Guys please help :) Looking for open insight to develop true understanding

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Guys please help :) Looking for open insight to develop true understanding

jj · MIP Old Timer

it would be a good thing to keep going to Alanon meetings and give him his space so you can take care of you. Sorry we cannot give you a list of what will happen or of what might happen. there are "Co dependent" 12 step meetings, too. each recovery is personal and something one has to want with all your heart. he may recover and then again, he may not. don't let his addiction rule your life. you need to be healthy and happy, you are in charge of you and he is in charge of him. Alanon can give you new ways of looking at things and remind you that your health is important and your emotional being needs your attention. let go..... so you can be you. hopefully he will get well and be honest with you.
big hugs from an alcoholic who is seeking recovery. i am happy, the happiest i have ever been. it is not easy, even though this is a simple program. i want my new sober life more than anything else in this world, so it is working for me. take care, jj/sheila

-- Edited by jj on Saturday 12th of November 2011 11:12:14 AM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

WOW KeepingFaith, ... You just said a mouthful and in an intelligent way, I might add ... If you're not and alcoholic/addict, then I must say that you really seem to have a good grasp of what the disease is all about ... Actually I find it quite rare to find a non-alcoholic with such a degree of understanding ... But alas, if your not an alcoholic, you can never fully understand us, mainly because we ourselves never come to fully understand us either ...

From the description of your actions, I feel you're on the right track ... continuing to see him before he gets help will only enable him to manipulate you to his desires ... and this won't help him ... 1st he has to admit to himself that he has a problem and cannot solve it by himself, else no progress will be made ... I think your best bet is to remain supportive and patient ... there's no guarantee he will take to our program of recovery, even if he were to stay sober for a few months, there's still no way you, or anyone else can be sure he won't pick a drink and/or use again ...

So how much more of your life, in terms of 'time', are you willing to spend on this guy? ... If he were to seek help and go to meetings regularly, then he'll need at least a year of no sexual relationships before he can begin to implement the principles of the program into his life ... (the emotional 'roller coaster' of any normal relationship is more than an alcoholic/addict can handle during the first year of recovery .... many have ignored this and many have failed)

You are 100% correct that we become a different person when we drink ... also that it's the first drink that gets us, cause the first drink sets off an incredible craving that none of us can resist ... we absolutely, positively, must have another drink and soon we will do whatever is necessary to satisfy that craving ... even to the expense of losing our friends, family, and any self-respect we may have had ...

From your post above, I have no criticisms of your actions at all, in fact I applaud your caring attitude and love for this man ... (It would be great if he stumbled across your post and read it himself) ... But just be advised, he will never be totally cured ... he must learn to stay sober, one day at a time ... If your relationship works out for now, great, but he needs at least a year's space to work things out ... and there'll never be any guarantees that he won't get drunk again, you must understand that right now before going any further with him ...

God Bless You both,
Pappy

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Saturday 12th of November 2011 11:50:30 AM

rrib · Senior Member

KeepingFaith wrote:
give me some insight as to what he is going through

Getting high/drunk is the most important thing in his life. Any 'relationships' he has counts as a distant 2nd place.

You're best bet is to stop trying to understand him and start trying to understand why you want to be involved with an addict/alcoholic. Al-Anon can help.

After you figure out your own motivations would be a good time to re-examine how you really feel about having a relationship with him.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Rich (rrib) is right, ... Unless and until he goes to rehab or stops drinking and goes to AA, your bf (Abf) is going to make getting high/drunk his top priority in life ... you won't even come close to being number one prioity ... What you need to consider is how much TIME are you willing to wait to see if this guy can straighten out ... Women view age and 'aging' quite differently than men, usually ... Do you want to chance giving a couple years of your life on the outside chance this guy will come around? ...

I agree with 'rrib', time to re-examine how you really feel about this relationship ...

Good luck and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

rrib wrote:
You're best bet is to stop trying to understand him and start trying to understand why you want to be involved with an addict/alcoholic. Al-Anon can help.
After you figure out your own motivations would be a good time to re-examine how you really feel about having a relationship with him.

I love this man. Truly, undoubtably, love him. I love him in sickness and in health. Ya know how they say "you just know"? Well, he's the one. And he's sick. Ive accepted that and look at it the same way as if he got into a terrible accident which left him a paraplegic, I wouldn't ditch him because he was in a wheelchair. For me, understanding his disease, as much as I can, helps me to open my heart and thus allows me to come to true & honest acceptance so I can have my inner peace and continue to grow.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Pythonpappy wrote:

So how much more of your life, in terms of 'time', are you willing to spend on this guy? ... If he were to seek help and go to meetings regularly, then he'll need at least a year of no sexual relationships before he can begin to implement the principles of the program into his life ... (the emotional 'roller coaster' of any normal relationship is more than an alcoholic/addict can handle during the first year of recovery .... many have ignored this and many have failed)

in fact I applaud your caring attitude and love for this man ... (It would be great if he stumbled across your post and read it himself) ... But just be advised, he will never be totally cured ... he must learn to stay sober, one day at a time ... If your relationship works out for now, great, but he needs at least a year's space to work things out ... and there'll never be any guarantees that he won't get drunk again, you must understand that right now before going any further

Thanks Pappy! :) I am not an alcoholic. I love one ;) I do understand that it is treatable and he will never be "cured" and if he gets sober, I am willing to support him wholeheartedly in his recovery and stay committed to mine. I was happy that you shared that with me!! It was like unearthing a diamond! :). That may be why he is also "avoiding" me and I would have never thought of that. But it makes so much sense! I'm not putting my life on hold. I just know that any other man would be 2nd and I'd be settling. I've known this man 13 years before we got romantically involved. So I've watched him go down the tubes over the last year and it breaks my heart. In those 13 years, i wasnt ready for him. Now we know how wonderful we fit, bit he's not ready. Hes not just my lover, he's my best friend. And I'm resolved to love him-as he is. Which is why giving him the space & time he needs isnt necessarily easy for me but I believe it is necessary for him. So if It takes him 13 years to be ready for me, then I'll be here, ready for him. I'm trying to learn his perspective whatever way I can. It helps to understand and also helps to let go of resentment. I really appreciate your sharing and taking time with me! (((((Pappy))))))

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey KeepingFaith, ... You are indeed an incredible woman ... The love you're expressing is very rare in this day and age ... if you're willing to stick with this guy through all this, and never leave him, then you've just described what Holy Matrimony is all about ... 'Til death do us part' and 'in sickness and in health' ... makes me wonder why your not already married, but that's really none of my business ...

And what really amazes me is that you've seen the change alcohol and drugs can make in a person and still be willing to be around that ... you did state, I believe, that he's not the person you fell in love with when he drinks and that you're hoping he gets well so that you can have the man back that you fell in love with in the beginning ... I pray for just that ...

AA is a lifetime commitment for those of us never wishing for alcohol to take back control of our lives ... In fact, I must warn you that like the man who wrote our Big Book, some of us become so involved helping others and going to meetings, that our family life can suffer ... from us spending more time doing AA work than spending time at home ... But also know that most families would rather see less of us sober than more of us while drunk ...

Keep going to Al-Anon to learn more of just how you can be there for him ... you may not like some of the things they want you to do ... in fact I think they even follow the twelve steps that we do to improve their conscious contact with God to make themselves better persons in general ... one thing for sure, it can't hurt ... And one last thing ... I truly admire your commitment ... you come across as a woman of most any man's dream ... to have someone willing to endure great hardships and emotional turmoil as a cost of loving him ... if I weren't married(38years)(to the same woman), I'd be wanting to meet you myself ... What I'm trying to say is that you've convinced me of your sincerity ... May God grant you the strength to endure ...

God Bless and hang in there,
Pappy

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

jj wrote:
it would be a good thing to keep going to Alanon meetings and give him his space so you can take care of you. Sorry we cannot give you a list of what will happen or of what might happen. there are "Co dependent" 12 step meetings, too. each recovery is personal and something one has to want with all your heart. he may recover and then again, he may not. don't let his addiction rule your life. you need to be healthy and happy, you are in charge of you and he is in charge of him. Alanon can give you new ways of looking at things and remind you that your health is important and your emotional being needs your attention. let go..... so you can be you. hopefully he will get well and be honest with you.
big hugs from an alcoholic who is seeking recovery. i am happy, the happiest i have ever been. it is not easy, even though this is a simple program. i want my new sober life more than anything else in this world, so it is working for me. take care, jj/sheila

-- Edited by jj on Saturday 12th of November 2011 11:12:14 AM

Amen "JJ". Words to live by, for sure. I wish you the best, both of you.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

(((((Pappy))))) Thanks for the support and genuine understanding! It means so much to me to get the reassurance that I'm on the right track. :) It's been a difficult night for me as he texted me and said "I don't understand what happened" I know he's trying to get me to talk and go against the boundary I set. It's the manipulation and if I respond, then it will only cause a riff between us and I will hurt more. So I'm sticking to my guns and not responding. I made it clear that I wouldn't talk to him until we could have an honest conversation, after he decides to get himself better and enter treatment, and brings back to me the man I met... All the stuff I stated earlier in my posts. I guess I'm fruatrated because it provokes me to want to talk and give him te opportunity to open up, but i need him to be real. And I want him to make a serious effort with me. I set the boundary so I know if he's starting to want to make a change. Nothing changes of nothing changes, right? And if it all starts with me, then I have to stick to requiring the man I know to be present when we talk instead of the addict who will only forget everything we talked about. Sigh. Thanks for letting me vent. I am curious though... Why does he ask me things he knows the answer to (like why does he play dumb)? Or does he really have no clue what is goin on no matter how many times I say it??? I guess I'm wondering what goes through his head while he's in the midst of all this mess...

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks for the support Rich, JJ & Mr. David! I am actively working on me. It's easy to face myself and work on me as im resolved to not let his addictions kick my butt! ;) (((hugs))$

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

I think this is what we call denial. From chapter 3 More about Alcoholism (AA Big Book) "despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore non alcoholic." he is saying you don't really mean that, I'm not that bad (yet)he is minimising the harm he causes, and trying to arrange things so he can continue on his path. This is how the disease works. The stand you have taken is helping to break down that denial, it is a direct consequence of his behaviour. As others take a similar stand, like friends and employers, the denial is broken down further and eventually a point is reached where he must take notice. That point doesn't always arrive early - From our book "The idea that some how, some day he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistance of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death." Alcohol is a powerful foe and a drinking alcoholic can be extremely cunning and manipulative to get his own way.
I was exactly like this and many of us on this site had to lose almost everything hit (rock bottom) before we were willing to admit our problem. The people that stood up to us, that refused to tolerate out behaviour, they were the ones that helped us most in the long run. Those that covered up, lied for us etc (even with the best intentions) just kept us sick.

God bless,
Mike H.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 14th of November 2011 05:15:59 AM

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Fyne Spirit wrote:
he is saying you don't really mean that, I'm not that bad (yet)he is minimising the harm he causes, and trying to arrange things so he can continue on his path. This is how the disease works. The stand you have taken is helping to break down that denial, it is a direct consequence of his behaviour. As others take a similar stand, like friends and employers, the denial is broken down further and eventually a point is reached where he must take notice.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Monday 14th of November 2011 05:15:59 AM

(((((Mike)))))

Thanks so much! In the beginning when I did question things, he was awesome with excuses and cover stories. My fault was believing them. I'm glad that I finally tore off my blinders.

The part that is hard for me to see is that he has himself submerged just where he wants to be - in a job that "protects" him and surrounded by friends & family that just say "Oh that's just him. He wouldnt be working if he were that bad."

It breaks my heart and I'm working on accepting that his problem is not my problem, but in loving him - and knowing the true him - I know that deep down he does not want to be his father. He has freaked out at times where he thought he has hurt me (emotionally speaking) and even went as far as to say "I cant handle thinking I hurt you." Now I understand that is a reality smack for him that he cant face.

I'm strong enough to stand my ground and know that he may never come around. I'm realistic enough to also accept that I'm not the magic kitty (if you will - lol) and not powerful enough to make him wake up. However, I know that I have some pull as he cannot face me. He will avoid a face to face with me at all costs. I'd like to think it's because he is avoiding reality, but I'm sure it's more like he doesnt even realize its been so long since we have seen each other.

I'm torn at times... I so badly want to have an honest conversation with him, and be gentle, not berate him but love him, and I guess I just have to tough it out and have faith that if he begins to wake up, then hopefully he will come talk to me when he is ready to be real... Am I being unrealistic hoping that?

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey KeepingFaith, ... Fyne Spirit has made an excellent point ... and even better is that you seem to be digesting this rather well ... I too, was a 'working' alcoholic for a long time until my body just couldn't keep up with the demand ... the loss of a job was just one more item that broke down my denial, as Fyne Spirit referred to ... but I still had a long way to go before amitting I needed help ... my excuses got more creative and my wife was a good enabler ...

In the end, she went to a lawyer and started divorce papers that would end 35 years marriage(at that time) because, as she put it, she couldn't stand to sit back and watch me killing myself slowly and painfully with the alcohol ... she said she loved me too much to see it happen before her very own eyes ... She even said she'd leave me the house and all the stuff I had, that she just wanted out, period ...

As an alcoholic might think, my 1st thought was, great, I'll have the house to myself and I can drink without all the arguments that usually occured daily ... But when I analyzed a little further, I was out of work and unemployable and I would certainly lose everything on short order ... Only then did I decide I needed help once and for all ... (my physical health was so poor at the time, I could hardly walk to the 'mailbox' and back, ... only a hundred feet away!)

I am telling you all of this so as to prepare you for what might be in store for you ... and to help you handle the situations that may arise ... You need to be strong and be firm in your convictions and not back down a bit ... He needs to understand what he's losing by cutting you off from his world ... and if his love for you is of any consequence, then he'll be willing to do anything to keep you in his life, namely get help for his disease ...

Again, Love you and may God Bless You,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

*hugs!* Pappy & Fyne! You guys are helping me understand so much! I really appreciate the reassurance and the insights :). It also helps keep me strong and motivated to stand firm!! :)) I'm glad that you said something about your physical health Pappy. The last time I saw him in person was in July. His skin wad almost transparent, his eyes were all sunken in and black, and he couldn't sit for very long because his bum would go numb. I think that I need to understand how I'll know he has decided to get help... I'm guessing that he will come to me - assuming he still loves me as he wakes up. It's frustrating on my end to know that he goes to work, drinks at home, isolates himself, and goes out with the boys but can't even fathom that hes got a problem. I'm thinking he prob knows but just can't face it yet. Anyway, give me more. Sharing the things you guys did while active, your experiences, and moments of ah-ha, help me sooooo much! Love you & Thank You!!! *hugs*

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Sidenote: Yes! I totally wish he would read this :)

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Keeping Faith, ... You need to be prepared! ...

We haven't talked about you very much ... This whole situation with your BF may not turn out as you wish it to ... And it is my sincere desire that you become strong in spiritual matters affecting you personally ... It would serve you well to get VERY involved with Al-Anon so as to build a spiritual foundation that will help you through uncertain times, whether it be the situation with your BF or any other life challenging situation ...

You need not bare the weight of these difficult times alone ... when any of us have established a close 'conscious contact' with God, we are more at peace with things that happen that aren't what we want or expect to happen ... We have become able to turn these unhappy events over to our spiritual guide and not allow these things to control our thoughts, we've learned to let go and live just for today ... Now that I know you a little better, this is what I wish for you ... (to not allow what you don't expect, to control or rule your line of thinking ...)(because if you do, you'll only succeed in making yourself sick)

Even 'non-alcoholics' need spiritual guidance ... (Ha! ... some of them even more than we do ... LOL)

It's a learning process ... we have a saying "Spiritual progress, not perfection", is what we seek ...

God Bless You,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks Pappy! Truly "Letting go" is a very difficult action for me to honestly do. I'm understanding the concept of it and i still have the training wheels on in applying it (lol). In my 36 years on Earth, I've had quite a life experience of events that have taught me to understand that once through the bad and hurt, there is growth and deep appreciation for the good things in life and that we end up exactly where we should be (even though "why" may not be apparent at the time). And I do know that achieving sobriety is the hardest challenge he will ever have to face. I believe he can because I've seen how much he has accomplished in his life and the tenacious bastard he is! ;). It's difficult for me in seeing him avoid it-not able to face the challenge. It's his decision to make-whether or not he wants to take back his life. So consciously, I'm aware that I have to let go and leave it up to his spirit guides to help him find his way because I have this utter faith that I rely on. I guess that comes from the good that came out of all the bad things I've lived through. What I struggle with at the moment is catching my heart up to my brain. I guess I feel that if I let go I'm letting go of loving him and I don't want to stop loving him. So I'm beginning to learn how to love him differently-by trying to learn that I need to love him and trust in what we have enough to let him go so he can have the space and room to grow without placing extra stress on him by being present in his life. So he can stretch his arms out fully when he finally wakes up. As for me, you are right. I haven't shared much about myself. I am doing the things I need to do for myself and my kid. I have a boy whose just turned 13! :) I have much to be happy for and grateful for all that I have. At the moment, I am seeking another job which is in the same industry, but a different location as I'd like to be living near the beach by the time my son is in HS. My life is otherwise good, or in motion if you will, as this hasn't taken me off my game. But where I struggle is with feeling sad about losing my best friend to this disease at the moment and accepting that he may never return. I just feel so blah without him. I miss his kisses. I miss the way we would laugh and joke and play. I miss his touch and our talks. I miss my best friend. And I've missed these things in him for a year now. And the solice that I have is now understanding why it changed, knowing I didn't cause it, understanding I can't control it and learning I can't cure it. But interestingly, I also understand I can make it worse if I add to it. Thus why Im learning all I can. And I'm already grateful to be in this situation, as I've realized how lucky I am to be growing into a better, more aware mom. I believe that no matter how bad things are, it could always be worse. And how much more difficult it would be if I had to learn this experience by watching my son go through it and trying to learn. So as much as I can't crystal ball the future, Im resolved to have faith that in the end, if he gets better, we can share a beautiful life and if we can get through this, we will make it through anything. But my new, dear friend, I promise I will continue to learn and grow, and take care of me and my boy. And please know I'm so grateful for your time and words, because they help me reach deeper into my soul and redirect my focus to me. :) *big hugs*

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey KF, ... Thanks for your reply ... I feel better knowing your outlook on this 'life changing' situation ... You sound like a pretty tough cookie to me ... Hope so, cause what your about to go through with your son over the next few years, you'll need all the patience and wisdom you can muster ...Ha! :) ... If your BF doesn't drive you nuts, your son may very well tip the scales ... (I have two sons ... 1 is 31 tomorrow and the other is 37) .... The teenage years are the hardest to deal with ... and you may have thought adolescents and puberty were tough, baby you ain't seen nothin' yet ...
One day they love you and the very next day they hate you and you haven't a clue as to what happened ... trust me you WILL go thru this ...

Hang in there Babe, love Ya and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Ha! You ain't joking!! :) I am bracing for it for sure! I am so excited and freaked about what this boy will put me through! Lol!!! He's a good kid and we are close, bit he's a little dude and surely turning into a dude ;) Right now, I work in a casino. And I'm trying to get into another one. The place I'm in is stinky now, money isn't there anymore because theres no customers. So time to move on! Apparently I really like making money. Right now, each night I come in here, it's so dead and I'm bored my 8 hour shift and leaving with very little cash :( So my new goal is to get in somewhere I can hustle and bring home the bacon baby! Lol!! Ugh time to get back to the floor. Thanks for the warning!! I'll be bracing with a smile, cause at the end of the day, it's all good... Right? *hugs*

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Hi KF, it's been great taking part in this thread and I can see from your convesation with Pappy that you are secure in yurself and have your priorities clear. My son just had his 20th birthday by the way and while there were a few nervous moments he seems to have come through adolesence pretty well and I am very proud of him.

So now we could turn our minds to what might be done for your man. We have discussed our powerlessness in your situation and it is accepted that we can't force any changes on him. But you know success is where opportunity and preparedness meet. Most alcoholics I know have mentioned there have been more than one occasion where they had the opportunity to get sober, or at least spells where they really wanted to give up but failed to do so. I have heard these moments referred to as WOW, a window of opportunity and willingness. There is a chance that a wow or two might occur in your presence it might be as well to be prepared for it.

Briefly such a moment typically happens immediately after some particularly disastrous episode. The alcoholic is full of remorse and is often willing to accept help if it is offered in the right way. What I would suggest is that you call AA or even attend an open meeting or two and try to make contact with a recovered alcoholic of some sobriety who is active in 12 step work. While you are there also purchase a copy of the book Alcoholics Anonymous and, perhaps one or two brochures, and take that home to read. In particular read chapter 7 Working with Others and chapter 8 To Wives. From these you will see how a wife or partner can work with an AA sponsor to carry the message when a WOW presents it self. Brochures can be left where your man might find them and he will probably read them even if he keeps quiet about it. In all this it is important to be calm, not angry, try not to raise the subject, be patient and loving and keep in mind that your man is not him self, he is sick. If and when the window of opportunity is opened, you can ask him if he really wants to quit and if he is willing to go to any lengths to do so. If he says yes, you can show him the book and tell him what you have learned about alcoholism. Tell him you know someone who has had a similar problem and found a way to stop drinking and ask your man if he would like to see them. If he is ready he might say yes and you can bring your AA sponsor into the picture. If he is not ready, just leave him be. We don't want to spoil a later opportunity.

That's a brief summary of how you might be prepared to help your BF should an opportunity arise. There is much more useful information in the book. There are no gurantees, but by preparing in this way you can improve his chances considerably.

God bless,
Mike H.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Excellent Mike, ... KF, what Mike just said makes all the sense in the world ... (wish I'd have put it that way) ... great stuff Mike, thanks for helping me to see a more 'in depth' way to approach the situation ... I'll store that away for another opportunity to help others...

Love Ya'll and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Hey Pappy! Happy belated Bday to your 31 year old son! I'm the youngest of 5 and my siblings are when I turn 40 as they are all 8-14 years older than I am. hehe ;) Gotta love it while you can, right?

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughts and preparations! I'm happy to learn and I really look forward to soaking in as much as I can.

Also, it has been tremendously helpful keeping me in positive, forward thinking instead of dwelling in sadness and anger.

Will be seeking a couple meetings tomorrow and excited for the opportunity to earn more growth... it sure does feel good :)

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Oh Fyne Mike :) *big hugs*

Thank you soooooo much for listening (reading lol) and hearing me :) It made me feel, accomplished, in a sense... like I am growing and getting to a new step. And I hope I can express to you just how greatful I am to be embraced by you and Pappy (and the others who have offered their support) because it makes me feel so warm and human.

I am so very eager to prepare! I think I have lost a few WOW moments with him while I had my blinders on :( But if he does decide to ask for help, I would hate to miss the opportunity to really offer him positive support and direction. I am going to an open AA meeting tomorrow (as it is my day off) and will purchase the book. I'm so excited to learn more and I know it will help me understand more.

Today was a bad day for me, or maybe I should clarify and say "sad" day... So I cried and let it out, then re-read the open letter from an alcoholic and let that hold my heart so I could reground myself and redirect my thinking. Some days are better than others and today I just missed him and had to force myself to do other things so I didn't dwell in the past. I finally got some sleep this afternoon. Went to my kids teacher conference which my ex bailed out on going to. And tonight has been much better.

When I read your last post, it filled me with a major "Yes!" moment - lol! And I am really truly excited to learn. I am a little anxious though. I was thinking, and let me know what you think, if after I learn this next part (preparedness) if I write a letter from my heart and post it up here (in a different thread with tags) just in case he were to peek in as a guest? I find that I am at times caught in does he feel I abandoned him or is he so numb and wasted that he doesnt even realize I've gone? He tends to assume that I've written him off because I'm letting him have space he asked for. That's what was different in my setting definitive boundaries. They were clear enough for him to understand, but I'm not sure if he'll accept it or just dismiss it to avoid feeling hurt.

I dunno...maybe I'm jumping the gun and just should refocus on learning how to be prepared first, get a sponser from AA and rethink that thought then. lol Did I just answer my own question? Damn you're good! haha :) Yes, I should slow down and go one step at a time. Learn it. Understand it. Believe it. Then I can apply it. Once I am equipped enough to apply it, then I can think of how to expand it.

I'm trying to really learn how to slow down and remember to live in today. I've had some life experiences that have taught me all too well that tomorrow may not come. One of them was my kid and I getting hit by a drunk driver in my car when we were sitting parked in front of our house. There's other things-medically related- which all turned out to be fine (kind of the I so dont fit in the "norm" box that it worked out in my favor lol), but I believe these things trigger me to jump the gun, so to speak, when I feel anxious. I've been learning here, to take it one day at a time and slow down to actually enjoy living in the moment.

Anyway, random tangent there... but I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, just how much I admire your service here and how fortunate I feel that you've taken me under your wing :)

*big big hugs*

~Nicole

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Thanks Nicole. Just remember, patience and preparation are the watch words. Also, at the meeting it would be best to approach women members initially. They will hopefully be able to introduce you to a suitable and trustworthy male member to work with you on your ABF. You might find you have to ask around a bit to find someone who knows how to work in the way described in chapter 7. A lot of the time these days you might be told to just bring him to a meeting, which we know is easier said than done. Don't accept that, keep looking for someone who will work with you. Keep us posted.

And big big hugs to you too!
God bless,
Mike H.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

That's great to know Mike :) Thanks! I've been pulling patience out of reserved the last 2 days and in the quiet times (when it hardest for me) I've been redirecting my thoughts to looking forward to becoming prepared. I know that if I feel down, as I do at the moment, I wouldn't be of any service. And I'm trying to see what each day is like for him. Waking up, feeling like hell, having to work 12 hours sober, only to get home and crash. Yet somewhere he has the resolve to stay away from me and even though right now I know it is for the best, it still hurts so much. So this is where I pull the patience emergency cord! Lol Anyway, I'm excited to atten tonight and at least get the book. I will surly be poking you with questions if you don't mind :). But I'm glad you mentioned to start with the ladies and keep looking for the right sponsor. :) At least it feels good to know I font have to be lost and I can get to a point where I could offer support if/when he needs it. I know ultimately it is all up to him, I just don't feel as if I can give up on him, ya know? Even though he doesn't love himself right now, I can't expect him to love me, but i love myself and I still love him... Oh I wish Santa would bring him back to me... Awake :) *hugs* Nicole

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole,
How did it go at the meeting?
Mike.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Hey Mike! The meeting went very well. I spoke with a lady, who seemed to shrug me off once she realized I wasnt there for my alcoholism. Another man asked me where he knew me from, and was pretty much disinterested in my mans sitch. Lastly, the gentleman that ran the meeting gave me a hug and appreciated support of the program, my enthusiasm, and welcomed me :) and there was another man who spoke with me curious as he thought I was a student. (yes it was an open meeting for men & women). He spent the most time with me and was very impressed with my intent to find deeper understanding and growth. What amazed me about the actual meeting, was listening and hearing all that spoke and shared, I heard a little bit of what my guy had shared with me in each story from everyone that spoke. It was very profound to me and helped me to feel a more genuine compassion for his turmoil. Basically, I sat there, eyes widening, hopeful and realized that he would love it if he gave it a chance. What suprised me most of all was what *I* got out of it! And just how fortunate I am. I'm learning so much about me and the alcoholism I grew up around and is still lingering around me. And as I listened, I questioned my own status... I'll share more about that later (don't want to tangent too far - lol). But I realized I have so much more to learn. I began reading chapter 7 in the book, bit about halfway through, I stopped and decided to go to the beginning. :) I'm happy to learn... To he prepared-for either him or my son as he grows up, and for my own growth and healing. It ha been a very difficult week and I wanted to get to more meetings (both AA and Al-Anon) but since my son had half days all week, I got only 3 hrs of sleep a day and it is finally my day off! Yey!! :) So hopefully I will be able to attend a couple this week. And find some more enlightenment. My guy is confused as to an issue we had before I termed it. I don't feel right ignoring him, so I responded to show some support and reaffirm that what we had can't exist until he takes care of himself. Then he shuts down an goes silent. I think that was the lesson I got at the meeting, truly hearing story after story helped me to see that its the disease and don't take it personal. I'm still workin on that. Anyway, I hope you had a nice week! If it's cool with you, I'd like to share more. Just didn't want to inundate you :)- hehe Talk soon & hugs!! Nicole

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Hi Nicole,
Thanks I have had a great week made all the better by hearing from you. It's great the meeting went well, in fact it sounds like it couldn't have gone much better. Now you have the book to read, you have a mine of useful information and with the insight you are gaining you will soon be in the best possible position to help your man. Your approach to make contact with someone who you can work with to prepare for the Wow didn't quite come off as we would have hoped, but keep looking. Not all members these days are that familiar with chapter 7 and often the newcomers first contact with AA is when he turns up at a meeting. I would suggest sticking with the practice of asking a female member to introduce you to a suitable male for you to work with. It's really only a matter of having one or two contacts who know you and your situation, that will be willing to come a talk to your BF when the opportunity crops up. I found the one on one discussion I had with another alcoholic (before going to a meeting) really gave me the confidence I was doing the right thing. Having someone I knew who took me to the first few meetings did a great deal to relieve my anxiety at meeting all these new people. I look forward to hearing more Nicole, as I am sure do all the others here. Great work, you have accomplished a lot in a short time!
God bless,
Mike H.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Nicole, ...

I also am following your efforts and am also grateful that you've accomplished a lot already ... Mike H.'s suggestions make a lot of sense to me and I am learning a lot from him too ...

I know that the future meetings that you attend will comfort those who may be giving you the 'cold shoulder' now ... I generally have observed that most elder members are very cautious when it comes to 'non-alcohlics' coming to meetings to join a group of people who wish to remain anonymous ... and who also wish that what they say there, remains there and is not for spreading outside the rooms ... They just aren't sure of your real motives at first ... but the more they see you and hear of your concerns for your BF, then the more they will be willing to assist you ... as you know, you'll be welcome at 'open meetings' and discouraged from attending 'closed' meetings (alcoholics only)...

We place great value in our 12th Tradition: Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities. ... (note: Our Traditions are listed in the back of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous)

And just keep in mind that a lot of members are skiddish of people coming to our meetings that aren't personally suffering from alcoholism ... But like Mike said, you should be able to find someone who will mentor you if you approach them in a patience, student-like way ...

Love you and good luck ...
God Bless,
Pappy

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Friday 25th of November 2011 08:44:11 AM

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks Mike & Pappy! *hugs hugs hugs*!!!

I am so deeply grateful for your support and encouragement :)

I have realized that I need to work on my patience and powerlessness. I find myself beginning to "stop" myself from constant worrying and angst, or prevent myself from trying to find a way to reach him.

In attending the meeting, I realized that there is much to learn and it will do me a world of good. And reading this golden book is truly enlightening and I feel as if I am about to embark on a wonderful spiritual journey myself.

When I first learned he was having an addiction to Ambien (which was in July) I was still ignorant as to what alcoholism is. On break one night at work, I was sitting reading "How to Get Them Sober" and a guy I work with came over and asked what I was reading. I showed him and he said "How long has he been in AA?" I said "He's not." Then he asked if I was in Al-Anon and I wasn't yet. Then he said "You need to go to Al-Anon and he needs to get in to AA." I explained what had happened and where we were. He told me his story and how he lost everything before he found his way to AA. He encouraged me to take care of myself and remember that I cant fix him. About once a week/week and a half, he'd check in on me and gently ask how I was doing and point out that I looked "good" on the nights that I was feeling better. In our most recent chat (during this week) he said "I'm more than happy to meet with and talk to your boy if he decides he wants help." I thanked him and feel that he may be a good fit for my guy (personality wise). I thought "Wow! Fate is intervening. How ironic? Mike has just helped me to continue my journey and here it is." Then I thought "That's not irony. It's because I believed in my HP and gave control over to the universe. And here I am, right where I should be."

If I may step back a moment, in July (the last time I saw my man) f2f, we had an "oops" moment which resulted in a pregnancy. When I set my boundaries, I let him know that. He first said "what does that mean?" to which I did not respond. A couple weeks later said "guess you're not going to elaborate on that?" And now said "Does that mean you are? Were? Why does it have to be so cryptic? Just tell me what is going on??" *Note: all this is by texting me - no phone call - no face to face.

My reply to him was this: "I have tried. Where have you been the last 4 months? You broke every date we had. Never called back. Just abandoned me & betrayed me.

I'd love to talk to you, but only when you are sober. Because we should have an honest conversation.

*i called him but he did not answer*

I'm not being cryptic. I've told you over and over that we needed to talk. I tried and tried. Even now, where are you??? Not present.

I can't open up to you when you won't try.

The point is, this deserves no less than a face to face conversation. You really think a text is appropriate? It isn't at all :(

Who is this??? I'd expect this kind of behavior from (inserted my ex-husbands name who he dispises because of how badly he treated me)... NOT YOU

Lastly, you are the one who has been silent. You say one thing but dont act on it. Yx0=0. Nothing changes if nothing changes. & I believed you when you said you loved me."

The next night which was the 24th, I wrote him again. I felt bad and was upset with myself for responding in the first place. So I tried to be more gentle and explain my reason for my boundaries, which I'm not sure he even cares about.

I wrote: "I genuinely don't understand why you wont let us talk. Dont you remember anything about me???

Hasn't it occurred to you how difficult all this has been on me???

In May, when we had our awesome treadmill night you said you "had enough" and stated: "I have this mountain of stress to get through and it's going to be hard as hell, but I have to do it so that I can get to you so that we CAN be together. You are the goal I'm working for."

Then i further timelined. I figured if he doesn't remember the past 4 months, then he has no idea why I'm so hurt and shut. I went on to say:

"July was the last time you saw me. The night you told me about the Ambien.

So as I was trying to understand Ambien addiction, I realized that Ambien aren't tiny round white pills. Those are Oxi :(

So I went to seek information (began seeing an addictions counselor) to get my head straight and truly understand what you were going through.

And in learning, I began to understand the alcoholism.

At the same time, I, all of a sudden, couldn't smoke. Made me sick. I could smell like and dog. I knew. Then I was late.

That is why I kept trying to get you to meet me because I wanted to have a heart to heart.

But you kept blowing me off :(

And so I continued to try and learn so I could manage me and support you (not make it worse as I had been) and went on to al-anon and AA.

The hardest part of all this is that you wont talk to me. You refuse to let yourself open up and it makes me feel like I never mattered. :(

All I desperately wanted to hear was that you are trying to get yourself well.

And that is still all I want to hear.

But until you take care of yourself, what we had cannot exist.

The painkillers kill us because it has made you different. Angry, cold, uncaring, isolated, bi-polar, and cruel.

Those behaviors aren't the true you.

I had to tell you so I could move forward. I was stuck.

I am frustrated that you aren't able to communicate with me. That is what brought us so close. The intimacy we had...

and I'll never know if it was true unless you show me that you meant is when you said that I was your love"

**************

Sorry that was so long, but I wanted to share it in detail so you guys can help me. Even if I was totally wrong and/or way out of line, please critique!

He hasn't responded. I am not expecting him to. I didn't want to answer his question directly, because that would remove his consequence. The reality I want him to understand (which I left in a voice message to him when I set my boundaries) is that it doesn't matter if I am or if I lost the baby. The point is that we made a baby and he missed finding out about it because he was caring about whatever instead of me/us. And it doesn't matter because as long as he is drinking and drugging, and more importantly not getting any help, then what good could he do me? None.

So I'm sure it is making him way uncomfortable and/or maybe angry. His silence is to "punish" me as in to make me feel scared as if I lost him. But I've grown past that ploy now that my blinders to his addictions are off.

I'm sincerely not trying to be cruel to him. I just want him to feel again. Even if it's a crisis I provoked. And i decided to plop it in his lap, because if I worry about sending him over the edge, then I'm only preventing him from another crisis and thus enablling his irresponsibility, right?

Anyway, that is also why it was a difficult week for me. The only part of my communication with him that astounds me is that he NEVER denies it when I talk about his alcoholism or med addictions. Not that he owns it either, but I'm somewhat hopeful that he hasn't said "you don't know what you're talking about or i dont have a problem". I just wish he would talk to me.

So to tangent a little more. Just to give you guys some further insight as to me, I went through a major tragedy when I was a child. I repressed the experience and it came flooding back to me when my son was entering Kindergarten. Anyway, in learning what I am from AA, the book, and here, I realized how fortunate I was. It's profound for me to look back in reflection of my life and the paths I took. When I was 6, I was molested by a janitor in my elementary school. I went to Catholic school for elementary. He had told me that because he worked in God's school, that God would be very angry with me if I didn't do as I was told and that God would surely punish me if I told our secret. There were other things that he said to ensure my fears. And I projected myself, somewhere else (what I can as an adult describe as an astral projection) to get myself mentally/emotionally away even though I couldn't physically run. As I grew into adolescence, and began to develop hormonally, I felt plagued by guilt. Feeling tainted and dirty. That school was teaching me to be abstinant and that being God's way, but God allowed this man the right to harm me. The man eventually got arrested for molesting children in his neighborhood and the school covered it up by stating that he "never molested any children here" which I knew to be a lie. Those were the words spoken from our Priests and Nuns. Ironically, our Monseignor was also sent out of school and I can attest that he aiding (watching but not participating) in the molestation of these kids as well.

Anyway, it was a definite struggle for me to learn as I grew and develop what my understanding of God/HP was. I didnt reject the idea of "God" but developed my own understanding of what I perceive to be my HP. I went to a new school for 7th grade which was a quaker school and found inspired by Meeting there. I began to grow spiritually. I'd take out books in the library on astrology, numerology, astral dreaming, meditation and devled into poetic interpretration. I learned to read tarot cards in 8th grade and continued on my spiritual path. I began my little rituals and in all of that really developed my sense of inner being.

I share this with you now because at 36, I can look back and realize just how fortunate I was to be open enough to be lead by my spirit guides in my innocence. I was constantly soul searching and actively working to be honest with myself. And the things I've experienced between then and now, have been difficult and even quite depressing. But I've struggled through it all and avoided turning that "escape call" into addictions that would have been harder to let go of.

I'm quitting smoking at the moment. I used to be a hippie chick before I had my son. And I was never a big fan of drinking because I never liked how it made me or my friends/family act/feel.

And one last little twist. I happen to be allergic to Lettuce. It's a very rare allergy, however I am. I can smell it when it is cut or cooked and I get instantly ill. Interestingly, the plant name for lettuce is L. Sativa. And I'm so curious after reading the Doctor's Opinion and looking at alcohol as an allergy, if there is a correlation between L. Sativa and Cannibis Sativa??? And what is it that chemically tweaks our bodies to the degree of dependency. I know that my guy, deep down, is terrified by the thought of giving up drinking. He began when he was 12. His father was an alcoholic and died from an enlarged heart as a result of his alcoholism. I know that he is so insane at the moment that he can't even begin to process just how out of control his life is in reality. And his inability to and lack of desire to talk to me is paramount as to how bad a state he is in.

But in reading this material, I was impressed with something that Mike, you had mentioned in your post about meds. It is in the Doctor's Opinion (which I just read last night) pg xxix "Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it is often not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggegate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach."

So since I am so spiritually inclined, I'm very curious as to what your thoughts/feelings are about it :) I'd love to hear!

Hugs & Love

Nicole

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole, ...

Okay, ... I think I need to read this again tomorrow A.M. ... Too much info for me to absorb at the moment ... and you've got several topics here ... and some of your sharing seems to me, might be better handled by communicating with a woman ... Mike and I are a couple of old farts that have learned to stay sober, and are enjoying life now ... and we help others when and where we can ... Speaking for myself, I'm not sure I totally understand all that's going on and I am a little hesitant now to recommend a direction for you ...

I do think you've come a long way in understanding what's going on with your BF ... and I think we're starting to get into other life problems and situations that aren't directly related to alcohol, which is where my area of experience lies ... But I will try to sum it up as I see it:

1) Your BF, from all appearances, needs to go to a Rehab center to detox with a doctor's care ...

2) He needs AA and only he can make that decision ...

3) Your TOP priority right now is doing what's right for your unborn child ...
(stop playing games with your Bf ... talk, text, write a letter to him, but let him know that he has a few months to decide if he wants to be a part of your life and the baby's life or not ... this gives him time to get his act together, but he should know that you cannot possibly look after a newborn and him at the same time)

4) If your BF hasn't taken steps to get help by the time your baby is born ... then you need to move on ... (BF needs to know he'll never see his baby unless he's sober)

5) Spirituality ... I HIGHLY recommend you read a book by William P. Young, called 'The Shack' ... This book gave me a concept of God that made working the AA steps possible for me ... (the 1st half of the book is a little depressing, but WOW, the second half may 'BLOW' you away ... and help straighten out some of the old religious mess you're carrying around ...)

6) Meds? ... Yep, they are necessary for certain people for a variety of reasons ... most are needed only temporarily, in my opinion ... but always with a doctor's advice ...

Ok, ya got me, I didn't wait til A.M. ... but I did lose one of my two brain cells I had remaining, today ... and dog gone-it ... the other one just ran off to find the first one ...
So good night and God Bless,
Pappy

-- Edited by Pythonpappy on Sunday 27th of November 2011 05:07:48 PM

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks Pappy! :) Your response is a wonderful example of humanity - humble and grounding, which I appreciate very much. I apologize if my last post was a bit too much. It wasn't my intention to cause discomfort. I figured there are many that read this thread and even if they don't reply, may find some solace in a shared experience. The latter isssues I opened up about were all things in my past I have dealt with and have found that, for me, this process and fellowship I witness and am being embraced by, has inspired an amazing new and deeper healing than I had even been aware I needed. :) I am very excited to get the book "The Shack" and develop a true and whole understanding of God in a deeper more secure sense. At the moment, I've been reliant upon philosophies that i developed in my teenage years and now feel ready to cast away fear/apprehension to allow myself the room and openness to grow. As far as sharing my detailed text message responses with my BF. It was just a waste :( We can just wash it away. I had a terrible experience this weekend. I went to meet a friend and her husband at the casino (a different one than I work at) which is one among many. I parked and as we began to walk, I see my BFs car parked 2 spots over. He was supposed to be working this weekend and seeing he was there filled me with such jealousy and resentment. I felt immediately sick :(. All I thought was how could he be here?! Obviously he can't accept or doesn't care that we made a baby. And instead of being, at the very least human to me, he is here! To party? Is he with someone? I felt horrible and scared. So I searched for him, couldn't find him. Then wrote him and told him I was there and wanted him to meet me. He said he was with a bunch of his guys friends at a gentlemans club. :( (this is something he wasn't into doing before his disease progressed). Anyway, his messages were manipulative with the attitude of "I'm partying! Whats wrong with that?" So I told him that if he had loved me at all, he would do whatever necessary to show me and that this was hurtful and unacceptable treatment to the woman he claimed to love and got pregnant. So I left and met my friends elsewhere for dinner. Before we left i had my BB in my car and left it on his windshield. I havent heard from him. I will not respond to him if I do. I will only respond if he asks for help or comes to me when he reaches step 8. For the first time, I'm sad to say, I feel he is hopeless. Someone said to me that that's a good thing because it means he's getting closer to his bottom. I dunno. I know that I feel awful and beaten. And I came to see that maybe this was the universe smacking me in the face to learn *I have to LET GO*... I guess it blows my mind that he has no morality or care left in him. Or is it that he is just so drowned in the drugs and beer that he is showing how insane he has become? Anyway, I see now, wearing the abrasions of this reality, that I am, truly, powerless. Still so grateful to be here and know I am not as alone as I feel. Hugs and love, Nicole

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

And I guess I'm really wondering if his behavior is typical of an alcoholic/drug addict or is he just a jerk?

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I've been following this. It's pretty heavy duty stuff and it breaks my friggen heart. I can imagine what you are going through because I think I've been on his end of the deal....Minus the kid. Alcohol is a nasty beast and it had it's claws in me bad. I guess I was at a point that I didnt care about anybody...Including family. I hurt a lot of people I loved. Some were there when I got help. And some were not. I guess my advice to you would be to take care of yourself and the child. I don't know what God has in store for you two. But I'll pray for you that it's the best thing that can happen. That's all you can do. The wife is gone for me. I chose alcohol over her. The last girl I was going out with I really loved. She was happy I got help...But she's gone too. I'm at a position in life where I have to start over. No hurry for any relationships for me. I have to get my life together. Sounds like this guy hasn't got to that point yet. Stay strong for yourself and your child.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey KF, ...

Alcoholism respects no 'one type' of person ... your BF may very well be a jerk ... but if your observations are accurate, then I'd call him more of an a**hole than anything else ...

Only you can make the decision whether he's worth waiting for or not ... he may be headed for a bottom he'll never climb out of ... or he may take the BB you left for him and turn his life around ... Whether you keep the door 'open' for him or whether you 'close' it, is entirely up to you ... Although I would be more comfortable with my decisions if I were in close contact with God ... And if you learn nothing else out of our little communications here, it's that spirituality is the key to peace and serenity in anyone's life ... in AA we learn to 'key in' on this very fact ... it's what makes AA successful ....

Again, take care and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Stepchild wrote:
I'm at a position in life where I have to start over. No hurry for any relationships for me. I have to get my life together. Sounds like this guy hasn't got to that point yet. Stay strong for yourself and your child.

Thanks Stepchild :) Sharing your experience gives me much comfort and a realness that I cannot fully empathize with being non-alcoholic. I missed so many hints he gave me along the way and now that I see him completely heartless, dysfunctional & insane, it breaks my heart. I so badly hope that he comes to a point where he too WANTS to start over. And you reminded me that his illness is in full force and he isn't ready. It does have to be in his time. And the best I can pray for is that he does come to wanting to stop and seeking help. Pappy- thank you! :) I agree he is behaving like a total a-hole! But I shouldn't expect him to be a kind or loving creature while he is in a downward spiral, huh? Lol Anyway, you guys helped me to remember that I should and need to embrace this process. And I realized that maybe I was looking at the whole situation wrong (in freaking out seeing his car there). Maybe that was my HP providing the opportunity for me to leave the book. I just got it last Saturday, and 6 days later, in such a random, next to zero chance park 2 spots over... I wouldn't have gifted it to him randomly like that. I'd probably have waited for an invited opportunity (from him)... But I got the invited opportunity from my HP. Maybe it was his HP? ;) regardless it was a force greater than either of us that was clearly saying right place, maybe one day I'll find out it was the right time too... Anyway, I do get so much out of this and hope you all realize just how much you are all helping me through the roughest thing I've ever experienced. Oh and I got "The Shack" and another BB today Pappy! :) Hugs & much love! Nicole Oh! I got the b

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

But I shouldn't expect him to be a kind or loving creature while he is in a downward spiral, huh?
Maybe that was my HP providing the opportunity for me to leave the book.
But I got the invited opportunity from my HP. Maybe it was his HP? ;) regardless it was a force greater than either of us that was clearly saying right place, maybe one day I'll find out it was the right time too...
Anyway, I do get so much out of this and hope you all realize just how much you are all helping me through the roughest thing I've ever experienced. Oh and I got "The Shack" and another BB today Pappy! :) Hugs & much love! Nicole Oh!

Hey Nicole, ...

You are correct in having NO expectations of him while the alcohol is doing all his thinking for him ... In fact, we should always be careful in having expectations for anyone we truly care about because our expectations will usually always lead us to being let down because things didn't turn out like we wanted them to ... It is okay and good to have hope, but not expectations ...

I think you're probably right about the opportunity to leave a BB on his car ... God does work in mysterious ways ... He was always there for me, but I just didn't know it at the time ... (keep in mind we are not a religious group at all, but we are a spiritual group who have been led back to sanity through God's grace) ... I just hope your BF can see through the fog enough to see a solution to his problem laying right in front of him ...

I am so happy to hear you got 'The Shack' ... As a reminder, the first half of the story is depressing but leads you to life answers in the second half ... I'm trying not to build it up too much, but it was 'life changing' for me and many that I know ... OH, if you are the least bit emotional, have a box of tissues nearby ... (it's a fairly quick read ... and very powerful)

Love you and God Bless,

Pappy

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Somebody gave me the big book about 10 years ago. I threw it out. I wasn't ready...I hadn't screwed up my life enough. Well I finished the job with a bang. God...The shit that I put myself through to get here. But I got here and that's all that counts. I'll pray for both of you. You sound like a nice lady...Just remember...The guy is sick and you are not to blame...for any of it. I have 5 months without a drink or drug yesterday...That's a miracle for me.

-- Edited by Stepchild on Monday 28th of November 2011 05:43:50 AM

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Pappy, I hadn't heard of the Shack, sounds like a good read, I will try to get a copy.

God bless.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks guys! :) hugs!!! I can say, I was so beaten by this last event that it left me feeling truly powerless. I feel an odd comfort in that at the moment. Odd in the sense that it is unfamiliar to me. I feel confused still about my recent communications with him. He continues to ask where all this is coming from and what happened - as if he has no idea what is going on. I've explained things so many times... Nicely, lovingly, point blank, short & sweet, detailed... Whatever way I could. And he still asks what happened and where it all came from. Yet won't deny it when I say I dislike the way his alcoholism & drugs make him behave. Does he really forget everything??? Can't he process that I'm obviously upset? Or is that the denial taking over to avoid reality??? Mike--Thank you for trying to help me get to preparedness. Had I not taken that step, I wouldn't have gotten the BB. Also, when you said to leave the brochures around so he could read them if he wants, that gave me the thought (which I probably wouldn't have thought to do) to leave the book on his car. Hugs & love to all! Nicole

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

KeepingFaith wrote:
Yet won't deny it when I say I dislike the way his alcoholism & drugs make him behave.
Does he really forget everything???
Can't he process that I'm obviously upset? Or is that the denial taking over to avoid reality???
Nicole

Hey Nicole, ...

By him not denying he has a problem probably means he's thinking that he might have a problem ... this is probably a good thing ... at least you're continually bringing it up and making him think about it ...

Depending on the level of drugs and alcohol in his system, yes, it's very likely he can't remember the events or situations he was in the day or week before ... pg. 24 BB ... (also read pg.21 about the 'real' alcoholic) ... and just so you know, blackouts are very common among those of us who drank/drink heavily ... entire blocks of time where we continued to function in some fashion, then have absolutely 'no memory' 'what-so-ever' of what we did or said or how we got to the bed we find ourselves in or many other situations like this ... (I once was driving from Nashville to Atl. and woke up in handcuffs in the back of a police car ... and I could not, with all the effort I could muster, remember how I got there) ... (that's just one example, there are many more)

Your BF can probably process that you're upset, though he probably doesn't have the capacity to understand ... He's probably using your attitude toward him to further escape from reality ... He can't face it ... I have a friend on this web site that's going through the same thing with his GF ... and it can be the most 'gut wrenching' thing to go through in life ... to see someone you love destroy themselves and not be able to fix them, can tear you apart if you let it ... You do your best, accept the results, and turn it over to God to determine their future ... but don't stop loving them just because the disease is controlling them for now ... be there at least from a distance to step in and support them should they need your help ... don't completely turn your back on them ... God never did that for any of us, He waited patiently for us to see the Truth ... (unfortunately some of us die never waking up to this fact)(both alcoholics and non-alcoholics)

Hopefully, your BF and my friend's GF will someday soon, realize the acronym for S.O.B.E.R. is true ... Son Of a Bitch Everything's Real ... that they cannot keep living in a fantasy world ...

Take Care and God Bless,

Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

"Hopefully, your BF and my friend's GF will someday soon, realize the acronym for S.O.B.E.R. is true ... Son Of a Bitch Everything's Real ... that they cannot keep living in a fantasy world ..." -Pappy *************************************************************** Wow!! Pappy, I love that!! The way you stated that he may see I am upset, but may not be able to comprehent it, was insightful, very grounding and reminding :) And I also deeply appreciate the reminder that he is human, and I don't have to turn my back on him ever... Just to remain pure in my love for him and be true to that love by giving him the time and room he needs to grow. ****** I feel as if I've gone through a transcendence from this weekend's lesson. I realize that I kept inserting myself in his disease. And I had no business to do so. It was definitely more than just dumb luck that I parked 2 spots away from his car. I was given the opportunity to share something amazing with him. I almost missed it for my own selfish needs/wants (in that I so badly wanted to see him face to face so o could try and read him). And I see just how wrong that would have been. That fate intervened and we did not meet face to face. I'm sure it would have only crushed me more to see him drunk and high and void of the soul I love. So I embraced my opportunity to grow and change. I can see now that my being present in that situation was to pass on the gift I have been receiving-especially from you and Mike and now Stepchild too! :). He and I had similar religious upbringings/questions of God. And I have to admit, I had no idea what AA or Al-anon was truly about before I found my way to them. I was reluctant at first. I simply didn't know how it could help. And as my life became unmanagable and I was rapidly falling deep into depression, I knew I had to at least see why everyone kept saying "you need to go to Al-anon." I would be a total mess if I hadnt taken that first step. And i know now, just hpw fortunate i really am! I know that my man is (hoping maybe now *was*) reluctant to see what AA had to offer because he thought it was all super religious and that was very difficult for him to digest. I realized something very powerful happened... That was set in motion by my HP and I delivered the message. If I was giving this a try-dipped my toe in and now enjoying wading in the water, then maybe, just maybe, he won't be so afraid to dip his toe in and see just how the water feels! Basically, if it was uber-religious/biblical only aka reminding of catholic school all over again, neither he nor myself would've given it a chance. But being that I left the book for him, is a huge message! And I pray he kept it (and didnt throw it) and will find himself peeking through the pages one of these days! Thanks again!! Love & hugs! Nicole

-- Edited by KeepingFaith on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 10:22:30 AM

-- Edited by KeepingFaith on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 10:43:38 AM

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Nice Nicole....I didn't really like the idea of AA myself. I didn't even like the name. But somehow God wanted me there and for that I am forever grateful. I'm not a real religious guy but I have an incredible faith in prayer..Just from going through those steps. It's pretty amazing and hard to describe. Power of prayer is stronger than the power of alcohol. I didn't think anything was.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole, ...

Great share ... Keep in mind, and I think you're starting to realize this, is that what Mike and Stepchild and I are sharing with you may not be so much what we inject into the conversation as much as it is what God wants you to hear ... (by using us) ... He (God) does come to us in many different ways ... It's only when we're ready to open our eyes that it all starts making some sort of sense ...

AND I am Very interested in your opinion and thoughts on the book 'The Shack' ... Please, please, please keep in touch ... If you like, you can use the PM (Private Messaging)app. to respond if you like ...

You've quickly become another person in my life that I love, please take care and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Pappy! Love ya too!! I am so glad I followed my heart and found my way here. Yes, you all have shared with me a great many lessons, sent from above/beyond, but it amazes me just how much I am growing through this experience. I've felt a lightness in my soul. And the peace I have in sharing the book with him, is of great essence. I would love to know if he kept it, but I can earnestly say, i am happy to trust in HP that all will be as it should be, and if/when I am to know, I will be given the opportunity to see :) Meanwhile, I am working through some guilt of relapsing emotionally before and during that weekend. I just don't know if an attempt to male amends or leave it alone is better... I'm inching along in the shack. Cannot wait to get some reading time in tomorrow. I will def let you know :) By the way, I was curious, have you ever heard of an empath? *hugs* Nicole Ps- pm me too if u like :)

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole...I'm not a relationship or a marriage counselor...I have some real good experience on how to "F" them up. I was real good at that. After getting divorced about 7 years ago after 17 years of marriage which I butchered because of my drinking, I ended up moving to another state and continued drinking. I got into a relationship with a lady I really loved...and still do. I think my alcoholic mind was just happy I could get into a relationship after the trainwreck I just got done with. And of course I screwed that one up too.

All I can do is remember the good time I had with her and sometimes I get this feeling that I wish I could try again with her without alcohol. That would probably end up like being charactor defects on parade. I don't think that's in God's will for me but if it is...I guess I'd know it, it would have to come from her side.. I made my amends with her and haven't heard from her since. I think it was just one more lesson I needed...to see and face this problem I have. And I learned from it. It's only been five months for me in this program and I have learned a lot. I needed to change everything and I needed to grow the hell up. And I'm still working on both, and will be for the rest of my life. Alcohol was involved in every decision I have ever made...including getting into AA...What do they say?...It was the last house on the block for me. Nothing else worked. I guess I was blessed there wasn't kids involved...I just had to deal with time...And that's bad enough.

I think giving him the book, is great....What he does with it is more important. I don't see any reason for you to make an an amends with him...You have every right to be emotionally hurt. That amends should probably come from him...and my guess is he has to deal with his problem and grow up a little before you get one. If you get one. I'd deal with it like I deal with my problems now. Put it in God's hands and take what he gives you. Drinking is not an option for me anymore...But changing and growing up is. I just have to keep trudging on.

Take care of yourself.

-- Edited by Stepchild on Thursday 1st of December 2011 10:13:16 AM

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Thanks Nicole, ...

Keep us up-to-date with things ...

Think I will move on to PMs due to the fact that we're moving away from the primary purpose of this discussion group ... 'dealing directly with the issue of alcohol' ... As you know Al-Anon is better suited to deal with the affects that addictions have on those who do not drink or drug ... but I'd like to continue our friendship because I care about your 'well-being' ...

Thanks again and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks for the support and guidance. You are an awesome inspiration to me! And I am happy that I, too, have a new friend I love in my life :) Will most enjoy pms!

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

"All I can do is remember the good time I had with her and sometimes I get this feeling that I wish I could try again with her without alcohol. That would probably end up like being charactor defects on parade. I don't think that's in God's will for me but if it is...I guess I'd know it, it would have to come from her side.. I made my amends with her and haven't heard from her since. I think it was just one more lesson..." - Stepchild *************************************************+************* Thanks Stepchild! I appreciate the shares you've posted and that gave my heart a much needed hug! I am really struggling with wondering if he has forgotten all that was once special between us. And I kept getting so frustrated, obviously, when I tried communicating with him. But Im seeing how selfish I have been in trying to force him to face me. I can't be his wake-up call. Nor should I be. I want him to get better. And I want him sober. I like him that way. I dispise the way the alcohol and drugs make him behave because I see how opposite his core self is when intoxicated, but he is falling so far down, that even when he isn't using, he is just mean and cold and very very angry - totally opposite of the kind, gentle, silly, friend I know him as. This last weekend taught me that I have to stop. Its cruel of me to provoke him. And if I love him, then I have to trust in what we had and turn my faith in us and him over to the universe/God to handle it. It's not my job. All I can do is support him if/when he chooses to get help. And I have found myself praying for that... That the universe/God allows the crisis that needs to happen, happen soon. Anyway, you have helped me lose some doubt and worry and I really appreciate your experiences as they make me understand more of what is happening to him. It's easy to be sober and know where I am, but without wonderful people like you and Pappy and Fyne Mike, Id have probably pushed myself into "experimenting" what is happening. But here you all are. Sharing the reality and the wisdom of experience and offering gifts of the BB and fellowship to me - truly humbling and inspiring. And I feel very blessed to be here, today, with that embracement. I'm very happy to hear btw, that you are 5 months into your sobriety! That is wonderful and awesome! And it is very much appreciated that you share so freely! It really helps me to keep working :) *hugs* Nicole

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Just speaking from the heart...It's a nasty disease and you can bet there is some hurt on his side too. It's not good for either side...I just hope he gets' a handle on it before it's too late. I came about as close as I could get.

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

I'm having difficulty understanding this: he had said something to me about needing to stop self-medicating. To which I had en outages him to do so and speak honestly with his doctor. Then he shut down and that part of the convo was done. If he then told me, and now seems to not care, is that just what the disease does? Make the person feel like nothing else matter except getting that next pill and drink?

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

I self-medicated myself for 35 years...It's a bitch when you can't stop....It doesn't get much more hopeless then that. People encouraged me to get honest and seek help...I'd shut the conversation down too...Then leave and go get a drink...For years. My last two years of drinking all I wanted to do was die. Drink and think about dying..Maybe feel sorry for myself when I had spare time. I really feel that people are chosen that find this program and work it. It's a free gift from God that anyone can have if they want it.
We have lots' of pictures of people on the walls of our meeting room of AA picnics and parties...And most of them are dead. Simply because they didn't follow the directions. You know alcoholics are the only people that cure lonliness with isolation? Think about that...

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Cure lonliness with isolation?

WOW, I never thought of it that way ... and 'by-golly' you're right, I did that ... the more I was alone with my bottle, the more I liked it that way ... I really was curing my lonliness by isolating ...

Boy, Stepchild, you have the gift of getting 'real' deep, real quick ... heehee

Love ya bro,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Man I love u guys! :) I guess it makes sense. In watching him spiral down and down and down, I would think "he's trying so hard to escape himself - like a dog running away from it's tail." I guess the depression deepens and then it's the comfort of I can drink this and pop these and then I'll fall asleep and then I can have some peace and quiet. Ugh :( makes me so sad. Im learning from what you guys share that in order to understand him, I have to think totally opposite of what I would normally.????. Pondering...

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

No Nicole, ...

You do not need to think opposite of what you would 'normally' ... You're not the one that needs changing ... Well, I take that back, everyone needs to 'wake-up' to the fact they're not running the 'show' ... (life) ... But in your situation I think you're doing exactly what you should be doing, that is trying to comprehend that his problem is not something you can personally do anything about ... As for trying to figure out his 'thinking' ... Hate to say this, but to fully understand, you'd have to be an alcoholic/addict yourself ... (and don't you dare think about putting yourself through that HELL) ...

You don't have to try and think what's opposite from your 'normal', but rather just try to IMAGINE what he's going through ... and you definitely seem to have grasped more about the dilema of the alcoholic than most any other non-alcoholic I've ever known ... Just be CAREFUL, the active alcoholic lives in a very SICK place, and you can be easily drawn into sickness yourself by being close to him(the alcoholic) ...

Keep learning but also keep a safe distance ...

Love Ya and God Bless,
Pappy

P.S. How you coming on the book? ... 'The Shack'?

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Thanks Pappy! :) Last weekend let me see a side of myself I hadn't known could exist. And I realized at my lowest point, just how 'sick' I had become in owning my immediate behavior. I'm grateful for it as it allowed me the honest real feeling of being powerless. And is there as an "ouch" moment reminding me I don't want to go back. I'm doing better in focusing on me rather than thinking of him and/or what he is doing. Although it's hardest before I go to bed, and I wonder if he misses me at all... So I turn my thoughts and creeper worries over to HP and just pray. I think it may be easy to relate to a very minuscule degree because I smoke. When I was on the beginning of my recovery, I would feel so awful and gut-wrenchingly hurt and one night, i thought "why cant he just stop?" AS I was putting a lit cig to my lips & as my hand was rising to my mouth, I realized in that instant "DUH!" and looked at my burning cig & said to myself "oh. That's why." It's hard to stay out of contact with him because I want to know if he's safe, if he cares about me at all, if... And then reality sets in and I force myself to remember that I have to let him be, let him fall on his own (I don't want to be a part of that depression because I am his "happy"), to trust in God, believe in God, stop trying to do God's job, and pray. It's a definite challenge at times for me to NOT take it personally - because I'm here in reality and it affects me because what we *had* was personal...& intimate...which makes it deeply personal, but the deeper reality of our current situation (while he is sick) is that he is determined to avoid reality and therefor, I can't expect to have a rational conversation with someone who isn't living in reality and caught in the bottom of a tornado. So the awakening occurs and I accept that I cannot expect. Period. And finally, there is some peace. As for the shack, I am taking it little by little, as I am also engrossed at the moment with a health issue that has risen up with my son. Although, so far, I am taken and engrossed. Ironically, I mentioned to a guy I work with that I was reading a book in part of my spiritual growth and he asked me which one. I told him "The Shack" and he said how amazing it is and to keep with it. He then shared that he is a pastor and it made such a difference to him. I was amazed by what je shared with me-it just tied everything together full circle and I thought "Devine..." So question today: if he is trying so hard to maintain his job and bs social life, is it possible that he won't invlove me in any way because he cares about me??? Anyway, I shall keep on positive thoughts. And thank you for the help!! It makes me feel secure and less afraid.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole, ...

I must say you do have a knack for asking some 'very' thought provoking questions ...

So question today: if he is trying so hard to maintain his job and bs social life, is it possible that he won't invlove me in any way because he cares about me???

Keep in mind, what I think doesn't matter, it's what you think that's important ... Personally, yes, I believe it is possible that deep within him, he knows he's screwed, as long as he keeps drinking and using ... and that alone may lead him to write you out of his life for fear of screwing your life up too ... I'm NOT saying that what's going through his mind, only that that possibility exists ...

Sorry, gotta go get some stuff done, take care and God Bless,
Pappy

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

My gut does tell me that is prob partially that AND he is afraid of losing me, so if he pushes me out, it seems easier for him to swallow than me dumping him. Bit it's in that inside-out thinking of his that he can't see he is self-sabotaging... as we as humans do when we are afraid. When we're scared something is going to happen, subconsciously, we end up causing it to happen and then seem so shocked that it actually happened! Alcoholic or non. However it takes great self reflection and true, deep honesty within one's self to face fear and trust in God to help make the best decision so you don't act out of fear. Anyway, before I took myself out of denial and learned he's ill from alcoholism, I thought he was doing things to provoke me to break up with him because he was afraid to let himself love me. He has had really bad relationships & afraid to go through a broken heart. So it was very easy for me to "not give up" on us because I wanted to prove I wasn't going to bail on him. This is part of where I get confused with the disease. Now that I understand, I am learning to love him in a whole new way. It bothers me, even though I know it's best, that I haven't heard from him since last weekend when I left the BB. Was that enough??? Part of me wants to talk to him and let him know I'm here, that I'm not ditching him, but that I want him to get better... And a bigger part of me feels that he won't remember what I say or what we could share so just leave him alone (if he doesn't care why should I) but that makes me feel as if I'm acting out of anger, and mostly, Im praying that I'm doing the right thing by staying quiet and praying to God to help him wake up and embrace life once again. Side note: I think I'm a little extra touchy because of other things going on and it pushes the "I miss him" button because I can't tell him what's going on :( So thanks for letting me vent here. but see, that's another part...I cant tell him or at least feel I cant because I don't want to keep trying to insert myself into his life and then I get upset because he isn't reaching out for me. And I don't get how he can keep himself away unless he's convinced I wrote him off. Ugh... So complicated

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Hey Nicole, ...

I'll PM you

lion34 · Newbie

Hi honey, I can can help. (pm sent)

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 5th of December 2011 10:34:11 PM

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Anyone who would like to offer suggestions, they are welcome! I'm meeting my BF in 2 days. First time we will talk f2f since July and first time we are talking since I left the BB for him... What can I say to let him know it's ok to open up and help him over his fear of opening up?

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

Here is something for you to think about before you go...It's out of one of the stories in the Big Book..Hope it helps.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems
today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some
person, place, thing, or situation, some fact of my life
unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until
I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being
exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in Gods world
by mistake.

-- Edited by Stepchild on Tuesday 6th of December 2011 07:06:55 AM

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Reminds me of Popeye! :)- "I ams what I ams and thats all that I ams..." So true and taking the time to consciously think about it does remove the anxiety. Thank you!! :) I'll be reminding myself of that. :)

Stepchild · MIP Old Timer

KeepingFaith wrote:
Reminds me of Popeye! :)- "I ams what I ams and thats all that I ams..."

LOL...I guess you're right...

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

Hehe ;) sorry I just tend to be fecitious! :) But it makes perfect sense... You are always right where you are supposed to be, everything happens for a reason, nature takes it's course, and wherever you go there you are. But at the end, whatever it is you seek is always in the last place you look and it's all good. So, no matter what happens tomorrow, if we meet or he forgets/hides, we talk or not, I trust that my HP is guiding us individually and either will allow us the chance to grow together in a moment, or will remind me that it's not time... just yet...

KeepingFaith · Veteran Member

A little update for anyone who has been following that isnt aware yet... I met with my man last Wed. We talked and I have to say right now THANK YOU to Pappy, Fyne & Stepchild! All the support and information you guys gave me helped us SO much!! Fyne - I certainly would not have had the notion to get prepared. And even though I still have a lot to learn, that beginning preparation has helped to open up a door for him. And even though I fell a little off track along the way, I am making progress an was able to extend what you gave me to him. :) I think leaving the book was awesome. He referred to Bill W during our talk and I felt good! I also had the chance to let him know that AA wasn't at all weird but in fact how cool it is and how much I was getting out of it! We talked a great deal. And after he got past the barking and denial, he began to open up and ask how he had changed, how his behavior different, and how was he being mean. It was beautiful to see him swallow the facts. I knew it was hard, but I was so proud of him for trusting me and wanting to try. By the end of the night, he asked me "So you're saying that you love me...as is... Even though I'm an alcoholic and a fuckin drug addict? And you still love me?"

Wolfie55 · Senior Member

:)

Tempobye · Veteran Member

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