A son and girlfriend want to move in, they say they are getting clean and sober. What expectations should I think about? Neither one works, they are trying to get back on their feet. Words of wisdom, experience would be appreciated. I do attend Alanon.
Welcome to MIP Nancy. You don't say whether or not your in the program (AA), so I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume your not. I only assume that because you used the "E" word...expectations. In the fellowship of AA, that's not a word we like to use. My sponsor tells me that expectations are the start of a resentment, and I believe him. No one will ever live up to MY expectations, because as much as I still hate it I'm still a little selfish (progress not perfection, right?) How long have you been in Al-Anon? What do they say about it? Seems to me all you can do is lay down some ground rules, and stick to them. As an alcoholic, I really only learned by experiencing the consequences for my actions. I'm sure Al-Anon has taught you about enabling. I had a few of those in my life before I got sober, and until they stopped I wasn't getting any better. You can support and love him, but you also will need to stick to your guns. I'm sure you'll hear some good stuff from those with more experience than me (there's allot around here).
Brian
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Nothing ever truly dies. The universe wastes nothing. Everything is simply, transformed. :confuse:
The first thing that sort of caught my eye was the word "getting" clean and sober, they are clean and sober, I am assuming.
And as an Alanoner, as Brian said, you should know all about Enabling. And more importantly how to avoid any enabling.
As a Recovering Alcoholic, let's say it was me and my Son and his Girlfriend wanted to move in. I would sit down by myself and make a list of rules that would have to be adhered to - or out you go.
My list would look something like this:
AA Meetings or NA Meetings, and how many? per week, and I would tell them that it would be a requirment for living in my home.
Housing and Meals, how long would they anticipate that it will take looking for work, and finding some work, before they are paying for their own food, and contributing to the cost of living there.
and the biggest of all, any drinking, bottle, or drugs in the house or looking and sounding like they are doing the same and hiding it, confrontation time.
How old are the two of them, is this there first try at getting clean and sober?
If you can apply some "tough love to this new sceneario" an by that I mean just following up and everyword, and if they slip back to useing and drinking. out on their Butts they go.
Please right us back with more info, ages, length of "getting" clean and sober?
You are in Alanon because you were related to ?????
Wish I could be more hepful, so I look forward to hearing back from you.....
New People in AA first need to find a Sponsor, concetrate on digging into the 12 Steps of Recovery, that is where the Sponsor comes in, (same sex Person) as a guide on the work that needs to be done.
Personally, I'd do as Nancy Reagon suggested and "just say no"!!!! Where are they moving from? They say they are "getting" clean & sober---sounds like they really aren't there yet. Toni's got the short list on how to protect yourself and hopefully be of some help, while not enabling. You may want to search your heart to see if you have what it takes to throw them out--even call the cops--if it all goes south and they won't leave.
I've let a few people crash on my couch while they were getting sober, I had hard and fast rules that were non-negotiable, they do 90 meetings in 90 days, no if's ands or buts, they got a sponsor, they started working the steps, they showed me their 30, 60, and 90 day chips, they got a job within that 90 days and at 90 days we were looking at getting them into a sober living home
Any deviation, they were out, I didn't like their attitude, they were out, thing is about "real" alcoholics, addicts and junkies we will NOT get sober as long as we can find one more person to enable us and co-sign our bullshit, as long as we can avoid the consequences of our actions we keep drinking, most of the time that means as long as we can bullshit mom to give us a place to live while we "are trying" to get sober, we keep drinking and using.
period
The three men I remember off the top of my head, two are still sober today, one has 12? years, the other is coming up on 20 years, one, no wait, there was two that got about 5 years and then "went back out", I never had to throw anyone out while they were on my couch because I made damn sure they meant business and I made damn sure they knew I meant business.
When I had been around for about ten years I tried with my sister and it was a hideous failure, it was on again off again for a year or two until I finally had to just throw her out, I wasn't able to enforce the boundaries with a family member like I was to young men I didn't know as well, and I had a LOT of experience with helping people sober up, it just doesn't work with family members, or it didn't for me I should say, years later my sister DID contact me when she got sober but she went into her OWN rehab, and got her OWN support group, she did it herself,, abeit with a little assistance from the court, I would meet up with her at meetings and show my support like that but I learned my lesson the hard way, don't mix family and program, that's why half our name is anonymous
When I have questions about helping someone get sober I go to who "wrote the book" on getting sober, and I am not exagerating, he wrote the book that has gotten millions and millions of alcoholics sober, let's see what he has to say about it:
If someone approached me today, family member or no and asked to live in say my toolshed out back of my garage, I would ask "How many meetings have you gone to so far?
If they said none, I would say, "I'm sorry, you haven't shown willingness, I can't help you"
If they said they had been attending meetings, I would ask how many, if they sounded like they were half assing it and weren't going to one every day since they made the decision, same answer, "I am sorry, I can't help you"
I wouldn't telegraph my intentions so they couldn't hustle me, so IF they had been attending daily meetings I would ask them if they had gotten a sponsor, and about the steps, I have been doing this a LONG time so I usually have a pretty good gut feeling about who is going to make it and who isn't, preachers always drink, and the people who seem over-enthusiastic, like hustlers always drink, sobriety requires complete and utter defeat, and total willingness, these qualities can not be faked, nor can open mindedness about the whole "God" question, utter defeat brings with it utter open-mindedness, and total willingness to go to ANY length...
If I had ANY questions about any of these qualities, "No I can't help you"
period
If I were convinced, I'd lay down the rules
90 in 90, get a slip signed
one of you has a job by day 30, the other by day 60
11PM curfew
I want to see the 30,60,90 day chips
I would visit with them frequently and maybe after a few weeks even ask to attend an open meeting with them like, what meeting are you going to right now? blah blah....OK let's go, I'll give you a ride...watch their faces...if they don't know the way to the meeting and aren't greeted by some new friends and even hug some people, they aren't "doing the deal"
If they do the 90 in 90 the changes will occur rapidly and be dramatic, they will be enthusiastic about sobriety and wish to talk to you about it, they will start using phrases you haven't heard before, they will "take your inventory" and maybe even decide you have a drinking problem, they will start giving you advice about your alanon program, but overall they will be HAPPY and BUSY, they will voluntarily begin to attend more then one meeting a day
If they have a grudging attitude and aren't changing dramatically, out they go
at 90 days they move out to a sober living environment
If you can be this hard-assed with your son, go for it, if you can't, it will just be painful for everyone concerned, humans are like dogs, they thrive best in an environment with clear cut boundaries that are ENFORCED, if they know they can't get away with something, they don't try, if they think they CAN get away with something, they will try, this is one of the basic premises of alanon is we teach people how to treat us and we allow them to do so
I could do it with young men, and would do so again, I couldn't do it with family, and I will never try again, so saying no isn't failure, it's wisdom
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Thank You for your responses, I have more to think about.
A little more info, they are both in their middle 20's. He's been drinking for years and I think her addiction has been about a year. They have now been clean and sober for 5 days.......
I understand I must put down boundaries, but yet not have expectations, kinda confusing.
Family is very different as there is more emotion involved. I am trying my best to remained detached.
I am thankful to you for posting, I like to hear from someone who has experience.
It remains to be seen if they are serious about quiting their addictions. I hope with studying reading and posting I will not get into the enabling trap.
Thank You for your support it is very much appreciated.
I did my share of drinking and am now recovered, and continually keep a vigil of my well being......
I understand I must put down boundaries, but yet not have expectations, kinda confusing.
Nancy 45
I would expect some cooperation on their part, and to make sure their committed to follow certain criteria -like rules for example. I would make sure they get proactive about sobering up and attending meetings would certainly be a priority, as well as suitable employment. One thing an alcoholic doesn't need is an enabler. I suggest you set the ground rules and stick to them and if there is ever a time where a firm resolve is needed to deal with rule breakers-like kicking them out- then you must be willing to part ways no matter how difficult that may sound. It might sound like tough love to some people but remember it's life and death were talking about here, so don't hesitate to act accordingly despite your relationship, it just might be the saving grace your son really needs.
I hope your son finds the help he needs to start the sobering up process -one day at a time. Sometimes, Alcoholics need a wake up call, to nudge him in the right direction and maybe this one is his -we hope. We will pray for his recovery and for your well being as well. Keep us informed about his progress and never give up hope -we won't, either should you.
-- Edited by Mr_David on Friday 13th of May 2011 12:55:42 AM
About your asking "I like to hear from someone who has experience".
If you will re read the Post above you, LinBaba's experience was first hand. He has shared in private the living Hell he went through, and take that to heart.
I did some volunteering a long time ago in a detox, for people with 1 to 5 days of not drinking......Loved everyone of them, but would I allow them to come live with me, absolutely not.
Please keep us posted on how things are with you.
And you said you were recovered or recovering, so welcome to the family here at MIP.
Well I can't see that any of this is working for the positive. The girl left a few days ago. My son was trying to get her back here, but I told him if she comes back to my house she has to face me and at least say hello and thankyou and not just hide in the bdroom, well she didnt return. I'm glad. I gave my son a few chores to do and he didnt complete them. It really upset me they were easy things. I was upset and called him and told him I was angry he didnt do what I asked, he didnt say much. So now I havent seen him for a couple of days. A couple of days ago I bought an AA book and a few more about getting sober, but he said he appreciated the thought but take them back. Doesnt sound like he is really sincere about this sobering up. He has 2 more weeks here to save his money like I promised then he is out. I'm not good at this. I am trying. This too shall pass (I hope). One thing I find hard to do is to separate natural behavior vs. disease behavior. This takes alot of experience, I think. Although a person has the disease, he/she also has personality and habits, maybe this can't be separated.....I'm not sure.
My son is very hard headed, he stopped smoking without any help, I think maybe he thinks he can stop drinking by himself. I have heard of some that do, but thats probably pretty rare.
see, this is where I'd "lay down the law" with a young man (sponsee) and enforce my boundary pitilessly with someone I didn't know but not with a family member. the deal is 90 and 90, getting a sponsor and working the steps, that is "rent", want to get sober on your own? fine, there's the door, getting sober on your own means just that, on your own aka "not under my roof", want my help follow my rules, this is not subject to negotiation. don't do the chores? out. don't go to meetings? out. don't want the big book I bought you in an accidental codependent slip (because for me bringing people "helpful" reading material is a full blown codie slip that has yet to not lead to me getting resentful) out
and i mean out ~now~ not tomorrow, not the next day ~now~
that's why helping family members get sober doesn't work very often, it,s not them it's us and our inability to hold a clear and firm boundary, we teach them they can blow us off, we teach them they can hustle us, we teach them our boundaries have as much structure as a wet paper bag that collapses in the first strong wind, oh sure we yell, rant, rave, get angry, frustrated TRY oh god we try, but we go crazy and get sicker with codependency and they get sicker with alcoholism because we are enabling them although we dont think we are.
thats why with the anonymous young men it's easy
two words spoken calmly at the first sign of any of that bullshit
get out
my life is too short to help people who dont want help, its like teaching a pig to sing (pigs cant hold a tune worth a sh-t) the pig just gets angry and I get frustrated
not your fault, not his fault, unless our boundaries are firm we teach people they can ignore them, family is rough, he wants to get sober "his way"? fine,big world out there, let me know how it goes
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Excellent advise LinBaba, sounds like you have it down. Thank You very much. N
I will let you know how it goes.
I have received lots of good advise, and have read lots of experiences. It seems I have learned more on this website than anywhere else. I live in a very rural area and meetings are few and far between. thank you again. N I am sincerely working on my self.
Hi Nancy, a lot of qood stuff in this thread. I'd qo with NO. The chances of both of them qettinq sober toqther is very slim. Alcoholics are mostly too immature to be in a relationship. The alcoholic leans on alcohol to deal with the stress of beinq in a relationship, which are larqely dysfunctional. Take away the alcohol and most relationships don't survive recovery, or the recovery (sobriety) doesn't survive the dysfunctional relationship. Add to this that alcoholics have parental and authority issues and will be thrust back into a childhood situation and under close scrutiny. I'll probably raise some objections for this. But I'd be inclined to have a linear discussion with the son like this: Havinq to move back in with your parent is a siqn of failure, which points to the failure of the relationship. It's easier to learn how to just care of yourself, then when your doinq a qood job at that (physically, financially, spiritually), consider lookinq for a qirl to date that is doinq a qreat job of takinq care of herself (physically, financially, spiritually...)
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 15th of May 2011 11:59:24 PM
