Hi. I'm Mary and I'm an alcoholic. I've been "sober" since 2000, but had stopped going to meetings until last night, not so much because I thought I could do it on my own, but that I moved across the country and kept letting other things become "more important" than finding a new home group. Ha!
At any rate, last night, I went to my first meeting in years, shared that it had been a long time, and that, while I had other sober alcoholics in my life, I knew it didn't count as a meeting, and that I was in dangrer of sliding down that slippery slope. I then said that I knew I was babbling and needed to "shut up and listen."
The next sharer then tore me a new one for saying anything. This person looked straight into my eyes and yelled, loudly, at me, and in response to what I had shared, and I found myself sitting on my hands so I wouldn't get up and run out the door.
I get the whole tough-love thing, and he was right that I needed to get the cotton out of my ears and put it in my mouth. I wasn't sure what I should do besides recite "principals over personalities" over and over in my head.
Is this what I should expect? I thought that being honest about my time away from the program was the right thing to do, rather than pretending all was hunky dory, or even that I'd been drinking so I could have the status of an official newcomer. I will admit that at one point during the crosstalk, I almost wish I HAD been drinking, because if I was going to be yelled at, I'd at least like to feel like I deserved it.
If that's endorsed meeting protocol, then I would simply find a new meeting. We all feel like doing that sometimes (heck, I've bured up bandwith on here dealing with the impulse to walk about of meetings where serial relapsers go on for five minutes about how they've got it this time -- and these are most certainly people who have not been sober since 2000). But most of us don't. That's not tough love, that's BS.
Well now, this ain't tough love, this is an ego the size a texas going on the rampage.
If someone would shout at me in a meeting and tell me to STFU and listen, then maybe my ego would find an outlet through a straight right to the kisser. And that's not healthy. But someone could say that they experienced similar and found that STFU and listen worked for them. That's not crosstalk nor advice giving, that's sharing experience. Isn't there a safety card at this meeting - behaviour likely to intimidate, threaten, bully will not be tolerated?
Try again and if ot's the same, have a word with the meeting chair at some point to find out if that meeting finds this behaviour acceptable. It takes balls to call out a cross sharer, but it either is done or you vote with your feet and find a meeting that suits you better.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
Nothing and no one is OK'd to do this, and you don't have to put up with it. Horrible bully; if the secretary didn't stop it, then either they aren't doing their job, don't have a clue, or this is typical for this meeting.
Can you talk to the secretary?
And see if this is a one person or one time event or if this is typical for the group.
If you get no joy, call intergroup. While they aren't a regulatroy body, if things are this out of line, the meeting is affecting AA as a whole. Listing as a group in directories means that a group is atonamous but having a newcomer bully isn't part of the program. (Traditions).
Something is seriously wrong in that group.
Sorry this happened to you; sounds like they really need you at that group - have you considered going to their business meeting and becoming thier new GSR?
In the end for me it's an invitation to judge my own recovery...all of it. Stuff like that is also done on this board and still it is an invitation to judge my own recovery. If I take it as an invitation to willingly participate and throw my peace of mind and serenity out the door along with my relationship with my HP and then resort to pre-program tools I'm making the wrong choice. When I was drinking my reaction to any of these preconceived insults and attacks only needed to me justified by me alone and then since I was introduced to a power greater than myself and all of my reactions a whole new catalogue of choices show up. We have no leaders...just imperfect servants (like ourselves or more personally me) so I need to not react but think, pray and respond and then accept.
I learn from not doing as much as the other. (((hugs)))
amamsneb wrote:The next sharer then tore me a new one for saying anything. This person looked straight into my eyes and yelled, loudly, at me, and in response to what I had shared, and I found myself sitting on my hands so I wouldn't get up and run out the door.
Wow, I just had to say, I've been to at least 500 AA meetings in the past year and a half and I have NEVER witnessed this sort of behavior. I hope it doesn't stop you from finding a new meeting to go back to. Congrats on your sober time!
I remember once coming to a meeting and bitching and moaning about something, and an old timer looked at me with an upside down smile/sneer and said "maybe you're just unteachable".
I guess by that time, I had been around long enough to realize that there are some people who have some pat responses they give to various situations, that have little to do with the person they're talking to, and are generally given without having listened to the person at all. Sort of like I start out saying, "I just don't know what I'm doing wrong in my relationship..." and he arbitrarily pulls out whiney relationship re-run ballbust response #1a and cues it for broadcast as soon as it's his turn to talk.
There are people who absolutely do not listen to what you say, or the context in which you say it, but rather listen to key words and then jump all over them. My late sponsor was like that, and I learned to just shut up and not even *try* to explain myself when he did that, because he was on a roll and had already made up his mind what I said and had already fired off his chain reaction to it, and he wasn't stopping for nothing.
Great example: When I was about 2 years sober, I was doing a gratitude list and was just amazed at how many good things were coming to me. I had accomplished some things and worked hard at them. I was thinking how much they meant to me, because I worked for them - as opposed to having them handed to me. I was thinking about how I used to fantasize about striking it rich, winning the lottery... and how little those things would mean if I had just won the lottery rather than working for them. So I start to tell my sponsor about my gratitude, but I apparently mentioned the word "lottery" too early, and he said "Why are you thinking about that? You aren't going to win the goddamn lottery!!" He proceded to bust my balls for my stupid fantasy, and probably went to his grave thinking he heard what he thought he heard. He never heard my gratitude part, or anything else. Yeah, I could have worded it more up front, but I was sort of doing a compare and contrast (like you do in freshman English class), and he rode off into the sunset on one word.
Yeah, people sometimes just don't listen. I'm one of them too, but if I'm not listening I'm usually going to go "uh - what was the question??" rather than grabbing two or three words I thought I heard and composing an attack from it.
Anyway, I tell this story because even people I really loved - and my sponsor certainly was one of them - could have their head up their ass sometimes. AA has taught me a lot about tolerance. I had to become tolerant to *get* sober, not just to do 12-step work. I had to tolerate the myriad of people around me and accept that what they were telling me was their own personal experience (even if it was based on two partially-heard words out of a paragraph...lol) and as such was valid... and up to me to decide how I could use it.
In a case like this, since the individual (and thus the group) who attacked you is so obviously violating the boundaries of meeting custom and good taste, I would make that my last meeting there. But I probably would not have your strength and restraint and would have used his violation to do a little violating of my own, and probably would have bounced right back at the guy with some remark about how insecure he must feel that he needs to cut people down that way.
Unless you come to a meeting saying things that are demonstrably false, like "I can drink moderately and you guys should help", then you have the right to cordial treatment.
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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.
A chairperson should be able to direct to the issue of crosstalk to take place after the meeting especially one that seems "attacking" and not condusive to recovery. For me, I would have to look at my inventory first, and then I would address the person individualy and share how I feel about the interaction at the end of the meeting in private,freeing any resentments for me,even though it may not work for the other person.If a chair let it get to that stage and another person" "crosstalked" in a condescending or unloving manner then I may think of finding another meeting? We are a rough mixture of people from all areas of life and these occurences do happen.. The truth will set us free ,but sometimes it will first cause pain..in this situation,I believe you held on well. Pray for that person!!!! Principles before personalities yes,someones beating post,in a manner not condusive to how we do meetings(crosstalking) no.....Dont let this incident run you out of the rooms altogether though.Respect/loving and caring manner/if it ain't spiritual it may not be practical ,we all desreve that..........thanks for sharing....newcomers listen up!!
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Thanks so much all. I really appreciate the validation and am looking to find a new meeting. Looks like I may need to start a women's meeting around here, because there aren't any for 100 miles, and well...there are parts of my story I don't share with men, at the advice of my old sponsor. That will be a new adventure....I've never started a meeting before. Yipe! :)
A chairperson should be able to direct to the issue of crosstalk to take place after the meeting especially one that seems "attacking" and not condusive to recovery.
That is exactly correct, regardless if my share was "offtopic" or offended anyone or wasn't "sober" enough, it's the secretaries job to protect the integrity of the meeting
this is me not going off on a long rant about how people don't -really- know what it entails to be a "trusted servant" because their sponsors haven't taught them
it's our job to pick our trusted servants and then "back them" and it's our job -as- trusted servants to know what that responsibility entails
I don't even know I would go to a different meeting, AA is full of sick people, if I boycotted every meeting with sick individuals in it I wouldn't have any meetings to go to, but it's also my job to protect myself, and if someone "crosstalks" and starts attacking me in a share I have no problem wlooking at the secretary and stating "do your job, this is crosstalk, attacking, and inappropriate and condusive to recovery" and if nothing is done getting up and walking out
it's up to me to take care of myself ultimately
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Thanks so much all. I really appreciate the validation and am looking to find a new meeting. Looks like I may need to start a women's meeting around here, because there aren't any for 100 miles, and well...there are parts of my story I don't share with men, at the advice of my old sponsor. That will be a new adventure....I've never started a meeting before. Yipe! :)
What a great idea to make a difference... I just wanted to encourage you! I only go to women's meetings (there's one in my part of town every night, thank goodness for large cities!) and it has a huge impact on my sobriety. I have plenty of male friends but something about having a group of just women makes me feel more comfortable, it's a really welcoming environment.
I must have lead a sheltered life. I never heard the term crosstalk until earlier this year and when I asked some other old timers about it, they too were unfamiliar with the term. Of course I am better informed now, and I couldn't agree more that the treatment Mary received was completely inappropriate but I would have called it sheer bad manners and ignorance and yes it should be the job of the chair/secretary (our trusted servants) to control the meeting in this respect.
A lot of ones future behaviour in the fellowship can be influenced by what one sees and hears in the first meeting or two. In my case I was visited by a member before my first meeting and among other things was given an idea of what to expect and how to behave. He met me at the first few meetings and introduced me around and made sure I got to meet some good sober people. When I first spoke I received a little positive feedback and encouragement from the chair and other members which helped me feel that I belonged. It was also frequently stated that we have one mouth and two ears so we should listen at least twice as much as we talk.
I went away to another town for a few years and when I came back it had all changed. The chair never gave any feed back and it felt like I was talking to my self. It took a while to get used to but I have never lost the habit of offering an encouraging word to another member or acknowledging that what they have said made sense to me and or helped me directly. So earlier this year I was at this meeting where I was told off for identifying with another member, the chair told me this cross talk was a very bad thing. I don't recall seeing this in any of the literature, but maybe I missed something.
The very next speaker, a young woman who had been sitting outside the meeting for most of it and was in a bad way, was then permitted to attack the entire group expressing this huge resenment in no uncertain terms, using the strongest language, about not being included or something. Once the rant was finished the chair syncophantically thanked her for her honesty an wonderful sharing and she then retired outside. The chair later stated that they believed that no one had the right to control a meeting or pick speakers or moderate what any speaker might say (apart from cross talk that is).
Another fellow member came to AA in more recent times. He was a strong believer that sharing the problem is the solution, one of the worst dumpers I have seen. But when you look at his induction to AA it was markedly different to mine. He made a phone call and was told to go to a meeting near him. No visit, no 12 step work, just turn up at the meeting. Not all meetings run that well and this was one of those.The meeting seemed to be full of those folks who struggle and dump so he got the idea that that was what you do. Moreover, at the end of the meeting he was completely ignored, left standing on his own. The next week he went back, bearing in mind what he learned at the first meeting, feeling that he would have to make his presence felt if he was to get any help. Of course he demanded to be heard and then dumped all over the group. He thought that was his right, and he continued in this vane for quite a while - there were plenty of like minded folk to encourage him too. So we reap what we sow. Sending folk directly to meetings is just a cop out. The new comer deserves better than that.!
We have women's meetings here and a large proportion of our female members only go to these. As a result, the majority of ordinary meetings have few or no women and are much the poorer for that. I can accept that some men say things in meetings that they shouldn't, things that can be very upsetting for women and this has had the dreadful consequence of driving the women out into their own "safe" meetings, but my home group is absolutely committed to providing a safe environment for all. The unintended consequence of this significant group not participating in the wider fellowship occurs when it is linked to our modern 12 step philosophy - don't go and see them, just send them to a meeting, and what do they walk into? Meetings with no women. How does this help the female new comer?
You might be new to "AA" but you're not new to the world. Keep plugging along Amamsneb. You'll eventually find a place where you truly feel welcome. Believe me, you will.
I must have lead a sheltered life. I never heard the term crosstalk until earlier this year and when I asked some other old timers about it, they too were unfamiliar with the term. Of course I am better informed now, and I couldn't agree more that the treatment Mary received was completely inappropriate but I would have called it sheer bad manners and ignorance and yes it should be the job of the chair/secretary (our trusted servants) to control the meeting in this respect.
A lot of ones future behaviour in the fellowship can be influenced by what one sees and hears in the first meeting or two. In my case I was visited by a member before my first meeting and among other things was given an idea of what to expect and how to behave. He met me at the first few meetings and introduced me around and made sure I got to meet some good sober people. When I first spoke I received a little positive feedback and encouragement from the chair and other members which helped me feel that I belonged. It was also frequently stated that we have one mouth and two ears so we should listen at least twice as much as we talk.
I went away to another town for a few years and when I came back it had all changed. The chair never gave any feed back and it felt like I was talking to my self. It took a while to get used to but I have never lost the habit of offering an encouraging word to another member or acknowledging that what they have said made sense to me and or helped me directly. So earlier this year I was at this meeting where I was told off for identifying with another member, the chair told me this cross talk was a very bad thing. I don't recall seeing this in any of the literature, but maybe I missed something.
The very next speaker, a young woman who had been sitting outside the meeting for most of it and was in a bad way, was then permitted to attack the entire group expressing this huge resenment in no uncertain terms, using the strongest language, about not being included or something. Once the rant was finished the chair syncophantically thanked her for her honesty an wonderful sharing and she then retired outside. The chair later stated that they believed that no one had the right to control a meeting or pick speakers or moderate what any speaker might say (apart from cross talk that is).
Another fellow member came to AA in more recent times. He was a strong believer that sharing the problem is the solution, one of the worst dumpers I have seen. But when you look at his induction to AA it was markedly different to mine. He made a phone call and was told to go to a meeting near him. No visit, no 12 step work, just turn up at the meeting. Not all meetings run that well and this was one of those.The meeting seemed to be full of those folks who struggle and dump so he got the idea that that was what you do. Moreover, at the end of the meeting he was completely ignored, left standing on his own. The next week he went back, bearing in mind what he learned at the first meeting, feeling that he would have to make his presence felt if he was to get any help. Of course he demanded to be heard and then dumped all over the group. He thought that was his right, and he continued in this vane for quite a while - there were plenty of like minded folk to encourage him too. So we reap what we sow. Sending folk directly to meetings is just a cop out. The new comer deserves better than that.!
We have women's meetings here and a large proportion of our female members only go to these. As a result, the majority of ordinary meetings have few or no women and are much the poorer for that. I can accept that some men say things in meetings that they shouldn't, things that can be very upsetting for women and this has had the dreadful consequence of driving the women out into their own "safe" meetings, but my home group is absolutely committed to providing a safe environment for all. The unintended consequence of this significant group not participating in the wider fellowship occurs when it is linked to our modern 12 step philosophy - don't go and see them, just send them to a meeting, and what do they walk into? Meetings with no women. How does this help the female new comer?
God Bless,
I agree that women should be able and willing to show up to mixed meetings as well as closed women's meetings, if only to be there for the newcomer female who needs the experience, strength and hope of another woman. And I can handle the occasional rude comment by a man. However there are parts of my story that I don't share with men for self-preservation. I was "13th stepped" a couple of times in my early recovery because I didn't take my sponsor's advice about that, and I listen now.
I too was 13th stepped early in sobriety and Im so thankful for my sponsor who guided me to safety. And I have never shared anything personal at a meeting ... that 'stuff' was saved for my sponsor.
