So my wife and I went to the second and finally session of mediation yesterday. Up to this point I felt it was the right decision. I worked on this for a long time to the best of my ability. We sat in mediation and I cryed uncontrollably at times. My whole attitude and outlook did a 360 turn. What's going on? Up to this point I've been non emotional about the whole thing. What I've realized is I've been non emotional about everything for the past 2 + years. I haven't been emotional at all. I've had trouble relating in meetings to those that cry. I ask myself where's my tears of gratitude. I started to doubt my decision and put some thought to what happened? Self reflection. Did I go into this without expecting what the outcome would be/ look like? I thought I did, but now question it. My wife has stated the whole time that she didn't feel comfortable with this. There is something that doesn't feel right. I heard her- but was my agenda my important. I thought maybe she was just dealing with her Fear.
I went to work after and talked with my boss who knows my story. I started to realize this woman cares a great deal about me and people and always has. I haven't been to nice to her for the past 2 years. Not mean or anything; I just couldn't bring to the surface that this is a very nice caring people. Eventhough I knew this. I couldn't accept her for who she was. Self Pity? Probably; but when I look at it honestly I've pushed her away from me. Sorta like don't bother me. You bring stress to me please stay away.
I went to my sons hockey practice last night and said hi to one of the parents. The parent responded and we talk general talk. Then the group of folks around us joined in. It then appeared to me that some of these folks are nice people. I've done the same thing to them. I've pushed them away from me. At times thinking I was different or some how better. Arrogant behavoir? Reverse of humility.
I then went home and talked with my wife. I started to realize I pushed her away the same as the people described above. I alienated her too. I've been self absorbed and not listening to her. It was like I'm happy(or thought that I was) either come along for the ride or fall behind. Your choice. Very cold behavoir. Taking what I learned in The Program and others to the extreme I think. I do everything to the extreme. I've known taking anything to the extreme is not good. I just never realized I was doing it.
What the hell is going on with me? I know I'm rigid and practice the program as closely as possible. Maybe to a fault. Have I been so rigid with working my program that some how it's become all about me and anything in path to what I think is uncomfortable/confrontational pushed away? Have I thought I've been using intellect over emotions but really used avoidance over emotions?
I believe in a HP(God). I make contact with him on a daily basis. Is this a wake up call? Humility? Another moment of clarity?
I'm really messed up. I thought I was doing good and trying to the best of my ability to be a better person. Have I put myself in front of others to the extreme? I realize it's God, Mike and everyone else, but have I left the everyone else far behind or out of the picture?
Hey Mike, I have no answers, advice or magic bullets for you on this one, just some experience
I did the same thing, albeit with different symptoms, I pushed everyone away who wasn't AA and immersed myself in meetings and the fellowship to what became an unhealthy dependence, I became incredibly selfish and self centered but didn't think so, as in had NO idea I was doing it, just was getting more and more F'ed up inside, more unhappy, more frustrated
For me this is when the process of "individuation" started taking place, like Dean found answers in Coda and John Bradshaw, I found answers in step 3 reading about "The actor" but the actor with the good intentions, I also read a book called "Stage B Recovery" and sought therapy, the first few years had been about learning to live a life free of alcohol, the second stage began to be about learning how to live with others, learning who I was, learning how to be comfortable in my own skin, but the transition was awful, nothing worse then a sober bottom
In my experience we men go through this in year 3 after the terrible two's, then again in year 5 more stuff comes bubbling up, then for some reason again in year seven, when we get selfish about finances, retirement plans etc. to me this is normal and part of growth, and the people I know that navigate this with an open heart and grow utilizing the tools of the program rather then "stuffing it" are the people who "have what I want" because they keep growing as human beings
Doors open and doors close but the hallways are a bitch, and in the meantime it's a mean time
I finally decorated the hallways since I spent so much time there
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it's not the change that's painful, it's the resistance to change that is painful
It was initiated by me. Back in October 2010- I felt I reached a breaking point. My wife and I discussed it many times that we were going in opposite directions and getting further apart and neither one of us were happy. She wanted to try counseling, I went with her but my head told me she should be working on herself and me on myself. I believe I picked that up from meetings, talking with other's etc. So I went with her but honestly had a very closed mind. I would get engage(extreme Mike) and monoplize the whole session and then say to myself, why didn't she say anything? Because I wouldn't shut up. Why is this just coming to me now? So I can say that effort didn't resolve anything and my head said this isn't working. I had in my mind what the end result should be and continued on that path. It was like lets get to our destination and get it over with.
It then became a 60/40 or 70/30 deal. Me pushing it more than her. What I realize now is I started to build my case against her from that point or probably even before that. Not intentionally; just what I did. I started to see her defects and focus more on them, then her qualities. I think my brain was trying to somehow justify what I think was the end result. I was still respectful with her, even she admitted that but I started heading in a direction and she felt she was just tagging along.
As we got closer to now it became a 90/10 deal me. I thought it was the right thing to do for all those involved.
My kids are actually doing great. My wife and I are the one's suffering. Neither one of us want it now. Now we're beaten ourselves up, more me- about how did we get here and why wasn't I more aware of my surroundings what I was doing.
I can't go through with this if I'm not 100% sure. I don't want to have any regrets for me, wife or my kids. It would eat me up.
So we are each taking time to disgest this. I'm beatin myself up over why didn't I realize this prior to now, mediation and telling the kids? What if we don't go through with it. We then have to go back to them and turn there world upside down again? I know projecting, cross that bridge if/when I need to, but it's on mind.
______ Lin- I did the same thing, albeit with different symptoms, I pushed everyone away who wasn't AA and immersed myself in meetings and the fellowship to what became an unhealthy dependence, I became incredibly selfish and self centered but didn't think so, as in had NO idea I was doing it, just was getting more and more F'ed up inside, more unhappy, more frustrated. ______________
Yes, I can relate with this. I believe I've done the same thing. I'm very rigid and take things to the extreme and literally. I think it's blocked me off from anyone other than a member of the Fellowship. I'm reading Codependent No More- but like AA I find myself taking it to the extreme- like people own their own feelings- so I let them do that. I detach. But, it's like I don't even want to listen or hear how they fell prior to letting them own their own feelings. Damn it. I seem to have no balance.
ZZ- _______ If the mediation you're discussing is related to divorce, might this be a wake-up call to reconsider? ___________ Yes, that's a possibility. It's just very frustrating/shameful now that we've told the kids. Maybe this is part of the process. Don't know. But, we just turned their world upside down and now we would be doing it again...... Is this a big deal- I don't know?
Mike, When my emotions started to flow, I thought I would go insane. I become very clear to me. No damn wonder why I drank !!!!!!!!!, and drugged!!!!!!!!!!, nobody in their right mind would welcome those feelings. These feelings felt life threatening. Numb them bastards. I learned that they were just feeling's "Not Prophecies." I did not need to run from them. Actually I was told to feel them, own them, then learn how to Respond to them rather than React to them. Sort of like O.K. Yes your there, but----------------------------------------------- New solutions then started to appear on my Perspective on things. By the way kid's were created Very Durable, I know they respect Honesty, and will forever appreciate your Example of how to work through tough times. From My Perspective---------------- Thing's are right on Track. Man Hug with Gentleness, Wayne
Follow your heart. My grandsponsor tells me that when my heart and my head match up...go with it.
You were crying from the heart for a reason. Like all good sober alcoholics you are analyzing this thing to death. I'm not sure you are going to rationalize the right answer. Meditate and see what's inside your heart Mike. Is there love? Can you accept her the way she is? Can you rekindle the romance? What is in your heart? You are going to go in circles with all the analyzing.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Hi Mike, I'm thinking of the program mantra, "when you don't know what to do, do nothing."
I had filed for divorce twice. The day after I filed the first time, my sponsor took me to an al-anon meeting in Detroit, a meeting with mostly AA's. I was amazed at the level of honesty, I never heard that kind of honesty in a regular al-anon meeting!! During the drive home, I knew that I had much more work to do on myself. So I withdrew the petition. Months later, I filed again.... long story. But when I walked into my attorney's office this time, I was calm. It was still sad, I wanted things to be different, but I accepted my powerlessness and I believed I had spent enough time contemplating HP's will... knowing my HP would never treat me the way my husband was treating me.
While I was in the "hallway" before the second filing, my sponsor was trying to get me to realize that I had to FIRST be the kind of spouse that I would want my spouse to be. (kinda like, "Be the change you want to see in the world.") She also had me make a list all the things I wanted in a relationship and then told me to give it all to myself first. I can honestly say, I have no regrets regarding my behavior up until the divorce, I wanted to make it work. I was a good, loyal, honest, trustworthy, loving wife. And I was powerless over the fact that I was married to an active alcoholic.
I also want to mention.... Before my whole drama unfolded, my sponsor had filed for divorce from her husband. She withdrew it. Her husband later filed. He withdrew it. She told me she realized, he wasn't the perfect man.... but he was a Good man. And that's all she really wanted. Last week, they celebrated 30 years of marriage together and are planning on a trip to Hawaii....
It's okay to change our mind. It's okay.
As for the kids... it's been nearly 3 years since our divorce was final... my kids would still welcome a reconciliation! I can't imagine you'll "turn their world upside down" at this point. Be where you are. Sit quietly with your Higher power and be still. All is well, Mike.
-- Edited by gladlee on Wednesday 9th of February 2011 01:11:25 PM
Mike wrote: It's just very frustrating/shameful now that we've told the kids. Maybe this is part of the process. Don't know. But, we just turned their world upside down and now we would be doing it again......
do you have a worry list? No? Title a piece of paper with Worry List write 20 ofyour worries on a piece of paper. then cross out the title Worry, and write "Prayer" now you have your work cut out for you.
Kids usually want their parents to stay together. if you stay together without making a big thing about it, they will see "oh, they are still together" and be happy. what they see will mean much more to them than what you explain about it.... or did you tell your kids you are perfect and know the future?
Maybe you should make announcements every night! like, God works miracles every day... and Love is not just a feeling, it is an action word..... OR announce what you think your purpose on earth could be..... maybe start bringing 'a thought for the day' to the table
sobriety is wonderful, emotional sobriety is a God-loving miracle that others can see in you. no explanations needed. you walk it, no need to talk it.
none of us has "arrived" we are all still learning how to navigate in this world. wearing the program like a shield and armor around non AAs might not be the best way to live, but it served its purpose. now Get over it. sounds like you are taking off that armor and are starting to feel again and even "see" better. Listen twice as much as you talk... that always helps.
i may be full of shit, it don't really matter, but if you listen with your heart it won't lie to you, if you can't hear anything then don't do anything.... just do the next right thing in front of you.
sorry about the sermon, i did get carried away. take what you need, toss the rest. hugs sheila/jj
Hey Mike I can only tell you I am lifting you and your family up to the God of my understanding as this is a difficult situation..I can also tell you that when my first wife and I started going wrong in 1968,I made no attempt to get help/counselling /opinions etc, it just drew further and further away until it was gone.Believe me at times,thru the years, I thought well maybe if I tried to make it work ,blah .blah.but I know now I am where God had always wanted me.Dont feel you are buried to far into this that you cannot turn around..10th step inventory here and get deep inside..We do have to be careful we dont go to compulsive ends in other things(all) we do ,because I'll keep it on me,I am compulsive in everthing,when its good ,its called a goal ,when its bad its called a vice,but I go in totally, it has taken me many years,right up until now to know this about myself,own it and work on it..Im glad you were able to shed some tears, 2 of God's greatest gifts to us laughter and tears..We need our program for obvious reasons but there is also much more help available to us and do not be afraid to pursue it if you feel it necessary.Keep sharing ....In support..
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Aloha Mike...Your support here blows my mind!! I believe that you are in the right place at the right time for the right reasons. I also believe that you have had an extended AHA! moment and I am glad for you. As for glad?...Glad Lee's post is almost mirror image of my own. When in doubt DON'T!! Become the spouse you want to have. Feeling shame is still only a feeling. "Picture eating crow", my sponsor said. "Once you get past the feathers and cook the bird well it taste just like chicken". "Humility is being teachable and most mistakes are the best teachers."
"Sorry, I was wrong" was the most powerful statement I have been taught in this program of recovery. It's okay to be wrong. Humans often are.
Your post sounds like a 5th step and that you were looking for reasons to change. Awesome that your HP wiped your windows for you and your vision has become clearer. It has. You have been very open and honest and this is one of the consequences to that. Might not a solution be to refocus on Mike and Mike alone and how he response to a person, place and thing rather than the person, place or thing...What is my part in it?
Glad Lee mentioned something else that she experienced that mirrors my own recovery...AA's at an Al-Anon meeting. "Don't reject a thing before you first humbly consider it." Kinda sorta like my sponsor instructed and it is also in the BB.
I'm grateful for you journey and being allowed to watch it. It inspires me and makes me grateful for the fellowships. I am also humbled by the unconditional love of those who support you here. (((hugs)))
Hope you might reconsider the couples counseling. It helped enormously when my former fiance and I did it (both sober), even though we still separated, we are tight friends (no animosity and no kids). I wish my ex-husband had been willing to go to counseling. I think by not doing so, we never had a chance, which affected our daughter deeply. Very ugly, angry split-and we were both using/drinking. You a fortunate to be going through this sober.
Hey MikeB, At this point, is your Wife still willing to work on this relationship? Not meaning to be harsh, most of your posts have been about you. It's always worth working for unless there is some trust barrier like infidelity. If it's just a stale situation, that's pretty easy to turn around with marriage counseling. Doesn't sound like you all have any smoking gun issues like abuse ect.. If you're having a change of heart, there's probably not a lot time left. I was able to turn a relationship around one time by using the program tool of "starting over". I said to my sig other, "Can we just start over, like we never dated before". It worked pretty well, she married me, a couple years later, 14 years ago. We still go out on dates and i treat her like she is my girl friend.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 9th of February 2011 04:53:45 PM
I'm not you of course, but I've been married a long time, and I know it takes a lot of effort and perseverance but it is well worth it. It really really takes trying to see it from the other person's point of view. Also you may want to consider the possibility that your kids are not as fine with it as they appear. They may just not know how to react.
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Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's.
Great thread, thanks for sharing Mike. I could totally relate to and understand what you're saying.
I have been in the same situation at times, altho my husband and I aren't in the process of mediation. I have had some of the same thoughts as you as well.
I must remember what my sponsor told me awhile ago ....
My life should be balanced in this order ...
God, Family, AA.
When I follow this, things go MUCH smoother than anything I could ever come up with.
Thank you all for sharing open and honestly with me. ____ Dean, Yes- she always has been willing. For some reason we've never been able to put it all together. There's been no infidelity. She did have a relationship with another man during the 1st year of sobriety. I was working hard on myself and unavailable to meet her needs, she was not heard nor could I manage to work on myself and have enough left over for her. It's just the way it happened. A man entered her life and they talked and she got caught up in that emotional relationship for about a year. Talking and texting etc..... That relationship ended a year and a half ago. She regrets that now but just part of the process I guess. Normal behavoir I think according to the BB and some experience I've heard from others. I guess that's why they say no relationships in the 1st year unless your already in one. I can now see why that makes sense. ________ My wife and I have decided to try and make this work. The suggestions here have been very helpful. I've identified some things I need to do and like wise for her. Counseling I also think would be a good idea.
I've recognized through this that I was able to practice the principles in all my affairs only in the AA environment. Not so well outside in the general population. The problem is I didn't even recognize it....... I really appreciate the clarity God has given me. I now have awareness, acceptance and I'm willing to take action.
Thanks for sharing all this Mike. I wish you and your wife the best!
I relate to having the sobriety part of the program down pretty good (knock on wood) but struggling some with what the heck makes me happy and serene....I know the steps are the answer...but I just have to keep learning and having more life expriences.
I had no idea that when I removed alcohol from the picture, I was going to need to learn to do EVERYTHING all over again in a new way...this included romantic relationships. I guess this is the frontier of emotional sobriety. Not always fun, but well worth the effort.
Mark
-- Edited by pinkchip on Thursday 10th of February 2011 09:59:08 AM
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
What the hell is going on with me? I know I'm rigid and practice the program as closely as possible. Maybe to a fault. Have I been so rigid with working my program that some how it's become all about meand anything in path to what I think is uncomfortable/confrontational pushed away? Have I thought I've been using intellect over emotions but really used avoidance over emotions?
Hey Mike, Its all about growing, and growing is painful. I been through the same stuff and my marriage and family didn't survive because of MY ridged program. My program is selfish and self centerd and full of fear. Thatis the ROOT of the problem.........Our program is altruistic, selfless and other centered, our code is love and tolerance.. and the ONLY way I can get from one to the other is inventory and amends process. A 4th & 5th with the readings of step 3 in mind ( step 3 from the big book ). When you get to the place in step 4 where it say's " this was our course" this is the place where I realise ( make it real ) what it was like to be in other peoples shoes. some times " what it was like to be in a relationship with me.. It really helps me to get to the root of the defects that I gonna look at in the next column. Any way I hope things turn around for you, Trust the process.
If growing up were easy, I would have done it the first time.
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Since it cost a lot to win, and even more to loose, you and me gotta spend some time just wondering what to choose.
In my first year, my wife began to treat me differently. She clearly didn't believe I was an alcoholic before I went to AA. When I did get sober, it's not so much that she didn't think I really was one, as much as kicking herself for marrying an alcoholic (again), and resentment against me just for being one. Her mother dying of alcoholism when I was merely 5-6 months sober didn't help matters one bit. I used to say in meetings that if I came home with a 12-pack and said hey honey, good news - I'm not an alcoholic after all - that my marriage relationship would have gotten better. And that may have been true in the short term, but eventually the disease would have progressed and I would have done what alcohlics do to ruin whatever was left of the relationship.
The real problem was, as my sponsor so bluntly put it, she just didn't like me anymore.
When I was about a year and a half sober, we came very close to separating. I really thought she'd jump on the mere suggestion and run with it, but instead she became very upset. I don't know what was going on in her head, but I felt I had really hurt her badly. We actually did see a counselor once because we still loved each other, and both felt we had made a big mistake. I took all the blame, and went back to her and said this is all a mistake. I want to stay with you. It really did fix things up and we had several more good years and good times. In that time the kids finished growing up and mostly moving out. I was looking forward to having her to myself - and unbeknownst to me, she was dreading it... LOL.
I don't regret staying those extra years - had we split back then, I would forever have doubts about it. By the time we did split, there was no doubt in my mind, and no pain for her. She had split months earlier, and was going through the motions. When I said hey, I know you're gone, she didn't get emotional - she said "Oh, ok" and packed her bags. It was really strange. She was already gone, but it was fresh for me. No opportunity for counseling at that point. I did whatever was necessary, physically and financially, to get her out the door and on her way as quickly as possible. There was no talk, ever, of trying to work it out. That made it easier from a logistical and practical standpoint, but no less painful. I don't believe that her own experience was painless, but she sure concealed it well if she had the slightest doubt or remorse. As she does to this day. I have little to do with her, although she lives across town and sees the kids regularly. I have probably not seen her in person in over 5 years - my current wife has never met her. It seems to work out best that way - we just don't have anything to talk about.
