I drink too much. Supose thats obviouse considering iv just joined an alcoholics website.
What im really looking for is a secular perspective on alcoholism.
I want to sort out my drinking but i dont want the whole god stuff rammed down my throat.
Is this site fairly secualr? If not can anyone direct me to a site that is?
Have i been drinking today? Yes.
Am I sober right now? No.
I am unfamiliar with having support form people as i see my problem as personal. But from what i have seen many people use a thought of a magic man up in the sky to help them.
I dont wish to seem patronising, its just this perspective does nothing for me at all.
You can probably tell my defences are up right now, as are most peoples in new environments.
I guess the long and the short of it is... i drink to much.. help..
Aloha Mooncalf...Your intro causes me to smile and reflect with deep humor and humility cause I remember how I got into recovery and still thought I had my brain in tact and my thinking and perspective was valid.
When I got into recovery I had many ideas about what was good for me and right for me and what I needed and then I woke up...I had admitted I was alcoholic and that my life was unmanageable. I am addicted to a mind and mood altering chemical and attempt to act like I knew what was going on and what was good for me in front of thousands of sober people who knew what it was all about and knew that they knew what it was all about while I on the other had was clueless...Didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know.
It was suggested to me to sit and listen and learn and not speak because I didn't know anything about alcoholism or how to arrest it in my life. That was true in the fullest and so I did for over 90 days...attend meetings daily and then think about where I should be. I didn't want another religious experience so I was also leary about people trying to postelisize me. I've been in for a long time now and that has never happened. We don't cram God or any other idea of our own about a God down another alcoholics throat...that is a fear you have, not the membership. The program does suggest that we have a power greater than ourselves which will lead us to sanity because by our own self power and management styles we have arrived with a life threatening, incurable, disease asking others for help.
I use to think of the metaphor of myself floundering in heavy seas needing some one to toss me a life ring but wanting to choose the color and shape of it. I needed to grab a life ring only. So I learned how to sit down and listen while understanding that it was these people who knew and who could save my life if I allowed it while I was standing outside of death's door ready to knock again. My first practice of a power greater than myself wasn't God...it was a doorknob; I need a doorknob to open doors for myself and could not without one.
I also brought fears along with me and that was the reason for my resistance; lack of trust and absence of love. I am alcoholic and fear is the emotion I practiced most till I got here. Maybe it is that way for you also and I would suggest that you also put it aside, go to the white pages of your local telephone book and look up the hotline number for AA and call and get the meeting places and times where you will find us personally and come on in early to grab a chair and browse the literature. Then forcing your mind open sit down and listen.
We are all secular. We are not a religion. Our journey is spiritual.
Keep coming back.
-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 01:58:44 PM
-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 15th of March 2011 01:59:55 PM
Well guy, for what it's worth I came in an atheist, and proud of it. Nobody ever tried to talk me out of it or change my belief system or lay a God & guilt trip on me: NEVER.
My notion of a power greater than myself is nobody else's business. And the 3rd step's "God, as we understood Him" leaves enough wiggle room for an 18 wheeler to drive through--whatever you understand, don't understand, believe or don't believe, falls under the beautifully vague "as we understood". The only thing that matters is a belief that I can't do this thing solely under my own power. If I coulda, I woulda, ya know?
The effectiveness of believing that "other" than Self could get me out of the mess I was in was literally life-saving. Not overnight, but life-saving, and then life-giving, over time. The point is that rarely can we stop on our own, stay stopped, and attain full restoration to a mode of healthy living that we enjoy, and no longer leave wreckage in our wake while doing it.
Hey MC, The site itself reflects AA which ends up as non secular as a program that calls for a "spiritual awakening" can get. Like Leeu said, your concept of a Higher Power is your own and will not be questioned. You should re read Jerry F's post when you are sober. Jerry has helped many many people to a life free of booze and pain. If thats what you are looking for, this is a good site to start on, but we will all tell you we mirror the AA program and that requires meetings and a sponsor. Good luck! Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Im a tad more drunk now than I was when i made my first message but I can do without the seemingly poetical metaphorical rhetoric.
Personal experiences are fine but making out that experiences have some poetical metephorical truth to them again dont do much for me.
Sorry im gettin a bit too drunk right now.
Jerry does what poetical on occasion but I gotta say he was spot on nuts and bolts this time, try giving what he wrote a re-read, might be a life raft there, might not be your color of flavor, but it will save your life if you are desperate enough, because this gig has to grasped with the desperation of a drowning man or it don't work
keep coming back or keep drinking, and the desperation may come, it might not, either way, we will be here, having a pretty good time actually, and we don't drink anymore, if that's something that interests you, stick around
Aloha Mooncalf...Your intro causes me to smile and reflect with deep humor and humility cause I remember how I got into recovery and still thought I had my brain in tact and my thinking and perspective was valid.
When I got into recovery I had many ideas about what was good for me and right for me and what I needed and then I woke up...I had admitted I was alcoholic and that my life was unmanageable. I am addicted to a mind and mood altering chemical and attempt to act like I knew what was going on and what was good for me in front of thousands of sober people who knew what it was all about and knew that they knew what it was all about while I on the other had was clueless...Didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know.
It was suggested to me to sit and listen and learn and not speak because I didn't know anything about alcoholism or how to arrest it in my life. That was true in the fullest and so I did for over 90 days...attend meetings daily and then think about where I should be. I didn't want another religious experience so I was also leary about people trying to postelisize me. I've been in for a long time now and that has never happened. We don't cram God or any other idea of our own about a God down another alcoholics throat...that is a fear you have, not the membership. The program does suggest that we have a power greater than ourselves which will lead us to sanity because by our own self power and management styles we have arrived with a life threatening, incurable, disease asking others for help.
I use to think of the metaphor of myself floundering in heavy seas needing some one to toss me a life ring but wanting to choose the color and shape of it. I needed to grab a life ring only. So I learned how to sit down and listen while understanding that it was these people who knew and who could save my life if I allowed it while I was standing outside of death's door ready to knock again.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
I was the same as you Mooncalf. The last thing I wanted was somebody telling me what I should or shouldn't believe but it's not like that. As suggested it would be best if you just found your way to a meeting and listened. Nobody will try and convert you to anything. All anybody will want to do is to help you stop drinking.
I found the God part of AA the hardest step to get my mind around but the easiest and most fulfilling when I did.
We are not a church or cult or anything like that. All we are is a group of alcoholics that want to help ourselves and other alcoholics by using a program we have seen work when we work it.
Welcome........."and this Power need only be loving and caring and greater than you.When you can say you believe or are even willing to believe in that Power greater than you ,you are well on your way to forming a firm base for your recovery to move forward(paraphrased)..(FROM WE AGNOSTICS PG 44 bIG bOOK)Its a process coming to believe and not an event! Free to form your own concept of your Higher Power(group) (good orderly direction)etc......,We are asked to take direction and follow suggestions,be openminded ,willing and honest..Real bottom line though is you gotta want this,.admission and surrender start the healing process..Hope to hear back from you,.
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Happy Camper, I love how you got right down to Mooncalf's level in your style of response! Excellent. Mike, very tactful and good poise. I wish I could be more like Mike!!! But I'm not...and I'm ok with that. And I don't like to see people criticize my well meaning friends! Friends who have taken the time out of LOVE for others to try and help a still suffering alcoholic. I'm gonna try the tough love approach, because maybe that's what Mooncalf needs.
Soooooo Mooncalf. You may be DYING of this disease, yet you don't want God, you don't want poetry, you don't really want help...if it isn't in the exact way you want to hear things...because it just "doesn't do it for you." Sound ridiculous? Insane? Maybe so! And if so, you're probably an alcoholic.
Please, why don't you tell us exactly what you are seeking so we can quit guessing and getting it wrong? Or could it be that YOU YOURSELF DON'T EVEN KNOW? Can you admit that you don't have all the answers? That what you've been doing isn't working for ya? If so, and if you are willing to be open minded, you might have a chance at sobriety. The program works for millions of people who work it, and is working for me. It is worth giving a fair shot. If you find you don't like it, your misery can be refunded 100%.
You spoke of your "Problem" we here all share in a Disease of Alcoholism. some come in with what is called a high bottom, some with death as an alternative.
One thing you can be certain of you are not alone....we just do this one day at a time.....and NO will ever push any religion on you, dont worry about that as Leeu pointed out.
Hope so see you soon, and again Welcome to MIP, Miracles in Progress. Toni
You would not be the first person who came to AA feeling and thinking that exact same way. I didn't want to be brainwashed or hear about religion either when I went to AA...however, it is not a religious program...It is spiritual. There is absolutely no requirement to believe in "a man up in the sky"...you could have your higher power be a group of people, a tree...whatever works for you. The first step is admitting you are powerless over alcohol and it is messing up your life. Worry about the "god stuff" later. If you let your misgivings about "god" keep you from recovery than you are really cheating yourself out of something wonderful that can save your life.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Welcome mooncalf! I was the exact opposite when I got into the program. I was raised in a pretty strict religious home where I was taught about a punishing vengeful god that was out for blood. I hear often people say "God brought me to AA, and AA brought me to God." What I learned and believe today is that something (maybe it was some god) brought me to AA, and AA helped me get away from the only god I was ever taught about. Today for me the thought of a heaven and hell concept is absurd, but that's just me. I don't know weather or not this "all mighty God" exists, but I do know there's something out there that has more power than me, and he/she/it has my back. I'm alive and sober today because AA in not a religious program. I struggled with the whole "spirituality means religion" thing at first, but learned that they are 2 separate things. These days I study anything I can concerning the spirit and spirituality because for me it's the greater force out there that's still doing for me what I can't do for myself. So, do I believe in God? I have no answer to that. There may or may not be a God. Can I stay sober just believing that I have help from something more powerful than me? Yup, I've been doing it a day at a time for almost 2 years now. We are all on this journey together, and we are here to help the alcoholic who's still suffering and wanting help. Hang around and you may find something you like!
Brian
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Nothing ever truly dies. The universe wastes nothing. Everything is simply, transformed. :confuse:
I am refreshed to see people who have benefited from aa without a god. Thank you to everyone who replied regardless.Again I appologise for my attitude.
The other thing that i have a problem with is powerlessness.To me that implies lack of responsibility for ones actions. I drink, i do what i do when i drink.. i cant blame anyone else for it and i have to take responsiblity for anything i do when drunk.. thankfuly nothing more than social embarresment.
Please dont associate my reluctance with denial.. im just weary of things and i understand that everything has to be questioned
The concept of powerlessness is that you are powerless to control how and how much you drink once you start... That's why your only defense against alcohol is not picking up that first drink.
