What ever happened to the good old 12 step call?

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

What ever happened to the good old 12 step call?

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

I think you summed it up perfectly actually, newcomers are told "it's a selfish program" and taught to "share about their day" at group level, meetings used to be where we carried our message to the still suffering alcoholic, now they have become where the still suffering alcoholic goes for Group Therapy, where they go to "dump" all their "stuff", going to meetings and sharing is now called "Working the Program" as opposed to working the steps in order to get to step 12 in order to work with others

I wrote here awhile back what it was like when and where I got sober, the level of commitment involved, the service, the close your mouth and open your ears, the 12 step calls, the helping of newcomers, and the response was kind of a shocked silence and "......oh....well that explains a lot about you", I was taught the biggest and just about the only crime in AA was coming in and "getting your hot dog and going home" and that is the norm now, even with people who have been sober a long time here, helping newcomers is "somebody else's job", people who do service are "the service people", people who do 12 step calls are those weirdos who yammer about the Big Book, I have even seen people talk about how they wouldn't work with someone until they had been sober for awhile, that working with a wet drunk or someone "newly sober" was a waste of time, that their brains are still to scrambled to work the steps for the first year

Bill was 12 stepped while drinking, Dr Bob was 12 stepped the day after....AA has become something different, it used to be a large part of our Program was working the steps and then working with others, constant thinking of others was part of our program, selfishness, self centered was the root of our problems, now we teach the newcomers that selfish and self centered is the solution, that holding meetings hostage with puerile crap about jobs and relationships is the answer, that meeting attendance and spouting slogans and the short form of Tradition 3 is the answer, that processing our feelings at group level is the solution, that telling newcomers 90 in 90 is the solution, that talking about themselves is the solution

Over the last few years I have actually done a number of 12 steps calls from AA internet forums, either from finding out where someone lived and sending another sober member of AA that I knew to meet them, or having another sober member of AA contact me and asking me to meet a newcomer/wet drunk...

I don't know Mike, I am so lucky, and so blessed to have gotten sober where I did, they are still going strong, and growing by leaps and bounds, in the area I live in now AA is still small(ish) and held in seedy little meeting halls, and it's a city, where I am from there are weekly Birthday meetings with 500-600-1000 people, as a matter of course, celebration meetings, here I don't know if you could muster 1000 members without draining all the meetings, if at all, and it's a bigger, more populated urban area, maybe selfish, self centered AA isn't the answer....maybe it's more of the same

barisax · Senior Member

The biggest difference between a newcomer today and a newcomer in Bill & Bob's time or even 15 years ago is that before "the net", the majority of newcomers knew nothing at all about AA or alcoholism. Today a large number of newcomers at least THINK they know something about it because chances are they've been googling around the net and hearing all kinds of opinions and counter-opinions. In other words, they may be desperate but they may not be open minded... AA may be just one stop on their shopping list. Unfortunate but there's no way to put that cat back in the bag.

That's not to say that once you get past the superficial prejudice, an alcoholic who is truly ready won't be able to relate. The program is still the same, but the process of getting in the door has changed dramatically from the old word of mouth, or via the family physician or clergy.

I am certainly guilty of using the internet to learn about things before I take a leap. I've had three health issues in the past year, all of which I had heard of but really knew nothing about causes and treatments. Needless to say at my first opportunity after the diagnosis, I was on line reading all I could about it - the worst and best case scenarios, even found a detailed and fascinating video of the surgery I had. All of this isn't good or bad, it's just a fact of life.

I think if I were to go on an old fashioned 12-step call today, odds are I'd be encountering a person who already thought he knew something. He may have tried other solutions and asking for help from AA was a last resort. Or maybe a first resort. But in either case, the person is likely to be more "educated" as to his options than in the old days. But there's a story about this in the Big Book - Bill's Story. Self-understanding was not enough to get Bill sober. The route may have changed, but the message is still the same: if an alcoholic is to get sober, he's going to have to let go of his old ideas - including his own research, however objective it may have been.

Barisax

rrib · Senior Member

I'm grateful for the help I got when I asked for it.

A fellow at work used to take me to lunch sometimes when he observed me come in with an especially bad hangover. He'd buy be a beer and talk about his 'story' over lunch. About his divorces, the money he'd lost, his failing liver ... the resulfts of his years of drinking.

In those years, I only recal him mentioning A.A. once. When I woke up one morning with the shakes bad enough to scare me, it was enough for me to know there might be a phone number in the book I could call for help.

That morning I called. The person who answered asked if I'd started drinking yet and if I wanted help. He took my phone number, said someone would call me back and suggested I try to not drink. Some hours laters, someone called, asked if I still wanted help, took my address and said they'd be by to pick me up later that night.

They came and picked me up that evening, drove me to another suburb, walked me into a large meeting hall, sat me down with a cup of black coffee, put a dollar on the table in front of me and said they'd drive me home after the meeting. Twelve hours after I'd made that call in the morning, I was still shaking and sweating so bad, I couldn't hold my coffee cup without spilling it.

The town I live in now also has a hot-line. It is one of the numbers listed on the aa.org site. Today, I know many of the people who volunteer in my town to answer the hot-line phone and many of those who signup to take 12-step calls. My wife and I sometimes take a turn.

The aa.org site has a pamphlet titled A.A. Answering Services on the A.A. Guidelines page which provides suggestions on how to establish an answering service in your area.

I once asked my sponsor what he thought of the different ways people in A.A. reach out to help others. His answer was 'It's all good'.

-- Edited by rrib on Wednesday 7th of September 2011 01:35:25 PM

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Thanks for sharing all of this guys .. I really appreciate reading it.

12 step work is non existent in my small area.

My sponsor of 7 yrs who recently passed away this past June told me she was going to sponsor me and I was and still am forever grateful for her 'pushiness'

.

It is so difficult to get anyone involved in 'service' in my district. I have tried and after years of continually being let down, I just decided it was time for me to take a break to relieve myself of the frustration and disappointments. yes, Ive stayed sober and thats the main thing. But where there is such a lack of commitment, it gets depressing after awhile.

There are days I think Id like to move to a bigger city to get more involved with ppl who actually want to be involved in AA service and help the newcomer.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Sorry bari,

I can't let that one go.

In your first paragraph you say the newcomer is not responsive to 12 step calls because of prejudice they may have picked up on the net, and in your last paragraph you show the same prejudice by saying you expect the newcomer will be too educated and informed to respond to your efforts to carry the message, so you won't even try.

Certainly the process of getting in the door has changed, as has the recovery rate which has dropped through the floor. Not only is it totally selfish and unreasonable to suggest that a chronic alcoholic in withdrawals and full of fear make his own way to a meeting, it is unrealsistic. For many, just making the call is about the limit of their courage. Funnily enough the last three 12 step calls I have been on have been to people who are not into the net. They new nothing of AA other than what one or two caring friends had told them.

The 12th step tells us to try and carry this message to alcoholics which to me is proactive. It seems many now view themselves as custodians of the message. They do not carry the message to the alcoholic, they wait for the alcoholic to come to them, and then, maybe, they will share some of it, always providing it doesn't interfere with their need to talk about their day. Self knowledge has nothing to do with the 12 step. The message has changed and that's the problem. We have forgotten that in order to recover, alcoholics of our type must go out of our way to help others.

Mike.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Thursday 8th of September 2011 06:36:47 AM

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Thursday 8th of September 2011 06:41:49 AM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:
I think if I were to go on an old fashioned 12-step call today, odds are I'd be encountering a person who already thought he knew something. He may have tried other solutions and asking for help from AA was a last resort. Or maybe a first resort. But in either case, the person is likely to be more "educated" as to his options than in the old days.

That's the thing about speculating about experiences we have never had, any number of scenarios present themselves about why they won't work

In my experience there are those alcoholics willing to let go of their old ideas and there isn't, no matter what their exposure to the net is, same with sponsoring alcoholics, some are ready and some aren't, those that are ready soak up the information and do the work

some people just ask for help but don't really want it, sure, but others actually receive it and do something with it and make changes, do something with what was so freely given them and pass it on to others

takes the effort of passing on what was given us to find out though, and as Bill says "watching a fellowship grow around us from such efforts is an experience we must not miss" it makes life rewarding, and truthfully, those people saved my ass when I got into trouble years later

Aa is great that way though, we get out of it the exact amount we put into it

-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 8th of September 2011 08:12:08 AM

barisax · Senior Member

Fyne Spirit wrote:
Sorry bari,

I can't let that one go.

In your first paragraph you say the newcomer is not responsive to 12 step calls because of prejudice they may have picked up on the net, and in your last paragraph you show the same prejudice by saying you expect the newcomer will be too educated and informed to respond to your efforts to carry the message, so you won't even try.

-- Edited by Fyne Spirit on Thursday 8th of September 2011 06:41:49 AM

Absolutely nowhere in my post did I say I won't even try. Nowhere.

Barisax

barisax · Senior Member

LinBaba wrote:
barisax wrote:
I think if I were to go on an old fashioned 12-step call today, odds are I'd be encountering a person who already thought he knew something. He may have tried other solutions and asking for help from AA was a last resort. Or maybe a first resort. But in either case, the person is likely to be more "educated" as to his options than in the old days.
That's the thing about speculating about experiences we have never had, any number of scenarios present themselves about why they won't work

-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 8th of September 2011 08:12:08 AM

Nor did I say it won't work. It's just one additional obstacle to deal with and be aware of.

Sheesh. I sure am wasting my breath. I think I have now truly reached a level of misunderstanding on this forum that can't be overcome.

Barisax

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

i didn't say you wouldn't try, I was just pointing out you were speculating about an experience you have never had, like you do about sponsoring guys, it's one thing to say "I had this happen once on a 12 step call" and another thing entirely to speculate about something you have no experience with, that's my only point.

my experience is some alcoholics hang on to their old ideas no matter where they learned them, and some are willing to accept with eagerness what we offer and let go of their old ideas, but I wouldn't know if I hadn't tried, one either works with new guys, sponsors others, and goes on 12 step calls (works the 12th step) or they don't, it's that simple, so there's no misunderstanding here, I was just pointing out you were speculating about an experience you have never had, no biggy

barisax · Senior Member

Just because I have never been on a "good old 12 step call" doesn't mean I've never spoken to a newcomer. At a meeting, before a meeting, after a meeting - or here.

In a lot of cases newcomers - really newcomers, not just come-backs - have preconceived ideas about what AA is. Which could be right or wrong. The good old 12 step call originated at a time when alcoholism was a largely taboo subject. It wasn't the subject of major media attention and pop music the way it is today. A newcomer - whether on a F2F 12 step call, or walking in to his first meeting, or sticking his tootsies into an online forum to test the water - is much more likely to have heard of AA, heard of various rehabs, heard the opinions - even if he hasn't been there.

In 1935, or even in 1995, you didn't see TV commercials with smarmy sales pitches saying "AA doesn't work".

This is a potential - not necessarily always - but a potential thing to deal with when working with a newcomer.

Can you disagree with that?

When I walked through the door, I had some preconceived notions of AA, based almost entirely on three people I had known who had or had been in AA. One died drunk, one was sober for a while but didn't have anything I wanted, and another was sober long term and did seem to have something I wanted, but none of these people were present when I walked into my first meeting. I had hope that it could be like the guy who had what I wanted, and that's what I found.

I don't know what it would be like for me coming in today from scratch. I'd probably start out with an on-line forum like this one instead of going to a meeting. As it worked out, I'm glad I went to a meeting, and I'm glad it was before "internet" was a household word.

Barisax

-- Edited by barisax on Thursday 8th of September 2011 03:36:24 PM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

yeah, personally I thought AA was some sort of Christian Cult, and I was rabidly ant~Christian, but I was desperate enough to show up, and I was desperate enough to do what was suggested, the ~one~ thing that absolutely saved my life was when i walked through the door and looked up and saw step 3 on the wall I stopped abruptly and the guy behind me who had brought me said "don't worry about the word God until you are on your third step" so I didn't, and by the time I got to the third step I had gone through "we agnostics" and no longer had a problem with it.

We just have a different idea what the 12th step means and what meetings are for, which is fine, Me, with my old fashioned ideas about sponsorship, working with newcomers, having had 5 newcomers stay on my couch over the years, employing countless others just to see them sweat and do manual labor although they were worthless and pathetically weak, just to help them humility and sweat the toxins from their system, like the guys who hired me digging ditches, to staying up all night with newcomers going over the book and walking them through the first few steps, then later on getting newcomers together with newer members (under 5 years) so they could learn the joys of sponsorship and 12 stepping...we just are looking for something different when we walk through the doors of AA, I am nearly predatory, looking for the guy with shaking hands, the quavery voice, I look at each and every newcomer to see which one I think I can reach then I approach him after the meeting, talk for hours and hours.

Ultimately the only way I ever did end up going on "old fashioned 12 step calls" was by signing up to both answer the phone (the AA hotline) and put myself on the 12 step worker list, couple times a year my phone rings and off I go, until I moved that is.

we just have a diiferent approach ultimately, my approach includes sponsoring guys, as that is where I learned 95% of what I know, for those that haven't done the 12 step calls, the working with wet drunks, the getting guys through the 12 steps, are just going to have a different experience then I do, thats just how that is and no amount of talking will change that,and I am not making a judgment, I am merely stating a fact, guys like me are disappearing from AA in a lot of places, thank God i find pockets here and there, i just found a new fellowship I am loving in a pretty small town near me, and i'm happy, even Jesus said something like "I have milk for babes and meat for strong men" meaning there is more then one way to skin a cat.

aint no thang

barisax · Senior Member

LinBaba wrote:
we just have a diiferent approach ultimately, my approach includes sponsoring guys, as that is where I learned 95% of what I know

I'll sponsor anyone that asks. I don't get asked all that often and of those who did, only one ever stuck around or at least kept me as a sponsor. Whatever the majority look for in a sponsor, they don't see in me.

I did institution meetings for a while. To my knowledge nobody from any of those institutions got sober or stayed sober. I did. I can't really measure my success on the number of people I sponsor or the number of people I've worked with that got sober, or I'd have to consider myself a 99% failure. I've stayed sober and that's something MY sponsor loved to point out to me over and over, no matter what it was I had just failed at. Or succeeded at.

It would be interesting to meet someday, and see if our perceptions of each other are even in the ball park. I've been on line a long time - in non-AA things - and have gotten to meet some of the people I've met on line. Sometimes people I've known 20 years on line and finally met in person, as happened on my last trip south. They are rarely substantially different from the person I've come to know on line. A few surprises, but nothing major. But in this anonymous environment, things are harder to read.

Barisax

leeu · MIP Old Timer

Always interesting to read when LinBaba and barisax get to debating! I inevitably find enuf food for thought from all points of view to keep me mulling for quite a while.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

leeu wrote:
Always interesting to read when LinBaba and barisax get to debating! I inevitably find enuf food for thought from all points of view to keep me mulling for quite a while.

Yeah I actually like Bari quite a bit, can't say how he feels about me but I do enjoy pulling his tail now and again, and truthfully I love his laid back emotional sobriety, I'd be interested to meet him as well, because I know my MIP persona and my RL persona don't really match, here I'm dryer then a popcorn fart and probably seem pretty pompous and rigid whereas IRL I'm pretty laid back and pretty much it's always about the laughter......on MIP you can't always see the twinkle in my eye when I say a lot of the things I do, whereas those folks that know me give as good as they get and we end up just ROLLING, we hit hard but it's all in fun, and it's all truth, so sometimes the truth stings, and that's cool too, we still laughing

barisax · Senior Member

leeu wrote:
Always interesting to read when LinBaba and barisax get to debating! I inevitably find enuf food for thought from all points of view to keep me mulling for quite a while.

In any other context I enjoy debating immensely. But when it comes to AA, I really am not comfortable with it. I know I still do it anyway, because I am compelled to respond. Last time I just deleted my posts... it's as close as I could come to a retraction. It's not that I have changed my opinion, I just wish I hadn't said it - it really serves no purpose here. Some things I should just keep to myself, but the temptation is too great. I simply can't afford to develop an attitude or resentment for anything or anyone related to AA. It's too precious to me. There's nothing else in my life that gets the same consideration, believe me. If I could engage the debate without getting emotionally involved, it would be a different story, but there's just too much at stake. And yet, I get sucked into it again and again... if I don't start it myself

Barisax

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

Fyne Spirit wrote:
In my home town we have a lot of trouble getting members to go on 12 step calls. The mantra is "get yourself to a meeting near you" and I notice the same advice is frequently given on this forum. It's scary.
Today I am always ready to go on a 12 step call. The opportunity to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic is a great privilege. This work is so incredibly rewarding I just can't understand why anyone would be reluctant to do it.

Mike,

Good topic, and you make some good points. I also try to encourage people in the forum to call the local central office, to have someone call on them or pick them up or at least make contact with them before the meeting.

In the very early days, I don't think you could have just showed up at a meeting without someone doing a 12th step call on you. Dr Bob made guys show their commitment by coughing up $50.00 for a week hospital stay, during the week members would bring the meeting to hospital, that was part of the 12th step work.

I had not been on a traditional 12th step call in years until a few weeks ago (it was for the son of a friend in the program), I took a couple other guys. It's not hard to understand how a lot of folks with 5 or even 10 yrs sober don't know what a traditional 12 step call is.

I'm on our central office 12 step call list, and I encourage all those capable to do the same, but the fact is our Central office offers 12 step contacts but they normally don't accept. Most of the calls I get are from out-of towners doing training at a local corporation who want to get connected and need rides to meetings.

No doubt the face of 12 step work has changed, but there is a lot of it out there if we seek it:

Befriend and greet the new people at meetings, introduce them to others and offer phone #'s.

Help establish a sponsorship program and lists of temporary sponsors/sponsors at your home group and offer newcommer packs etc.

See what help you can offer at the treatment centers/hospitals and jails.

Sponsor and make sure your sponcee's understand 12th step work and it's importance.

Always be part of the solution.

http://aa.org/lang/en/catalog.cfm?origpage=161&product=17

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Bari, my apologies.

I did not mean to give offence and while I drew from your post the inference that you never have been on a good old fashioned 12 step call, I was quite wrong to assume you never will.

The purpose of the original post was to draw attention to an aspect of the way the message is carried (or not as the case may be) these days and seek members views on whether this might be a contributing factor to why our recovery rates are so dismal compared to when the fellowship started. If AA was starting from scratch today, using the methods many of the membership seem happy to adopt, I suspect it wouldn't even get off the ground. Locally, our membership is at about the same level as it was thirty years ago.

I enjoy this forum as much as a form of meditation as anything else. I am not much of a writer but as I am trying to compose my thoughts I am learning quite a bit.

12 stepping from the net is of limited effectiveness. I have observed that a newcomer may take advice and attend a meeting, only to find they have walked into one of those that I would never take a pigeon to if I were working with them on a personal level. In my town, some of the meetings are just so far off the track you wouldn't believe it! There is just no recovery on offer at all. So I believe, based on experience, that it is safer for the newcomer and much more effective to see them first and take them to an appropriate meeting.

The second thing I notice these days is the ones who can't bring themselves to go to a meeting cold turkey, so to speak, often go to the doctor first who medicates them. They arrive at their first meeting looking good, no shakes, no emotional pain, and they talk about how wonderfully kind we at AA are to have them in our meeting. The doc has robbed them of the gift of desperation and these folks seem to drift away after a couple of meetings, probably to develop further addictions. They feel ok, they don't really need AA.

The third thing is that the newcomer is often left to their own devices even if they do get to the meeting under there own steam. Unless they walk into a well organised group, no one will look after them and they will pick up our bad habits and repeat them in the future.

The forth thing is an alcoholic in withdrawals is in a perilous situation and is certainly in no state to drive. They need looking after.

The fifth thing is the person asking for help may not be an alcoholic. They may have other needs for which our fellowship is not appropriate. Many of these just turn up at meetings and quickly pick up on the short 3rd tradition to cement their membership. Then they try and sponsor real alcoholics and end up killing them.

So, there you have five reasons why the lack of willingness to go on an old fashioned 12 step call, as described in our manual of instruction, puts the lives of newcomers and the very survival of our fellowship at risk. Not to mention the vital importance to the sobriety of real alcoholics of practicing these principles in all our affairs.

Mike.

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

They're alive and well thanks to you. Keep up the good work...