Hmmm, I believe in triggers in the sense that I don't think about drinking at all unless certain triggers are hit, and then I want to drink until I forget about x or y. If I can keep my mind off stuff that reminds me of certain things, I have no desire to drink. You don't believe in triggers for yourself, or feel people period? Knowing what triggers me is actually helpful, so I can plan my day better (for instance, on "triggering" days, make sure I hang out with someone until after the liquor store has closed, etc, etc, etc).

Like I said before, my counsellor and doctor both said I am not an alcoholic- but that I have a "drinking problem". Still kind of sketchy on the details.

Interesting topic, and I must say I agree with Lex on this one.

I also drink because I am an alcoholic. However I do believe that when you are new to sobriety certain events can trigger the desire for a feeling that only comes from alcohol.
Why else do old timers tell you that you need to pray, call your sponsor, call a friend, go to a meeting, read the BB, go for a walk, eat chocolate, etc, etc, do whatever it takes until the feeling goes away and the mysterious spiritual feeling takes hold.

I also believe that when you have been in the program for any amount of years, and done the steps and read the BB and live the program certain events can trigger the desire for a feeling that only comes from alcohol. Why else do old timers talk about how they take people with them to funerals or courts or other possible traumatic events. It is not just for the sake of taking a friend. I have listened to speakers talk about having years of sobriety and yet when faced with the certain something they needed the security of a SOBER AA friend to keep them safe.

If staying sober only involved doing a few simple things and having enough desire (willpower?) would we not all just be sober?

For me I stopped wanting to drink for fun, for excitement, for social reasons, for relaxation, etc,etc many years ago. I drank for one reason and one reason only, to escape the life my mind had created for me. I drank for oblivion.
When I am faced with severe situations I still want the oblivion. I have to force myself to do what has been suggested to me so that I won't give in to the oblivion that a dozen beers will provide.

Is that a trigger or is that reality

This is kinda like asking why do I breathe and tends to shift the blame on external conditions, as if to say that if those could be controlled then so could my drinking (denial). Of course I might have reached for a drink on a bad day, but so did I on good days. What triggered me to drink was that I was so uncomfortable living in my own skin. I drank mostly just to feel "normal". What I had to do was change me, so that I didn't feel that way, then I didn't need to drink. Changing me involved working the 12 steps, sobriety was a prerequisite and long term sobriety, a by-product.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 13th of December 2011 01:38:13 PM

Thanks Dean and Andrew for the input.

I do like this explanation

``That being said, it's a good idea to recognize the danger areas in early sobriety, in order to avoid them, and calling them "triggers" is as good a name as any``

I treat alcohol and anything associated with it as the enemy right now. I am very aware that at any given moment UNTIL I HAVE BECOME VERY SOLID IN THIS PROGRAM I might drink. I might be glad enough, sad enough, angry enough, well actual any emotion at all will fill in the blank. So although I am acutely aware that I drink for 1 reason only, reason being that I am an alcoholic, I stay as far away from any danger areas or triggers as I possibly can. I try to be on alert for mood changes that suck me into a void and to call my sponsor when I think I am sabatoging myself.

TipsyMcstagger wrote:

---

There are many times when I can drink somwhat normally if I'm in the right frame of mind and things in my life are in order. The biggest trigger for my losing that tenuous control is anxiety. When I drink to self medicate I go way overboard. The silly thing is that it never actually works. Even though I may be drinking and smiling on the outside the intense feelings of anxiety are still there, they're just temporarily numbed a little. And of course the guilt, remorse and sadness I feel the next day only compound the anxiety. This may sound odd but sometimes I feel overwhelmed by the world. It's feel like I walk around almost as if I'm one big raw nerve ending easily hurt by the sadness and cruelty around me. I don't feel that way often but on the occasions when do it's not good. Those are the times I need numbing.

---

 Strangely enough you illustrate my point exactly Tip

I drank to help me with my problems

what were my problems?

I drank too much

 

 

 

drinking causes the anxiety, drinking causes the situations that necessitate drinking for relief

the man takes a drink

the drink takes a drink

the drink takes the man

 

that describes a life as well as an evening

 

a "clinical" alcoholic many times HAS to drink in order to keep from going insane (without help) but it was his drinking that caused the clinical alcoholism to progress so much

 

that is why quitting drinking has f*** all to do with "Sobriety", quitting drinking is called abstinence, and abstinence is the leading cause of relapse, not drinking is like a "pre-condition" of sobriety, just like not how often you drink has anything to do with whether you are an alcoholic or not, not drinking is only adressing a symptom of what is -really- going on, drinking is the "cure" for alcoholism, not alcoholism itself, it's only when the drinking stops working or becomes a problem to people tend to need to address the problem though, and then shortly, days, weeks, sometimes months they discover not drinking has only made them feel worse, and the inevitable return to drinking occurs

putting the plug in the jug, while critical to sobriety, isn't sobriety, how many times you put the plug in jug Tipsy?

and what has happened every. single. time?

then what happens?

then we see you here again.

I understand what you're saying LinBabaAgo-go and fully agree. My understanding of the difference between abstinence and sobriety is very blurred, as I would assume it it is for most who've yet to achieve the latter. I also agree with your cause and effect philosophy and with the idea that someone like me, with my "issues" and hypersensitivity to the world around me could have very well lost my marbles without the benefit (yes, at times there are some) of self medicating with alcohol...which, as you correctly pointed out, lead to my becoming dependent on alcohol.

It's all very interesting...I don't know how this realization or "self-knowledge" is particularly helpful, but it's interesting nonetheless.




-- Edited by TipsyMcstagger on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 02:48:03 AM

I guess it is different from everybody, but looking back on my history of drinking, I can say honestly that EVERY time I have ever desire alcohol is when something reminded me of my childhood or a show came on where some kid was abused, etc... I have PTSD and would develop severe anxiety or even panic in response to certain triggers, and then drink to squash that depression and panic. Avoiding those things does help me. Maybe there actually is a difference as my counsellor says between an alcoholic and someone who self medicates with alcohol? The thing is, for me, there are quite a few triggers, but when i avoid them, I actually have no desire to drink at all.

The problem is that for much of my life I was trying to understand my past obsessively. For hours a day. I wanted closure and would run things over and over in my head until I was emotionally exhausted, then drink to "relax". I am slowly learning to let go, and my desire for alcohol is lessening (over the last few years the number of times I have drank and gotten in trouble has lessened). However, because I am prone to dissociation anyway, alcohol in any shape or form makes me black out and "fugue" (according to the pros) and sometimes when I go an extended period without booze (like more than a week...) my brain tells me I am fine... then I am at risk for drinking "one or two" for "social reasons". I don't care what my technical name is, I do want to stay sober, so that's why I am here.

I hope that makes sense. And even people who are alcoholics (like I said, I am not sure if I fit that bill, but I do know I want to stop and have been relying on booze since I was a little kid) often tend to drink more often when sad or stressed, right? I also know that I definitely have triggers for flashbacks and panic attacks, and those things precede my drinking almost 100% of the time. That's what I meant by triggers.

I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to not take responsibility for my own drinking or make alcohol abuse seem "light" or anything, just that I know that when I really pay attention to my body and how I feel, a lot of the time I can keep myself on the straight and narrow. But for me it's hard to analyze myself constantly. And I only need to have one drink to get into trouble.

Lex

It's not putting blame somewhere. It's saying- "these things ALWAYS precede my drinking- what can I do about it?" It's admitting that some things, for whatever reason, upset you. Loopy, do you get flashbacks? I do. I know perfectly well that "triggers" are real for some people. I also don't know if I am a technical alcoholic, but claiming that there are no triggers is simply naive. For a diabetic, for instance, a bit of sugar might trigger a major diabetic crisis. For someone with PTSD hearing an explosion or seeing something that reminds them of a trauma might trigger them to dissociate. I am taking responsibility for MYSELF by trying to know why I am the way I am and how I can stay healthy. That isn't blaming anyone.

Your situation might be very different. You might not have specific triggers, you might simply drink because you feel badly in general and in that case, trying to identify a trigger if it's not obvious would feel like "blaming" to you. It's like the difference between someone with a specific phobia and general anxiety- they are both anxious, but one person's anxiety is triggered by a specific situation, object or stimuli and the other person's is free-floating for all intents and purposes.

I don't want to argue with you. And it's not psychobabble. I am on psych disability, so your comments are not only dismissive but insulting. I am not watering down the AA message, just trying to see if this is the right place for me.

Lex if you are trying to stop drinking I believe you are in the right place. In any place on earth where man or woman inhabits you are going to find differences of opinions. My advise is to try on the advise, if it fits, great, do something with it, but Lex if it does not fit then discard it and think no more about it.
From what I read in the posts above here it sounds like a lot of folks that have found true sobriety no longer have triggers and maybe they never did. But I also read some posts that says yes there are triggers, or slippery slopes, or dangerous situations or whatever the name is they want to call a place that temptation lives.

I have triggers, events that make me want to drink. I avoid them like the plague. This is not to blame anything or anyone is is simply a fact that in that paticular situation I want to drink. That is simply a fact. Now if I picked up a drink and said it was not my fault this situation happened and I had no choice, that would be blaming. If I choose to not drink then I have every right to pat myself on the back and say ``Well done you made it thru that situation in a healthy way.

Rob84 has some great words of wisdom and inspiration for me anyway
``My triggers where just about any kind of emotional upset, critisism, anger, resentment, fear, self pity, blows to the ego, and basically things just not going my way. Sometimes it was just feeling good and a little healthy, then the need to sabotage.
Surrender, getting out of self and working on my character defects is the answer to soberity, and ridding ourselves of triggers`` That just about describes me to a T

And BikerBill has words to share that I take hope from for myself
``early day triggers were the lows - to make them better (or even make them worse) and the highs (to get even higher). when i started to get sober there were triggers in the future - like Christmas, or my daughter's wedding or my son's (son was 14, daughter was 20 and not dating and christmas was many weeks away), there were triggers of the past, like guilt, shame, remorse, there were triggers of the present, like what I was doing and who I was doing it with, like maybe a meal with work colleagues, there were physical triggers, like a bottle within arms reach, a mini bar, the booze aisle in teh supermarket,
None of these are immediate triggers now. But they can be dangerous situations. So i've learnt to deal with them.`
In the early days I was advised to stay away from dangerous places, to stay away from wet places (hell, I've only just started going swimming after 5 years now! (that's a joke)) and to stay away from my drinking buddies. Funny how none of those buddies wanted to know where I was, but see me miss a meeting!

How did i get to this blissful, blessed state?
Home Group
Step Meeting
Sponsor
Steps.``


It is my hope that when I find some serenity and my faith gets stronger that these events will no longer trigger the urge to drink.

It is also my hope that I remember how hard it is to get from here to there and that I don`t make the journey harder for anyone else.

Loopy Thank you I am now re-reading the BB and looking for what it is that you asked. If nothing else this discussion has me pouring over the big book. It has just occurred to me that I have prayed today for strength in a situation I am puzzling thru right now and this may just be His answer.

``and as far as I'm aware, this is an AA site where we share about our COMMON problem which is alcoholism. Isnt it? And alcoholics do not have triggers. Fact. Find me some conference approved AA literature, which says we do and I'll eat humble pie. But you won't because it don't exist.``

I don`t think I will find the word TRIGGER since the BB was written in the late 30's and our language has evolved since then, however I will re copy what I do find here

PG 154
Bitterly discouraged, he found himself in a strange place, discredited and almost broke. Still physically weak, and sober but a few months, he saw that his predicatment was dangerous. ( I can't seem to copy and paste and I am out of time to rewrite the whole page here, so I will paraphrase)
He goes on to talk about a bar at one end of the lobby and the thoughts that go on about how he could just go in and sit and have a ginger ale, or maybe have just 3 drinks.
And then it goes on "Fear gripped him, he was on thin ice. With a shiver he turned and walked away"
It goes on to say he chose to use the phone and it says that with that choice sanity returned and he thanked God

Could the above paragraph not be referred to as a trigger?? It certainly said that he was in a dangerous situation, and on thin ice.

You say
"I don't suffer with anything other than alcoholism, which funnily enough, I don't suffer with since finding & applying THE solution.
My observation is that even Bill W found himself facing dangerous situations or triggers until he found and worked the solution.

If you agree with me please don't say there are no such things as triggers and if you don't agree please tell me.
Please don't tell me I need to refer to my triggers as thin ice moments :)
I enjoy this research much more than the research I have done in the past to see if I could drink safely :)

staysoberlex wrote:

---

I guess it is different from everybody

I only need to have one drink to get into trouble.

---

I only need to have one drink to get into trouble is the single most easily definable characteristic of the alcoholic, it is like a red flashing beacon with a siren that says "I suffer from alcoholism", that is not subject to negotiation, any more then someone who has XRays and has been told they have cancer but chooses not to believe affects whether they have cancer or not.

 One of the most common symptoms newcomers to sobriety display is a thing we call "terminal uniqueness", sure I drink like X, Y, and Z, but I am not like you guys, I am different, and here's how.

Every single person who walks through the doors of AA has that, not most, not some, every single person, in order to drink long after it has become "bad" for them, in order to keep drinking has built up this defense mechanism in themselves, known as "denial", and those suffering from denial, can't see it. Period. Denial is part of "The Disease" of Alcoholism.

Every single Sufferer from Diabetes is an individual that is unique, but what they share, is they all suffer from the signs and symptoms of Diabetes

Diabetes is a disease, in that it is an unhealthy condition of the body characterized by certain signs and symptoms

Alcoholism is a disease of the mind -and- body that is -also- characterized by certain signs and symptoms, and one of them is saying "I am unique" I am not like you guys, I "suffer" from X, Y, and Z, and that is why I drink

We all walk through those doors with stories about why we drank, but those stories prove to be unimportant, what's important is what happens -when- we drink, or even when we try to stop or moderate.

If drinking was our problem, all we would have to do was kick the physical addiction right? All our problems would go away, because drinking was "the problem", but the truth is, drinking isn't "the problem", drinking is "the solution" TO our problems, until the drinking itself either stops working or -becomes- the problem.

The first casualty of addiction, like that of war, is the truth. At first the addict merely denies the truth to himself. But as the addiction, like a malignant tumor, slowly and progressively expands and invades more and more of the healthy tissue of his life and mind and world, the addict begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his addiction, even though prior to the onset of his addictive illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the addiction, he may be scrupulously honest.

First the addict lies to himself about his addiction, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the addictive process. They precede the main body of the addiction like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks.

Because addiction by definition is an irrational, unbalanced and unhealthy behavior pattern resulting from an abnormal obsession, it simply cannot continue to exist under normal circumstances without the progressive attack upon and distortion of reality resulting from the operation of its propaganda and psychological warfare brigades. The fundamentally insane and unsupportable thinking and behavior of the addict must be justified and rationalized so that the addiction can continue and progress.

One of the chief ways the addiction protects and strengthens itself is by a psychology of personal exceptionalism which permits the addict to maintain a simultaneous double-entry bookkeeping of addictive and non-addictive realities and to reconcile the two when required by reference to the unique, special considerations that àat least in his own mind- happen to apply to his particular case.

The form of the logic for this personal exceptionalism is:

• Under ordinary circumstances and for most people X is undesirable/irrational;

• My circumstances are not ordinary and I am different from most people;

• Therefore X is not undesirable/irrational in my case - or not as undesirable/irrational as it would be in other cases.

Armed with this powerful tool of personal exceptionalism that is a virtual "Open Sesame" for every difficult ethical conundrum he is apt to face, the addict is free to take whatever measures are required for the preservation and progress of his addiction, while simultaneously maintaining his allegiance to the principles that would certainly apply if only his case were not a special one.

In treatment and rehabilitation centers this personal exceptionalism is commonly called "terminal uniqueness." The individual in the grip of this delusion is able to convince himself though not always others that his circumstances are such that ordinary rules and norms of behavior, rules and norms that he himself concurs with when it comes to other people, do not fairly or fully fit himself at the present time and hence must be bent or stretched just sufficiently to make room for his special needs. In most cases this plea for accommodation is acknowledged to be a temporary one and accompanied by a pledge or plan to return to the conventional "rules of engagement" as soon as circumstances permit. This is the basic mindset of "IÇll quit tomorrow" and "If you had the problems I do youÇd drink and drug, too!"

 Unable any longer to carry the burden of his own transgressions he begins to think of himself as the victim of the unfairness and unreasonableness of others who are forever harping on his addiction and the consequences that flow from it. "Leave me alone," he may snap. "Im not hurting anybody but myself!" He has become almost totally blind to how his addictive behavior does in fact harm those around him who care about him; and he has grown so confused that hurting only himself has begun to sound like a rational, even a virtuous thing to do!

Addiction protects and augments itself by means of a bodyguard of lies, distortions and evasions that taken together amount to a full scale assault upon consensual reality. Because addiction involves irrational and unhealthy thinking and behavior, its presence results in cognitive dissonance both within the addict himself and in the intersubjective realm of ongoing personal relationships.

In order for the addiction to continue it requires an increasingly idiosyncratic private reality subject to the needs of the addictive process and indifferent or even actively hostile to the healthy needs of the addict and those around him. This encroachment of the fundamentally autistic, even insane private reality of the addict upon the reality of his family and close associates inevitably causes friction and churn as natural corrective feedback mechanisms come into usually futile play in an effort to restore the addict's increasingly deviant reality towards normal. Questions, discussions, presentations of facts, confrontations, pleas, threats, ultimatums and arguments are characteristic of this process, which in more fortunate and less severe cases of addiction may sometimes actually succeed in its aim of arresting the addiction. But in the more serious or advanced cases all such human counter-attacks upon the addiction, even, indeed especially when they come from those closest and dearest to the addict, fall upon deaf ears and a hardened heart. The addict's obsession-driven, monomaniacal private reality prevents him from being able to hear and assimilate anything that would if acknowledged pose a threat to the continuance of his addiction.

At this stage of addiction the addict is in fact functionally insane. It is usually quite impossible, even sometimes harmful to attempt to talk him out of his delusions regarding his addiction. This situation is similar to that encountered in other psychotic illnesses, schizophrenia for example, in which the individual is convinced of the truth of things that are manifestly untrue to everyone else. Someone who is deluded in the belief that he is the target of a worldwide conspiracy by some organization will always be able to answer any rational objection to his theory in a fashion that preserves the integrity of his belief system. Even when he is presented with hard and fast data that unequivocally disproves some of his allegations, he will easily find a way to sidestep the contradiction and persist in his false beliefs. (He can for example easily claim that the contradictory data is itself part of the conspiracy and is expressly fabricated for the purpose of making him look crazy! Anyone who has ever tried -uselessly- to reason with delusional patients knows the remarkable creativity and ingenuity that can be displayed in maintaining the viability, at least to the patient, of the most bizarre and obviously erroneous beliefs.)

The addict's delusions that he is harming neither himself nor others by his addictive behaviors;  that he is in control of his addiction rather than vice versa;  that his addiction is necessary or even useful and good for him; that the circumstances of his life justify his addiction;  that people who indicate concern about him are enemies and not friends, and all other such beliefs which are patently and transparently false to everyone but himself, are seldom correctable by reason or objective data and thus indicate the presence of genuinely psychotic thinking which, if it is more subtle than the often grotesque delusions of the schizophrenic, is by virtue of its very subtlety often far more insidious and dangerous to the addict and those with whom he comes into contact. For in the case of the delusional schizophrenic most people are quickly aware that they are dealing with someone not in their right mind - but in the case of the equally or at times even more insane addict, thinking that is in fact delusional may be and commonly is misattributed to potentially remediable voluntary choices and moral decisions, resulting in still more confusion and muddying of the already turbulent waters around the addict and his addiction.

In many cases the addict responds to negative feedback from others about his addiction by following the maxim of "Attack the attacker." Those who confront or complain about the addict's irrational and unhealthy behaviors are criticized, analyzed and dismissed by the addict as untrustworthy or biased observers and false messengers. Their own vulnerabilities may be ruthlessly exposed and exploited by the addict in his desperate defense of his addiction. In many cases, depending upon their own psychological makeup and the nature of their relationship to the addict, they themselves may begin to manifest significant psychological symptoms. Emotional and social withdrawal, secrecy, fear and shame can cause the mental health of those closely involved with addicts to deteriorate. Almost always there is fear, anger, confusion and depression resulting from repeated damaging exposures to the addict's unhealthy and irrational behaviors and their corresponding and supporting private reality.  

It's not hard for me to refrain from alcohol- I read about people white knuckling it and praying and I can't identify. I don't really want to drink. I don't crave it like I did smokes (and still do) That's part of what makes booze dangerous. It's insidious. I don't actually want or crave it, I rarely think about it. Still sober (last drink dec 8th). AS for the comment above that the alcohol creates the anxiety- I agree that alcohol is a vicious cycle, but for some people the anxiety is there long before the drinking starts, booze will just make it worse because it masks the problem and lets it fester. The 12 steps- there is part in them about apologizing to people you may have hurt. Well, while I have been drinking I have lived alone. No relationships, no kids, not close to my family and they live half the country away- so I haven't hurt anyone. There seem to be a lot of assumptions that anyone who wants to quit drinking has done x, y or z and from what I have read, I don't seem to fit. I have never lost a job to alcohol, broken the law, gotten into a fight, etc, etc, etc. Alcohol makes me stupid, it numbs me out and kills brain cells. But that happens to ANYONE who drinks. Therefore, is everyone who drinks and gets drunk for fun an alcoholic? The difference between them and me is I no longer want to drink and the friends I have NOW that I am close to all drink so there is the temptation.

Hope that explains a bit more.

staysoberlex wrote:

---

It's not hard for me to refrain from alcohol- I read about people white knuckling it and praying and I can't identify. I don't really want to drink. I don't crave it like I did smokes (and still do) That's part of what makes booze dangerous. It's insidious. I don't actually want or crave it, I rarely think about it. Still sober (last drink dec 8th). AS for the comment above that the alcohol creates the anxiety- I agree that alcohol is a vicious cycle, but for some people the anxiety is there long before the drinking starts, booze will just make it worse because it masks the problem and lets it fester. The 12 steps- there is part in them about apologizing to people you may have hurt. Well, while I have been drinking I have lived alone. No relationships, no kids, not close to my family and they live half the country away- so I haven't hurt anyone. There seem to be a lot of assumptions that anyone who wants to quit drinking has done x, y or z and from what I have read, I don't seem to fit. I have never lost a job to alcohol, broken the law, gotten into a fight, etc, etc, etc. Alcohol makes me stupid, it numbs me out and kills brain cells. But that happens to ANYONE who drinks. Therefore, is everyone who drinks and gets drunk for fun an alcoholic? The difference between them and me is I no longer want to drink and the friends I have NOW that I am close to all drink so there is the temptation.

Hope that explains a bit more.

---

 I think I am catching on Lex. You take some prescribed medication which does not mix with alcohol, so when you have alcohol there are problems, and these problems would occur regardless of whether one is an alcoholic or not. You might well not be alcoholic then, but only you can decide that. I once took a medication that reacted badly with alcohol. It was called antabuse and it was designed to make me very sick if I consumed any alcohol. So, in a way, I was in a similar position to you, mixing alcohol with this stuff is very bad news and can even be fatal. So there's you and me with our medications. What's the sane thing to do? NOT DRINK of course. No sane person would take a drink regardless of any "temptation" knowing, as you and I both know, that it will cause us serious harm. So what do we do? Drink anyway and get sick regardless, on the lame excuse that there was too much temptation. Why do we do the insane thing? Well I am an alcoholic and as such had no effective defense against the first drink. Doing that sort of thing is quite normal for an alcoholic, we are never more insane than in that moment just before we take the first drink. That's my excuse, what's yours?

God bless,

Mike.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 09:47:23 PM