While you will all probably kick me out of the AA board and tell me to go to the NA board, I used. I have TMJ and they prescribed Fioricet for the pain (a mild narcotic). I knew it was wrong and I asked for it anyway (DON'T STOP READING JUST BECAUSE I SAID NARCOTIC). I did it for the same reasons I drank alcohol--to alter my state of mind. So while this is an AA board I think it is important to remember that it isn't just the alcohol that "effs" us up, it is our thinking.
The point is this. My sponsor told me to read the third step prayer every morning--I didn't do it. I was going to meetings every day and then missed a few days. I stopped saying the serenity prayer. I procrastinated on my 4th step and only had a list of names (that had been written down for 2 weeks) However, I thought I had a handle on things.
With the blink of an eye, all of that changed. Whether it is alcohol or another substance, your mind can take over in a snap. I tricked myself.
My purpose is to share this experience in hope that another alcoholic will be reminded of the importance of working the program. I picked up another white chip today. Back to basics for me ...
-- Edited by ChelseaOT on Monday 29th of August 2011 11:35:54 PM
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his roots grasped a new soil
one is one too many and one more will never be enough
faith has to work twenty four hours in us and through us or we perish
You are the one that has to own your motives. You DO have TMJ...Fioricet IS an appropriate drug for that. You don't need to suffer like a christian scientist to be in AA. Now, if you know you took a bunch of narcotic pills when you really didn't have much pain...I guess that's another story.
I doubt you relapsed from not doing a step four at 72 days. Others will argue with me and say you should do all the steps as fast as you can so you don't stay sick. I personally think doing step 4 at 72 days sober is too soon and you still need to be working 1 through 3 and building a foundation for your sobreity.
My concern is not that you "used" as much as it's that you seem to think you messed up so so so bad and I'm not really hearing it. You are the one to ultimately decide though.
Also, OF COURSE YOU BELONG HERE. Do you have an interest to stop drinking? Yes. You are in the right place.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I don't know the first thing about drugs. All that code you mentioned is just double dutch to me. I do however believ in the 4th tradition long form. On the short form I did not qualify to be in AA, I had lost all grip on reality and it didn't occur to me that I would have to stop. In fact my problem was an insane desire to drink! the long form says "our membership ought to inlude all who suffer from alcoholism etc" That was obvious to those who met me so they let me in.
Mark leans towards thoroughness which is fair enough. In my experience speed with the steps never did any harm - stating the obvious that the work needs to be done under the guidence of a competent sponsor. We can confuse honesty with accuracy and so lead ourselves into procrastination. If something is missed, we get brought back to it, and in anycase we are developing the steps as a way of life so we will be regularly revisting each step both for our selves and to help others. It's in the trying that we suceed. I have come to believe that God gives us a window of opportunity to attempt this program and we don't know how long the window will be open for. We know our fundamental problem is that we are without defense against the first drink at certain times. That defence must come from a power greater than ourselves, and the purpose of the steps is to connect us with that power. And we know the steps remove the obstacles that are blocking us. In the BB they talk about returning relapsers reporting that a common reason they fell was because of incomplete step 5 or refusal to make an amends. From there I believe it can be seen that there can be no defense until after step nine when the obstacles have been removed. Relief and shelter can be found after step 9, so is there time to waste? There are plenty of admonitions to urgency in the Big Book. Just one rider on that, while we get through the steps for the first time quickly, there will be progress on steps such as 9, but obviously it can be a long time before such a step is completed, if ever. We claim progress not perfection. God bless MikeH
The only requirement for membership is "the desire" an unmeasurable quotient.Thank you for your honesty,the antidote to our diseased thinking. We are "powerless" when any driving force in our lives is beyond or out of control.Reservations are places in our program that we have reserved for relapse.They may be built around the idea that we can retain a small measure of control,like we could deal but not use,hang in bars and not drink,play with people who are active,using in areas of activity something we can't face in sobriety,a death ,loss of job etc.We are masters of self deceit.Sometimes these reservations are tucked away so far in back of our minds we are not fully concious of them..Putting down the substance is only the top of the iceberg,necessary absolutely if we are to move forward,but if that were the only case once we lose the obsession and compulsion to use ,we would all be cured' We are never cured,but we do recover a day at a time.This disease is "insidious" lurking,sneaky,overtakes before we are aware" etc.(see Webster's defintion)We have to stay vigilante.You've taken some time to beat yourself up ,now its time to get back up, dust yourself off, take a look at what your going to do different this time.We are alcoholics,WE DRINK.WE may be addicts,we use,but there is another way.When the pain outweighs the pleasure ,you'll make a decision to go on to the same jails,institutions,deriliction or death or find a new way to live.We can offer only a message of hope and a promise of freedom from active addiction,takes vigilance,daily work,a fit spiritual condition and the grace and mercy ,above all ,from your Higher Power. Ain't no big I's or little U's up in here,we all suffer from a devastating illness,some are sicker than others and we all are responsible for our own recoveries. Make today ,day 1 again and move forward,keep coming back okay.You are an alcoholic if you say you are, so are WE........
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Hi Chelsea, and welcome back. A lot of of us here are alcoholics and addicts, myself included. I also relapsed on drugs once. I began attending NA meetings, along with my AA meetings, to remind myself that drugs are a problem for me to. This is a message board, not AA. While we talk about recovery from alcoholism and AA in general, no one is getting "kicked out" for talking about other substances. Proper etiquette would be to limit the details on the discussion of these other substances. While it's not recommended to accept/take presciption narcotics, sometimes it's neccessary per your situation and doctors direction. Taking such at perscribed is not necessarily considered a relapse. Of course, it's an awefully strong trigger to drink and our disease will tell us that we've already relapsed, so might as well drink if we're picking up a white chip anyway. Be careful of this kind of thinking, as we always have another drunk in us, but we may Not have another recovery. Recovery is an open window of time, space, grace, and mindset that can close at any time. It's a gift and not to be taken lightly. I'm one of the few that relapsed several times and, by the grace of my higher power, found my way back to the rooms, hopefully to stay, one day at a time. Keep coming back and work it harder this time.
It's been my experience that somethings my head tells me is totally wrong this desease is cunning and baffeling. I have found that if I think with my heart instead of my head my heart many times will over ride my head and I do the right thing. As far as not getting you 4th step done in 72 days I feel it's more the fact that you quit doing daily maintenance opening th door for your head to lie to you. The first step must be taken 100% from the very beginning and is forever if we are to stay sober and clean. The 4th step is to be fearlesss and thourough and should not be rushed through. I always tell my sponsees to takes their time but get it done that they will proably do another 4th along the way in their journey into a better life. Relapse happens not because we are alcoholic but because we are human and quit doing what we need to do to keep our disease arrested just like diabetics or any other disease. Use your relapse as a growing experience, I know I use other people's relapse as a reminder of where I came from and that I am just one drink away from being right back there.
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Tell me and I'll forget. Teach me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn.
arrive at step 12 and the spiritual awakening/personality change has taken place
we get promises from doing each step, step 10 the obsession has been lifted, and we are not fighting anyone or anything
I like it because it's easy to see my progress, if I'm not getting the promise from each step, I still have more work to do on that step, like if I am fighting with myself and have conflict in all my personal and professional relationships, and everyone else around me I may need to revisit step 10 a little more often, and since step 10 is basically steps 1-9 it might behoove me to do them again since I obviously missed the boat the first time
drinking is but a symptom, our thinking is the problem, we have a solution called working the steps
I know we aren't supposed to take other peoples inventories, but when it came time to work my steps with someone I absolutely took inventories, if I want what someone has I do what they do, I notice the people who work a good program, ie the steps are serene and happy and somehow all the pieces of their life seems to fall in place, so I go where they go and do what they do, so I can get what they got, and if I want to be in conflict with everyone around me, I do what they do, and go where they go, so I can get what they got
easy choice for me
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Step 1 needs to be done perfectly and that takes time. Step 2 is a process of coming to believe. If you force it, it will be false and an act of the will which is counter productive. Step 3 is basically a coping skill for learning to let go. Yes, it's also a decision to hand over your will to a higher power, but if you don't understand the higher power and havent practiced "turning it over" it will be an exercise in futility. These 3 steps are crucial and need to be done very thoroughly or you are building a house on a shaky foundation and it will crumble.
I have seen more people get in trouble by trying to do a 4th step in the midst of their brain still reeling and being stuck in the wreckage of the past. The saying "easy does it" is there for a reason.
Again, my opinion and I knew other's would disagree. I respect the value of doing things differently, and for different people, other methods might work better.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
The really cool thing about AA is that you can do whatever you want, and you can do it for as long as you can stand it. Its funny how in 2001 the percentage of people that come to AA and stay sober for the long haul is in the single pecentage. Back in the early days it was quite a bit different.
FOREWORD TO SECOND EDITION
Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955.
"While the internal difficulties of our adolescent period were being ironed out, public acceptance of A.A. grew by leaps and bounds. For this there were two principal reasons: the large numbers of recoveries, and reunited homes. These made their impressions everywhere. Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these-about two out of three-began to return as time passed. "
12x12 quote... A.A.s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual m their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole
Although AA has evolved and the understanding of some spiritual things have increesed, the influx of well meaning outside entities have watered down what was working for our early members. If taking the steps NOW can mean relief from untreated alcoholism, and if what is written in the forward in the 12x12 has come true for millions of people world wide, Why would anyone wait to do what it takes to get better? Why would some people tell others who are dying to take there time doing the steps? If you got bit by a brown recluse spider, would you wait to take the anti venom till you felt more comfortable? There is an old AA saying that says simply " if nothing changes, nothing changes "..........
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Since it cost a lot to win, and even more to loose, you and me gotta spend some time just wondering what to choose.
The really cool thing about AA is that you can do whatever you want, and you can do it for as long as you can stand it. Its funny how in 2001 the percentage of people that come to AA and stay sober for the long haul is in the single pecentage. Back in the early days it was quite a bit different.
FOREWORD TO SECOND EDITION
Figures given in this foreword describe the Fellowship as it was in 1955.
"While the internal difficulties of our adolescent period were being ironed out, public acceptance of A.A. grew by leaps and bounds. For this there were two principal reasons: the large numbers of recoveries, and reunited homes. These made their impressions everywhere. Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these-about two out of three-began to return as time passed. "
12x12 quote... A.A.s Twelve Steps are a group of principles, spiritual m their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession to drink and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole
Although AA has evolved and the understanding of some spiritual things have increesed, the influx of well meaning outside entities have watered down what was working for our early members. If taking the steps NOW can mean relief from untreated alcoholism, and if what is written in the forward in the 12x12 has come true for millions of people world wide, Why would anyone wait to do what it takes to get better? Why would some people tell others who are dying to take there time doing the steps? If you got bit by a brown recluse spider, would you wait to take the anti venom till you felt more comfortable? There is an old AA saying that says simply " if nothing changes, nothing changes "..........
well said
untreated alcoholism is untreated alcoholism, drinking or not, but then all we need to do is look around at all the untreated alcoholism in the rooms today, and it's true, it takes what it takes, the lucky thing is those that actually come in and start working the steps see through the myriad of mixed messages pretty quickly, like lets see, behind door #1 relationship and professional drama along with control issues = no steps, then behind door #2 serenity and miracles occuring daily....hmmm, which should I select?
It's easy to spot, untreated alcoholism looks like this: We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people.
why would anyone recomend that as a solution, unless it was...like here, do nothing until you are in such excruciating pain you are ready to do the steps
/shrug
The Program is The Program, and it's specific, and there is a time frame, and it has worked for millions and millions of people, it has step by step instructions, changing that is just playing God, also known as "more of the same"
like you said, if nothing changes, nothing changes, and something about expecting different results lol
-- Edited by LinBaba on Tuesday 30th of August 2011 07:14:27 PM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
I'm glad I did the steps. All of them. Thoroughly. I do have issues sometimes because I am human. I am humble enough to share good and bad times and not pretend I am all better and my only role is to share the message but not receive it. THAT is untreated alcholism.
AA won't cure all your problems but it will give you tools for living life. You will still have relationship problems. I think I know an old timer that last took a long break from here after a bad break up. It happens.
Just keep coming back :)
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 30th of August 2011 07:28:24 PM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Welcome back. Nobody is going to kick you out or off anything. Many of us, myself included abused drugs and drank alcoholicly, so please don't think your different or a "special case".
We just have a daily reprive based on the growth and maintenance of a spritual experience. Doesn't matter if we drink, pop, smoke or sniff gas or glue, we are not growing spiritualy nor coping properly if we are using stuff to get "out of our head", as you know.
Not all is lost, stay with the process and you'll never have to drink or use again.
Take Care,
rob
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Right on the money Lin and Billyjack. Would you rather have a 50% chance or a 10% chance. If you want what they got, do what they did. You know the oldtimers were concerned when the 12&12 came out that it would increase the time for taking the steps from 4 weeks to twelve weeks (notice I am talking in weeks not years)!. Often times the steps were done while the newboy was still in hospital, the sponsor writing his 4th step on the back of a business card for him, if one was written at all, because the pigeon was illiterate or too shaky to write. It was quite common too that a new man would not be allowed in the meeting until he had taken the steps, and the Akron boys often took a pigeon up stairs and took him through the steps in a single evening. This all sounds pretty tough, even prescriptive in our modern enlightened age, but we are in the business of saving lives and results are everything. Even though we think we are much smarter than these strange folk of the 1930s, we don't even come close to their sucess rates. Could it be that we no longer do what they did?
I am humble enough to share good and bad times and not pretend I am all better and my only role is to share the message but not receive it. THAT is untreated alcholism.
Ultimately you and I have a total different philosophy about what AA is, what "The Program" is, and what meetings are for, and that's cool
I was taught I bring my problems to my sponsor, and my solutions to a meeting
(Tradition 5:Each group has but one primary purposeto carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.)
So for me I bring solution to meetings and here, and my problems to my sponsor, support group, work the steps around them, and ultimately to God, there are a number of people even on this board that know a surprising amount about me that I don't share on these boards
I was taught to share my experience, strength and hope, and NOT my opinion, and to NEVER EVER EVER "you should" anyone nor give an opinion about an experience I never had, instead of sharing "you should" share "this is what I did" or "the program suggests" and "this is my experience with that"
I was taught that meetings weren't group therapy, that if I wasn't sharing "The Solution" I was adding to "the problem"
I was taught The Program was outlined in the first 164 pages of The Big Book, and if my opinion differed, it was "my Program" not "The Program" so I should probably keep it to myself
I was taught there -is- a time frame in the steps for this wonderful life saving program of ours that has saved millions of lives, that it says things like "at once" and immediately, and it DOES say "must" and even in the 12 and 12 it calls the person doing their fifth step a newcomer, which is defined as someone in their first 30 days, and it says things like "although our decision (step 3) is a crucial and vital step, it could have little or no permanent effect unless AT ONCE followed by a strenuous effort to face and be rid of those things that had been blocking us" sorry if I misquoted, that's from memory, but that isn't "some people's opinion" that is the very crux of our Program, and personally I think telling newcomers the opposite of what the Program says is incredibly selfish, self centered, and frankly irresponsible
I will share difficult situations ie; break-ups, loss, heart break and general stupidity if it serves a purpose, such as helps a newcomer, but I don't come here and dump about my day, my relationships, my job, because to me it isn't appropriate, there are folks that do that correctly, as in, "had this happen and this is how it turned out because of the new tools I learned", that stopped happening for me years ago, after a few decades it's all the same old shit for me, self self self, fear fear fear, finance, romance, and the truth is my drama doesn't interest me any more, I stopped being interesting to me years ago, and truth be told, on bad days, during bad stretches, I am sick to death of me, so I don't talk about me, although I know that is the #1 thing to talk about in meetings any more , me me me more me, what do you think of me" it just. doesn't. interest. me. any. more.
also as the years went on I developed healthy boundaries, I don't just walk up to a group of strangers and dump my innermost secrets any more, I did the first few years of sobriety, then I grew out of it, hell I used to stop people on the street and tell them about me practically...now, I have other interests...that are more interesting...then me
So it's cool, you and I are diametrically opposed on every single one of these issues, and that's cool, I call what I do "AA" and can back up every single thing out of our literature, our big book, the 12 and 12, Dr Bob and The Good Old Timers, Chuck C's book, Bill's writings, The Traditions, Joe and Charley's studies, Clancy' from LA's talks, Clarence's writings, who developed Sponsorship as we know it today in Akron and who's results beggared Bill and Bob's, they were growing by ones and two's, Akron was growing by hundreds and thousands, where the idea developed all we need is in the book, when I talk "AA" I am passing on what was passed to me, not bastardizing it and giving you "LinBaba's Program" although I say it my words, I am passing on the wisdom that was passed to me, especially by my old Grandsponsor, who got sober in 1942
What I talk about, what I say, is the result of decades of study and living the Program, not just preaching it, from doing it wrong, from doing it right, from falling down, from getting back up, from carrying others, from having newcomers live on my couch, from going into hospitals and institutions for well over ten years, from carrying my brothers and sisters when they couldn't carry themselves, and having those same people carry me when I fell and couldn't carry myself, and from taking dozens and dozens of alcoholics through the steps and from taking the steps 8 or so times myself, I speak from experience, and I pass along what was passed to me, I'm not giving an opinion about an experience that I never had, I'm not giving advice about shit I know nothing about
it's not a matter of "right and wrong", or "some people's opinion", it's a matter of "this is AA and this isn't" pure and simple, what is written in that Big Book is The Program, and what comes out of people's mouth's that disagree with it, ie -opinions- isn't, it's not rocket science here
be more then happy to be directed to any literature anywhere that says otherwise, because I do remain teachable, but when it comes to "this is AA and this isn't" it's pretty black and white, because...it is...written in black and white
So we agree to disagree without being disagreeable, and that's cool, the only time I actually get ruffled feathers is when you tell newcomers to wait a year to do the steps and call it AA, because it's not, that shit has ZERO to do with AA, AA is working the steps and then carrying the message to the still suffering alcoholic, also known as people "who haven't worked the steps" with a competent sponsor
I'm here to help newcomers pure and simple, and after a few years of reading my posts one thing should be blindingly obvious, I could give a rats ass what anyone thinks of me, seriously, I could care less, I'm here to save lives, not bitch about my day, my job and my love life
that stuff just isn't anyone's business
period
we just are on opposite sides of every single issue I discussed, brought up here tonight, and that's cool, what you do is none of my business, except when you tell newcomers to stick to steps 1-2-3 for a year, then it's my job to point out, this isn't an "opinion" issue, but actually the exact opposite of what our Program, The Big Book, the 12 and 12, our actual "Program" of AA actually says to do, so don't call that shit of taking a year to do the first 3 steps AA, because it isn't, It's the "Pink Chip Program", the actual literature says the exact opposite
sorry if that ruffles your feathers, because I like you, but that's just how that is
-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 31st of August 2011 08:24:52 AM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
It's all good Lin. I can back up everything I write and say with literature too. Not specifically on waiting to do a 4th step...but that you shouldn't proceed on any steps until your have thoroughly worked the ones before. I guess I have left myself open to be misunderstood by putting an implied timeline on that journey.
I guess it's not "wrong" to do a 4th step early. It is supposed to be done right after the 3rd step has been throroughly worked. Unfortunately, I see people who want to plow through the steps because of ego or thinking that they can bypass the even harder process of learning to live sober from day to day through basic life experiences this way. If you don't have 1 through 3 down, step 4 is near pointless. You also have no sober frame of reference to even know when you were showing character defects in the past. This is a nobrainer. You are free to go into detoxes and give shaking people with DTs pencils to do 4th steps Lin...I think you will enjoy the experience of sponsoring them and reading what they write after doing that 4th step as soon as possible. When I recently went to interview at a large rehab for a job, the interviewer asked me what I thought the purpose of rehab was. I said it was to get them to the point that they could independently work a true AA or NA program. She stated I was wrong and that it was that people in rehab were mentally unstable and they needed crisis and psychiatric stabilization. I left thinking....hrm....that job was not meant for me if they don't believe in the power of AA...I now see that there is a point to letting people grow a bit more stable and secure in their sobriety.
What then results after hasty stepwork is a person coming to a meeting saying they were in the middle of writing step 4 and they relapsed. They have no living sober experience, have not really achieved the basic coping skills to be able to handle serious self inventory...and the result is not good. This happens so frequently that there are now hordes of people that think step 4 is a big onerous and scary task that will make you drink again....and then BOOM a self fulfilling prophesy (as may have been the case in this thread).
You don't drink because of failure to do a timely step 4 so much as a failure to do steps 1 through 3 thoroughly and appropriately. If a person can really do steps 1 through 3 right in 2 months...okay....do step 4.
My sponsor had me do the steps from an experiential step work program he attended. It consisted of several real life exercises and such to learn and experience the principles of each step. I am glad I did it that way rather than just writing a bunch of crap that I would forget a few weeks later. As most of you can probably tell. It's too easy for me to just write a bunch of crap. So...it took longer to do the steps that way and I am still doing them really... I will always be doing them because I try to live through the steps. If I go into "only spread the message" mode, I will forget all the rest of the steps and start thinking I know everything.
As far as saving the mess for your sponsor and bringing the message to a meeting: That is a tricky one. Over time, I've become much more censored in what I share. In the first year, I aired all my dirty laundry in the rooms because I thought everything was a huge tragedy and I called my sponsor crying every time I stubbed my toe. Life was really painful for a while, but I grew and I stayed sober. The problems I have now are probably pretty typical of a person 3 years sober. I'm not all there all the time and I don't pretend to be. Sometimes I amaze myself at the stupid mistakes I make but I don't drink over them. That is sharing the message as best I can. I remember seeing people in meetings during my first year crying and upset because their mom died or they found out they were seriously ill and I thought, "Damn, if they can stay sober through that, so can I." It put my problems into perspective. It also made me realize I would never be alone in my problems because I had an AA family I could rely on as a safety net. This is the AA that I love and it goes beyond just the steps.
I hope other members here don't censor themselves when they are in pain. One member shared a lot about a divorce and I didn't think he was a mess and I learned a lot from reading about him go through the entire process of struggling and then acceptance. This board would suck if nobody talked about their life issues. Frankly, it kind of has being sucking lately because of that. I thought about not sharing on my relationship issues on here and decided I should because I need help as much as I give it. That problem has and is working itself out and, yet again, I didn't drink over it. And believe me...my sponsor heard about that mess way too much lol.
Lastly...one of the first things I learned in AA was to IDENTIFY AND NOT COMPARE. Who are LIN BABA (Andrew) and Pinkchip (Mark)? UM...two people who believe in AA and somehow are both part of a miraculous minority of people who stay sober using the program. WAY MORE IN COMMON than different.
So Lin - Here's to both our ego's being deflated again....AAAHH I feel better. LOL.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
well I agree with pretty much most of that, we are on the same team, we favor hospitalization for the alcoholic that is still befogged, and we don't rush the newcomer before he is ready, however I believe step 3 is steps 4~9 well, and 10~12 broken down into bite sized pieces, working steps 4~9 teaches us how to do step 3, of course I am only speaking of my own experience, well, that and countless sponsees many of whom are rapidly approaching the 20 year marks themselves
i have ~zero problem~ with anyone who says "well ~I~ had to stick chicken feathers up my ass to stay sober", there are a lot of ways to climb the mountain, but I have a huge problem with people who say "~you~ have to shove chicken feathers up your ass to stay sober" and call it AA
see the difference? one is experience one is telling someone to do something that is actually not in the literature
and it is all good, you have grown a TON in the last few years, I saw a post the other day where you stuck ~strictly~ to your own experience and didn't give one piece of advice and I literally cheered out loud
over the years I have shared about deaths, births, cried about break~ups, I grew up in the program, my strife/relationship stuff I share in a different 12 step program, everything else has been uneventful ya know?
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
we still have some basic philosophical differences, such as I say work the steps to feel better, you say learn how to live sober then do the steps, i say we share our experience, you like to give advice about things you have no experience with, but yes, more similarities then differences and strangely enough I consider you a friend lol
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Likewise. I tend to give advice when people come asking for help. That is second nature (perhaps a codependent trait) but also something that motivated me into the field I am in. Alanon and AA seem to discourage giving advice. Despite this, I mostly see people going "In my experience, when I faced this, I did this (and then insert advice here and pretend it's not advice)." I'm still a newcomer in a lot of ways. The shiny sobriety halo is starting to disappear and I am starting to listen more and just offer solution when asked. It's against my grain cuz of what I do and where I'm at in sobriety. It is something I need to learn though.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Likewise. I tend to give advice when people come asking for help. That is second nature (perhaps a codependent trait) but also something that motivated me into the field I am in. Alanon and AA seem to discourage giving advice. Despite this, I mostly see people going "In my experience, when I faced this, I did this (and then insert advice here and pretend it's not advice)."
This was actually pretty important to me, like talking solution now, but experience is:
I tried this, and got this result (failure divorce, ridicule, suffering) then I tried this and got this result (paid more, laid well and often)
so it's literally not "advice" it's "what worked for me"
or in other words:
What I(t) was like, what happened, What I(t's) like now
it's the foundation of the program, which only works with one alcoholic talking to another, because only an alcoholic understands the alcoholic hell because he has lived it, we just extend that through the entire program, and the truth is, it is one of, if not the most important thing we have, in it is anonymity, no leadership, spirituality, it's,....everything, experience and not advice is our entire foundation that we build on, without experience, there would be no AA....at all
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
A privilege to follow this discussion by thoughtful, considerate and well informed men. I wish I had the gift to express myself half as well as you guys. I too am very happy to be part of the miralulous minority of people who stay sober using the AA program. And not that long ago I might have settled for that. But then I learned that the miraculous minority used to be a majority, and that was my wake up call! As the years go on the minority gets smaller. A newcomer was heard to say "these oldtimers are a bit dogmatic aren't they?" To which his sponsor replied "that's how they got to be oldtimers".
I learn more from Lin than anyone else....I actually pick up my big book and 12 and 12 to try and make sure I'm not talking out my ass. Nobody else gets me to do that lol.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
The only requirement for membership is "the desire" an unmeasurable quotient.Thank you for your honesty,the antidote to our diseased thinking. We are "powerless" when any driving force in our lives is beyond or out of control.Reservations are places in our program that we have reserved for relapse.They may be built around the idea that we can retain a small measure of control,like we could deal but not use,hang in bars and not drink,play with people who are active,using in areas of activity something we can't face in sobriety,a death ,loss of job etc.We are masters of self deceit.Sometimes these reservations are tucked away so far in back of our minds we are not fully concious of them..Putting down the substance is only the top of the iceberg,necessary absolutely if we are to move forward,but if that were the only case once we lose the obsession and compulsion to use ,we would all be cured' We are never cured,but we do recover a day at a time.This disease is "insidious" lurking,sneaky,overtakes before we are aware" etc.(see Webster's defintion)We have to stay vigilante.You've taken some time to beat yourself up ,now its time to get back up, dust yourself off, take a look at what your going to do different this time.We are alcoholics,WE DRINK.WE may be addicts,we use,but there is another way.When the pain outweighs the pleasure ,you'll make a decision to go on to the same jails,institutions,deriliction or death or find a new way to live.We can offer only a message of hope and a promise of freedom from active addiction,takes vigilance,daily work,a fit spiritual condition and the grace and mercy ,above all ,from your Higher Power. Ain't no big I's or little U's up in here,we all suffer from a devastating illness,some are sicker than others and we all are responsible for our own recoveries. Make today ,day 1 again and move forward,keep coming back okay.You are an alcoholic if you say you are, so are WE........
