I am sorry for your pain and confusion.
Wayne

Pardon my Zen, but when the need to take action feels overwhelming...to take NO action IS an action.

Peace,
Rob

jonijoni1 wrote:

---

I know with all my heart that intimate relationships in early recovery can be very deadly at worst, and extremely painful and uncomfortable at times, at best.

Do I want to continue to have the high of elation, and the low of a bear trap closing in on my chest, one then the other, like a merry go round?

Joy, pain... joy, pain.... the extremes are unbelievable.

And I don't think I know how to act right at this point, much less THINK right. All I know is I hate the bungee jump I take every couple of days or so thanks to getting involved with a man, in my early recovery.

OUCH. And I guess when I am ready to do something about it, I will do aomething about it. Until then, my stubborn ass gets to endure the joy of a thousand pounds on my shoulders and hard to breath.....

---

I used to say : "I will never do this again"

Then I learned to say "I might not be done doing this"

I eventually learned that the rules have been around for a long time, that they probably wouldn't make an exception for me, I spent my life thinking that life was going to play by my rules and I was wrong, and that old homilies and sayings and common wisdom have been around for a long time for a reason

Just as in AA alcohol itself is our best persuader, that frothy emotional appeal doesn't work, that some newcomers just aren't done, that they need to go beat themselves up into even more of a bloody pulp, the same is true of relationships in early sobriety, some of us are especially stupid and stubborn about these things and learning the right course is a tedious process for some of us

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

When I was new and all over the map, having my high highs and low lows, and having legal troubles and drama every day and I KNEW I was sicker then a dog, I KNEW I was mentally ill, one fact floated to the surface, kind of a Woody Allen/Groucho Marx realization

That anyone that was attracted to me was bad news and pretty mentally ill themselves, maybe even sicker then me, and that I wanted nothing to do with them, like I would never join a club that would have me as a member, so I certainly wouldn't date anyone attracted to me at that time, I mean how sick did that make them?

and the one thing I have learned is insanity is contagious, so if I wasn't crazy before I started dating them, I certainly was crazy soon thereafter

Well like you, I didn't just want to touch the hot stove, I slept with the hot stove, all of them, over and over, until I learned not to, that it hurt too much

If you can't stop what you are doing, keep doing what you are doing until you are done

until then ..... well...... good luck, try not to die

 

My first sponsor used to say "when are you going to stop sticking your **** into the meat grinder?", I eventually got the message.

billyjack wrote:

---

my sponser told me early on, that not getting into a relationship in the first year was treatment center jargon, and that AA's position is that we stay out of that controvercy..

Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. But above all, we tried to be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes-absurd extremes, perhaps. One set of voices cry that sex is a lust of our lower nature, a base necessity of procreation. Then we have the voices who cry for sex and more sex; who bewail the institution of marriage; who think that most of the troubles of the race are traceable to sex causes. They think we do not have enough of it, or that it isn't the right kind. They see its significance everywhere. One school would allow man no flavor for his fare and the other would have us all on a straight pepper diet. We want to stay out of this controversy. We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone's sex conduct. We all have sex problems. We'd hardly be human if we didn't. What can we do about them?.......

What I was told was to take the steps and stay connected to AA and other alcoholics so I could survive it.

-- Edited by billyjack on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 02:10:29 PM

---

I agree with your sponsor, I also agree with what Bill wrote after a few more years of sobriety under his belt

CREATION gave us instincts for a purpose. Without them we wouldn't be complete human beings. If men and women didn't exert themselves to be secure in their persons, made no effort to harvest food or construct shelter, there would be no survival. If they didn't reproduce, the earth wouldn't be populated. If there were no social instinct, if men cared nothing for the society of one another, there would be no society. So these desires-for the sex relation, for material and emotional security, and for companionship-are perfectly necessary and right, and surely God-given.

Yet these instincts, so necessary for our existence, often far exceed their proper functions. Powerfully, blindly, many times subtly, they drive us, dominate us, and insist upon ruling our lives. Our desires for sex, for material and emotional security, and for an important place in society often tyrannize us. When thus out of joint, man's natural desires cause him great trouble, practically all the trouble there is. No human being, however good, is exempt from these troubles. Nearly every serious emotional problem can be seen as a case of misdirected instinct. When that happens, our great natural assets, the instincts, have turned into physical and mental liabilities.

Step Four is our vigorous and painstaking effort to discover what these liabilities in each of us have been, and are. We want to find exactly how, when and where our natural desires have warped us. We wish to look squarely at the unhappiness this has caused others and ourselves. By discovering what our emotional deformities are, we can move toward their correction. Without a willing and persistent effort to do this, there can be little sobriety or contentment for us. Without a searching and fearless moral inventory, most of us have found that the faith which really works in daily living is still out of reach.


Before tackling the inventory problem in detail, let's have a closer look at what the basic problem is. Simple examples like the following take on a world of meaning when we think about them. Suppose a person places sex desire ahead of everything else. In such a case, this imperious urge can destroy his chances for material and emotional security

How frequently we see a frightened human being determined to depend completely upon a stronger person for guidance and protection. This weak one, failing to meet life's responsibilities with his own resources, never grows up. Disillusionment and helplessness are his lot. In time all his protectors either flee or die, and he is once more left alone and afraid.


But that is not all of the danger. Every time a person imposes his instincts unreasonably upon others, unhappiness follows. If the pursuit of wealth tramples upon people who happen to be in the way, then anger, jealousy, and revenge are likely to be aroused. If sex runs riot, there is a similar uproar. Demands made upon other people for too much attention, protection, and love can only invite domination or revulsion in the protectors themselves-two emotions quite as unhealthy as the demands which evoked them. When an individual's desire for prestige becomes uncontrollable, whether in the sewing circle or at the international conference table, other people suffer and often revolt. This collision of instincts can produce anything from a cold snub to a blazing revolution. In these ways we are set in conflict not only with ourselves, but with other people who have instincts, too.

By now the newcomer has probably arrived at the following conclusions: that his character defects, representing instincts gone astray, have been the primary cause of his drinking and his failure at life; that unless he is now willing to work hard at the elimination of the worst of these defects, both sobriety and peace of mind will still elude him; that all the faulty foundation of his life will have to be torn out and built anew on bedrock. Now willing to commence the search for his own defects, he will ask, "Just how do I go about this? How do I take inventory of myself?"

Since Step Four is but the beginning of a lifetime practice, it can be suggested that he first have a look at those personal flaws which are acutely troublesome and fairly obvious. Using his best judgment of what has been right and what has been wrong, he might make a rough survey of his conduct with respect to his primary instincts for sex, security, and society. Looking back over his life, he can readily get under way by consideration of questions such as these:

When, and how, and in just what instances did my selfish pursuit of the sex relation damage other people and me? What people were hurt, and how badly? Did I spoil my marriage and injure my children? Did I jeopardize my standing in the community? Just how did I react to these situations at the time? Did I burn with a guilt that nothing could extinguish? Or did I insist that I was the pursued and not the pursuer, and thus absolve myself? How have I reacted to frustration in sexual matters? When denied, did I become vengeful or depressed? Did I take it out on other people? If there was rejection or coldness at home, did I use this as a reason for promiscuity?

Alcoholics especially should be able to see that instinct run wild in themselves is the underlying cause of their destructive drinking. We have drunk to drown feelings of fear, frustration, and depression. We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk again to make more passions possible. We have drunk for vainglory-that we might the more enjoy foolish dreams of pomp and power. This perverse soul-sickness is not pleasant to look upon. Instincts on rampage balk at investigation. The minute we make a serious attempt to probe them, we are liable to suffer severe reactions.

The most common symptoms of emotional insecurity are worry, anger, self-pity, and depression. These stem from causes which sometimes seem to be within us, and at other times to come from without. To take inventory in this respect we ought to consider carefully all personal relationships which bring continuous or recurring trouble. It should be remembered that this kind of insecurity may arise in any area where instincts are threatened. Questioning directed to this end might run like this: Looking at both past and present, what sex situations have cause me anxiety, bitterness, frustration, or depression? Appraising each situation fairly, can I see where I have been at fault? Did these perplexities beset me because of selfishness or unreasonable demands? Or, if my disturbance was seemingly caused by the behavior of others, why do I lack the ability to accept conditions I cannot change? These are the sort of fundamental inquiries that can disclose the source of my discomfort and indicate whether I may be able to alter my own conduct and so adjust myself serenely to self-discipline.

But it is from our twisted relations with family, friends, and society at large that many of us have suffered the most. We have been especially stupid and stubborn about them. The primary fact that we fail to recognize is our total inability to form a true partnership with another human being. Our egomania digs two disastrous pitfalls. Either we insist upon dominating the people we know, or we depend upon them far too much. If we lean too heavily on people, they will sooner or later fail us, for they are human, too, and cannot possibly meet our incessant demands. In this way our insecurity grows and festers. When we habitually try to manipulate others to our own willful desires, they revolt, and resist us heavily. Then we develop hurt feelings, a sense of persecution, and a desire to retaliate. As we redouble our efforts at control, and continue to fail, our suffering becomes acute and constant. We have not once sought to be one in a family, to be a friend among friends, to be a worker among workers, to be a useful member of society. Always we tried to struggle to the top of the heap, or to hide underneath it. This self-centered behavior blocked a partnership relation with any one of those about us. Of true brotherhood we had small comprehension.

Then comes the acid test: can we stay sober, keep in emotional balance, and live to good purpose under all conditions?

A continuous look at our assets and liabilities, and a real desire to learn and grow by this means, are necessities for us. We alcoholics have learned this the hard way. More experienced people, of course, in all times and places have practiced unsparing self-survey and criticism. For the wise have always known that no one can make much of his life until self-searching becomes a regular habit, until he is able to admit and accept what he finds, and until he patiently and persistently tries to correct what is wrong.

When a drunk has a terrific hangover because he drank heavily yesterday, he cannot live well today. But there is another kind of hangover which we all experience whether we are drinking or not. That is the emotional hangover, the direct result of yesterday's and sometimes today's excesses of negative emotion-anger, fear, jealousy, and the like. If we would live serenely today and tomorrow, we certainly need to eliminate these hangovers. This doesn't mean we need to wander morbidly around in the past. It requires an admission and correction of errors now. Our inventory enables us to settle with the past. When this is done, we are really able to leave it behind us. When our inventory is carefully taken, and we have made peace with ourselves, the conviction follows that tomorrow's challenges can be met as they come.

It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What about "justifiable" anger? If somebody cheats us, aren't we entitled to be mad? Can't we be properly angry with self-righteous folk? For us of A.A. these are dangerous exceptions. We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.

Few people have been more victimized by resentments than have we alcoholics. It mattered little whether our resentments were justified or not. A burst of temper could spoil a day, and a well-nursed grudge could make us miserably ineffective. Nor were we ever skillful in separating justified from unjustified anger. As we saw it, our wrath was always justified. Anger, that occasional luxury of more balanced people, could keep us on an emotional jag indefinitely. These emotional "dry benders" often led straight to the bottle.Other kinds of disturbances--jealousy, envy, self--pity, or hurt pride-did the same thing

So I don't tell my sponsees or my friends in AA -not- to do things like -switch addictions- such as jumping immediately into a relationship so one doesn't have to face one's feelings and actually -get sober- but I tell them what is likely to happen, what happened to me, what the overall experience of AA is, what the Big Book says, what the 12 and 12 says, then I say "run along now and go sleep with your hot stove, I will be here for you if you make it back alive"

Some do, some don't, I aint God so I don't know which ones will make it, but the ones that do are sho nuff ready to work the steps when they come crawling back, so I don't "arbit" peoples behavior if they choose to play on the freeway either, but I tell em they likely to get run over a few times, it's not "don't do it" it's "at best you gonna get hurt, at worst you gonna get killed, and your chances of finding "true love" are about the same as winning the lottery, but have fun and come see me when you are done"

The truth of the matter is I have learned that people (including myself) are going to do what they are going to do no matter what anybody says, so what I try to do is say something they will remember if they live, I don't tell newcomers not to drink if they want to drink, I tell them where the solution is and what will likely happen if they drink, I don't tell people not to touch hot stoves, I tell them they are likely to get burned if they do, and that I can teach them how to stop touching hot stoves if they so choose, plus give them some balm"

-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 03:03:43 PM

I think you DO know what to do, it's just difficult.

What was labeled "treatment center jargon" (Billyjack's sponsor) is simply the learned, proven, and expressed wisdom of relapse prevention strategies---designed for the treatment of alcoholism/addiction, NOT intended for incorporation into the A.A. steps/program/fellowship.

Those who drag all kinds of things from treatment settings into A.A., until it deceptively seems to become a part of A.A. wisdom, are often the very ones who never really read the Big Book.

Treatment-based information should not be devalued as "jargon" just because it ain't in the Big Book. Treatment and A.A. are two different, but not necessarily opposing, approaches to attaining and maintaining sobriety. People use lots of tools to stay sober and maintain emotional sobriety, from many sources and resources...but that doesn't make those tools part of the principles of the steps of A.A. nor does it make them invalid tools.

Billyjack and LinBaba shine the light on the heart of the matter---we are clearly advised to stay out of the sexual behavior controversy, and just as clearly advised to attend to the 4th step as we seek to find emotional balance and integrity so that we CAN practice these principles in all our affairs. For many people, that may include staying out of intimate relationships during early sobriety. There is often no conflict between treatment center education and A.A. perspectives...sometimes it's all in the semantics.

Aquaman wrote:

---

I would like to act with you in a community theatre production of "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest" with you as Nurse Ratchid and me as Billy Bibbett, just because he's such a complex character, not because I want you to yell at me for having sex with a prostitute.

---

LOOOOOOOOOOOOL Rob, YOU TOO are awesome.  And this brought a laugh to me, so I hope it brought a smile to Joni.

Hang in there Joni.  I hope you find the peace you are looking for. xoxoxo
Amy

 

Dang...Phil is a playa