One of the meetings that I drop in on if I am at a loose end on a Sunday night is a steps meeting. They recently had some intergroup issues and now the secretary and the whole format of the meeting has changed. When I spoke to my friend who is now secretary he said the new format is that after the initial opening readings a guest speaker who is different every week and who has been through the steps with a sponsor will make themselves available to share when asked questions by newcomers on that particular step being discussed that week. I said to my friend, how weird it was that I was just reading on this forum as it would happen that an older sober member had posted, about people sharing in a meeting when and if they had done the steps on their experience strength and hope. He said , "yeah well until they've done the steps all they can talk at me is the disease".
This is a new concept to me and I think it's a great idea, because when I got sober I woud love to have asked the questions I heard getting asked last night instead of having to wait until the After "meeting meeting" in the carpark. The girl sitting next to me who is new asked the chair ( last nights step was step 9) " Is it amends to everyone you've harmed in your life whilst drinking ? or in your whole life before AA ? I thought WOW what a great question and a logical one too, how wonderful to have been able to share in this format of meeting , and great for newcomers. I find most of the time ( generally )people who haven't done the steps feel uncomfortable sharing or only share for a short time anyway, so I don't think the hole sharing only if you have completed the steps is really that far a stretch.
When I saw the comment In this forum it took me back but I agreed with it. Now I am wondering maybe thats where the strength can come back into it instead of the group therapy " Heres whats going down for me " format that so many meetings have fallen into that seems to have sucked out the strength.
I see your point, Jamie. Some meetings can turn into "group". I now have added a more structured step/traditions meeting to my schedule in addition to topic/discussion meetings.
Are there other meetings geographically convenient and abundant where newcomers can "disclose, in a general way, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now."?
I prefer to have people feel free to share in a way that helps them stay sober that day, even if it's "here's what's going down for me right now." Although I find it valuable to hear others' shares on their ES&H with a particular step, when I look at meetings as a place for me to give something (even if it's just a listening ear), rather than a place for me to get something, I find I always walk away feeling closer to the program and my sobriety.
Sounds like a great meeting and a great idea Jamie.
I enjoy meetings that are focused on a solution, the steps, the Power of God and mtgs where , when you leave there you feel like you've learned something important.
I think it's important to have meetings with different formats
Newcomers meetings so newcomers can ask questions
Step studies so people can share their actual experience with each step (and newcomers can ask questions)
Big Book studies so people can share their experience with the paragraph that was just read (and newcomers can ask questions)
Speaker discussions so the speaker can share his experience, others can share their experience with staying sober, and newcomers can ask questions
Speaker meetings so Speakers who HAVE worked the steps can share "what it was like" (when engaged in active alcoholism) "What happened" (what my bottom looked like, the despair etc) and "What it's like now" (Now that I have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body by working the steps and what life in sobriety looks like, what it has to offer, how I navigate life sober one day at a time from work environment to relationships with others, in other words, how I beat 'the devilments')
I was told to NEVER EVER EVER share in a situation where I began with "I don't have any experience with this step/situation/work issue/relationship issue etc
because I don't have any experience with it, and we share our experience
By definition a newcomer CAN'T share "what it was like, what happened and what it's like now" because by definition they haven't got past "what happened' yet
What it was like what happened what it was like what happened what it was like what happened How fucked up my life is today because I haven't worked the steps and I am suffering from untreated alcoholism
or in other words
We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people
and we can't seem to stay sober, we have NO happy joyous and free, we have NO sobriety, I can't teach anyone in this room how to get drunk, and I can't teach anyone in this room how to stay sober
How is that solution?
What does that have to do with AA?
The "we" in Alcoholics Anonymous that share "our experience, strength and Hope", that share "what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now" are the same we who "Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery" and "We are -100- men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body"
The purpose of meetings and the program is "To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered"
If someone hasn't recovered and hasn't worked the steps other then asking for help, asking questions, asking for a sponsor etc truly, what do they have to offer in a meeting of alcoholics anonymous? What exactly are they sharing?
An opinion about an experience they have never had viewed through the delusional lense of active alcoholism, they are sharing nothing but the delusional ramblings of active alcoholism. That is NOT a meeting carrying "it's message to the "still suffering alcoholic, that's the still suffering alcoholic holding a room hostage with selfishness, self centeredness, which last I checked was the root of all our problems
Of course folks who haven't worked the steps will defend their position to the death to be able to "share" in a meeting of AA, but then anyone who does anything stupid will defend their position about anything, the funny thing is talking to these same people a few years later after they have worked the steps
We ALL cringe when we remember that stuff, right before we bust up into hysterical laughter, I think newcomers should be allowed to make mistakes, I don't have a lot of patience for those who sponsor others without a pretty good grounding in the steps and the traditions and AA itself though, I mean what are you passing on? Your profound ignorance of AA and vast misunderstanding of what the steps, traditions and history of AA is?
I see people sponsoring who have never worked the steps, who don't even know what alcoholism is for crying out loud much less know how to get a newcomer to "identify" as an alcoholic, which contrary to popular belief by AA groupies and non alcoholics IS a requirement for membership 3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. I tell my sponsees they can share if they want....if they want to be an example of how NOT to work the program, but I ask one question, I say "the next time you have a "burning desire" to share, some "amazing revelation" I ask you wait for 2-3 meetings before you share it, and I GUARANTEE some other newcomer will share the exact same thing, so you can watch what it looks like from the outside, you can see how it sounds, no less then 20 times the sponsee has come back to me within a week and thanked me profusely, because someone did exactly that, and it didn't seem so clever or earth shaking or astounding any more
Sharing "experience" is AA
Sharing "problems" (without solution, without a story of how the steps, the fellowship or the program helped cope with that situation in a positive or healthy way) is NOT AA, it's group therapy
I was told there was 2 types of alcoholics in the rooms of AA, those who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body by working the steps, and the "still suffering alcoholics" whether they were drinking or not no matter how much "time" they had, the ISM is lifted by the steps (in most cases LOL)
Time is not a factor, someone who hasn't had a drink in 20 years could be "still suffering" and someone who had 6 months but had completed the steps could be "recovered", my experience is these statuses are subject to change, hence the daily reprieve we get contingent upon maintaining our fit spiritual condition, I have been amazingly together at times, and dryer then a popcorn fart others, that's why there is a group, so we all aren't crazy on the same day
AA is not Group Therapy, or "self help", both of these things are good, I am "pro" self help AND group therapy, it's just that isn't what "AA" is
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 21st of February 2011 02:08:03 PM
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 21st of February 2011 02:09:49 PM
__________________
it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Normally when I share, I talk about some challenge I faced that week but I always make sure to put it in the context of how I'm trying to handle it through the 12 steps. If I say something off base, hopefully somebody will share their view.
__________________
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.
I try and be patient with newcomers sharing how fucked up their life is when they haven't worked the steps. 1. Because that was me at one point and I needed to share it so that others could show me the answer and 2. It reminds me that I have solutions to situations that used to baffle me.
I do believe that if you stick around AA long enough...some of the steps will rub off on you...even if you just come and listen and blab (ala group therapy style). The steps will eventually seep in your head and start to work you....HOWEVER, nothing will ever replace formally working them with a sponsor. Period.
P.S. I went to 2 step meetings this week. It was cool to actually be able to share now on steps that I actually did work on. Early on I did make the mistake of sharing on steps I didn't even do yet. I wanted to understand so bad and to be at a different place before putting in the work and living sober for a while.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Monday 21st of February 2011 07:09:28 PM
__________________
Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Sounds like a interesting format. At my homegroup we split into 2 groups of about 15 to 20. Both groups have a discussion leader, one group is a open discussion and the other is a beginners meeting focusing mainly on the 1st 3 steps.
Hopefully you don't have cross-talk issues in your area and people know to share their own ESH, and don't directly give advise or instruction (be careful).
I don't want to make a problem where there isn't one, but sometimes newcomers in our area will throw out whatever question is on their mind regardless of it's relevance to the steps, then things can get crazy and off focus (IDK maybe some aren't 100% detoxed in our area ). I would just suggest to be ready with a mechanism to get things back on track just in case.
I guess it depends on the meeting, but I don't have a problem listening to newcomers share at a meeting, as long as they are brief and don't hijack the meeting, it can be a important step in them feeling a part of the group.
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Rob84 wrote:I guess it depends on the meeting, but I don't have a problem listening to newcomers share at a meeting, as long as they are brief and don't hijack the meeting, it can be a important step in them feeling a part of the group. See I agree with this as well, it's a fine line though, and personally I think it's an issue for a sponsor to help the sponsee with, some of the most amazing shares in my life have been heartfelt shares from newcomers
I think it's something we can all do together, is teach newcomers what the program is for, be patient with them and each other, I guess the problem I have is people who think meetings are their personal "dumping ground" who use them to "get stuff off their chest" and who teach newcomers that it's appropriate to do so, who tell the newcomer to "share about their problems" at group level, that's what sponsors and a support group is for, not meetings
It's not the newcomers I have the problem with, it's the people who teach the newcomer to pass along the disease, the problem, at group level, and not "the solution", who teach the newcomer to use the group as their own personal "Group Thearpy", the newcomer doesn't know any better, they are new for grying out loud, but the people who have been around for awhile and -should- know better but use the meeting to "vent" and "dump" and "talk about their day" and "talk about their problems" and teach others to pass along the disease by holding the entire meeting hostage in such a vastly selfish and self centered way are the "still suffering alcoholics" I personally find tedious
It IS a fine line, but once again, I think it should be between the sponsor and the sponsee, sometimes it IS important to share to feel "part of", but a sponsor who has a good grounding in the steps, the traditions, the history, and what AA is, can be a good guide to help the newcomer navigate their way through this
__________________
it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
I totally relate to what is being said, I've rolled my eyes a few times, and have actually begun to lose my emotional sobriety... in my chair... at an AA meeting, lol. And if it's not a resentment with an un-knowing newcomer, it's with the chairperson for not getting this thing under control.
But... I've been taught.... over and over and over.... that my experiences hold a mirror for me. Have I ever done this? Am I guilty?
Yep, I did it once upon a time..... because I didn't know. Today, when it happens, I accept that it's my turn now, to listen. And if I can't listen because I really feel it's the disease talking at me, or whatever... I can close my eyes and keep myself under control. I've sat through many one-hour intensive meditations, and I can do it at an AA meeting, it works well.
Bottom line to me is, I have no control. I can't control an AA meeting. I can't control other people.... People are NEVER going to act the way I want them to, I am powerless. Better for me to figure out how I'm going to accept life on life's terms.
-- Edited by gladlee on Tuesday 22nd of February 2011 06:28:56 PM
Rob84 wrote:I guess it depends on the meeting, but I don't have a problem listening to newcomers share at a meeting, as long as they are brief and don't hijack the meeting, it can be a important step in them feeling a part of the group. See I agree with this as well, it's a fine line though, and personally I think it's an issue for a sponsor to help the sponsee with, some of the most amazing shares in my life have been heartfelt shares from newcomers
I think it's something we can all do together, is teach newcomers what the program is for, be patient with them and each other, I guess the problem I have is people who think meetings are their personal "dumping ground" who use them to "get stuff off their chest" and who teach newcomers that it's appropriate to do so, who tell the newcomer to "share about their problems" at group level, that's what sponsors and a support group is for, not meetings
It's not the newcomers I have the problem with, it's the people who teach the newcomer to pass along the disease, the problem, at group level, and not "the solution", who teach the newcomer to use the group as their own personal "Group Thearpy", the newcomer doesn't know any better, they are new for grying out loud, but the people who have been around for awhile and -should- know better but use the meeting to "vent" and "dump" and "talk about their day" and "talk about their problems" and teach others to pass along the disease by holding the entire meeting hostage in such a vastly selfish and self centered way are the "still suffering alcoholics" I personally find tedious
It IS a fine line, but once again, I think it should be between the sponsor and the sponsee, sometimes it IS important to share to feel "part of", but a sponsor who has a good grounding in the steps, the traditions, the history, and what AA is, can be a good guide to help the newcomer navigate their way through this
I agree 100%. If I notice a problem and I know the person's sponsor, I will mention the issue to them, or make some suggestions nicely to the person. They usually don't know they are inappropriate.
__________________
Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
I think it's important to have meetings with different formats
Newcomers meetings so newcomers can ask questions
Step studies so people can share their actual experience with each step (and newcomers can ask questions)
Big Book studies so people can share their experience with the paragraph that was just read (and newcomers can ask questions)
Speaker discussions so the speaker can share his experience, others can share their experience with staying sober, and newcomers can ask questions
Speaker meetings so Speakers who HAVE worked the steps can share "what it was like" (when engaged in active alcoholism) "What happened" (what my bottom looked like, the despair etc) and "What it's like now" (Now that I have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body by working the steps and what life in sobriety looks like, what it has to offer, how I navigate life sober one day at a time from work environment to relationships with others, in other words, how I beat 'the devilments')
I was told to NEVER EVER EVER share in a situation where I began with "I don't have any experience with this step/situation/work issue/relationship issue etc
because I don't have any experience with it, and we share our experience
By definition a newcomer CAN'T share "what it was like, what happened and what it's like now" because by definition they haven't got past "what happened' yet
What it was like what happened what it was like what happened what it was like what happened How fucked up my life is today because I haven't worked the steps and I am suffering from untreated alcoholism
or in other words
We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people
and we can't seem to stay sober, we have NO happy joyous and free, we have NO sobriety, I can't teach anyone in this room how to get drunk, and I can't teach anyone in this room how to stay sober
How is that solution?
What does that have to do with AA?
The "we" in Alcoholics Anonymous that share "our experience, strength and Hope", that share "what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now" are the same we who "Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery" and "We are -100- men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body"
The purpose of meetings and the program is "To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered"
If someone hasn't recovered and hasn't worked the steps other then asking for help, asking questions, asking for a sponsor etc truly, what do they have to offer in a meeting of alcoholics anonymous? What exactly are they sharing?
An opinion about an experience they have never had viewed through the delusional lense of active alcoholism, they are sharing nothing but the delusional ramblings of active alcoholism. That is NOT a meeting carrying "it's message to the "still suffering alcoholic, that's the still suffering alcoholic holding a room hostage with selfishness, self centeredness, which last I checked was the root of all our problems
Of course folks who haven't worked the steps will defend their position to the death to be able to "share" in a meeting of AA, but then anyone who does anything stupid will defend their position about anything, the funny thing is talking to these same people a few years later after they have worked the steps
We ALL cringe when we remember that stuff, right before we bust up into hysterical laughter, I think newcomers should be allowed to make mistakes, I don't have a lot of patience for those who sponsor others without a pretty good grounding in the steps and the traditions and AA itself though, I mean what are you passing on? Your profound ignorance of AA and vast misunderstanding of what the steps, traditions and history of AA is?
I see people sponsoring who have never worked the steps, who don't even know what alcoholism is for crying out loud much less know how to get a newcomer to "identify" as an alcoholic, which contrary to popular belief by AA groupies and non alcoholics IS a requirement for membership 3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
I tell my sponsees they can share if they want....if they want to be an example of how NOT to work the program, but I ask one question, I say "the next time you have a "burning desire" to share, some "amazing revelation" I ask you wait for 2-3 meetings before you share it, and I GUARANTEE some other newcomer will share the exact same thing, so you can watch what it looks like from the outside, you can see how it sounds, no less then 20 times the sponsee has come back to me within a week and thanked me profusely, because someone did exactly that, and it didn't seem so clever or earth shaking or astounding any more
Sharing "experience" is AA
Sharing "problems" (without solution, without a story of how the steps, the fellowship or the program helped cope with that situation in a positive or healthy way) is NOT AA, it's group therapy
I was told there was 2 types of alcoholics in the rooms of AA, those who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body by working the steps, and the "still suffering alcoholics" whether they were drinking or not no matter how much "time" they had, the ISM is lifted by the steps (in most cases LOL)
Time is not a factor, someone who hasn't had a drink in 20 years could be "still suffering" and someone who had 6 months but had completed the steps could be "recovered", my experience is these statuses are subject to change, hence the daily reprieve we get contingent upon maintaining our fit spiritual condition, I have been amazingly together at times, and dryer then a popcorn fart others, that's why there is a group, so we all aren't crazy on the same day
AA is not Group Therapy, or "self help", both of these things are good, I am "pro" self help AND group therapy, it's just that isn't what "AA" is
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 21st of February 2011 02:08:03 PM
-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 21st of February 2011 02:09:49 PM
What an amazing share....thank you :)
-- Edited by Patsy88 on Thursday 24th of February 2011 11:10:06 PM
Perhaps I'm taking the wrong message from this thread, but since I've read it I have not shared anything in a meeting. I take from all of your responses that newcomers aren't exactly welcome in AA meetings. Or, it's OK if they're there if they only keep their mouths shut.
I'm a newcomer at 54 days. I have a sponsor and am just starting to work the steps. She did not want me to start working the steps until I finished with my group therapy program, which I finished last week. I've been reading the Big Book on my own and I have to say that it's an amazing read.
I attend meetings daily and learn from every meeting. I am sincere in my sobriety and feel I am working as hard as I can to learn the AA way. There are some meetings where I do get the burning desire to share. But now I've been riddled with this "newcomer" status that I just keep my mouth shut and pass.
So when do you feel a newcomer has a right to speak at a meeting?
Hi Fallon, I don't think anyone here feels that you shouldn't share as a newcomer. In fact, newcomer shares can be very powerful. But at a step meeting, unless you've worked the step, you have no experience to share, you know. Read Linbaba's post again, he explains the purpose of the different meeting types. I think what people are referring to here is that meetings can become group therapy and that's really not their purpose. However, I attend a beginners meeting on Monday's here, and its purpose is for sharing what's bothering you. We know that going in so it works for us. Plus when I share at that meeting , I always try to bring it back to how the steps or a step worked for me on a particular issue that someone may have raised, without speaking directly to that person of course. But if you are struggling and feel in danger of picking up, I think you should share that at any meeting. Just want to add I still think of myself as a newcomer too, and by no means am I an expert on sharing prototcol. Just offering you my thoughts based on my exprience. I once shared at a step meeting on a step I hadn't worked, and it was made clear to me from an oldtimer that it was inappropriate. I was embarrased, but you know what, he was right.
-- Edited by ferrisdp on Saturday 26th of February 2011 09:28:00 AM
Thanks for the explanation. I think I am misunderstanding. At this point, I only attend open or closed discussion meetings and speaker meetings. I have never attended a steps meeting because quite frankly I don't belong at a steps meeting. I can't talk about what I don't know.
Thanks for the explanation. I think I am misunderstanding. At this point, I only attend open or closed discussion meetings and speaker meetings. I have never attended a steps meeting because quite frankly I don't belong at a steps meeting. I can't talk about what I don't know.
Heya Fallon, Step Study meetings and Book study meetings were VERY helpful to me, for many years actually, especially BEFORE I had done the steps, I could ask questions there and everyone was very helpful
The thing about when I was new, I ALWAYS had a "burning desire" to share, and so I'd sit in the meeting rehearsing what I was going to "share" to myself and frankly not hear anything being said because I was so busy thinking about myself, it took me a long time to get over that, as alcoholics we are all great talkers, we are great explainers, we are great storytellers, and if there's one thing we know how to do is talk about ourselves, it was suggested to me (i didn't follow this suggestion but I tried), that i didn't share for a year, because the truth was I didn't know how to listen, not really, I'd be thinking about what I was going to say while people were talking to me in conversations even, that if I wanted to recover (and be in a relationship) it would behoove me to learn how to listen, as in a general trait of alcoholics is we aren't great listeners, and I could use some work there, so for a long time I used meetings to learn how to listen
I think it's important to have meetings with different formats
Newcomers meetings so newcomers can ask questions
Newcomer meetings were great for me, because most have some sort of format so newcomers can share what's going on, ask questions, and hear what other newcomers are experiencing, and frequently be able to answer other newcomers questions in ways an old timer can't any more, the guy with the 30 days can frequently reach the guy with 3 days far more effectively then the guy with 30 years
Step studies so people can share their actual experience with each step (and newcomers can ask questions)
I think step studies are FANTASTIC, whether someone has worked the step or not, we get to learn how people did the steps, we learn the benefits of the steps, we learn different ways to look at things, step study meetings are -pure- solution
Big Book studies so people can share their experience with the paragraph that was just read (and newcomers can ask questions)
The Big Book is a textbook of which every single part before chapter 5 is directly related to steps one and two, chapters 5 and 6 are steps 3-9, and chapter 7 is step 12, to the wives, a vision for you, to employers are ALL chock full of valuable information as well, so BB meetings are -pure- solution as well
Personally I prefer meetings where I listen to how people got well, in discussion meetings I get to hear about someone's problems that day, or problems at work, or problems with their relationship, or how they got a flat tire and God is working in their life because someone stopped and helped them change it, in step study and book study I get to hear how people recovered and how they changed their lives by working the steps, how they recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition of mind and body, and I get to hear exactly how they did it, I hear how to implement the steps in my own life, it's also a great place to find a sponsor who can walk me through -solution- and the steps, they say in AA to "stick with the winners", if they don't have a sticker on their head, or a T-shirt that says "I'm a winner" how do we find them?
We find them at step studies, at book studies, at newcomer meetings freely offering what was so freely offered them, they use words like "Happy, Joyous, and Free", and Recovered, and they smile a lot, and they usually have a fellowship of people around them talking and laughing, you see them arrive early and leave late, and you'll know who they are when they say hello to you (if they are same sex) and there is something VERY strange about their eyes, it will leap out at you, they exude inner peace
-- Edited by LinBaba on Saturday 26th of February 2011 06:52:14 PM
__________________
it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
). I would just suggest to be ready with a mechanism to get things back on track just in case.