I got a guy in my home group that I have known since I got there...Listened to him, watched him get his monthly chips, seemd very grateful for the program. I didn't see him for about 3 weeks and he came in a couple weeks ago and got his ninth month chip. So I'm talking to a couple friends after the meeting and saying how great it is he's doing because I like to see people get it. That makes me happy.
It turns out one the guys tells me he saw the guy a week before he came in and he stunk like beer and he was trying to lean away from him so he couldn't smell it...But he did. The guy was drinking and I haven't seen him since he got that nine month chip. I say what the hell...There are some sick people in this program.....Some just sicker than others.
So today a guy comes into the meeting, we have about the same amount of time in AA and we were both working on our fourth steps at the same time when he moved to another town....He came in with a friend and he shared how much he wanted to thank everybody because this was the room he got sober in and how much it meant to him. So I went over to him after the meeting and said it was great to see him and I was glad he was doing well and I left it at that. Said goodbye and left. So I'm giving a friend a ride home who has the same sponsor this guy has. He tells me he saw the the guy at a meeting at a different place a few weeks before and he was plastered...Pushing him...being loud...stunk. You know the routine...Drunks can spot drunks.....
I just don't get this....The first thought that came to my mind was..
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.
This really bothers me....And I don't see how people can live like that...I don't know which would bother me more....The drinking...or the lying. And I would say less than average is being kind. I don't know....It just chaps my ass!
There are quite a few cliches about noticing other people's character defects. My sponsor's favorite is "if you spot it you got it". Chances are that their dishonesty (and relapses) will wind up reinforcing what they've heard in the meetings. I was a perpetual re-tred stuck in the revolving door for the first couple of years. It takes what it takes.
The ones that bother me are the ones that appear to be doing all the right things and seem to be alright on the outside. You see them year after year at meetings and social events.
I'm extreemly grateful for early sponsorship and current program because it has taught me to "self" focus and get off of being judgmental and "talking story" as we call it here locally about others in the program no matter what. I keep my thoughts about others to myself and will not discuss others with others when others are brought up in conversation...(tradition keeping). I am not responsible for another member's recovery or relapse and I lack the the power (powerless) to comment. I don't get bothered by another person's relapse...it's the nature of our disease. I am grateful and elated when they bring their recovery around me.
Hey Jerry...I see people relapsing all the time...And I have a pretty good idea why they do. It's called not working the program of recovery. It's the lying about it that gets me. We had another guy that had 18 months and he got up and took a white chip because he smoked a joint. That's the kind of honesty that's going to make it. He got a round of applause.... And in both cases I was commenting on how well they were doing...I don't know...It's kind of tragic when you really think about it. A couple more to pray for.
1st of all, it sounds like you have NO first hand knowledge of whether the guys that disappointed you actually did what you think they did or not, it was 'hearsay', and that's all it is ... true or not we are not to judge, we work our program and let others work their program ... And so what if what you heard is true, why would it put a bug up your a** ?
It really doesn't matter whether they failed to not drink or whether they failed to be honest with themselves and others ... They hurt no one else but themselves ... and if we have expectations of them, then we do nothing more than set ourselves up for later resentments (the greatest offender) ... when we expect certain things from others, we are in essence trying to 'direct the show' ... doesn't work for me, I learned a long time ago to have NO expectations from other human beings what-so-ever ... That way, I'm never disappointed ...
And if others actions are bothering you, tell me why you would 'co-sign' their BS? ... That's all it really amounts to, 'renting space' in your head for them to make you feel bad ... I don't need the hassle and I don't have enough space left in my head to rent out anyway ... heehee
Hope this helps, take care and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Any time I am bothered about anything, there is something wrong with me. When I become critical and judgmental of others' behavior, I become intolerant. I understand their lying and dishonesty. I spent the majority of my life living that way. I am not allowed to look down my nose at anyone. And I better not forget where I came from. Love and tolerance is our code. Treat 'em as a sick friend, stepchild.
We our only responsible for our own recovery/program. And as was mentioned it was hearsay. For me I cannot put any value in hearsay, if I do not witness or the person tells me they have been using they are clean. I cannot doubt anyones sobriety for if the hearsay isn't true and I act as if it is then I am part of the problem. For a newcomer that comes to this program looking for understanding and compassion to have the people he needs not trust and believe can be devistating. Better to treat all as they are in recovery than to misjudge one.
My own inventory is a battleground of heartbreak, damage, harm, self-pity, self-endulgence and arrogance. Taking someone else's inventory doesn't help me. Praying for them does, and I'm in AA for me.
It's good you shared this, it is something we have to deal with in the rooms and it's not talked about a lot. I've just try to learn something from the situation, you can't bullshit a bunch of ex-bullshiters, their delusion (and our old) is astonishing.
There where a lot of people who shared things in meetings that really help me early on, and I was really upset when I stoped seeing them or they went back out, I wondered how they could seem the understand so much about the program and say great things then not stay clean.
Today I have a special place in my heart for them, I accepted the gift they gave and I am grateful God gave me willingness. I was beaten into a state of reasonableness.
These people make me grateful today, I wish everyone could accept the gift, do the work, have willingness and keep showing up.
The program is perfect, the people are not. The truth is still the truth whether spoken by a convict, bullshiter, alcoholic or the Pope. The message is what is important, not the messanger.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Damn....Sorry for sharing this. If you read what I said.....I did say it bother's me.....I also said in both cases I was very happy for how well they were doing...I said I found it was tragic..and I would have to pray for them....and you could learn from them. There were other things that were said that makes me believe that it's not heresay...But that is neither here nor there. I don't expect to be perfect at this program as I'm told in that book I won't be. Just progress....That's all I practice for....progress. I'm sure that I'll run across other things that will bother me and I'm OK with that..(Thank God I haven't had to run across suicide yet)...That's just part of life. Emotions are fine with me...Without them...I'm dead. This is not something I'm going to drink over. That is not an option for me. Maybe I just needed to get it off my chest and move on. I don't have a bug up my ass over this...I'm not taking their inventory...and I am working my own program. I'm simply emoting...
Thanks for your post Rob It really made a lot of pieces fall into place for me. I have a tendency to make a truely baffling job out of a simple program. I have heard it said to stick with the winners and you will be ok.....well as you said in your post so many people can say such a powerful message but then they stop coming...... trying to pick the winners was a losing battle for me.
What I got from your message was to trust and believe in the message and do not judge the messanger. I believe I can do that thanks
Stepchild, often it's helpful to sort our the source of our negative emotions (fear). I felt it before, fear for them, and fear for me. Hell even survivors guilt because I thought that those folks (that went back out) had a better program (or more sobriety) than I. And if it could happen to them it could happen to me (fear). I learned that I had been willing to do anything in order to not feel my feelings, including hurting others to somehow dissipate my inner shame. I heard something said early on, when I was a bit freaked out by a few of my sober contemporaries going back out. "You'll have to step over a lot bodies to stay in this program long term". Get used to it.
Stepchild, there were a couple folks like this that I knew about in my first year. It irritated me because of several reasons:
1. I was still relatively new in the program like you, and I really REALLY was watching other people to get experience strength and hope. So while others with more time in sobriety didn't care as much....I did. 2. That first several months was hard and I felt like people who just lied about their time were vicariously slapping me in the face. 3. I thought someone even newer might go to them and ask how they stayed sober and the person would harm them because of being a liar. 4. I felt profoundly grateful to AA already for the real changes in me and I felt like those folks were crapping all over AA by being liars.
Of course, my sponsor at the time told me to not worry about others' business....to stay in my hoolah hoop....to count my own days and not others...etc. At this point, I would only be so mildly irritated by it. I am not the AA police. The medallions that I EARNED are the ones that matter to me along with the few that I have given away or seen my sponsor or close friends get. Yeah...it's cool to see celebrants and all, but ultimately, it's just a coin or chip... I am now able to hang out in bars sometimes and not drink. There are probably folks out there saying I relapsed. I go to 2 or 3 meetings a week now and a few told me they thought I fell off the wagon cuz they don't see me at a particular meeting any more. So...I learned to not give a crap about most other peoples' sobriety time after being on the receiving end of judgment. I have seen people from AA drinking in the bar actually. At first I was like "What a fraud!!!" but then I realized that they are not working my program so who cares? I think the one person was actually a drug addict functioning under the assumption he was sober (from drugs) and alcohol didn't matter which is such a common delusion/behavior that I don't much care any more (even though I think it's pretty much a crock). People need to learn these things in their own time and in their own ways.
All that matters is your growth and sobriety and everyone sees the work you are doing Stepchild. You are working a program of attaction and those who are not honest and who are not really living the program are not. With that - Hand the liars over to your higher power.
Mark
-- Edited by pinkchip on Saturday 3rd of December 2011 09:14:53 AM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Fear....I have been riddled with it since before I picked up my first drink....The first fear I listed on my fourth step was fear. I don't know if I shared this here or in a meeting....I'm not even sure where I heard it (it could have been here.). But it was explained to me that fear is an unneeded obstacle that I place in front of something (Person, place or thing) in order to not rationalize it. That made so much sense to me. So my solution to that was to place something in front of that obstacle...Enter alcohol. To cover it up so to speak. So I lived most of my life with an unneeded obstacle in front of an unneeded obstacle. And I wonder how that almost killed me? If I already shared that I'm sorry. Anyway...You know how you go to a meeting and hear exactly what you need to hear....God speaking....It happens a lot..And I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Today a lady brings up how she went to a rehab reunion and a lady from her time there (2 years) picked up her ninth month chip. And she was at first hurt but then she admired her honesty...An I was like....Oh no...Not again...So one of my friends with 49 years pipes in...That he had a sponsor that told him..."Don't analyze....Utilize....And if you want to compare yourself to someone....Compare yourself to you in your last year of drinking." I just needed to hear that. Pretty much the same damn thing you people have been saying...I sometimes just need it beaten into my thick skull. I think I have a charactor defect that is an extemely thin line between anger and sadness. I can feel them both at the same time over one thing. I don't know if that makes sense or not. But it's something I need to pray on and work on. This is a journey for me. And every step I take I learn something...I have a lot of undoing to do. And I am enjoying that...Painful at times but very rewarding...One day at a time. Thanks for sharing your ESH...We are all in this together.
When all is said and done, and I think I speak for some others here, we feel sincerely that you and all the rest here are brothers and sisters in recovery ... When we hear that one of us is experiencing an emotion and/or having a reaction to a situation beyond their control, then we come to aid the thinking of this brother or sister ... we may not bear the same emotional impact but have had similar experiences where we think it may help our brother to share what we have learned ...
Are we upset or do we allow ourselves to worry over each others way of viewing things? ... NO, we are simply concerned about our brothers' growth and wish to share what we have learned freely ... It will definiely seem harsh at times ... but the lessons are necessary to break our old pattern of thinking ...
Whether you're still 'emoting' over this or not, it just simply needs to be put to bed ... consider the lesson and move on ...
Love Ya man, and keep the topics coming, they have certainly helped me to keep the recovery program in the forefront of my thinking ... God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Yep, ... I guess that'll happen from time to time ...
Just wanted to say I loved your response and attitude to this whole thingy ... The greatest thing for my heart today is to see someone like yourself actually growing in the program right before my very eyes ... Kinda makes life worthwhile! ... You just keep goin' man, I'm learning a lot from you as well ...
Love Ya man, and God Bless, Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
I'm appreciating this post even if it is "to bed". I've been taking the inventory of a former sponsee, because I care for her deeply. In fact last night I thought I'd get up and call another person in the program about it. The former sponsee is also a friend whom I have contact with tho I don't work as sponsor with her any longer. I've thought I need to be honest with her about how I see her program and some dishonesty about number of meetings attended. Well, I have my answer here in this post. She hasn't asked for my help, at all. My inventory of her is taking up space "rent free". I thank all of you who have replied.
I had a slip after a year of working in AA diligently. It taught me many things, one of which is how powerful this disease is that I have, and how important it is to be tolerant and have compassion for anyone who shows up in the rooms. What I think of how they do things is none of my business. It's my business to show up and be of service and so just recently I've been raising my hand again to sponsor some one who wants what I have and is willing to work for it. I have to pray that I can love everyone no matter where they are at (in AA). The open door policy is a great thing in the end. I'm still working on judgement both of others and also I can be an unrelentingly harsh critic of myself which in the end keeps me stuck in low self-esteem and distant from my HP if I keep on that track.
Some things that have been shared at my home group just recently that I can relate to this topic were: 1) I come to meetings to learn how to work a program and also to learn how to not work a program 2)It is important for me to work a solid and honest program and have a home group so that when people who are in the program go back out, if they are lucky enough to make their way back, they see me, that I'm still there and still sober. It will give them hope. 3) Fears are negatives developed in a dark room. Peace
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I asked God for all things that I may enjoy life. He gave me life so that I may enjoy all things.
Minding my own business about such matters was the very best advice I was given in my early days. And if I'm looking at someone else I'm not looking at me was another. I know a guy, 30 years in AA 20 yrs sober. Took him 10 years of doing exactly what u speak of before he finally put the drink down. What did he do right? He KEPT COMING BACK... I saw somewhere above someone else mentioned it, WE ALL HAVE FEET OF CLAY....all of us.
Start worrying about yourself instead of being mister private detective digging into every other drunks business. You're the only pisstank you need to worry about.
Start worrying about yourself instead of being mister private detective digging into every other drunks business. You're the only pisstank you need to worry about.
Tipsy's right
The worst thing that ever happened to me was I started going to Joe and Charlie seminars years and years ago, and they were -great-, they were amazing, they mapped out the book mathematically, after a few years of those I started looking around and Lo and behold, everyone was doing it wrong!!!!
thus began my terrible twos, running around like chicken little thinking the AA sky was falling and taking everyone's inventory but my own, it was one of the most miserable periods of my life
by definition if we are taking someone else's inventory we are not working the program, we are doing the -opposite- of working the program, which is, for the first time in our lives to start taking stock of ourselves, and not others, if I take someone else's inventory I am suffering from a spiritual sickness, the very spiritual sickness I came to heal myself of, self delusion and self grandeur.
I spend more time working with the still suffering alcoholic whether he is lying or not then I do hanging out with people who's idea of a good time is to take other peoples inventory at or around meetings, because I have a chance to help the still suffering alcoholic, but with the ego puffed balloon people, you can't help, because they already know it all, and even listening to that crap makes me sick, like is bad for my spiritual condition, because it's easy for me to slip into that
Self-righteous anger also can be very enjoyable. In a perverse way we can actually take satisfaction from the fact that many people annoy us, for it brings a comfortable feeling of superiority. Gossip barbed with our anger,a polite form of murder by character assassination, has its satisfactions for us, too. Here we are not trying to help those we criticize; we are trying to proclaim our own righteousness.
So for me, the spiritual axiom says if I am upset about something, there is something wrong with my spiritual condition, thankfully I have some tools (steps 3-9) to go check it out, for me it isn't fear always, sometimes it's low self esteem, or it could be unrelated, but it behooves me to find out, that way I am working my program, and not someone else's, and then I find the smelly drinking guy, give him a hug and ask him to coffee
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Light a man a fire and he's warm for a night, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Something else I picked up on in your first post was that "some are sicker than others" thing I hear banded about the rooms, I just wanted to share my experience of that saying and what it ACTUALLY means.
I used to hear people saying "some are sicker than others" and feel really sorry for that "some" look around wondering who this "some" were. I shared this with my then sponsor who laughed so hard I thought she would stop breathing!! She said, "you idiot, you are that "some"...I was go smacked. Then she explained herself. The "some" are the REAL alcoholics, who NEED to come here, and TAKE the steps, HAVE to work with others, or else it's certain death!! The "others" are the hard drinking type who come to meetings, have a nice chat, drink tea, and NEVER do service because they simply don't HAVE to do this stuff to stay sober. GOOD LUCK to them I say......lol....AA is full of them. They are NOT alcoholics of my type. They don't identify with me, and I don't with them.
If u are an alcoholic of my type...the HOPELESS veriety... YOU ARE THAT SOME xx
I dont have a problem with it...I learned from it...Maybe someone else can too.
Aye. None of us walked into the rooms with the Altered Attitudes already working. Quite the opposite, I'd imagine. I daresay that all of the good advice you get here or or in the meetings is second, third, forth etc etc hand advice that gets handed down, and will be handed down again.
This sort of stuff helps me remember that that if I'm not tolerent and loving to my fellow brothers and sisters then I'm not getting well and I'm not helping them get well either.
I think when I really looked at it...And heard that guy in that meeting...It hurt me because I cared so much about them....Plain and simple...I just like to see people get it!
