Want to be a little more specific?

Over the years I have heard many different ways to work the fourth step, I myself have done it a variety of ways, and I got something out of it each time, i know people with 20+ years who have done some crazy granola eating burn your fourth step versions, I know people who didnt work the fourth step out of the BB but out of the 12 and 12, it seemed to work, the steps are a raft to carry us to another place

so when you do another fourth step, do it like the book says, another time, write the story of your life, for me debris gets cleared, and more is revealed

none of us has been able to maintain anything like "perfect" adherence to these steps, the point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines

The only step we do perfectly is the first step, truthfully rigid thinking gets me in more trouble then doing a sloppy job on the steps

"Toeing the party line" is not a prerequisite either for membership, acceptance, or even of always having a strong program, honesty, willingness and open mindedness are, read the 6th step in the 12 and 12 and it addresses this

Like Mr Sponsorpants says today:

I have been powerfully reminded of late that it is not achievement which brings happiness; it is surrender.

PPS oh, Defiance is the party line, even Bill knew that

"Defiance is the outstanding characteristic of every alcoholic"

-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 24th of February 2011 09:35:01 AM

-- Edited by LinBaba on Thursday 24th of February 2011 09:41:03 AM

You are not going to like all personalities just because they are in AA. Some folks are always going to rub you the wrong way even after they have worked on themselves. A program of recovery unites us, but doesn't always make us love each other. It's important to remember that the 12 steps are really for self-improvement. While, I am inclined to look at some folks and be like "WTF kind of program do they have to act like that?" What really matters is how they feel about themself and how I feel about myself.

Also, remember that there are many phases of recovery. You might see a person that seems like they are still a real jerk despite working the program a while...That person might have been a super mondo jerk before working the steps :)

About step 4:  I did it chronologically from birth to current with major events listed, people involved, resentments formed, a list of fears...It was sort of like an autobiography.  It was about 20 pages long...It wasn't the format in the big book.  In the end the step states to do a searching moral inventory...If you did that, it is my belief you did the step.  Whatever anyone else thinks is irrelevant. 

Good questions.

-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 24th of February 2011 10:30:38 AM

When you read the big book, it's pretty clear that it bills itself as a book of suggestions. They're all DARN GOOD suggestions, but I think that means the actual execution of them is a bit flexible. You notice when it describes the fourth step it says "We were usually as specific as this:" before giving examples. The implication being that the authors were SOMETIMES NOT as specific as that.

Also, not to get too sectarian on anybody, but as a person with your belief background, I think you have an extra tool in your kit. To me, that's like having a really supportive family member or spouse. I think the statistics might bear out that regular churchgoers have less chance of relapse. I think it helps me a lot.

Hi, I'm Mark and I'm an AA with 1 year and a little over one month sober (not that this should mean much, I'm not expert but this program has worked for me for over a year now and I was pretty hopeless before that :)).  Sorry I did not read all the replies, I'm sure there is good information already posted, but I'll post a bit about what I think.

Jamie D wrote:

---

I sometimes wonder about freedom in AA. It's all about "freedom from" some say, but how accepting are we really ....................... really as a society. Say for arguments sake an alcoholic had radical beliefs contradictory to "key" parts of the recovery process, by radical I mean different to what you hear shared by the majority of members in the rooms of Alcoholics anonymous. Should that member leave AA ? Should they only look to share that which corresponds with the general truth floating around the rooms ?

How much of a truth personal and relevant to a given member should be changed, so as to conform ?

Am I alone, or has anyone else out there ever stopped and really examined what they believe as opposed to what they "say" they believe to avoid being ostracised ??????

Kind regards

Jamie

-- Edited by Jamie D on Thursday 24th of February 2011 03:15:01 AM

---

"Should that member leave AA ?"

A good question.  Why should someone be a member of AA if they aren't working the program in the big book.  Well, maybe they are working the program from the big book in a way that makes sense to them.  If they are an alchoholic and they can stay sober by working "their" program, that is good for them although I myself will stick strictly to how I interpret the big book, which is mostly how old timers with ten or twenty plus years have taught me to interpret it.

I think tradition number 3 is very important to remember here, "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."  If that person desire to stop drinking, we have no right to say they cannot come (unless they are just outright distruptive in the meeting and need to be removed by police or something lol).  Furthermore, if that person thinks that coming to meetings is helping them, they should come.

Where I draw the line is when they start advising newcomers to do things that are clearly against the program.  Will I tell them they need to leave?  No.  However, I will have no problem speaking a in a meeting and saying that I disagree with what they have said, in private telling them I disagree with what they said, or in private telling the person(s) whom I feel they may have misinformed what I think.

I do not think that a person should share things in the meeting that they think about recovery if they clearly contradict the big book, but this will bring many controversies about what exactly the big book means or implies.  For example, in one of the meetings that I have gone to, there is a man with a few years of sobriety who always says somethign along the lines of, "What has carried me through recover is my higher power.  Your higher power can be whatever you choose to call it, whether it is Buddah, or Allah, or anything."

Some old timers with 20+ years of sobriety got very angry with him about this.  Some of them even called him, "not a real alchoholic," supposidely because they thought it impossible for him to stay sober so long when "his" program didn't agree with what they thought the program discribed in the big book said.  For the record, the man was a Christian as well. 

The problem these old timers had with this man was that the big book said specifically "God" or "God as we understood him."  It didn't mention any of this stuff about, "it could be Allah, Buddah, or whatever." 

Personally I do not find this man's conception of what is neccessary of a higher power to conflict with the program.  I don't see why you couldn't call your higher power Buddah or Allah and remain sober or why that would be against AA teachings.  I also do not think that anyone has the right to say that this man is not a real alchoholic.  One way or the other, I will admit I do not care that much about this matter so long as I do not let it affect my sobriety by perverting the way I think of my higher power or causing me to build a resentment to this person or anyone else. 

A more extreme example is a person with over twenty years of sobriety who faithfully attends meetings.  This man is a self proclaimed atheist and in the past has not been afraid to admit it, yet he claims to love the program and its people.  I have no clue what goes on in this man's head or how he can even be a part of AA if he is an atheist.  It doesn't make sense to me unless maybe his higher power is just not one that he calls God (which in and of itself is a contradiction to the program as step and step 11 clearly say "God."  Even if it is God as we understand him, we cannot understand God to not be God, but really that's a whole other can of worms!).  However, the facts are straight.  He believes he is an alchoholic and wants to stop drinking, therefor he should be allowed to stay.  From his stories, I definitely believe that he is an alchoholic.  Furthermore, he has twenty + years of sobriety, whatever is going on in his life seems to be working for him.  That said, I will neither adopt or preach the belief that you do need a higher power or God in this program.

I don't think anyone needs to conform to AA such that they lie about their true beliefs to be like everyone else, however I think some things ought not be preached in the rooms of AA if they have no bearing on the program.

"Am I alone, or has anyone else out there ever stopped and really examined what they believe as opposed to what they "say" they believe to avoid being ostracised ??????"

Defintely not alone.  I as well as many alchoholics ponder our beliefs.  It seems like as humans we are naturally inclined to do this.  Alchoholics in particular seem to question beliefs more than the average person.  How many times in a meeting have you heard of someone that has questioned or outright disagreed with another's spirituality?  The most common example is someone saying, "I grew up Catholic," or, "I grew up going to church but I soon began to disagree with what I was being told.  We just seem to naturaly question authority us alchoholics, and along with that comes questioning what the norm tells us, even when the norm is what the majority of recovering alchoholics believe.






Jamie D wrote:

---

Hey Dean, I wasn't trying to be non-specific. Really just trying to show respect for others and get some feedback without causing a storm . I was just curious what peoples opinions were regarding the implementation of the program in their lives, heres what I mean. The nuts and bolts of the process of "getting well" and the actual working of the steps. I just saw a guy in our group the other week drink and cut himself to shreds ( he cuts himself when he drinks ) and he had only just "completed" the steps thoroughly with a sponsor ( my sponsor actually) . I believe I have good recovery, and have never been plagued by the thought of a drink or depression , by the Grace of God, and yet I have never had the formal nature to my program some have had . Heres what I mean regarding formal.............. I've met people in AA who had "the sponsor" everyone knows, can explain the concept of and how to complete the steps "in depth", and yet they have a yucky vibe....you know like they just aren't a nice person and I've always thought this was about cultivating a loving heart.

Side note I've always had a deep love for the teachings of Jesus, now I'm not a church goer but I do believe in jesus' teachings for living. Jesus never taught any hard or fast "rules" for life , having a core of his work centering around the belief that , have a loving heart and a genuine desire for growth , like our code in AA love and tolerance towrds others and there would be no need for specific rituals or structured rules for the true seekers heart would intuitively know what to do.

Coming Back to what I said about a "formal nature to the program" DIRECTLY FROM THE BOOK- I've heard members who have shared about the specifics of their fourth step, how they structured it not the content as such, screeds and screeds of writing lists of resentments and then where I was hurt and so on and so fourth , really comprehensive step 4. And yet they don't seem to have grown much post steps , wether the didn't get into it with rigourous honesty or they had half measures somewhere I don't know, they haven't cultivated from that approach what I or others have seen as something to work towards.

When I on the other hand did my forth step I prayed to God first to show me what He thought I should see, not what I thought I needed to see, and I had a list of defects shown to me in my mind that I wrote down, I didn't write resentments down I just wrote down my wrongs. Which Ironically my sponsor said to me is what I was suppose to get out of my step 4, that instead of it being Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick , it was me in my life with my thinking. And I got huge growth from that and insight into what I really was down on paper.

But heres the thing..................... That's not how it says to do it in the book. And hence I have never shared that at a meeting because that's not how the AA'ers that know program inside out talk about the program. But it's whats worked for me, and whilst I have had peace and stayed sober others who have done it by the book to the letter, have drunk , so how can I continue to sit in meetings and share a lie concerning what has actually worked for me.

Hope thats specific enough.

Just looking for feedback really on " Am I the only one who has shared what has worked for me, when that is not what has worked for me but out of respect to the generally accepted AA thing to do have towed the party line??

Kind regards

Jamie

-- Edited by Jamie D on Thursday 24th of February 2011 05:04:04 AM

---

Remember, the book is meant to be suggestive only as it says at the end of the chapter, "A Vision for You."  Even in "How it Works." it says, "We were usually as definite as this example:" before it shows us the well known example chart on how to do your fourth step.  I have heard people say you need to do it exactly like that chart (along with the other things outlined in the book like character defects, sex inventory, fears, etc).  I have heard people say write it down, though it didn't have to be exactly like the book.  I have heard people say that it's up to you and it's between you and God.  My sponser who has 24 years of sobriety this month never wrote down a forth step.  He said he did his forth and fifth step by sitting down and talking with a man at an AA club for war vets (he was a Vietnam vet).  What exactly they talked about he has never told me nor have I inquired much about.

 

Personally, I have done my forth step several ways.  I have written it down and filled many pages, I have done a mental inventory, and I have thouroughly discussed it with someone else.  I think writing it down and then sharing it in your fifth step is the best way to do it.

 

However, say you already have some sobriety, but you feel you have been slacking on your 10th step and their have been things on your conciousness bothering you.  This is exactly what happened to me about two months ago.  I felt like I was doing well accept some of my old character defects were coming up, like lying, deceiving, and using others.  So I thought long and hard about these things and called up my sponser and told him I needed to do a fifth step with him even though I had already done my fifth step earlier in recovery.  I talked with him about it and he offered me his thoughts on it.  We came to the conclusion that I needed to let it go and offer it up to God, then make an effort to change my ways (obviously asking for God's strength to do his will).  We also came to the conclusion that I needed to make ammends to my fiancee and my family.  I never wrote down all the things that I discussed with my sponser that day, but I still feel I had done a real forth step prior to talking to him and a real fifth step when I talked with him.

 

Phew, now I think I need to pray for the strength and motivation to write my English essay for my college class!

 

I hope this post was a help to you or anyone who read it.