discussion about whether she should keep her group postion.

After some thought I decided to call our cental office, the lady at central office informed me that in cases like that, the decision to keep her position was between her and her sponsor, it was not a group decision. She still tried to bring it up for discussion at the group meeting and we refused to talk about it. Not our decision.... she picked up her pen and tablet and began taking notes for the rest of the meeting!

I was especially proud to be a member of our group that day.

Hope this can help.

John · Admin

Okay, here is my two cents on this issue. Take what you like and leave the rest. If what I share here cannot be matched against our AA literature, its simply my message, not the message.

First, in 22 years, I have seen very similar situations that put the group in a position to do something about an individual for the common good of the whole. Yet, not one time have I seen it result in an "informed" group determining that banning someone who is an admitted alcoholic, who has expressed a desire to stop drinking being the solution. First, doing so flys in the face of Tradition 4. If we are to ban or kick an alcoholic out of our group, what other group are we inflicting our problem member on? "No, we are not kicking him/her out of AA, but out of our group"... is lame. Instead of dealing with our own problem member, in a effective way that is a demonstration of love and tolerance, we are avoiding a real solution, but instead inflicting another area group with our problem, so it becomes theirs.

Like someone else here mentioned, I have seen the most disruptive, belligerent, rude, disrespectful members of AA turned around by a unified demonstration of LOVE, by a few elder statemen of the group bringing the member closer in, opposed to the adverse effect of escalating the situation by keeping them out. I have personally witnessed a very hardened person, who the group developed what I will call a "bashing committee" against, softened by a hot cup of coffee, away from the group, at a resturant after a meeting with a handful of members who truly had the sick and suffering alcoholics best interest at heart.

When I first entered AA, I saw a sign outside the meeting room that said.."Some of the worlds sickest people enter through this door". On the other side of the door, inside the room was another sign that read.."And no one here thinks the other sign applies to them".

We all got here ill, (with a history of "mental blank spots", "peculiar mental twist", and "emotionally unstable" per the Big Book) and inspite of it were allowed to stay simply because we met the only requirement for membership... and as a result, we learned, healed and recovered. No where does the Big Book or 12x12 state that we are to carry our message to the "healthy alcoholic". We are here for the sick and suffering.

Our AA declaration of Responsibility states;

I am Responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible.

Note there are absolutely no prerequsites that are outlined in this statement. "Anyone, anywhere..."

When a group holds a meeting and it allows the bashing of one of its members, with name calling, (idiot, psycho, crazy...") this indicates to me that the group is sick and as a by product is apt to make some very sick decisions, to validate their own illness as being healthier than the person that becomes the target of their mental, emotional and spiritual vomit.

Here is what I would try to lean on, and what I would try to encourage the group to lean on in the decision making process, so that the healthiest spiritual demonstration of LOVE can be embraced by the group members who are mature enough to capture the essence of what Bill W and Dr. Bob asked us to do... I call it the 16 points of problem resolution.

1.

... tolerance? 12&12 p.141, Tradition Three

Could we then foresee that troublesome people were to become our principal teachers of patienceand tolerance?

2.

... tolerance. BB p.125, The Family Afterward

We do talk about each other a great deal, but we almost invariably temper such talk by a spirit oflove and tolerance.

3.

... tolerance. BB p.138, To Employers

In only a few instances has there been a lack of patience and tolerance.

4.

... tolerance and see what real love for ... 12&12 p.92, Step Ten

Finally, we begin to see that all people, including ourselves, are to some extent emotionally ill aswell as frequently wrong, and then we approach true tolerance and see what real love for ourfellows actually means.

5.

... tolerance, and true love of man and ... 12&12 p.72, Step Seven

We never thought of making honesty, tolerance, and true love of man and God the daily basis ofliving.

6.

... tolerance into our sometimes deranged family lives ... 12&12 p.112, Step Twelve

Can we bring the same spirit of love and tolerance into our sometimes deranged family lives that webring to our A.A. group?

7.

... tolerance, kindliness and love. BB p.83, Into Action

So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us theway of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.

8.

... tolerance, love, and spiritual understanding. BB p.127, The Family Afterward

If they sense these things, they will not take so seriously his periods of crankiness, depression, orapathy, which will disappear when there is tolerance, love, and spiritual understanding.

9.

... tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints ... BB p.19, There Is A Solution

Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respectfor their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others.

10.

... tolerance of others is our code. BB p.84, Into Action

Love and tolerance of others is our code.

11.

... tolerance, patience and good will toward all ... BB p.70, How It Works

We have begun to learn tolerance, patience and good will toward all men, even our enemies, for welook on them as sick people.

12.

... tolerance, pity, and patience that we would ... BB p.67, How It Works

We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we wouldcheerfully grant a sick friend.

13.

... tolerance, that we were beset at times ... 12&12 p.58, Step Five

All of us saw, for example, that we lacked honesty and tolerance, that we were beset at times byattacks of self-pity or delusions of personal grandeur.

14.

... tolerance, understanding and love. BB p.122, The Family Afterward

All members of the family should meet upon the common ground of tolerance, understanding andlove.

15.

... tolerance, understanding and love are the watchwords. BB p.118, To Wives

Patience, tolerance, understanding and love are the watchwords.

16.

... tolerance, unselfishness, peace of mind, and love ... 12&12 p.107, Step Twelve

He finds himself in possession of a degree of honesty, tolerance, unselfishness, peace of mind, andlove of which he had thought himself quite incapable.

During a conference in 1965 Al S. states... "our group conscious reserves two rights... the right to be wrong and the right to change our minds".

Being wrong allows us to be human, and the right to change our minds allows us to change decisions, so we are not stuck with them, when new information is forthcoming that indicates we made a mistake that adversely effects the sobriety of our individual members, the group as an independent enity or AA as a whole.

I truly hope your group will review how this decision to ban someone is in the best interest of... and healthy for any one involved.

John

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

John,

Good stuff, I think you are right on. More than anything the person acting out is crying for help, we have to try and give it to him.

nezyb · Senior Member

Thank you so much to all of you who posted. Things are vey much chaotic right now, not only in my home group, but in our general area. As you said John, his behavior has spilled over to other area groups, except now it has the added venom of his anger against what has been done by our group. Unfortunately, he is so beyond angry (probably more hurt than anger, but he doesn't know how to express hurt as anything else but anger) that he is unapproachable. At the same time, he is literally sitting outside meetings, just off the property, beeping his horn throughout the meeting, taunting folks, and making threats of violence. Many in our group have admitted the decision to "ban" him was wrong, but many stand by their choice, "flying in the face" of traditions. Thanks Rob84, for the contact person to call. I will call her, as I definitely want to be part of the solution, not the problem. I continue to pray for this man and our sick and divided group, and have faith that an answer will come to us. Thanks again. Peace.