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Post Info TOPIC: Irma Livoni - Kicked out of AA - Dec 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day)


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Irma Livoni - Kicked out of AA - Dec 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day)
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The first woman kicked out of AA 

This was passed along to me from a friend. Thought all of you might enjoy this bit of our history about one of the 'whys' we have traditions.

Here is the story about Irma Livoni. Each year around this time I try to tell this true story about what happened not just on Dec. 7th, 1941 (Pearl Harbor Day) but what happened to one of the few women who was in AA at that time and about a letter she received in the mail on Monday Dec. 8th, which virtually kicked her out of AA. 

In Dec. of 1984, I had been sober for 2 1/2 years, and working with my sponsors Bob and Sybil Corwin since Jan. of 84. Sybil had gotten sober in March of 1941 and at the time she was 43 yrs sober. We were driving home from a meeting and she asked me the date ( to her it was just Sunday). I told her it was Dec. 8th, and that yesterday (Dec 7th) was the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day.

She said "Matt, have I ever told you about Irma Livoni?"
"Nope, who is she?"

She said, "Well, when we get back to the house, come in for coffee and I will tell you a story about AA history and some of the reasons we have tradition 3. Oh, and by the way Matt, did you know that the literature specifically protests queers, plain crackpots and fallen women,' and since you and I are at least two out of those three, we should be especially grateful for tradition 3. I'll show you it when we get home." 

I laughed out loud, as Sybil had a great sense of humor, and she had been a taxi dancer, back before she got sober, you know one of those "10 cents a dance" ladies, and she was divorced twice, and was a single mom, as well as an alcoholic back then, so the term fallen woman" was something that hit close to home.

She had told me that it was very different back in the 30's and 40's for a woman to be an alcoholic. Sybil said it was a time when women wore hats and gloves, and "respectable women" were not usually found in a bar or at "whoopee parties."

Our Thursday night step study had voted to not cover the traditions after we got to step 12, so I figured they must not be very important and thought I'd probably be bored with the conversation, but she got my attention telling me that queers, crackpots and fallen women" were mentioned, so I agreed to come in for coffee.

Besides Sybil had been sober longer than I had been alive. I didn't argue with her very much.

Sybil got down her copy of the big book. She said, I want you to find the traditions in there, and read me tradition 3. It was a 1st edition Big Book. Thicker than mine.

I said, "Is this why they call it the Big Book?"

She said, "exactly, Bill had it printed on big paper, with big margins around the type, so that people would think they were really getting something for their money."

I looked in the back of the book, where I thought the traditions were, but couldn't find them. "I can't find them, Sybil."

"Exactly. That's because we didn't have any traditions back in 1941 when I came in, and Matt, AA was in mortal danger of destroying itself, which is why we have traditions now." Then she had me find them in my 3rd edition and in my 12x12. I didn't read it all, just the caption heading, and then she started telling me the story of IRMA LIVONI.

Irma was a sponsee of Sybil's. She also became a member in 1941, just after Sybil. Sybil took her into her home. (Sybil told me that many people's bottoms were very low then, no home, no job, no watch, no car, nothing). Sybil said it was different then for a woman to be an alcoholic, That most of them had burned all their bridges with their families, and were looked down upon, even more so than male alcoholics. Sybil said she watched AA help Irma get sober, watched AA help Irma get cleaned up, watched AA help Irma get her first apartment in sobriety.

Then she said that on Dec. 5th, 1941 a self appointed group of the members signed a letter to Irma and mailed it 2 days before Pearl Harbor , on that Friday, Dec. 5th. Here is a copy of the letter.

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 
Post Office Box 607
Hollywood , California

December 5th, 1941

Irma Livoni
939 S. Gramercy Place
Los Angeles , California

Dear Mrs. Livone:

At a meeting of the Executive Committee of the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous, held Dec. 4th, 1941. It is decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to yourself. It was decided that, should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and Dec. 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. 

In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated.

Alcoholics Anonymous, Los Angeles Group
Mortimer, Frank, Edmund, Fay D., Pete, Al

I was stunned. "How could they do this Sybil?" Because we didn't have any guidelines, any traditions to protect us from good intentions. AA was very new, and people did all sorts of things, thinking they were protecting the fellowship"

Sybil then said to close my eyes and imagine my being in the following setting. Sybil explained that Dec. 7th, 1941 was Pearl Harbor Day (a Sunday). She said that on that Sunday night everyone in LA was afraid that Los Angeles would also be attacked and bombed. There was a citywide blackout, people were so terrified. She said that on Monday Dec.8th President Roosevelt gave the speech that talked about "the date that will live in infamy" and that we were now at war with Japan and Germany .

She said, that was the day that Irma received her letter. There was only one meeting in the entire state of California when Sybil came in, in 1941. By December there may have been 2 or 3, but Irma had nowhere else to go, no one else to turn to, no other group in California that she could ask for help.

Sybil said, "Imagine only 1 or 2 meetings in your entire state, and being shunned by your family and by society and by the only group of people who were on your side, your AA group. Imagine them shutting the door on you and sending you such a letter."

I shivered at the thought of it, It was Christmas time, the stores were decorated and now poor Irma was all alone, I thought about how it was in 1984 with 2000 meetings a week to choose from in Southern California , and then I imagined having no other help for a hopeless alcoholic.

Sybil told me that Irma never came back to another meeting, left AA and died of alcoholism. She wrote to Bill about the incident, and I cannot tell you that is the reason that the following is a part of the 3rd Tradition, but it certainly seems to apply.

From Tradition 3, page 141:

...that we would neither punish nor deprive any AA of membership, that we must never compel anyone to pay anything, believe anything, or conform to anything? The answer, now seen in Tradition 3, was simplicity itself. At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholics full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I remember looking at those words again and again. They seemed to get larger and larger.

.JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER
JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER
JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER

I hadn't really noticed Executioner when I had read it the first time at my 12 & 12 study group. Again I felt so bad for this poor lady. Wow, those words really had a different meaning than when I had read the traditions before, So here it is , 23 years later, and each Dec. 7th & 8th I always think about Irma Livoni, and how lucky I am, that we have traditions now, I also think of how lucky I was to have met Sybil and so lucky that she appointed herself my sponsor.

Years later I realized how everything she ever taught me was like gold, but in 1984 I had no idea who Sybil really was or how lucky I was to have her as my sponsor. She was like a piece of living history, but I really didn't realize how valuable that was in explaining WHY we do some of the things we do (like the story she told me about how they never said "Hi Sybil" and no one said "Hi my name is Matt and I'm an alcoholic" back then).

Besides being one of the first women in AA,. Sybil was the first woman west of the Mississippi . She also became the head of LA's central office for 12 years, and she became close friends with Bill and Lois. She and Bob even used to go on vacation with them. She used to tell me all sorts of stories about Bill Wilson and things he said to her.

He was very interested in how AA would work for women, as there were very few women worldwide in AA back in 1941. Marty Man n came in before Sybil did, but very few stayed sober.

I learned that night that no one can get kicked out of AA. We can ask a disturbing wet drunk that he needs to settle down or we might have to ask him to step outside for that day, but we don't vote to kick anyone out forever . And we don't shun people because our guidelines, our traditions tell us that no one has to believe in anything (they don't have to like me) and they don't have to conform to anything, they don't have to dress a certain way, or have no facial hair, or pay anything .) Even if I get drunk again, I am still welcome at any AA meeting.

So that's the story about Irma Livoni. Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be interested in knowing a bit about how and why the traditions got started. I think it sort of puts a face on Tradition 3: the face of a woman, a woman who got kicked out of AA. Who got drunk and died.



-- Edited by John on Wednesday 7th of December 2011 07:26:36 AM

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MIP Old Timer

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Sadly, with this recent fundamentalist movement in AA, this might happen again. Many feel that only the big book should be "approved AA literature" (and quite a few, only want the first 164 pages). Imagine no 12 & 12, no traditions.

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Thanks for the great story John!

It reminds me of some of the meetings I've been to in the past few years where newcomers are quized about how much they drink and if they feel they actually have a drinking problem before being invited to leave and attend the NA meeting down the street by the self appointed 'singleness of purpose police', all because they didn't introduce themselves as alcolhic.



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Good stuff John...Thanks.

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StPeteDean wrote:

Sadly, with this recent fundamentalist movement in AA, this might happen again. Many feel that only the big book should be "approved AA literature" (and quite a few, only want the first 164 pages). Imagine no 12 & 12, no traditions.


You and your 12 &12...People did fine getting sober before the Big Book...And many more did without the 12 & 12 when the Big Book came out. Why do I like the Big Book so much...Because everything I need to know is in it. Simple.



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NO! You cant use that word Queer without hurting my feelings!!! Bwahahahah! See how much I have progressed in about a year lol. Thanks for the story John :) I never found out last time why they kicked her out though. What future plans did they think she should have?

I will take this opportunity to also share another story of how tradition 3 came about, only this time I do it without being a big oversensitive baby with regard to the story of Irma Livoni. Of course it is valid and important.

Here is the story of Barry L. as it pertains to tradition 3:

Barry L. came into Alcoholics Anonymous in 1945. Early in his sobriety, three women became friends with him, and realized the struggle gay men were having in AA. The women suggested that they ask Bill Wilson what he thought of there being special meetings for gay people. Bill told Barry to wait a while and he would think about it. (This was in 1946.)

In 1947 Bill was in Boston for a meeting when three men approached him and asked if it would be OK to start a gay meeting. Bill asked them if they were willing to go to any length for sobriety. When they answered yes, he said if that was the length they needed to go to, then to go ahead and do it. (According to Barry, this meeting did not survive long. The place they met was the basement of the YMCA, and the members often got side tracked.)

Another big step for the homosexuals in AA came in year two of the Akron group. A man came to them who was an alcoholic and wanted to join, but admitted to being a sex deviate. The question came up concerning should there be rules to exclude certain people. Bill W. asked, "Who are we to deny anyone this opportunity?" Dr. Bob asked, "What would the Master do?" This was the start of the idea for the Third Tradition.

Another big step came in 1973 at the General Service Conference. A question came up concerning listing groups as being gay in the directory. The subject was heatedly discussed and tabled until 1974. In '74 there was a lengthy and heated debate, but when it came to a vote there were 131 for and only 2 against the listing of gay groups in the AA Directory.

In 1976 the question of having a pamphlet for homosexuals was brought up. This was voted down, but the pamphlet "Do You Think Your Different" was accepted. Since that time a pamphlet for Gays and Lesbians in AA has been published.

The most recent big step that affects us in planning for the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous is that in 1980 at the Conference in New Orleans, homosexual speakers were officially on the program. This was a big issue to accept of the idea that homosexuality is controversial.

I am so grateful for the members of AA that have gone before me! As Barry L. put it, "In 1945 we were not in closets, we were sealed in vaults!" Coming from that to having our own groups, literature, speakers, roundups, and hospitality rooms at AA Conventions, is quite a leap. It took a lot of work by, not only homosexual members, but may others, whose only concern was what can be done to help achieve sobriety and stay sober. It is a wonderful legacy for us, to, in return, ask what can we do - not only in our homosexual community - to help others get and stay sober.

In 1984 Jerry S, now passed on, spoke at the Gay and Lesbian Roundup in Minneapolis. He was one of the founders of groups for homosexuals in the Twin Cities.

When he was about 8 months sober (in the late '60's), he got a call from a friend one Sunday morning. There were three gay men that wanted to get sober. By the end of the day, Jerry had helped them get to treatment, but he was a wreck! He needed other gays to turn to for support, but where should he turn?

In the fall of 1969 Jerry and a few other men started Maverick AA Feelings Group, which has been in existence every since. Next, they started Lavender, which was a step group and then came Brothers and Sisters. Although the two step groups folded, the Gratitude meetings sprang from them. There are now over a dozen GLBT AA groups in the Twin Cities (as well as Al-anon, NA, and ACOA).

MinneSober, started as the Twin Cities Gay and Lesbian Roundup, was started in 1984. GLBT in Recovery, started as GLBT in AA started in 1998 to help plan the International Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous in the Twin Cities, was organized to help provide social and educational functions for the GLBT clean and sober community.


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Stepchild wrote:
StPeteDean wrote:

Sadly, with this recent fundamentalist movement in AA, this might happen again. Many feel that only the big book should be "approved AA literature" (and quite a few, only want the first 164 pages). Imagine no 12 & 12, no traditions.


You and your 12 &12...People did fine getting sober before the Big Book...And many more did without the 12 & 12 when the Big Book came out. Why do I like the Big Book so much...Because everything I need to know is in it. Simple.


 SC,  It's not my 12 & 12, your idol wrote it.   I completly respect your opinion, however, looking at the big picture,  most of us need more help than this "simple program" can give.  Bill W. knew this and encouraged us to keep looking for more  opportunities for self improvement.  Putting the plug in the jug, cleaning house, helping others, and finding an HP is  just the beginning.  The majority of us have issues with  eating, sex, money, gambling, the law,  relationships, work, family... After a year or two of sobriety you have to disregard  the saying "If you haven't taken  a drink today, you're a winner" because it doesn't pertain to you any more (unless you're a saint).   You're expected to stay sober and there is a whole lot of other fish to fry. 



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SC...I am a bit more taken aback by your admonishment of all but the BB than Dean is. Dean is a very, very polite man.
First, I am turning over my feelings of affectation to my It; when I am offended it is because my expectations have exceeded my acceptance.
Second, I am praying for Those of Us Still Suffering who RIGHT NOW are seeking the healing, loving, and open transcendance from Our disease that AA can provide and encountering fundamentalist rhetoric.
I pray that despite the blatent hubris of one member, they Come. Come To, and then Come To Believe.




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Aquadude, he's just coming at it from a different angle. Bruce Lee said "Whatever works is good". I like the saying "what got you sober might get me drunk". :=)


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yes dad....I know..."don't take someone else's inventory."

Any way....Thanks for the tale, John. I know a couple of people in groups who feel kind of "drummed out". I'll make sure to not let that happen. Thanx!


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StPeteDean wrote:

Sadly, with this recent fundamentalist movement in AA, this might happen again. Many feel that only the big book should be "approved AA literature" (and quite a few, only want the first 164 pages). Imagine no 12 & 12, no traditions.


 We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. (Pg 164 in the Big Book)

Right on Dean.  The program was only a few years old when the book was written.  They knew at that time there was a lot more to be learned about living sober and developing best practices regarding the AA program. They wrote it on the last page of the book for God's sake!!

Don't get me wrong,  I love the BBook and it has all the basic information you need to stay sober, but certainly take advantage of all the knowledge and experience that has been gained over the past 70 years.

 

 

 



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Rob84 wrote:
StPeteDean wrote:

Sadly, with this recent fundamentalist movement in AA, this might happen again. Many feel that only the big book should be "approved AA literature" (and quite a few, only want the first 164 pages). Imagine no 12 & 12, no traditions.


 We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. (Pg 164 in the Big Book)

Right on Dean.  The program was only a few years old when the book was written.  They knew at that time there was a lot more to be learned about living sober and developing best practices regarding the AA program. They wrote it on the last page of the book for God's sake!!

Don't get me wrong,  I love the BBook and it has all the basic information you need to stay sober, but certainly take advantage of all the knowledge and experience that has been gained over the past 70 years.


 Which includes the 12 x 12, the pamphlets, the Traditions etc

 

Herbert Spencer has a little quote in the back of the Big Book about the importance of remaining teachable, which is the crux of spirituality, which is the crux of the program

 

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorancethat principle is contempt prior to investigation.



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I would agree that this is a spiritual journey and there is NEVER NEVER a point at which I can point to any one thing and say "That is all I need to know right there."

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