A fairly new (under a year) member of one of my groups posited the question: "Are we addicted to meetings now instead of alcohol?" His wording was unfortunate, obviously. But I think what he was getting at may have been legitimate.Some people go to AA every day. Good for them. That is obviously vastly preferable to drinking. Some others dont feel the need to go that often. Are those people putting their sobriety at risk? If ones sobriety is in jeopardy if they miss even one meeting, is it possible that they are failing to take advantage of other tools of the program, such as the 12 steps or a higher power?
What I found disappointing was the extreme reaction to his question. That entire meeting, and the whole meeting the NEXT week, was devoted to nearly everyone saying how dangerous such thinking was, how anybody who thinks that way must be denying he is an alcoholic, how he must be over-analyzing the program, how they bury the smart ones, etc. As if anybody who wasnt working the program exactly like them was doomed. It seemed like everyone found his question really threatening to their own sobriety, such that they had to attack him for it.
So, is there any answer to the question of how many meetings are appropriate?
-- Edited by zzworldontheweb on Thursday 17th of February 2011 10:18:41 PM
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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.
That is a really good question. It's something I have pondered in my short time in AA (90 days yesterday - yay!) but I haven't raised it because I know that all I will be doing is opening a can of worms and I don't want to do that to satisfy my own curiousity.
All I do know is that two meetings a week is my maximum. I tried doing the 90 in 90 days but by the end of the first month I found that if I went to more than two meetings I didn't feel well because I was thinking about alcohol for too much of the week. I also found that if I don't go to two meetings I feel restless and ill at ease because I hadn't received my dose of medicine and cleared the crap out of my head.
However I know somebody that had a very similar drinking history to me that needed to go to at least one meeting a day - and quite often went to more - who busted after a year and a bit sober when they missed a couple of days worth of meetings. He went back to his routine of going to as many meetings as possible, and was going well for a period only to bust again when he missed a couple.
So I guess that it is like anything with the program that isn't one of the twelve steps it is a case of doing what works for you. It may sound like heresy to some people but what got them sober might not be what I need to get sober, and the only qualification for membership is the desire to stop drinking.
I understand that much of the advice is well meaning and based on much experience but I find that comments like "You might like to try doing this" much easier to deal with than "You must try doing this".
No, absolutely not, working the steps with a sponsor then with sponsees does
Meetings can be helpful though, especially in early sobriety, or in times of difficulty, personally I consider them critical in very early sobriety to help achieve physical sobriety, but they in no way lead to spiritual and emotional sobriety, overall long term quality of sobriety comes purely from the steps, just like joining a Gym doesn't make me physically fit, exercise and eating well does, emotional sobriety is literally no different
I have done a number of "90 in 90's"
the rule of thumb I've heard is a meeting every 72 hours, although I don't go to anywhere near that many any more, although I am not adverse to hitting another 90 in 90 if I felt I needed it
What I found disappointing was the extreme reaction to his question. That entire meeting, and the whole meeting the NEXT week, was devoted to nearly everyone saying how dangerous such thinking was, how anybody who thinks that way must be denying he is an alcoholic, how he must be over-analyzing the program, how they bury the smart ones, etc. As if anybody who wasnt working the program exactly like them was doomed. It seemed like everyone found his question really threatening to their own sobriety, such that they had to attack him for it.
the program is contained in the book and passed along in meetings, meetings aren't the program, I do know people addicted to meetings, I don't necessarily mean people who go to meetings every day, a lot of us did that for many many years because it was our community, it was just what we did, and the thing is there is not a bunch of different ways to "work" the program of AA, there are clear cut instructions in the big book supplemented by the 12 and 12 precisely how to work "The Program" of AA, anything else isn't AA and shouldn't be called AA, it's something else, and if someone wants to work a different "program" far out, go ahead but dont bring that shit to an AA meeting and call it AA, because it's not
AA is AA and there are clear cut instructions, it's not confusing, if it's in the book and the instructions are followed, it's AA, if it's out of your own head it's not AA
I'm not even saying AA is "gospel" I'm just saying don't confuse what AA is and isn't, AA is work the steps out of the book with a sponsor, anything else is something else and not AA
What people get freaked out about is what happened when Treatment centers got so popular is they had group therapy, where folks went to share about what was going on with them, and over the years so many came from treatment they thought AA meetings were just an extension of treatment center "talk about your feelings" "relapse prevention", which they aren't, they are where our primary purpose is to carry the message, to carry the solution, not the problem, there is zero solution in a newcomer talking about his problems at group level, that's just carrying the disease, not the message
Now personally, for me, and this is my own character defect I guess, but I don't want to hear a word at an AA meeting from someone who hasn't worked the steps unless it's to ask for help, because in my opinion, they have nothing to offer, if AA meetings are about the program of AA and they have zero experience with the actual program of AA why are they speaking? All they have is an opinion of an experience they never had, and the entire program is about one alcoholic talking to another sharing his experience, strength, and hope, not opinion, This is probably because that is how it was explained to me, if I hadn't worked the steps and had some substantial sober time under my belt, like a year, it would behoove me to STFU, of course I ignored this and went to different meetings to share anyway, but I always got busted and got my buttchewed
for me, it's not that I or any old school AAers are "threatened" by the whole "meeting makers make it" "relapse prevention" "tips and tricks" "share my feelings" heavy drinkers sobriety crew, it's just what they have to offer is in no way AA nor does it have any place in an AA meeting, meetings aren't the program, the steps contained in the book are the program, the truth is that sort of thinking IS dangerous to the "real" alcoholic of the hopeless variety for whom the program was designed because just going to meetings won't give that alcoholic the spiritual experience needed for that alcoholic to get sober, so if they are told that meetings are the program and then it doesn't work for them, they think AA doesn't work, when the truth is many alcoholics leave AA thinking it doesn't work because no one told them "work the steps and have the spiritual awakening or die" but instead in total well meaning ignorance just said "keep coming back" and "meeting makers make it" and "don't drink and go to meetings"
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity Martin Luther King jr
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or to permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcohoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.
There is a solution. Almost none of us liked the self- searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been living it. When, therefore, we were approached by those in whom the problem had been solved, there was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at out feet. We have found much of heaven and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed.
The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences* which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.
If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help. This we did because we honestly wanted to, and were willing to make the effort.
Meetings are human Aid, and they are incredibly helpful, but to recover from alcoholism, we have to accept spiritual aid, of which an incredibly effective way to do so is the steps, meetings don't give that vital spiritual experience, ultimately meetings in early sobriety are the duct tape and bailing wire of sobriety, they help hold it together until a more permanent fix can be found, which is in the steps
A friend of mine wrote something interesting about it, now while I didn't wholly agree with it, it gave me food for thought, if I find it I'll post it
The Six Point Definition of An A.A. Group
The Six Point Definition of An A.A. Group from the 2/1990 version of the pamphlet "The A.A. Group":
1. All members of a group are alcoholics and all alcoholics are eligible for membership.
2. As a group, they are fully self-supporting.
3. A group's primary purpose is to help alcoholics recover through the Twelve Steps.
4. As a group they have no outside affiliation.
5. As a group, they have no opinion on outside issues.
6. As a group, their public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion, and they maintain anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV, and films.
-- Edited by LinBaba on Friday 18th of February 2011 03:55:41 AM
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Aloha ZZ...for me recovery is a way of life. If I don't have this way of life the other alternative I use to have was very near used up. I don't count meetings and I get to hear and experience a lot of solid recovery I would not have if I hadn't gone. When I don't go I rely on the journey of the past to keep me straight. Besides it's a spiritual journey and outside of the rooms it's an entirely different ball game.
Very good topic to bring up. More meetings may not always equal better sobriety.
Addicted to meetings? We don't get sober to hang out in meetings 24/7, but the last time I checked, nobody has gotten DUI's, been put in jail, or has done serious harm to families and others buy attending too many meetings.
Meetings and fellowship is where we develope support/connection with others, learn about the program ourselves and alcholism, get active in the group and help others
If a lot of meetings keep you sober at first, so be it, but we need to work on ourselves, the steps and spirtual growth, if we are thorough, the 10th step promises below will occur.
And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition. pg 85
Everyone has different life situations, kids, work, social inclinations and geography etc, that can make attending a lot of meetings harder for some than others. We can augment our meetings with phone calls, CD's,readings, Internet etc.
Personally, my first 2 years I went to about 4 per week, and I normally make about 3 per week these days.
I'm sure I could go to less and be OK, but I go because:
I am able, enjoy them and my friends are there
They keep me focused on my program/spirituality, and what is important in life.
I am deeply grateful for those who where there to help me, so it would be very selfish of me to not give back to those who saved my life, and helped me attain the great life I have today.
For me selfishness (the root of our problems) = not at meetings
-- Edited by Rob84 on Friday 18th of February 2011 12:33:15 AM
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
I've seen people go to a meeting every day for months and then drink. I go to one meeting a week and it's to carry the message not insure myself against wanting to drink, I haven't wanted to drink since I went through the steps with my sponsor, going to any lengths to get what they in the rooms spoke of. Reading the book, going to meetings, fellowship and the whole life mean nothing if I don't change. I changed . Miracles are perminent if I want them to be. As I think so shall I be. The program of AA starting with step one keeps me sober and working with other alcoholics , not meetings. That's just my truth though. But it is truth.
Jamie
-- Edited by Jamie D on Friday 18th of February 2011 01:29:21 AM
-- Edited by Jamie D on Friday 18th of February 2011 01:30:56 AM
Morning ZZ, BLESSINGS OF THE DAY! Great Topic,bet it did bring along a lot of "sparks" I have had many people ask the same question.Reminds me of the old piece of philosophy from those great scholars of the 60's/70's- Cheech&Chong from BigBamboo Album,guy walks in room and says"I used to be all messed up on drugs till I found the Lord,now Im all messed up on the Lord!!! (meetings) For me,I have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body,but as it states it is all contingent on my spiritual condition.I am not cured of Alcoholism. The main premise(purpose) of my personal faith beliefs and of our program are very similar: Be of maximum service to God and help others,therefore By applying spiritual principles in my life and actions that have been "worked" with a sponsor and ensuring all I do each day focuses on being God centered above"all' things I will continue to move forward.I attend meetings to give back ,do service and share my ESH with others. I am an active member of my home group(NEW DAZE) ,GSR for that group and partake in ASC doings and events).I also am part of planning program for quarterly 'Speaker Jams" our Saturday group(MEN DO RECOVER) puts on carrying the message to members from TRI-STATE AREA(ny/conn/new jersey)making coffee(highly regarded service:) :) So for me, meetings are involvement with the fellowship and sharing recovery with others. I also am very aware of 'Recovery at home" situations(keeping things in balance with my family).For me,God is the center of everything ,as I work to the best of my ability to remain close, everything else filters down.The obsession and compulsion to use has been removed and as long as I remain in a Godly spiritual condition I have no fear. I make more or less meetings based on how I am with God (Mon home group),it is not a mandate for me, It is not a duty, I enjoy them and will not drink if I miss one..We are all responsible for our own recoveries,we follow a guideline of suggestions and we work them the best we can,seeking the will of our God first..I can feel the cringing and squirming going on, God knows where I am at, so all is well!!Meeting makersmake it,90/90 you'll drink if you don't go/all great suggestions, but our "solution" is working the steps with a sponsor and applying them in our daily actions and lives and remaining God centered and helping others.Through God's grace and mercy first and doing the work next ,I have remained free for better than 26 years,a day at a time..Thanks for allowing me to take part in my own recovery and sharing what works for me........... Have a blessed and productive day!!
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
I can only say what was necessary for me. A meeting just about every day was essential for about a year and a half. Now at least 3 a week is necessary though I do this as the risk of becoming complacent and I know it. I keep myself in check and I still call my sponsor pretty much daily.
The question is one that people could (and it sounds like they did) sit and ponder for a while. In the end...who cares? Cuz...like you said it's way better than being actively addicted to alcohol.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
It's so interesting to me that AA's can behave that way, perhaps because I was a member of al-anon 3 years before I came to AA. "Extreme reactions" for me, are a sign of my unacceptance and judgement. But.... we happen to be a fellowship of control freaks, no doubt.
I treat both sides of my disease... I haven't stopped going to al-anon. It gives me the tools to stay on my side of the street. I know that when I determine that someone needs to change... there's only one person that needs changing, and that's ME. I don't know what's best for anyone else... in recovery or otherwise. I know what has worked for me, but I accept I am not anyone else's higher power. I've met AA's who don't seem to get this, even old-timers. I have a fellowship friend who has over 20 years, she likes to invite me out... she seems determined that I must progress faster than I am. When I tell her I'll talk to my sponsor about that... it really seems to really bug her. Not my problem. One of my defects, is making people my higher power. I had a habit of putting my first sponsor on a pedestal, making her my HP. She kept insisting we're just equal friends walking the same journey together. (She hated the "s" word...!)
Early on, I hated it when she suggested that I needed more meetings, changing my lifestyle was not easy. Today I don't have that attitude, I've walked away from too many meetings with major transformations and I don't want to forget that. Especially the day I went to a meeting which was held in a very large church hall... I happen to have a hearing loss and I did not hear one word at this meeting. I closed my eyes and felt sooo angry at God for bringing me to this effing meeting (hahaha) Strange thing happened... even though I didn't hear one word, I was changed. The energy of just sitting with the fellowship had changed me and l left with a peace I did not come in with. Today.... I don't "have" to go to meetings.... I "get" to go.
Basically, I get out of AA what I put into it. I used to go and not share... however, I've learned that I end up walking out with the same weight I walked in with... AA has become like a weight-loss program, it is there for my benefit... and others seem to benefit with wherever I'm at... I don't have to be perfect at AA, I just have to be where I am.... I still seem to be contributing to something bigger than myself. I have gone to flat-out vomit up some poisonous anger on the fellowship, and people still walked up to me.... to thank me. I never used to get it. I do today.
I've been sick the past few weeks and have not made as many meetings. My sponsor says I sound good. I have not lost my emotional sobriety which is amazing but.... I was sooo sick, everything was just kind of neutral, not much mattered. I did pray a lot, never stopped meditating. I came here often, I am so grateful for everyone here, it helped me a lot.
I'll resume my meeting schedule soon, 4 meetings a week is what works for me. Is that an "addiction" to meetings? I think my effing disease would LOVE for me to believe that. I am convinced, it is not the voice of my Higher power.
-- Edited by gladlee on Friday 18th of February 2011 10:30:42 AM
What works for me is going to meetings when I want to and more importantly when I don't want to.
For long periods of time I don't need to go to meetings, but I go because it helps to keep the meeting going for the next shaking wretch through the door. It also helps keep them going for when I NEED to go to a meeting.
So for me, first month about 2 meetings a week, gradually rose to 6 a week, now down to around 4 a week regular. But as i've been suffering from a bit of cranial rectal inversion of late, yep, I banged those meetings in. Daily. Just to listen.
The original post was - are we replacing alcohol addiction with meetings addiction? and Do more meetings unfailingly lead to better sobriety? - my answer, don't know and does it matter - to both questions?
But this is a bridge to normal living. It helps me to live with the civilians out there, without either wanting to hide from the pain or cause more pain. I know where to go when i need to sharpen my tools - and it ain't meetings, it's my sponsor and working the steps and especially steps 10 and 11. Meetings are a way of fulfilling step 12, but only in part.
meetings are not AA and are not a life long solution, they are a tool and a service. what abut all these guys who work offshore, who live where there are no meetings, who are bedridden? Do they become less sober, less spiritually well because they don't go to meetings every day?
meeting makers make it is one of the old saws. Meetings were a great support and comfort to me early on, but lasting sobriety came when i worked one on one with a sponsor, worked the steps and realised that i wasn't my own Higher Power.
it's a package deal. Like i read elswhere, just getting gym membership won't give you a six pack. Just watching people in the gym won't give you a six pack. You got to do the work too.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
Great thoughts guys, thank you. Please continue to chime in with any more.
The way I've been thinking is, maybe the number of meetings can legitimately be up to the individual, but it seems very risky to exit one meeting without SOME specific plan to go to the next one. Whether that be the next day, the next week, or after you get back from vacation, etc. Reasonable?
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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.
I go to meetings to (1) feel the sense of community, which is a big part of helping me stay sober and (2) gain insight from people who have worked the steps about my own step work. Hopefully when I have more useful insights to share I will also go to share my own experience with the steps. I go most every day because that feels right to me and I enjoy seeing my sober friends, especially because my profession is one where "everybody" drinks and collects wine and I like being brought back down to reality every day with the reminder that plenty of happy people DON'T drink, actually.
I think the reason people get defensive about how many meetings you "SHOULD" be going to is because, as Biker Bill said, "What works for me is going to meetings when I want to and more importantly when I don't want to." I feel that the route with the highest chance of success is doing exactly what all these other people with long-term sobriety have done, because I want what they have. A lot of those things are things I don't want to do, and things that they probably didn't want to do at the time. They did 90 in 90, so I did 90 and 90. I don't have to know why or how it was effective for them. I just trust that it worked for many so maybe it will work for me.
I think the attitude that "they bury the smart ones" happens because it's very easy to alter the program to your own preferences (or to avoid things you don't want to do) by rationalizing that you have decoded the underlying reason why one suggestion (such as 90 in 90) is given and how it does not apply to you personally, because you are too smart to need it, and how other people have just been brainwashed into thinking it's necessary.
Trust me, I'm a very, very intelligent and highly educated person, and generally very skeptical. But I find that just sticking with what's recommended to me without questioning it too much is one of my keys to success in AA, because nothing I've had suggested to me is hurting me any -- the worst that could happen is that it won't work and I wasted some time. Big deal. It's worth it for a chance at long-term sobriety. I have faith that once I have worked all the steps and get some serious time under my belt, I'll be able to see in retrospect why those things worked. "More will be revealed..."
Hi all. Interesting discourse here. As an over the road truck driver, I cannot always get to a meeting. When I can in various places around our country, I am able to get a wide variety experience, strength, and hope. I have always been welcomed no matter where I am at. I carry a national directory with me, and that is invaluable to me. Sometimes, it is weeks between meetings because logistics just don't work. There have been many a night that I NEEDED a meeting and couldn't get to one. So, I call my sponsor more frequently. When I sobered up, I did more than the 90/90. I had to for me. That is what worked for me. I worked the 12 steps, with my sponsor. I did a 4th and 5th step, twice, so far... This program is comprehensive in and of itself. It gives you step by step instructions, and suggestions on what worked for the people who wrote it... IF you live these steps, these instructions, these suggestions, invariably your life will change for the better. No one should tell you what you MUST do to maintain your program, or your sobriety. My sponsor made that very clear to me from the get go. He often did, and still does offer suggestions, and opinions. He also has an annoying habit of just raising one eye brow when he hears me say something he does not either agree with, or is just plain out and out stinking thinking on my part. I see that dang eye brow raise, and inevitabilly I go away and think about it. I usually go back to him and talk it out. He won't give me a direct answer, but makes ME figure it out. Usually, it comes down to doing the "next right thing". How do you know what the next right thing is, you may ask? You will know in your heart, or your gut, IF you listen. Does going to 90/90 and daily meetings make a program? If it does for you, it does. If you work your program, and live your program, and cannot get to meetings as often as you maybe would like, does that say you have no program? Hell no. You have to decide for YOU what works. If you don't know, talk with your sponsor. He/she may not give you a pat answer, but I will bet that in talking about it, you will find your own way. Dave
ZZ, The first thing I thought of was "Will attending FEWER meetings HELP?" Also, if a newcomer's question is all it takes to threaten someone's sobriety then someone is already in trouble.
My answer to the new person would be "yes. yes we are."
I believe that my addictions are the result of A) inappropriate, immoral and unhealthy means of filling a void in my "soul" and B) the chemical & behavioral learning of such means. Meetings, surrender to a higher power, spiritual awakening, sponsor/sponsee relationships and a moral & sound philosophy and code of living my life has replaced "A" and repitition over time satisfies "B". My addictions are the repetition of a learned behavior. The Program must be maintained, because the old "B" isn't completely overwritten; the behavior is still there, waiting to respond to the stimuli.
That's what I feel, think and believe. AA meetings are a vital part of my overall recovery. They provide much of what I need in order to survive my addiction.
I was told I could find out how many meetings I needed by slowly cutting back the number I attended until I drank. Then I would know.
Today I go to meetings to support the newcomer and to remember via working with newcomers what it used to be like.
A very important reason for newcomers to attend meetings is that potential sponsors can be found in AA meetings. My experience has been that newcomers seldom have any luck finding an AA sponsor in the pool hall or down at the local watering hole.
Larry, -------------- "Going to meetings is like taking aspirin before a headache."
-- Edited by Larry_H on Saturday 19th of February 2011 10:31:44 PM
What's missing, form this question, how many meetings (per week/month) over sobriety time. Obviously someone in their first couple of years needs more meetings then some with 5,10,20... What else is missing is are some of these folks going to meetings every day instead of working the program/reading/working with others as Linbaba laid out? And lastly, so what if someone likes spending an hour a day at a meeting instead of drinking/killing themselves and others. My guess is that the question was a nuerotic one, in that the asker was trying to rationalize his way out of going to a suggested amount of meetings. I probably asked the same question, during the first 2 years, when I was going to meetings off and on and drinking about every month or two.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 20th of February 2011 12:13:09 AM
What's missing, form this question, how many meetings (per week/month) over sobriety time. Obviously someone in their first couple of years needs more meetings then some with 5,10,20... What else is missing is are some of these folks going to meetings every day instead of working the program/reading/working with others as Linbaba laid out? And lastly, so what if someone likes spending an hour a day at a meeting instead of drinking/killing themselves and others. My guess is that the question was a nuerotic one, in that the asker was trying to rationalize his way out of going to a suggested amount of meetings. I probably asked the same question, during the first 2 years, when I was going to meetings off and on and drinking about every month or two.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 20th of February 2011 12:13:09 AM
Theres another study floating around that "tracked' people who actually wanted to get sober, and who did like a 90 in 90, and their results are roughly what is listed in the big book, 50% right away, 25% after some relapses, and 25% not then (who knows if they came back later)
Personally I have never seen anyone not get sober that was honest, open minded, and willing and who worked the steps, the people who I have seen "not make it" in every single case were "balking" somehow, whether it was by holding on to their old ideas, not getting a sponsor, not working the steps, somehow, somewhere there was a core of reservations and old ideas holding them back, when the program is worked it works strangely enough
I like what Mr Sponsorpants wrote about it (mainly because he has a new take on my whole "gym" analogy
Dear Mr. SponsorPants,
I've read a lot about the success/failure rate of AA, and it doesn't seem to be a very effective way to stay sober.
I'll ignore the somewhat baiting tone in the body of your email and pull this out to address -- if I have mischaracterized what you wrote, I apologize, even though you and I both know I did not. I have seen a lot of different stats on this topic. As with all statistics the results seem to vary based upon what and how something is measured. For example, if you were to measure "came to AA and then never drank again" vs. "came to AA, had a relapse, came back and stayed sober" vs. "came to AA, slipped around for a couple of years, then stayed sober" you would have three very different statistical measurements which would, in and of themselves, be as accurate as the math could make it, yet give three very different interpretations of AA's effectiveness. Not all medicine works for all diseases. Not all medicine works with the first treatment. Sometimes people have more than one illness and the one impedes the healing of the other. AA has many supporters and many detractors. Both sides are equally able to seize upon some set of stats to support their bias -- but that has nothing to do with AA. That's just human nature.
Going to the gym has never really worked for me as a way to get in shape. You know why? Even though I bought a membership, I don't go to the gym. So obviously, gyms are not an effective way to get in shape. I saw some statistics on how many fat people in America have gym memberships vs. how many go vs. how many go for a little while then give up and are still fat. Against the backdrop of all that, it sure looks to me like gyms don't work. But some of those gym members who go and work out and stick with it get in better shape -- and they have the nerve to tell me that if I did that I would too! Obviously they're wrong and deluded, and there is possibly something very sinister at work.
My direct experience is that for people who are real alcoholics and who follow the body of AA's suggestions to the best of their ability and work all 12 Steps, their alcoholism is arrested and they are able to maintain physical sobriety -- and from those two things mental, emotional and spiritual sobriety follow.
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
Nice analogy from Mr. sponsorpants. I want you all to know that the reason that I throw out that well known 5% stat is to encourage newbies and retreads to give it all they've got! I was definitely in the third category People who slipped in and out, for awhile, til they were willing to work the whole program. I'm mystified at "one night wonders" as I call them. Folks that never drank again after their very first meeting *cough* barisax *cough*. My Mother was/is one of those.
