I want to encourage you to give your marriage every possible chance to succeed. No one wins in divorce and heartbreak; there are only degrees of ­losing.

As Danny DeVito said in the 1989 comedy The War Of The Roses: "You can leave, or you can go home and try to find some shred of what you once loved about the sweetheart of your youth. It might be hard. But it might be worth it."

Remember how awful it was to be a twenty-something and ask yourself whether it's really something you want to re-live. Think of all the blunders, the frogs kissed and the hearts broken before you found each other.

Lastly, think about the vow you made and what it means to be a person who keeps their vows.

All my best to you and your sweetie.

I just can't agree that it WAS wrong to make those vows then. I think they become right as soon as you make them, whatever the circumstances beforehand. Think about it this way: There was NO WAY you were going to make any better choice. No person, at any stage of their life, can possibly know all the variables and say with certainty that THIS PERSON will definitely make me totally happy for the rest of my life with no effort on my part (mostly because this fictional goddess does not exist). The fact that the decision is inherently impossible for any human to make to their complete satisfaction really leads me to believe that whomever you do choose (absent criminal history or obvious psychosis) must, perforce, be the right choice. From there on, it's up to the both of us to BUILD a happy life together. Happiness is something we can make, like a chair or a table, you just need the right tools.

IF your wife is a person of good character, i.e. willing to do what's right when others might compromise, willing to put others first in at least SOME circumstances, then you're doing better than a good chunk of the population right there.

Plus, admit it, isn't she cute when she makes some particular little face? They all have one little face they make that just slays us.

bikerbill wrote:

---

what if now I believe it was wrong to make those vows then and wrong to be bound by them now? If something don't work and can't be fixed, he we cannot find a way and a desire to live together as partners- which is where we have been for over 5 years- then isn't it kinder to go through the short term pain to each make the long term gain she to start over, me to be me.

We wed in desperation, fear of being lonely, hell we were but kids.
I am well prepared to live alone the rest of my days. I'm not prepared to wait forever for eileen to change. I've had some good times in the past 32 years but the last 5 have been turmoil and unhappiness.
I'm not prepared to wait out the last years of my life in discontent.
For too long now we hve been as two lost souls swimming in separate bowls year after year, running over the same old ground and the same old fears.

---

When I was new I remember seeing this guy and he was a MESS, I asked my friends about him and they said ominously "oh Keith? He's in his fifth year"

I asked what they meant and they replied "When a man gets sober it takes 5 years for all his "deep stuff" to finally come to the surface, family of origin stuff, relationship stuff etc...it takes women 2 years because they are closer to their emotions already then men, men 'stuff' more feelings"

I thought "what a load of crap"

Since then I have seen it probably hundreds of times, and went through it myself (it was HORRIBLE<and I made some terrible errors, I didn't handle it very well>)

By no means am I minimizing or Granolaing what is happening to you, this is when it REALLY got real for me, all that stuff I had been "shrugging off" for my entire life suddenly got in my face pertinant with a vengeance

Anyhow, I remembered what my friends had told me, and it helped, because I knew what was going on, and I knew others had gone through it too, I knew there was "the other side" of this, that would be better, healthier, and quite frankly for the first time in my life I'd be "off my map", I'd be entering "here there be Lyons" on the emotional chart of my life, because I could finally STOP just running over the same old ground in the same old fishbowl, going over the same old fears, I was finally hitting some -real growth- as a human being, and one of the most important lessons I learned was relationships were always growing as well, one of two directions, and nothing I could do stopped that process, as a matter of fact it was unhealthy to me to even try, because it would mean stopping my growth

What I learned was relationships are always growing closer, or growing apart, and when I started finally growing as an emotionally healthy male and out of my adult juvenile "King Baby" not everyone was comfortable with that change, and not everyone could change with me, there were some peoeple I grew closer to, and some people I grew out of or away from, and that's just how that was, years later I thought I had made a mistake by writing off so many people, so I made an effort to re-introduce them into my life, which lead in time to a relapse and a few years in alanon/therapy type stuff, I was a MESS, I got it right the first time by walking away. Insanity and mental unhealth is contagious and I am a weak man and susceptible to that sort of codependent insanity when completely immersed in it, I only seem to flourish when surrounded by healthy people (I'm like that movie Zelig that way, I get sick around sick people and healthy around healthy people, it's very bizarre)

I tried for another 5 years or so with "The Girl of my Dreams" after I got sober on the well meaning but idiotic advice of others and my own stuck thinking, and I should have walked away years before, it wrecked me for the NEXT five years, when in fact I had walked away 3 years before healthy and clean, it was me going back that stunted my emotional growth and caused me incredible harm...

So while this was all going on I went to therapy, and I used to rage and rail, "I don't know what to do, what do I do???"  and I had a GREAT therapist, she said the same things the old timers said, "You DO know what to do, you have ALL of your own answers, my job is to help you access them"

I bolded your answers, you have them, they are YOURS

Another thing I learned was infatuation was me telling me I was done "there", when I was attracted to another woman while with "dream girl" everyone said, "Don't listen to the little head, listen to the big head, the little head will get you into trouble"

So I BURNED, and burned, and being sober, and trying this whole integrity thing out I didn't give in, and the relationship ended anyway. A few years later I realized while dating someone who I actually liked, I NEVER had those urges anymore, I had NO desire to sleep with other people, because I was happy and complete with who I was with, since then I pay attention to my infatuations, not because I am going to act on it, because it is telling me I am not getting what I need from my own relationship for some reason

I came to believe that relationships were placed in my life to learn a lesson, that when the lesson was learned one of two things happen, we continue on to the next lesson if we are growing together, or if we aren't growing together, we start growing apart, nothing I did seemed to change that, the lesson I got from that was any relationship that is based on the other person changing is doomed to painful failure

Anyhow, That was my experience, and it passed, it has since come up in different ways, I am still alive, but I remember the first ...like....sloughing of my "old ideas" it's hard to explain because it manifested like yours is, with a relationship break up family stuff, self pity, getting yelled at by my sponsor, but what I eventually learned was I was growing, and these were growing pains, and not everyone was going to be able to go with me, some because they had already gone through this 20 years before, like they matured normally while I remained stunted behind drinking, but some (like in the relationship) because no matter how vociferously they proclaimed otherwise, they wanted the status quo, they wanted me sick, they wanted me to be the "designated patient", they wanted someone in their life they point at and blame for all their problems, and with platonic friends, some grew very uncomfortable because they wanted me to stay like them, my growth was threatening, when I started growing out of that, I grew closer to some people (I didn't even like previously) and I grew away from others (who I had loved dearly) and that's just how that is

I also learned that if a relationship is meant to be, it will be, period, and I learned that if a relationship was NOT meant to be, nothing in the world was going to keep it together.

Well anyhow, thank GAWD that when I was going through this in AA no one was stupid enough or asinine enough to actually "give me advice" or tell me "what I should do" or spouted platitudes since A: We don't do that in AA, we share our OWN experience, and B: I would have F***ing punched them in the mouth

This will pass Bill, I am incredibly humbled watching you for the last few weeks, the honesty and integrity and clarity you have been showing are what it's all about, and an incredible inspiration to me, you have been helping me (and possibly others) far more then you know

Thank you, you have my utmost respect, sorry this was so long



-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 28th of February 2011 10:32:50 PM

LinBaba wrote:When I was new I remember seeing this guy and he was a MESS, I asked my friends about him and they said ominously "oh Keith? He's in his fifth year"

I asked what they meant and they replied "When a man gets sober it takes 5 years for all his "deep stuff" to finally come to the surface, family of origin stuff, relationship stuff etc...it takes women 2 years because they are closer to their emotions already then men, men 'stuff' more feelings"

I thought "what a load of crap"

Since then I have seen it probably hundreds of times, and went through it myself (it was HORRIBLE<and I made some terrible errors, I didn't handle it very well>)

By no means am I minimizing or Granolaing what is happening to you, this is when it REALLY got real for me, all that stuff I had been "shrugging off" for my entire life suddenly got in my face pertinant with a vengeance

Anyhow, I remembered what my friends had told me, and it helped, because I knew what was going on, and I knew others had gone through it too, I knew there was "the other side" of this, that would be better, healthier, and quite frankly for the first time in my life I'd be "off my map", I'd be entering "here there be Lyons" on the emotional chart of my life, because I could finally STOP just running over the same old ground in the same old fishbowl, going over the same old fears, I was finally hitting some -real growth- as a human being, and one of the most important lessons I learned was relationships were always growing as well, one of two directions, and nothing I could do stopped that process, as a matter of fact it was unhealthy to me to even try, because it would mean stopping my growth

What I learned was relationships are always growing closer, or growing apart, and when I started finally growing as an emotionally healthy male and out of my adult juvenile "King Baby" not everyone was comfortable with that change, and not everyone could change with me, there were some peoeple I grew closer to, and some people I grew out of or away from, and that's just how that was, years later I thought I had made a mistake by writing off so many people, so I made an effort to re-introduce them into my life, which lead in time to a relapse and a few years in alanon/therapy type stuff, I was a MESS, I got it right the first time by walking away. Insanity and mental unhealth is contagious and I am a weak man and susceptible to that sort of codependent insanity when completely immersed in it, I only seem to flourish when surrounded by healthy people (I'm like that movie Zelig that way, I get sick around sick people and healthy around healthy people, it's very bizarre)

I tried for another 5 years or so with "The Girl of my Dreams" after I got sober on the well meaning but idiotic advice of others and my own stuck thinking, and I should have walked away years before, it wrecked me for the NEXT five years, when in fact I had walked away 3 years before healthy and clean, it was me going back that stunted my emotional growth and caused me incredible harm...

So while this was all going on I went to therapy, and I used to rage and rail, "I don't know what to do, what do I do???"  and I had a GREAT therapist, she said the same things the old timers said, "You DO know what to do, you have ALL of your own answers, my job is to help you access them"

I bolded your answers, you have them, they are YOURS

Another thing I learned was infatuation was me telling me I was done "there", when I was attracted to another woman while with "dream girl" everyone said, "Don't listen to the little head, listen to the big head, the little head will get you into trouble"

So I BURNED, and burned, and being sober, and trying this whole integrity thing out I didn't give in, and the relationship ended anyway. A few years later I realized while dating someone who I actually liked, I NEVER had those urges anymore, I had NO desire to sleep with other people, because I was happy and complete with who I was with, since then I pay attention to my infatuations, not because I am going to act on it, because it is telling me I am not getting what I need from my own relationship for some reason

I came to believe that relationships were placed in my life to learn a lesson, that when the lesson was learned one of two things happen, we continue on to the next lesson if we are growing together, or if we aren't growing together, we start growing apart, nothing I did seemed to change that, the lesson I got from that was any relationship that is based on the other person changing is doomed to painful failure

Anyhow, That was my experience, and it passed, it has since come up in different ways, I am still alive, but I remember the first ...like....sloughing of my "old ideas" it's hard to explain because it manifested like yours is, with a relationship break up family stuff, self pity, getting yelled at by my sponsor, but what I eventually learned was I was growing, and these were growing pains, and not everyone was going to be able to go with me, some because they had already gone through this 20 years before, like they matured normally while I remained stunted behind drinking, but some (like in the relationship) because no matter how vociferously they proclaimed otherwise, they wanted the status quo, they wanted me sick, they wanted me to be the "designated patient", they wanted someone in their life they point at and blame for all their problems, and with platonic friends, some grew very uncomfortable because they wanted me to stay like them, my growth was threatening, when I started growing out of that, I grew closer to some people (I didn't even like previously) and I grew away from others (who I had loved dearly) and that's just how that is

I also learned that if a relationship is meant to be, it will be, period, and I learned that if a relationship was NOT meant to be, nothing in the world was going to keep it together.

Well anyhow, thank GAWD that when I was going through this in AA no one was stupid enough or asinine enough to actually "give me advice" or tell me "what I should do" or spouted platitudes since A: We don't do that in AA, we share our OWN experience, and B: I would have F***ing punched them in the mouth

This will pass Bill, I am incredibly humbled watching you for the last few weeks, the honesty and integrity and clarity you have been showing are what it's all about, and an incredible inspiration to me, you have been helping me (and possibly others) far more then you know

Thank you, you have my utmost respect, sorry this was so long

This was by far one of the most profound, deeply insightful shares in my humble opinion, that I have read or heard in any form ever. I read this absolutely Godsmacked and awe inspired. AA is powerful stuff and this reiterates that to me emphatically.

( imagine one man standing and clapping very loudly)

Kind regards
Jamie
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 28th of February 2011 10:32:50 PM

---

 

-- Edited by Jamie D on Tuesday 1st of March 2011 01:17:20 AM