No...I'm not asking how to do it. The reason I bring this up is a meeting I went to this morning they asked for a topic and a guy shared that he was coming back and and he had been in and out of AA for years. He said he had cut down on going to meetings and went back out after 4 months sober. Never brought up the steps.
So Relapse was the topic and about 4 more guys shared the same type thing. They were going to get it right this time. Go to more meetings etc. The one thing I knew when I went to AA was that it was a 12 step program. I was clueless as to what that meant, but I knew it was important. Then I read this in the Big Book. You hear it every day when they read How It Works,
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
I know in the original version Bill W. used Directions and the fellow recovered alkies had him switch it to suggestions because drunks don't like to follow directions. I understand that. I was one. So it is a suggestion... But it's the only suggestion they have.
So I brought up the point that my proirity when I got out of rehab was to get recovered first and not worry about getting a job, a new apartment, a girlfriend etc. and to just put my time and effort into taking those steps. And that's what I did. I said I have never seen somebody come in and say.."I just finished taking those 12 steps and went out and drank." So here are my questions...
Has anybody finished those steps (correctly) in less than 3 months and relapsed?...6 Months??....1 year?? If so how long were you sober?
Has anybody stayed sober for 1 year without taking the steps??...2+ years?....5+ years? If so...Did you relapse?
I guess I'm just looking for that rare person that thoroughly followed the path and failed.
-- Edited by Stepchild on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 02:56:38 PM
-- Edited by Stepchild on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 04:28:55 AM
And if you did them right and are still sober go ahead and add that on here too. Myself...Less than three months and I am happily sober right now.....And I'd have to be a real dumbshit to go out and pick up. Now that I've had a glimpse of what living without alcohol can be like. Forget all the other God given gifts that come with it.
Here's what my sponsor told me ... when I returned to the program ...
Referring to AA and Al-Anon, Al-Ateen, Al-Atot, Al-Adog he said: There is NO failure here ... never has been and never will be ... there is absolutely NO way that AA can fail, never has, never will, impossible to, and cannot fail ...
Provided you do exactly WHAT we tell you to do, the WAY we tell you to do it ... (meaning that if you have worked the steps, learned the principles and have applied these to your life and live them daily, you will never have to worry about 'relapse' ever) ... If any person fails ... it is very simple ... they stopped living the principles on a daily basis ... they allowed something else in life to become a higher priority than staying sober and living the program ... pure and simple ... it really IS this 'black and white' ...
God Bless,
Pappy
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'Those who leave everything in God's hand will eventually see God's hand in everything.'
Just consider yourself blessed stepchild. I have spent a long time wondering why I have gotten this gift and others haven't...I worried more in my 1st year that I hadn't done enough and that I was going to get "struck drunk" unawares. But....I did a lot. I did not just start working steps, I went to daily meetings, sometimes multiple ones and called my sponsor every single day. I was not going to drink...no matter what. I had to grow up. I never considered relapse an option.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I was at a meeting and heard an old timer say..............If you keep coming, you don`t have to keep coming back.......... although that does not say anything about doing the steps I am thinking that attending meetings on a regular basis would naturally lead to doing the steps
Has anybody finished those steps (correctly) in less than 3 months and relapsed?...6 Months??....1 year?? If so how long were you sober?
Has anybody stayed sober for 1 year without taking the steps??...2+ years?....5+ years? If so...Did you relapse?
I guess I'm just looking for that rare person that thoroughly followed the path and failed.--
Hi Thad,
Good topic of discussion. Personally it was probably 15 months until I had the vast majority of amends 9th step out of the way.
My experience is that most people who "finish" the steps will get drunk, yes we move through them at first in order, but to thoroughly follow the path is to continue working the steps.
Step 3, prayer every day
Step 9, Must still be willing to make amends if they at some point in the future become possible.
Step 10, Continue to watch for Character defects, ask God to remove them, make amends when needed. PG 84) Our funtion is to grow in understanding and effectiveness, this is not a overnight matter. it should continue for our lifetime.
Step 11, Sought through prayer and meditation to "Improve" our conscious contact with God.
Step 12, Share ESH, work with others, homegroup, meetings.
My experience is that I don't think you can find a correlation on speed in working the steps and relapse.
Some people are more damaged and foggy and fearful when they come in. If they can develop a lifestyle of honesty, go to meetings and get into the fellowship, God will give them some grace until they can overcome the fear to work the action steps.
Those incapable of completley being honest with themselves and the narcissistic varieties, look at themseleves and special, different and unique. They often can't completely give themseleves to this simple program.
IDK maybe Passages Malibu ?
-- Edited by Rob84 on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 10:06:43 PM
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
The only indicator of relapse will be if you stop living the steps and applying them in your life daily. This is where people get confused. You never stop doing the steps because you live them. That is why there are step meetings that we all go to even though we have worked the step, know the step, and have been to bunches of other meetings on that step. Our perspectives change as we age, but we keep working all the steps to the best of our ability.
As you do a step 10 every night Stepchild, you are reviewing how well you are working 1 through 9 and 11 and 12 daily and getting more adept at solving problems and just dealing with life on life's terms using those steps.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Lots of good stuff said here. All I can add is "If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through."
Sure, it's a new way of life. Being a drunken moron was a way of life, too. This way is much better.
Bill W apparently once said that he should have written "Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" They had very high success rates in those early days but it has to be realised they had a very simple way of working. To start with they only worked with real alcoholics, and then only those that really wanted to recover. Those that wanted to drink were left to do as they wished. Then of course there were no outside agencies referring people to AA, and AA meetings were not part of the court process as they are these days. So back then they worked only with real alcoholics who wanted to get sober and they said of those that really tried, 50% got sober at once, and a further 25% after one or two relapses, and many of the remaining 25% showed some improvement. They took them through the steps quickly and then, as Rob says above, showed them how to develop the steps as a way of life. When they wrote the book I think the longest sober was 4 years. As another memebr of this forum says to the question of how quickly should I take the steps - how quickly do you want to get well? We take the steps to recover not the other way around. In today's AA, when you filter out the non alcoholics, the ones that don't take the steps (you can't be counted as an AA failure if you never tried the medicine) the ones forced to attend due to courts and so forth, you will find, among the real alcoholics that really try, a recovery rate very similar to the old days. It is in the trying that we suceed. There isn't necessarily a "correct" way to take each step. It is not an academic exercise. In fact as each of us travels this road, our perception and understanding of the steps changes all the time. My understanding when I first took the steps was nil. But that doesn't seem to bother God. He seems happy with the honest attempt to practice the principles in all my affairs. Sister Ignatious once observed on the groups of alcoholics passing through her hospital under the care of Doctor Bob, that the groups which were composed entirely of first timers had greater success than groups which had a mixture of newcomers and relapsers. What does this tell you? There is always the temptation to sympathise and also express the fear that there but for the grace of God go I. And that's about the limit of what you can learn. The other more insidious message that Sister ignatious seemed to notice was "if he got away with it , maybe I can too". In truth there is nothing useful to be learned from a returned relapser. The knowledge of "what not to do" isn't a scrap of use to the recovering alcoholic. What he needs to know is "precisely how we recovered" and he will learn that from other recovering and recovered alcoholics, through the meetings and the steps. My experience may differ from Rob's or perhaps I express it in a different way, but the sooner an individual begins honestly trying to take the steps and incorporate them into their lives, the better their chance of recovery. I have noticed many come along, feeling dreadful when they arrive, feel physically better after a few months, see less of a need to tackle the steps as a result and continue to procrastinate and squander their window of opportunity. Eventuall they fall victim to the lack of defense, and go out for further research. Sometimes they come back but not always.
I relapsed more than once, including after I had worked the steps "right" (with guidance from my sponsor and a therapist who specializes in addiction). They're not magic. They just help change your mindset in a way that encourages, but does not guarantee, sobriety. I still work the steps and am not doing anything different or "better" in that respect -- I have just learned more about my triggers and how to manage them in a way that keeps me away from that first drink.
I think it is pretty much a given that if you understand step 12 you are living and practicing all these Principles (steps) every day for the rest of your life. Stop...And you will probaby drink. Drink...You will probably die...I know I will. I should'nt have used the word finished...What I should have said is..."Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps"... I like to go to step meetings because maybe I can share something that might help someone and there is always someone that can share something that will help me. And Fyne Spirit I love the History of AA as well. In the early forty's (The book came out in '39) They would take prospects through the steps in a week or two. You didn't go to a meeting till you went through them. Meetings then were maybe once a week at someones house and you have to remember these people lived in different towns in different cities. I think Doctor Bob was credited with sponsoring over 6000 drunks. That's pretty amazing. Bill W. wrote the book...Dr. Bob carried the message.
When Bill W wrote those steps he had the 6 precepts of the Oxford Group...Done some studying on that...But that's a different story. Cool stuff. But they were the basic layout of the steps.. Complete Deflation (1), Dependence and Guidance from God (2-3,11), Moral inventory(4), Confession (5-7), Restitution(8-10) and Continued work with others (12). When Bill was writing How it Works he prayed for help for about 30 minutes and wrote that beautiful text that you hear every meeting in about 45 minutes. He felt there was too much "wiggle room" for drunks to slide out of the original 6 precepts...And he wrote them to keep you going rather than slide out. He counted them when he got done and numbered them. It was 12. He liked that because it was a Divine number..The Apostles... and that's how they became 12.
I do consider myself Blessed and thank God for that every day and night. But this is a program written by drunks for drunks to recover and I think anyone that wants to STOP drinking can do it.. The "directions" or instructions are laid out in the first 103 pages of the Big Book. You don't have to read five huge manuals on it. That's 103 pages...Why, How and When. Doctor's Opinion and Pages 1-43 are devoted to Step 1. Next 19 pages on steps 2 and 3. Then 20 pages he covers 6 steps...4-9...Last 19 pages 10-12 and that is with step 12 having it's own chapter.
When he mentions "If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through." in the promises he is talking about Restitution...8 and 9. Making amends is the phase of developement we are taking with pains. That step actually did amaze me because I wasn't expecting to get a lot of the responses I got....Mostly they were happy I was trying to get help. Didn't win them all. But I felt a lot better and that's what it is for.
My favorite Step is Step 11. I like to practice that. I didn't know what meditation (quiet time) was and I came to realize I didn't know how to pray either. Progress not perfection. I find most of my prayer is for others and I ask for stength, courage, compassion and wisdom when carrying out what his plan for this day is for me to do. Help me that I may help someone else. I don't have set prayers...as I like to commune with God. And I do it throughout the day (I use the word God...But the beauty of this program is you can use any name for any power greater than you that you want. God works for me...Literally) I am a firm believer that when you do good things they come back to you. More than you gave. That's a win win situation.
I do love going to meetings..Went to three yesterday and two today. I don't go because I need to. I go because I want to. I love being around alkies that don't drink and I learn something in every one. Like these steps..you get out of them what you put into them.
I find these steps truly amazing and the only way I can fail is if I choose to stop practicing them. I have absolute faith that, that is not in God's will for me today, no more than drinking is.. As far as words like "trigger" go...My obsession to drink has been lifted. As promised. It's not magic...But for me it is a Miracle.
Stepchild, in those old days sponsoring meant taking someone through the steps. Bob actually took 6000 people through the steps which I am told works out at about one a day fro his entire sobriety. Imagine that!
Yeah they never did use the word sponsor, That's an AA thing...Like 90 in 90... I'd heard he'd take a few people through them in a day. I think that it is important to get them under your belt. You can see the urgency they stress in the writing of that book. All I know is I needed to change...and those steps will change you.
-- Edited by Stepchild on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 03:01:25 AM
Has anybody finished those steps (correctly) in less than 3 months and relapsed?...6 Months??....1 year?? If so how long were you sober?
** I worked the 12 steps as outlined in the Big Book a good number of times with a sponsor who had a sponsor, and basically tried to hide in the rooms of AA for my first 6 years (1983-1989), I went to 3-4 meetings a day, to no avail. I relapsed at a variety of stages or time frames... 30 days, 90 days, 7 months, one year... I collected so many white desire chips that you folks wouldn't even clap for me any more!
I felt that maybe I was one of the people who was going to have to die so someone else could live.
I was missing something, I knew it, ... maybe I was in the other group that we read about in every meeting... "those who cannot, or will not completely give themselves to this simple program"... but I was going through all the rituals, the traditional AA motions... and still ending up drunk.
Then I sat down with a man, and he pointed out to me something that had never crossed my mind or been brought to the table...
I believed in God, I had faith in God, I had "found" God... but I lacked a true relationship with Him that allowed me access to Him. This man went to the A, B, C's that we read in every meeting...
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
"Sought"... had I been seeking Him, in the face of others, in their words, in His creation, in events and circumstances, in my life experiences, and in my times of hardship, trials and tribulations of life?...
Did I simply say, well memorized, some what rehearsed prayers written by others, or did I actually talk to Him every day? With my own words, as I would talk to a trusted friend? From the heart, not the brain?
Did I listen to Him, to that inner voice of truth... or turn down the volumn on it when it went against what my grand mind was manufacturing?
This was in late 1989, and since then I have been a seeker... and I haven't had a drink since. My sobriety date is 12/21/1989
The Big Book says, not once but twice.. in the clearest of terms..
Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.
This man made it clear that a sponsor, going to tons of meetings or even working the steps wasn't what was going to keep me sober... it was God, and without a true relationship and access to Him, I would probably die a drunk.
He also pointed out that the treatment of alcoholism is a multi billion dollar a year industry...and 40% or more of their gross is from "repeat customers". Did I really think they wanted me to get so well, I'd never come back?"
He pointed out that I was stuck on the "one day at a time" theory..."just for today".. stuff...which instantaneously placed a reservation on my sobreity... for tomorrow. He said I needed to grasp this way of life, as a life time committment between me and God, not any one else, and honor that committment "one day at a time" by doing certain things... such as working with others, being of service, random acts of kindness,..etc.. This washed out any reservations I had about what level of committment I was willing to make, what lengths I was willing to go to... in order to get and remain sober. It became for me a life long journey, ...
I'm am ever so grateful that God saw fit to put this man in my path, so that he could share with me... the truth... not a distorted, treatment center version of it, that is being persepicated throughout the rooms of AA. That this was never intended by Bill W, or Dr. Bob to become a self help program.
Today I am a seeker...and I try to see God all around me, in me, and I talk to Him as I would a trusted friend and I pump up the volumn when I hear that inner voice of truth speaking to me.
I have access today... to a loving God that wants to hear me, and loves to share Himself with me...
And drinking alcohol hasn't been an issue in my life for many years.
John
-- Edited by John on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 05:46:36 AM
Thanks for sharing everyone, great topic. I know when I came to AA 2 years ago I relapsed more times than I can count, I never worked the steps as diligently as I am now. I now am on step 3, have 50 days sober and a local sponsor I call every night. I let go of all reservations and realize now this is a WAY of living. And for me to drink again is to die.
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God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Thanks for sharing everyone, great topic. I know when I came to AA 2 years ago I relapsed more times than I can count, I never worked the steps as diligently as I am now. I now am on step 3, have 50 days sober and a local sponsor I call every night. I let go of all reservations and realize now this is a WAY of living. And for me to drink again is to die.
Good man Steve....Just remember....The way to work step three...Is by working steps 4-12. And doing them with a lot of your HP's help. I prayed my way all the way through those steps. Nothing wrong with asking for help. That's what he's there for.
