Cross talk in meetings

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Cross talk in meetings

odat · Senior Member

Anyone experience sharing your experience in a meeting then having ot torn down by someone else afterwards in their share?

I get this a lot because I don't really have the courage to be myself, even though I really know the program of recovery. I am also an attractive women who the other women don't seem to like much. I have a lot of potential and feel they are trying to keep me from it in order to keep their own comfort and security ok.

What do you suggest?

odat · Senior Member

That's just the thing. I've never been a clique girl, and I can't join 'em, because I'd be being dishonest to my HP. That stuff is all ego and we come to AA to really really live a spiritual life.
It's not about fighting or defending myself, I think it's about yes - finding 2 meetings a week where I feel more comfortable and yes - letting people know me.
This causes me to not sleep at night so I'm exhausted. It's a re-creation of my scapegoat role in my family. it's very hard.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

I responded on the alanon site. But also here you are literally saying "I'm really attractive and they don't like me cuz of that." Putting out that vibe is going to make people say "OMG! That girl thinks she is all that and she is not!" Don't put words or project into other people. Also, it would behoove you to let down the guard and the barriers that separate you from others. People do not hate others because they are pretty...Usually they gravitate towards them. Most of us have problems getting close to others or trusting them. I would drop the M.O. for why you think others talk about you and work on getting to know them instead of assuming they are hating on you because you are so unique, pretty...whatever. Just be humble and remember, words can't really hurt you anyhow.

Mark

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

I was thinking exactly what Mark said -- chances are nobody cares whether you are attractive or not -- but they will certainly pick up on someone radiating a vibe that she is "more attractive" and therefore somehow "better" than the other members. We're all alcoholics, we're no better or worse than our fellows. I would also recommend that if your worries about the judgment of others is causing you to "not sleep at night," maybe you should focus some recovery activities on getting behind why you are so concerned with what others think of you.

I've definitely been at meetings where the tenor or manner of discussion didn't seem "right" to me, so I sought out other meetings that were more comfortable. I have found that it's usually better to find a group that feels right than to try and change the group that doesn't.

GG

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Yes what Mark said. People's feelings about you are going to be directly related to how you feel about yourself, and how you display those feelings. I know that I tend to be a bit overly serious amongst strangers or acquaintances. And this tends to get the same kind of response. A smile and some humor (especially of the self effacing humor) and some honesty go a long way. If i'm feeling a bit nervous when I'm speaking (fear) I generally admit it and make a joke out of it.

I was talking about this subject (people's impression of us, based on how we carry ourselves) the other day. A good example is say an overweight woman (or man), that's happy, interactive, even feels sexy about herself, is going to project the same image. Whereas the same person that is introverted, self conscious, and feels some shame about their physical appearance is going to get that reflection from others.

rrib · Senior Member

odat wrote:
I think it's about yes - finding 2 meetings a week where I feel more comfortable

I have a hard time feeling 'comfortable' with people too, although in my case it's because I'm just a grumpy old man.

My experience is that when I attend more meetings that uncomfortable feeling begins to melt away a little bit and eventaully I find a meeting or 2 when I feel more at home.

The Addiction Club · Senior Member

Find another meeting.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Odat, I take it you are talking about ordinary meetings and not special purpose groups? Personally' I am a fan of positive cross sharing because it helped me a lot in my early recovery even if it only confirmed that someone was actually listening when I spoke. It wasn't till recently that I had even heard the term cross talk/share and it appears some members don't approve of it. As others have said, keep looking for a meeting in which you feel at home. It is so important to have a home group at which you are known and accepted.

God bless,
Mike H.

odat · Senior Member

I want to give an update on this.

My part - my wrong - has been simple - taking it personally.

There are a lot of sick people in the world who are looking for a way out of their pain, and offering myself up and giving my power away like this is insanity.

I finally see it today. I got in my own way.

There's a reason it's called "taking" it personally.

When I allow others to take my power, it actually hurts them because it doesn't last for long, they will still be faced with their own problems anyway. And it stops me from being of maximum service to God too.

It is imperative that not leave places, but stay and deal with it through prayer until I have a teflon aromor around me for taking things personally.

I will use this as an opportunity to grow.

The Addiction Club · Senior Member

odat wrote:
I want to give an update on this.
My part - my wrong - has been simple - taking it personally.
There are a lot of sick people in the world who are looking for a way out of their pain, and offering myself up and giving my power away like this is insanity.
I finally see it today. I got in my own way.
There's a reason it's called "taking" it personally.
When I allow others to take my power, it actually hurts them because it doesn't last for long, they will still be faced with their own problems anyway. And it stops me from being of maximum service to God too.
It is imperative that not leave places, but stay and deal with it through prayer until I have a teflon aromor around me for taking things personally.
I will use this as an opportunity to grow.

Good on you Odat for cleaning your side of the street and admitting your part. I don't believe in cross talking in meetings at all, it can prevent someone from hearing the one thing that may save their life. If you feel like the distraction is too great, just sit back and be patient. Most who continue to judge and criticize in mtgs will usually drink again,(they're miserable) some will make it back and some will not, it's a fact. Make sure your own spiritual house is strong and as in order as it can be, the rooms are filled with spiritual vampires that will try and steal your happiness.

To thine own self be true!

-- Edited by The Addiction Club on Monday 30th of January 2012 05:56:24 PM

-- Edited by The Addiction Club on Monday 30th of January 2012 06:01:50 PM

Tasha · Senior Member

As a woman, I will agree with you, that no matter what you look like, there is probably another insecure woman judging you. But that is everywhere, not just in AA. I am not saying I am more attractive than anyone else, but I hear the "chattering" about other woman, and have felt the "look" too. Woman are kind of harsh sometimes. Time to learn to keep a smile on your face and not partake. Be nice, and don't worry about how you look so much. That too shall pass. Best of luck on finding your place.
Have a great day!

HeatherK · Veteran Member

I like the term, "if you spot it, you've got it." When I assume others are judging, acting superior, and being egotistical, it's a safe bet that whatever they are doing is bugging me because I recognize those undesirable character traits (defects) in myself. It has been helpful for me to employ the kill em with kindness approach in these types of situations. I don't think that is being fake if I am honestly asking my Higher Power to guide me and help me to bring love to all people and all situations. This can mean simply accepting others, or even better, reaching out to others in kindness. Making eye contact, smiling, or saying a kind word goes a long way. We cannot change other people, all we can do is change our own thoughts, perceptions, attitudes, and actions. I know that my HP wants me to be my best self and bring love not fear to the world. Focusing on differences and our own insecurities, and taking other people's inventories is a fear based approach, and will usually only result in other people responding similarly. If we can detach enough to look for our human similarities, focusing on principles not personalities, we usually grow a great deal from this type of uncomfortable interaction. I try to remember that when God places me around people or situations that I find disagreeable, I am being given a HUGE gift, an opportunity to learn, grow, and practice the principles. I believe that learning how to interact, care, and love all people (Godlings that we ALL are) is part of maintaining our spiritual condition, which keeps us sober.

Best wishes on your journey! Heather

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Rule 62 comes to mind

I find it helpful

odat · Senior Member

Tasha, Right on. It's everywhere, and AA is a good place to start learning to tolerate it and have compassion and kindliness WITHOUT people-pleasing.

Heather, Actually it's THEY who need to look at what about ME disturbs them. Maybe I remind them of themselves, or their mother, or maybe they want to control me because they can't get control over their husbands or the world out there, or their own mother and father. My part is taking on other people's stuff, and they know I'll do it. I need to stop it. Adult Children are reactors.

Addiction Club, Yes, there are some who don't want to hear the truth, so it has been stopping me from sharing about spiritual life, and then I can't be of service to God. I have to have the courage to be myself. He has given more a ton of growth quickly, and the others don't want me to show that. And it's true, the women who formed "girl cliques" against me in my earlier years of sobriety have left AA, or are still around but miserable, trying to hang on. They know not what they do, I understand that. I will say however that the only person in AA who ever made an amends to me was one of those women from back then. To this day I think of that, i appreciated it more than you could know. And I have made me amends to anyone I gossiped about etc from my earlier years - I stopped that behavior when i went thru the steps.

Nelson, Yes, life is too short. My HP wants me to have some simplicity and peace now.

Linbaba, True! Rule 62! You're so right! Ego is heavy, spiritual life is lighthearted. Thanks, doll!

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Once I was free of the physical effects of alcohol I started reading and found that selfishness, self centeredness was the root of my problems, thinking the world revolved around me, thinking everything was about me, I soon discovered not only was I less important in the grand scheme of things then I initially thought, other people spent very little, if any time thinking about me at all, they were spending much of their time (like I was) obsessing about themselves.

Thinking that other people spend time thinking about me, and thinking I know what they are thinking shows me I have self grandiosity (thinking it's all about me), delusional thinking (I am not a mind reader), ultimately it's delusions of grandeur.

The truly embarrassing way I learned this was fairly amusing, I came to AA hearing the rules do in fact apply to me, that I was in fact self centered, and grandiose, but in some secret part of my mind those rules didn't apply to me because I was -truly- exceptional, I was better looking and smarter then you thankyouverymuch, thus was allowed a little leeway, as my self centered grandiosity was, in fact, justified by my truly exceptional intelligence and dashing good looks.

Then an unattractive, not very intelligent young man by the name of "Toofless Shane" took the podium, and he told my story, his arrogance oozed from every pore, his self centered grandiosity colored every sentence, his secret superiority showed in every story, and as far as I could tell his arrogance had no merit, it was based on self delusion.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little bit, because it was my story, it was my secret most innermost thoughts coming out of a man who had no business feeling that way......and it hit me....my bloated self importance was based on as much "reality" as his, ie; none at all

It was painful, it was about 18 years ago, and I will never forget that moment of self realization.

I was an egomaniac with an inferiority complex, a self important, secretly grandiose piece of shit that the world revolved around.

The greatest gift AA gave me was the ability to be average, to fit in, to be no better or worse then my brothers or sisters, and to stop taking myself and what my brain told me so seriously...it's a lot less work and a lot less painful...what other people think of me (if at all) is literally none of my business, I am not a mind reader nor am I God, my job is to manage my own emotions at a level greater then that of a teenaged girl when possible, that's it.

odat · Senior Member

Lin, Sounds like you had a real tough go of it! I congratulate you for you seeing all of that about yourself!

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Lin you just reminded me of something my sponsor used to say to me ALOT ... "Michael, settle for being ordinary"

God bless,
Mike.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Susan,
I hope you keep going to meetings and find some people/groups you enjoy. Part of the role of a sponsor is to get you connected with others in the group.

All I know is my wife has been in AA over 25 years. A few years ago her work changed, and she started going to morning and lunch meetings at a local clubhouse. For the first few weeks she complained that all the women at the meetings where unfriendly, rich "B"s. Of course now she has a lot of friends at the meetings and a really strong network of women.

Cross-talk at meetings is a great way to destroy unity and chase people away. 1st tradtion = no serious crosstalk. We share "our" experience, strength and hope. Plenty of time after the meeting for direct dicussions.

odat · Senior Member

Rob, Congrats to your wife for sticking it out. I didn't have any particular "judgments" of these people - I'm the type who always keeps her eyes on her own paper. The egomaniacal, dominating, controlling, manipulating behavior of the alcoholic has always been something I never identified with, and identifying much more with the adult child and codependent I have always felt like I've been thrown into the tiger pit in AA meetings. Folks are oftentimes trying to "one-up" each other. I think some people got more common decency than others in childhood, it can be that simple sometimes.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Rob,
good point about the first tradition. I am not sure I understand what you guys mean by cross talk. On the one hand I get the idea it could be something like "Hey Jim I listened to what you said and I think it's a load of rubbish and you need to start doing the program the way I tell you...." I've never seen this in a meeting and would be surprised if anyone spoke like that. On the otherhand some of our new agers feel that any reference at all to something said by another member is out of order, thus Jim says he lost his job, Dave says "I related to what you said Jim, it reminded me of a time when I lost my job and I found it helpful to....." This would be frowned upon. When I came in I frequently shared a problem in the hope that one or two members would pick up on it and share solutions, and it helped enormously. In my experience meetings are made up of two types of people, those with problems and those with solutions. I wouldn't hold much hope for someone who shares a problem and then takes offence if someone dares to offer a solution.

God bless,
Mike.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

what is "cross talk"?

Definition of the word Crosstalk:The word has been with us at least since 1887. Websters 10th Edition defines crosstalk as unwanted signals in a communication channel caused by transference of energy from another circuit

Here are some quotes from around the web, some from right here at MIP

Typically "cross talk" refers to people giving direct advice to someone in a meeting. There is a custom in many areas to speak only from one's own experience and to avoid giving direct advice or lecturing a group or individual.

"Cross talk" typically means giving direct advice to others who have already shared, speaking directly to another person rather than to the group, telling another member what to think or how to act

Avoidance of cross talk is considered a safety feature. Unlike group therapy, in Recovery members share their own experience, strength, and hope with one another, rather than telling others what to do or what they should think. In the meetings, members refrain from cross talk. The idea is for members to speak only about their own feelings and experiences and accept without comment what others say because whatever they say is true for them. members work toward taking responsibility in their own lives, rather than giving advice to others.

"Any comments, negative or positive, about another's share,
experience, life, program or remarks are cross talk--that is interference."

Cross Talk is conversation between individuals. This includes: Offering advice or directly speaking to an individual member instead of the group

Cross Talk is not referring to someones share if you are moved by it or if it reminds you of your own experience. Nor is sharing your own experience in response to a share. We try to avoid offering unsolicited advice or instruction. Therefore, many meetings discourage Cross Talk.

Specific Examples of Cross Talk:
A member shares, I drank alcohol and I dont know whether or not to start my day count over. The next share cross talks, You need to start your day count over or you are going out.

A member shares, and then I went to rehab and it changed my life Another share asks, Excuse me, can you tell me where you went? I need a recommendation.

Examples which are not Cross Talk:
Referring to the content of a share: A member shares, I drank alcohol and I dont know whether or not to start my day count over. The next share says, When I was counting days, I drank some a beer. My sponsor and I fought about it. I started my day count over, because I didnt want to question it in my own mind.

Another example: John D. shares, I am having a really hard time not picking up. Another shares, It was good for me to hear John. It helps me to know other people feel like I do. That is not Cross Talk.

When I cross talk I'm no longer sharing the message of recovery, I'm telling somebody what "I" think "they should do".

odat · Senior Member

Rob, It is exactly the way you described, but in a very subtle way. You can't always hear it when it done to someone else - it's often done subtly enough that only the person it's directed at can hear it - and that's the way it's intended. Subtle but not so subtle.

Other times, it can be done a little less subtly so that anyone with awareness in the room can hear what's going on, and often others join the troups to fit in, as well.

odat · Senior Member

Lin, That was excellent. I copied and pasted it for business meetings. Thank you.

Here's an example of a cross-talk that was done to me a few days ago:

Me: "I am really seeing lately that whenever I'm affected by others, this recovery thing is no longer about me or what I can get, this is about what I can do for God and those about me."

Next Speaker: "Whenever I'm thinking about anything other than myself I'm playing God. This is about what I can give."

The funny thing is, she WAS playing God by trying to one-up me and say it "better". We can be funny people!

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Thanks for the explanation Lin. I have asked old timers around here but no one seems to have heard of the term, and as it is described above, it is not a particular problem here. It would seem I got a really bad introduction to AA. Back in those days we only had discussion meetings, (big book and steps studies were done in private workshops and speaker meetings were special occasions) and the chair gave feedback and encouragement to every speaker, at every meeting. By today's standard it's a wonder anyone got sober. We should have been too upset by all that cross talk. But then we were taught to look for the similarities and also that AA is not a mutual admiration society and people in AA will do and say things we don't like at times. In a way it was preparation for living in the real world. Of course the world has changed and one has to be careful what one says and how one says it at times. It seems there are a few folks just itching to take offence if you say the wrong thing, or say the right thing in the wrong way. But In AA I have heard we have the right to be wrong, that love and tolerance is our code. I have made plenty of mistakes in my life, sometimes with the best of intentions and within the context of AA, people seem to understand that I am not perfect and I will get it wrong sometimes. They allowed me to learn and grow at my own pace and as far as I am aware, never felt the need to control what I said in meetings. I think it would be a real shame if we changed our meeting preamble to ... share our experience, strength and hope with each other, in the correct way....

Tasha · Senior Member

Very glad to finally know what cross talk means! Thanks all!

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Fyne Spirit wrote:
Rob,
good point about the first tradition. I am not sure I understand what you guys mean by cross talk. On the one hand I get the idea it could be something like "Hey Jim I listened to what you said and I think it's a load of rubbish and you need to start doing the program the way I tell you...." I've never seen this in a meeting and would be surprised if anyone spoke like that. On the otherhand some of our new agers feel that any reference at all to something said by another member is out of order, thus Jim says he lost his job, Dave says "I related to what you said Jim, it reminded me of a time when I lost my job and I found it helpful to....." This would be frowned upon. When I came in I frequently shared a problem in the hope that one or two members would pick up on it and share solutions, and it helped enormously. In my experience meetings are made up of two types of people, those with problems and those with solutions. I wouldn't hold much hope for someone who shares a problem and then takes offence if someone dares to offer a solution.

God bless,
Mike.

Mike,

I sounds like you probably have not had much issue with what I would consider "cross-talk" in your area.

Identifying with someone else or a kind positive reference to what someone has shared is not a problem.

We offer solutions framed within our experiences as opposed to offering a direct comment to a specific person in the group. A lot of this is common sense behaviour that most people in AA pick up through observing how more experienced members share.

Unfortunately sometimes folks in our area don't pick up on proper behaviour and we have to spell it out. (Remember we are mostly renegades and decendants of people who where kicked out of other countries here in the States)

Cross-talk is basically.

1. open, in depth analysis of another persons sharing.

2. Direct opinions and advise given to another person in the meeting.

3. Asking a direct question to another person in the group or some other type of one-on-one conversation

Take care, Rob

-- Edited by Rob84 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 02:19:40 AM

odat · Senior Member

Fyne, Thanks for your experience. I remember years ago being at a meeting where the chairperson picked people to share every day at noon. So if you wanted to speak you might not get to, and if you didn't want to speak, you were supposed to. That was way too much control by one person. We let God run the show.

I don't think we should ever change our Preamble. I think if a group is, as you put it, having a mutual admiration society by always ganging up on somebody to feed their egos, something should be added to the Group Conscience.

AA will never be perfect, and thank God neither do we have to be. It's really about trying out best to adhere to principles.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Fyne Spirit wrote:

I think it would be a real shame if we changed our meeting preamble to ... share our experience, strength and hope with each other, in the correct way....

Well that's just it

It says "We Share our experience, strength and hope"

not our opinion, or what we think others should do, anything that -isn't- our experience, strength and hope is cross talk in a way, that is what makes AA so special, we say "this is what we did" not "this is what you should do", the entire Big Book is written in this format, it says this is how 100 men and women recovered from alcoholism, the book is "precisely how we recovered" the Big Book -is- the definitive piece of literature that defines cross talk and the recovery language that dictates cross talk is ineffective, the entire 12 step approach is predicated on the no crosstalk reality, we don't show up and tell others what to do, we show up and tell others what we did, what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. We don't say "do as we say, not as we do" we say "if you want what we have, do what we do", and this is our experience.

Because one doesn't know the correct word for a Tsunami doesn't mean Tsunami's don't exist. AA and Bill W -invented- the -no crosstalk- reality by writing the big book, it's not new.

The "no crosstalk" rule has always been in effect since I have been around, I have seen secretaries shut people down mid share for giving direct advice to another member, but I have also had some ....God...how do I explain...I shared once in a meeting and this very strange man started sharing that no one knew, no one had ever seen before, he had these thick coke bottle glasses, and he turned around and was staring right at me started yelling at me to "get out of my own way" and proceeded to take my inventory in a way that -seemed- he knew all the intimate details of my life, it was incredibly bizarre, he asschewed me for like ten minutes while everyone in the meeting watched with mouths hanging open, and he was spot on, after the meeting I went to the door and waited for him outside to talk to him, ask him how he knew so much about me, and what he meant, after ten minutes he still hadn't come out so I went back in and he was gone.

It is what it is and God is in those rooms, and I generally speaking don't see God by having someone wag their finger in my face in a meeting (although I swear that one time I really couldn't say wtf happened) I see God in other people sharing -their- experience, strength, and hope, sharing their reality, sharing their innermost secrets, that, for me is where God is found in meetings, and why the no crosstalk rule is in effect, it's explained pretty well throughout the entire book, how one alcoholic, -armed with the facts about -himself- can entirely win the confidence of another alcoholic in just a few hours.

Personally, if someone started lecturing me in a meeting now I might stand up during their share and walk out, I -might- even laugh at them or tell them to go f*** themselves, because in AA unsolicited opinion is, and has always been the exact opposite of recovery, if I am taking someone else's inventory, by definition I am not working the program, the program I work has me take my own inventory, -except- in the case of my sponsor, in which case I asked for his opinion when I asked him to sponsor me.

I mean even my grandsponsor wouldn't "crosstalk" me in a meeting, he would lurch to his feet sputtering like a tea kettle and come over and drag me outside midshare by my ear and give an asschew that could be heard 3 blocks away, but he wouldn't do it inside the meetings.

Crosstalk has never been acceptable -inside- a meeting of alcoholics anonymous, or the book would have been written differently.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Forgive me Lin, we obviously lead very sheltered lives out here in the colonies. I appreciate the clarity in your post and I can't recall a single occasion where the example you use of directly lecturing someone on whatever it was they shared about has happened in a meeting that I have attended. No doubt it might happen, but it would be regarded as extremely rude, and discouraged. It's just absolutely not done. This might be a simple matter of semantics, but there seems to be a second level of crosstalk mentioned in this thread which seems to be disguised as ESH. This is where the victim feels, thinks or imagines the ESH shared by another member is directed at them in some punitive way. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't, but unless you were to restrict sharing to only certified well people, or institute some other means of controlling what others say or how they say it, it seems unaviodable. The solution you advocated earlier of rule 62 might work best. failing that, love, tolernace, forgiveness.
BTW, now I have a better understanding of what you mean by the term cross talk, I am certainly not trying to defend it or encourage it in any way.

LinBabaAgo-go · Senior Member

Fyne Spirit wrote:

Forgive me Lin, we obviously lead very sheltered lives out here in the colonies. I appreciate the clarity in your post and I can't recall a single occasion where the example you use of directly lecturing someone on whatever it was they shared about has happened in a meeting that I have attended. No doubt it might happen, but it would be regarded as extremely rude, and discouraged. It's just absolutely not done. This might be a simple matter of semantics, but there seems to be a second level of crosstalk mentioned in this thread which seems to be disguised as ESH. This is where the victim feels, thinks or imagines the ESH shared by another member is directed at them in some punitive way. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't, but unless you were to restrict sharing to only certified well people, or institute some other means of controlling what others say or how they say it, it seems unaviodable. The solution you advocated earlier of rule 62 might work best. failing that, love, tolernace, forgiveness.
BTW, now I have a better understanding of what you mean by the term cross talk, I am certainly not trying to defend it or encourage it in any way.

Yeah I get that, I hope I didn't come across as attacking your viewpoint in any way, I quoted you to answer and then got carried away like I do, I think we are on the same page on this one, addressing another member and giving direct -advice (this is what you should do) would be considered incredibly rude regardless of the term, we just call it "crosstalk" where I am from

I have been to meetings all over the world, and while there are differences, there are more similarities then differences....although I was attending a meeting one time for awhile that was straight out of "Welcome Back Kotter" where the members talked openly during the speaker, gave the speaker boos and catcalls, threw wadded up paper at the speaker, crosstalked, there was kids playing during the meeting, and it was encouraged, they openly derided another meeting frequently that was called "The Traditionals" that was down the street a mile or two, and after they found out how long I had been around, heard a few of my shares, they asked me to "pitch" a speaker meeting, so I did, afterwards a group took me outside and suggested I would fit in better at this other meeting of "The Traditionals" so I checked it out...and they were right

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

odat wrote:
Rob, Congrats to your wife for sticking it out. I didn't have any particular "judgments" of these people - I'm the type who always keeps her eyes on her own paper. The egomaniacal, dominating, controlling, manipulating behavior of the alcoholic has always been something I never identified with, and identifying much more with the adult child and codependent I have always felt like I've been thrown into the tiger pit in AA meetings. Folks are oftentimes trying to "one-up" each other. I think some people got more common decency than others in childhood, it can be that simple sometimes.

Susan, I know your situation may not be so simple. I was just trying to offer some hope based on what happened with my wife.

My experience is that if we keep showing up and remain willing the most people in AA groups will rally around you. Hope you keep the faith..

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Guys, I never stop learning on this journey. Thanks for you explanations Lin and Rob. I keep forgetting you guys live in the "Wild West" whereas the etiquette that permeates our meetings probably comes from the British colonial influence of the last century, just a touch more conservative. I can just imagine my chin hitting the floor if I ever saw some of the things you guys talk about.

God bless,
Mike.

odat · Senior Member

Fyne, You're right - it may need to be "called out" once or discussed at a business meeting, but ultimately it IS about love patience and tolerance of others when they behave that way. Also, it's not going to stop anyway.

I also hear what you're saying about the "victim" who picks up on stuff that isn't really meant for her. Sometimes my ego does pick up stuff but I can discern when it's meant for me and when I'm simply disturbed by something I hear. In the latter case, I use it to help myself, i.e.: why does this disturb me? Am I guilty of what this person is saying?

In these cases however, this stuff is directed at me, and it's just a way to get me to lose the courage to be myself. Peace is the answer. Trusting my HP. Keeping my eyes on my own paper and moving forward with each moment.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Nelson, just for context, with regards to your comments, how long have been sober and attending meetings? That's a nice rant there, is there some particular issue that you'd like to share?

odat · Senior Member

nelson wrote:

i am just wondering, is it cross talk, when old timers & your sponsor reprimand you & tell you you should not think, talk or feel a way you have reacted, but then not practice what they preach. I have experienced this over & over, the advise is hypocritical & condescending & the objectives seem to be to judge, belittle, control, pettiness & unnecessary micro management. I am a peaceful individual & most of the time I can let it roll off my back, but the longer I am in the rooms, the more I observe this behavior. I have been subjected to these holier than thou & hypocritical preachings & lectures more than a few times. Honesty is absent, the scolder, does not practice what they preach, the truth about self for these hypocrites is something they are not aware of & lack. As I said I am peaceful, healing & gratitude, thanks be to God, the essence of my being, self & daily existence. However, I have begun to notice these characteristics of self righteous hypocrites is rather prevalent in the rooms. Although I pray for these folks, I must admit it does become very wearisome, it is definitely not healthy behavior for either party. I feel pummeled & battered by their preachings & lectures which they preach but don't practice, it occurs a lot & one does begin to feel verbally abused & like running for the hills @ times! Are holier than thou hypocritical reprimands & scoldings considered cross talk?

I would be open-minded to what sponsor says, and even others too, if they're approaching you privately in friendship and brotherhood, NOT telling you what to do in their shares in front of the room. I also ask if you can give an example.
I have to remember no sponsor is perfect, they are alcoholics too, but your gut instinct will lead your journey.

-- Edited by odat on Friday 3rd of February 2012 07:14:13 AM

The Addiction Club · Senior Member

nelson wrote:
i am just wondering, is it cross talk, when old timers & your sponsor reprimand you & tell you you should not think, talk or feel a way you have reacted, but then not practice what they preach. I have experienced this over & over, the advise is hypocritical & condescending & the objectives seem to be to judge, belittle, control, pettiness & unnecessary micro management. I am a peaceful individual & most of the time I can let it roll off my back, but the longer I am in the rooms, the more I observe this behavior. I have been subjected to these holier than thou & hypocritical preachings & lectures more than a few times. Honesty is absent, the scolder, does not practice what they preach, the truth about self for these hypocrites is something they are not aware of & lack. As I said I am peaceful, healing & gratitude, thanks be to God, the essence of my being, self & daily existence. However, I have begun to notice these characteristics of self righteous hypocrites is rather prevalent in the rooms. Although I pray for these folks, I must admit it does become very wearisome, it is definitely not healthy behavior for either party. I feel pummeled & battered by their preachings & lectures which they preach but don't practice, it occurs a lot & one does begin to feel verbally abused & like running for the hills @ times! Are holier than thou hypocritical reprimands & scoldings considered cross talk?

Hi Nelson, would you like to share an example? Sometimes people with a bit of time ask a newcomer to do some things that don't seem to make sense sometimes, it may even appear hypocritical. Sharing a specific instance will allow us to better understand. No matter what, don't drink over it.

odat · Senior Member

Nelson, I can certainly identify with your frustrations, as per my top post in this thread. My response was to simply rule out that you weren't being told something in a positive way that could be to your benefit which is why we asked you for an example.

Can you give an example so I can see if it's the type of thing I deal with?

And can you tell me how you know it's being directed at you specifically?

odat · Senior Member

One thing I have learned is that I can be the member of AA God has made me today.
I also know that alcoholics aren't perfect, myself included.
If it's intentional and directed at one person to discourage and hurt them, that's one story. If it's just a general character defect, that someone doesn't "practice what they preach", well, the truth is we all want to give ourselves a personality we haven't reached yet. :)

The Addiction Club · Senior Member

Read it and live it, you'll be much happier Nelson. You gotta move on and get rid of that resentment, you WILL NOT change other people.

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

If that doesn't work then try this one.

11th Step Prayer

Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace!

That where there is hatred, I may bring love.

That where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness.

That where there is discord, I may bring harmony.

That where there is error, I may bring truth.

That where there is doubt, I may bring faith.

That where there is despair, I may bring hope.

That where there are shadows, I may bring light.

That where there is sadness, I may bring joy.

Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort, than to be comforted.

To understand, than to be understood.

To love, than to be loved.

For it is by self-forgetting that one finds.

It is by forgiving that one is forgiven.

odat · Senior Member

nelson wrote:

don't get the we want to give ourselves a personality we havne't reached yet, wouldn't call it a character defect either. Any one can make a conscious decision not to be a hypocrite. Being a hypocrite is part of the human condition as we all know, common knowledge. Yet, one has control over how they chose to be behave or act, who or what they are. It isn't that difficult to dig yourself, as Socrates said the foundation of intelligence is self awareness. I work daily on being a decent person who treats others with empathy, kindness, dignity, respect & common courtesy, it isn't that hard, regardless of my addiction, especially easier when not using. Hypocritical behavior & actions are manipulative, demeaning, belittling & abusive, not cool. I respect your opinion however I have my own which is that these behaviors are abusive & therefore unhealthy & they are controllable & can be honestly self evaluated & worked on, improved & resolved. It's not that hard to treat others with the respect, dignity & humanity they have coming. Thank you for your input, I appreciate your time & thoughts.

We can't control how other people choose to be, we can only control ourselves. Keep up the good work, you can help a lot of people by example.