Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward.

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

I was going to say how true, but there are subtle nuances here. The steps can only be understood in hindsight and it seems no amount of knowledge will enable an alcoholic of my type to understand a step before taking it. The BB also tells us that self knowledge is ineffective in curing us. I drank because I am an alcoholic, and my drinking led to my problems. It does me no good to speculate on why I am an alcoholic, I just need to accept that I am and do my best today, now, to live the spiriitual life that I have been shown. I don't wish to shut the door on my past, it is part of me and can be used to help others. But I can't change it and I don't dwell on it. All my skeletons have been out of the closet and given a good airing, there is nothing back there that I fear anymore.

God bless
MikeH.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Fyne Spirit wrote:
. I don't wish to shut the door on my past, it is part of me and can be used to help others. But I can't change it and I don't dwell on it. All my skeletons have been out of the closet and given a good airing, there is nothing back there that I fear anymore.

God bless
MikeH.

We can't change others' perception of the "past" but we sure can change ours. Our past exists in our memory which is stored in a number of synapses in the brain tissue. Every time we recall memories we alter them a bit, usually through positive or negative emotions, which in turn get bonded to the memory in another layer of synapes, which either minimalize or enhance the memory. Often times, people victimize themselves by binding seemingly like circumstances (painful) together to establish (what the brain likes to do) a trend, along with statements like "this always happens to ME". Working the steps, especially 4 and 5, along with a sponsor helps to pull this stuff apart and see it for what it really is, human instincts out of control or "self will run riot". So in essence we do "change the past" through changing our perception of it.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Well, I recognised self will run riot, and I came to understand about instincts through step 4, but I am unfamiliar with the rest. An AA friend of mine has just obtained a degree in substance abuse counselling and tells me he has great trouble reconciling what he has learned through his degree course with what he has experienced in his recovery journey. He told me the thinking in this area undergoes a periodic revolution, out with the old and in with the new. Apparently the field has moved from modern, to post modern, to something else that i can't recall. In essence Freud and Jung are history and more modern ideas carry the day. I suppose this is because science is constantly making new discoveries and as this happens, old theories become out dated. Fortunately for me I was too thick to want to pursue this approach, settling instead on the principles of the AA program which I believe are both universal and timeless. It works just as well today as it did in Jung's day and the things that always seem to happen to me are things like miracles I get to witness, discoveries I get to make, people I meet, moments of intense joy and serenity, adversity that offers opportunity for growth, and this amazing faith proven to me so many times that no matter what happens it will be alright. Yes I get the idea of changed perception, my past is something of which I am no longer ashamed, it no longer has the power to keep me lonely, it has turned into an assett. As it says in the BB, we will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it....

Mike.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

I think you're confusing physiology with psychology. We're saying essentially the same thing. I just enjoy some nut and bolts about what makes us tick. There is a lot working against a chronic alcoholic that's trying to get well. Sorting out some of the "cunning, baffling, and powerful" helped this alcoholic rather than just accepting it as the bogey man. lol

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Dean,
you are absolutely right about me confusing things, though I did think there was at least an element of psychology in your post. But I am getting better. These days I have no trouble at all deciding which socks to wear and how to put them on lol. I also remember which is port and starboard, which comes in handy at times.

In the subject we have been discussing I have been trying to convey the idea that keeping it simple is not a bad thing. In my case I was simple, so my outlook was simple and for what ever reason I didn't feel the need to take more action than that required in the BB. But I notice in my local area, among the fellowship are a number of folks who do nothing but navel gaze. The more they gaze, the more they find. They rush from this counsellor to that, and even after 10 or 15 years without a drink, they come crashing into the meeting in varying states of desperation. They don't seem to be able to get by on less than 1 meeting a day and often do 2. They rely on sponsors to help them with their choice of socks, they don't sponsor or 12 step, some are prolific 13 steppers, and they think the steps are a set or levers and they want their sponsor to tell them which one to pull to make them (selves) feel better. One I know has a masters in psychology. I really don't want what they have. They seem to be searching for reasons, for things to blame and for people to fix them, anything but doing the steps. We thought we could find an easier softer way.....it's not a great example for the newcomer. For me I think it is wise to give the return of sanity priority, but once that has happened I am sure no sane person would discourage us from expanding our knowledge in any area that interests us

Mike.

Mr_David · MIP Old Timer

Thanks...Larry for the insight.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Hey Mike, I've seen those folks too, and I appreciate your fundamentalism in your message. It's appropriate. This simple program and the steps are enough to get and stay sober. And some would say that "all of the answers to my problems are in the first 167 pages", and maybe they are, for a lot of us. Keeping it simple is a good safe plan. For some, It might be a lonely limited one though. I know that Bill W made mention several times of not putting limits on our recovery, and in so many words that this is not all that there is. A be all that you can be, as it was. It's easy to argue the "what's good for the newcomer", but what happens to that newcomer at say 4.8 years, when they look around and say "is this it? Each day that I stay sober I'm a 'winner'?" Bob Earle (circuit speaker in the '80's, sober since '61) addressed that well in one of his speaking engagements. It's in the sticky thread above. He woke up on his 5th anniversary and his sponsor asked him where is was going to celebrate. He said he "didn't want to take a cake, because he didn't have any encouragement to give the newcomers". He said that he was burned out from sponsoring people, taking meetings to the jails, being a GSR, working the phones, the steps. He felt cured of his alcohol and drug addictions but something was really wrong and eating him up inside. He had worked the steps through several times but He had some serious ACOA issues and these were causing him to be quite dysfunctional in several areas of his life. He wasn't getting any relief from them from speaking with his sponsor or in meetings. He Heard a lot of "keep your comments in alignment with your problem with alcohol and approved literature". Another member of our fellowship, John Bradshaw, who got sober in the late '50's, had the same kind of experience, and wrote a great best seller book "On The Family" about the multi-generational Alcoholic dysfunctional family system. I consider him the Godfather of ACOA. I felt the same way about relationships. Every time I mentioned that word in meetings people cringed and squirmed and changed the subject. I looked around and many of the people with time lived alone. That was definitely not what I wanted. Thankfully I found my way into a few other fellowships that helped me immensely and today I remain teachable and open to wisdom from unlimited sources. Is this sort of action for newcomers? Of course not, just as AA is "not for everybody" nor is it the only place to get sober. Don't get me wrong, I am a gratefully recoveryING member, and without this program there would be no other 12 step programs. And I appreciate the movement to keep AA as it was originally intended to be, for the benefit of "The newcomer" and the Survival of AA. I just don't agree that everything I ever need to know about being happy, healthy, joyous, free, and successful in life, is in the 1st 167 pages.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Hi Dean, interesting discussion upon which I have been cogitating for the last couple of days, while enjoying some great spring weather on the boat. I agree with everything you have said inlcuding the part about not all answers for all things being in the first 167 pages. It is my belief that the last thing our founding members would have intended would be to restrict our progress in anyway, and they certainly didn't claim to be the last word. " We realise we know only a little.."

I was surprised that you have had difficulty raising the issue of relationships in meetings. I would have thought this area was one of our main underlying problems and our relationship with God and our fellows seems to be what the program is all about. For me the objective of sobriety is, in one sense, to rejoin the human race and develop healthy relationships with my fellows. Pretty much all of our house cleaning steps are concerned with cleaning up our relationships and making restitution. A big part of this is to get our relationship with Him on a good footing, realising that all people have feet of clay. Bill W in his pamphlet "Emotional Sobriety" talks of this. It seemed to take him about 20 years to get to this point. I had a simlar experience and have met other oldtimers who report something we now call the 20 year blues.

This is perhaps where things often go awry. Some in our fellowship have enormous difficulty shifting their emotional dependence to God, choosing instead to depend on partners, counsellors, sponsors etc, and the human objects of their dependence are of course, fallible, and the wheels fall off on a regular basis.

From there we can end up between a rock and a hard place. The question is has the alcoholic (with this problem) done all that needed to be done to achieve sobriety (i.e an absolutely genuine effort at all of the steps) and having given of their best, has the AA program failed to connect them with their higher power? Or, has the alcoholic baulked at some of the steps and looked for an easier softer way through some other approach.

The answer depends on their ability to be honest with themselves, but assuming they have done their best, perhaps there is something blocking them which is beyond the ability of AA to help. There is such a wide range of potential problems to which I would imagine alcoholics may be more prone than the average person, that of course AA can offer no answers for.

In spiritual matters the early AA's were christian and many returned to their churches and they encourage us to do the same if that is out thing. But we know there are many other things that can be pursued in this area, and always more to be learned about ourselves.

I notice you distinguish yourself from the authors of the Big Book who were recovered as opposed to recovering. Alcohol ceased to be a problem in my life some time in the first 3-6 months in AA, pretty much as promised in the Big Book. This was the original reason I came to AA so in that sense I had recovered, and I was then embarking on a new life, which involved significant and sometimes painful personal growth. At some point I reached the stage where I was more or less similar to non alcoholics (normal people) that I knew in terms of how I lived my life. I had rejoined the human race. I am in no doubt that I have been recovered from that seemingly hopless state for quite a few years. But I am still growing, still learning, still amazed by the miracles I get to see.

I don't know of any other effective method of sobering up alcoholics of my type. I have been told of one or two, but always by inmates of sanitariums so I tend to discount their opinions. I do think that the stats get a bit warped these days because such an industry has grown up around substance abuse, that the bar is set pretty low to qualify as an alcoholic. I often see people classed as such by the professionals, but they are not the same as me. They are not beyond human aid. For these lucky folks there are many options available to get them sober and they frequently recover and always have done. They don't need AA or the steps, though many seem to enjoy the fellowship of the meetings. But that's another story.

Mike.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Great post Mike. On the "cured" thing. Yes i would say that I am cured from the drinking aspect of my disease (if/until I lose my mind and pick up a drink), but I feel like many others, that my disease began well before I had my first drink. It's the obsessive compulsive disorder (the disease of MORE) that centered on alcohol, for a time, as my drug of choice, amongst others (cigarettes, drugs, sex...). Both of my parents were alcoholics. By the age of two, I had developed what we call a "Type T", for thrill seeker, personality and was jumping off of the high dive, roof tops, cliffs into quarys. Then racing motorcycles, a bit of criminal behavior as a pre-teen/ teen, risky sex, then experimenting with drugs probably fascinated that they were illegal. Later, in recovery, I realized that I had numbed my feelings as a small child to avoid pain. I wasn't feeling anything on a daily basis. The near death experiences and risky behavior seemed to be the only way that I could find to live in the moment and feel anything in real time. I learned that my attachment to people centered around validation, and feelings of abandonment centered around the same. These came before, and survived my recovery from "alcoholism". Some of these issues kept me from getting sober for years.

In my experience, it was the participation in a combination of a couple 12 step groups that finally got me over the hump and into the fold of AA sobriety (and independence for drugs/cigarettes/sex). I was having an extremely hard time of letting go of a relationship that was blocking my path to sobriety. The help that I got with relationships outside of AA was indespensable. Today my disease is a chameleon in nature and bonds to people, places, and things or experiences that I find enjoyable. Just like alcohol, my perception is that I really like to be with, do these things. My mind says, "ah this is it!, If I just do this the rest of my life, no worries". Then I realize that it's an obsession and it wanes. You see, people like us, have difficulty deriving "happiness" out of everyday life. I'm very educated in this concept. I know that happiness is an inside job and has primarily to do with being content with myself and where I fit into my higher power's universe today and is a direct result of my gratitude for exactly what I have today, and my spiritual condition. Along with how closely I live my live to a set of principals that I believe in. My self esteem and self worth is partially based on belief and backed up with correct actions. . I even know it well through successful practice for many years and it's been working consistently. I tell people that "Gratitude = Happiness" in a one to one ratio. And most of time this works.

But the "Type T" still lives inside, hence "still gratefully recovering". This monster wants the big bang out of life. And not just once in a while, on vacation, a couple times a year. He sorted out, a long time ago, that ordinary life is mundane, milktoast, bland, and hardly worth living. He, in his dysfunctional thinking, devised a way to create a higher level of happiness, in the absence of it, by substituting pleasure. Most of us found a way to string enough pleasurable events together, in a day, to simulate "Happiness". There is a lot of Brain chemistry, involving drugs in the brain many times stronger than alcohol, or heroin wrapped up in this process. Do you own research. Several studies have been done on addiction and brain chemistry, and the triggering of Serotonin, endorphins, dopemine, adrenellin... by the addict. Most (if not all) of these strong chemicals are opiates.

One of the studies of addiction and brain chemistry centered around the autopsy of a severe alcoholic. They found so much residue of opiates in the alcoholic's brain, that they asked the family of the man if he was also a heroin addict. He had more than most heroin addicts, that they had autopsied. The family said deffinitely not. He had done all of his drinking at home and it wasn't possible. What they began to suspect and later confirmed was that the alcohol had repeatedly triggered the brain to release the internal opiates in the brain. Later they found that all addictions cause the brain to release these power chemicals, turning us into internal drug addicts. Oh sure, we need small amounts of these chemicals on a daily basis to function and have that natural feeling of well being, naturally eliminate stress, and normaly process our emotions. But once we have crossed the line in this respect of abusing brain chemicals, just as we did with our dependence on alcohol, our brain chemistry (or stucture) has been altered through the brains adaptation of growing more neuro receptor sites. We are predispositioned now toward obsessive/compulsive behaviors. If you're interested, google addicts brain chemistry/ additional neuro receptor sites to save me a couple of paragraphs. Most of what you'll find has been taught in alcohol/drug rehabs for the last 20. years at least. These are not psychological models, or fad theories that come and go, as you explained in one of your earlier posts. Having knowledge of this process allows me to remind myself that my disease is alive and well and does more than waits for me to pick up that first drink.

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Dean,
the more I get to know, the more I realise I don't know. Your description of the type "T" behaviours explains something I heard in a meeting not long ago. My friend there who suffered from both drug addiction and alcoholism was talking about a fun fair he visited in China. He took the roller coaster ride and absolutely loved it. He then stopped himself from having another go because for him it seems that would be too much of a good thing. I don't understand that type of thinking but perhaps he is a type T and is aware of it?. For me a roller coaster does not hold any attraction. I guess that is because I am not too good with heights although I have generally overcome that fear by climbing the mast on my boat from time to time. But I only go up there when there is work to be done. I guess boats are my thrill and have been for most of my life. My enjoyment comes from all the differnet aspects like maintenance and construction, its very satisfying making a nice job of some joinery. Also sitting on someone elses boat and discussing their adventures, planning voyages, learning skills like navigation, working around the club house, and of course actually going sailing.

It was very interesting to read about the opiates in the alcoholic brain. I wonder how that works. I don't recall much thrill seeking in my drinking, my aim was to just have a good time and sometimes there was some fun but mostly ridiculous and tragic outcomes. i.e passed out in a pile of partly eaten hamburgers in my best clothes. Not really thrill seeking stuff. Could it be that the body tries to compensate for the relentless depressive effect of alcohol by generating these other chemicals? Would a closet drinkers brain be full of opiates?

When it came to drugs, dope lsd and daytura were the common options in my day, I had an obliging friend who would try anything. I didn't like what happened to him so I never did try some of the more powerful potions. I tried dope a couple of times but would much rather drink. After release from a treatment centre a year or so before I got the message ( I was sort of trying to stay sober without AA), well meaning friends offered me some dope as a safe alternative. It certainly changed the way I felt, and a drink was down my neck in seconds. That was when I sold all my medication, which I was not taking anyway, for a litre of beer per tablet. And of course I had been set on the path that almost killed me.

Then there are the joggers. I have heard that they can experience a high similar to that which you describe, something about getting through the pain barrier?

At the point I got sober, there were no relationships in my life. Since about 18 and probably before that I was just incapable of forming anything like a relationship. That's not to say lust wasn't a serious problem. At 22 and in recovery was when all that kind of stuff came to light and I went through one very stormy relationship with another AA in the first few months. Part of growing up it was a classic case of instinct for security that drove me into that situation, and a valuable lesson was learned, or maybe more than one. At the moment I sponsor two men with co-dependency issues and I can see how serious it is. It appears to me to be so very similar to the alcoholic in denial, especially for one of them. He seems to have no defence, like can't turn his phone off, can't help responding to messages etc. It really is an insane situation and beyond my experience. The other one has been sober 15 months or so and has taken the steps and continues to do so. His life has improved dramatically and sanity has returned. He is working through a counsellor at his work, and has the support of his friends and workmates with his CD problem, which has diminished considerably in the effect it has on him. I guess the interesting thing is he has been able to develop strategies for dealing with the CD.
Just as I think Iv'e got it settled, I remember the very exciting time I had in the first few years sober> I somehow landed and incredible job for a single fella and I became so full of enthusiasm about that and the many new experiences that I am sure I became delusional for a time. I just remembered my late sponsor's counsel
"Michael, settle for being ordinary"! But then, don't all young Americans dream of being the president?
Mike.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

I remember riding a roller coaster over and over again with my 16 year old son. Just after we got off of it we raced back around to the line. The park was empty and we rode it about every 5 minutes for about an hour. Looking back, I think I could've gotten a few more runs in. lol Here's some good info about addiction and brain chemistry. Keep in mind that any behavior can become addictive, as it stimulates the "Reward Circuit" in the brain. You can read more about it here. http://www.nida.nih.gov/scienceofaddiction/brain.html

"Most drugs of abuse target the brain's reward system by
flooding the circuit with dopamine.

How do drugs work in the brain?
Drugs are chemicals. They work in the brain by tapping into the brain's communication system and interfering with the way nerve cells normally send, receive, and process information. Some drugs, such as marijuana and heroin, can activate neurons because their chemical structure mimics that of a natural neurotransmitter. This similarity in structure "fools" receptors and allows the drugs to lock onto and activate the nerve cells. Although these drugs mimic brain chemicals, they don't activate nerve cells in the same way as a natural neurotransmitter, and they lead to abnormal messages being transmitted through the network.

Other drugs, such as amphetamine or cocaine, can cause the nerve cells to release abnormally large amounts of natural neurotransmitters or prevent the normal recycling of these brain chemicals. This disruption produces a greatly amplified message, ultimately disrupting communication channels. The difference in effect can be described as the difference between someone whispering into your ear and someone shouting into a microphone.

How do drugs work in the brain to produce pleasure?
Most drugs of abuse directly or indirectly target the brain's reward system by flooding the circuit with dopamine. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter present in regions of the brain that regulate movement, emotion, cognition, motivation, and feelings of pleasure. The overstimulation of this system, which rewards our natural behaviors, produces the euphoric effects sought by people who abuse drugs and teaches them to repeat the behavior.

How does stimulation of the brain's pleasure circuit teach us to keep taking drugs?
Our brains are wired to ensure that we will repeat life-sustaining activities by associating those activities with pleasure or reward. Whenever this reward circuit is activated, the brain notes that something important is happening that needs to be remembered, and teaches us to do it again and again, without thinking about it. Because drugs of abuse stimulate the same circuit, we learn to abuse drugs in the same way.
All drugs of abuse target the brain's pleasure center diagram
Click to enlarge

Why are drugs more addictive than natural rewards?
When some drugs of abuse are taken, they can release 2 to 10 times the amount of dopamine that natural rewards do.15 In some cases, this occurs almost immediately (as when drugs are smoked or injected), and the effects can last much longer than those produced by natural rewards. The resulting effects on the brain's pleasure circuit dwarfs those produced by naturally rewarding behaviors such as eating and sex.16,17 The effect of such a powerful reward strongly motivates people to take drugs again and again. This is why scientists sometimes say that drug abuse is something we learn to do very, very well."