It just doesn't Work

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

It just doesn't Work

Klaatu · Senior Member

For my own simplification I need to remember that if the alcoholic is still drinking it or not, I'm working with him for MY benefit, with the hope that it will help him as well. Like Bill said to Dr. Bob in their first meeting, I'm not here to get you sober, I'm here to help me stay sober. I work with and see people every day who don't get or stay sober. If I was banking on their sobriety to stay sober myself, I would be in very serious danger. If I based the success of the program on their sobriety, then I would also be the one saying that it doesn't work. It works for me, If I work it for me!

K.....

Rainspa · Senior Member

I think I've voiced my opinion before.

It really is heartbreaking to hear people explain the "program" they have followed.

Meetings & "sharing" what was wrong with my week. They get drunk. Sooner or later most of them get drunk.

I've started to get the strange feeling in meetings that we are almost ashamed or frightened or it is too harsh or gauche to say the steps ARE the program.

That's what we've got; thats what I can give to you.

barisax · Senior Member

I think if I had been forced to go to only speaker meetings and told to just shut up, I probably would not have stayed around. Yes, the most important thing I heard in AA was keep coming back. By sharing early on and hearing - and laughing at my own BS, and being laughed at, made me feel I belonged.

I'm sorry if I wasn't a bad enough alcoholic for the OJ and rum detox, nor did I go through a hospital detox. I just walked in, and I liked what I saw, and I stayed and stayed sober.

I can't say what it's like for the newcomer today. I don't have that point of view. Where I come from, AA is still somewhat conservative at least compared to, say, west coast USA. I don't know if I have any business wishing it were this way or that, when it saved my life just the way it was, and the way it is. There are certainly times when I need an ass kicking, and those times are not "all of the time". I'd get mighty tired of it. There are professional ass kickers in AA, and I know how to find them when I require their services.

I would like to think it's still possible today for someone in my condition - perhaps not at a physical bottom, but at a spiritual bottom, to walk through the doors of AA and stay sober. Maybe that person will be able to relate to me, and maybe I can help them. I probably can't do much for the guy who is in DTs, but if somebody like me walks in the door, the ass kickers might not be able to do much for him either.

I too get annoyed with "easier softer AA" or groups that seem to coddle chronic relapsers. I choose not to participate in the coddling, and someone who has been "around AA" for 20 years but presently has 6 days sober probably doesn't have anything I want. But I'm not going to kick his ass - it's just not me. I've generally found that being myself, the rare person who can relate to my own form of strangeness will find me, and maybe I can share something with them that will help them. If I'm being something I'm not, like acting like an asskicker or a coddler, when I know I can't keep it up, I'm going to come off as a phony and most alcoholics can smell phony a long way off. AA has all types, and that's with good reason. If I am not being true to myself FIRST, I am of no use to the newcomer, and I'm going to have trouble stomaching myself too.

Barisax

ferrisdp · Senior Member

I agree 100% that the steps ARE the program and, on the rare occasions that I have something to share, I ALWAYS share that the steps have been critical to my sobriety.

I think that meetings really exist for the newcomers -- we go to help the newcomers who are willing or even just curious, offer our ESH and show them a better life is possible if you work the program ie., the steps.

I go to a beginners meeting on Monday nights that is a place where people say what's on their mind. But I know what it is and I accept it. But everyone with time there, to a person, will tell you that the steps are critical and we make sure this is communicated to any new faces in the room.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:

I think if I had been forced to go to only speaker meetings and told to just shut up, I probably would not have stayed around. Yes, the most important thing I heard in AA was keep coming back. By sharing early on and hearing - and laughing at my own BS, and being laughed at, made me feel I belonged.

I'm sorry if I wasn't a bad enough alcoholic for the OJ and rum detox, nor did I go through a hospital detox. I just walked in, and I liked what I saw, and I stayed and stayed sober.

I can't say what it's like for the newcomer today. I don't have that point of view. Where I come from, AA is still somewhat conservative at least compared to, say, west coast USA. I don't know if I have any business wishing it were this way or that, when it saved my life just the way it was, and the way it is. There are certainly times when I need an ass kicking, and those times are not "all of the time". I'd get mighty tired of it. There are professional ass kickers in AA, and I know how to find them when I require their services.

I would like to think it's still possible today for someone in my condition - perhaps not at a physical bottom, but at a spiritual bottom, to walk through the doors of AA and stay sober. Maybe that person will be able to relate to me, and maybe I can help them. I probably can't do much for the guy who is in DTs, but if somebody like me walks in the door, the ass kickers might not be able to do much for him either.

I too get annoyed with "easier softer AA" or groups that seem to coddle chronic relapsers. I choose not to participate in the coddling, and someone who has been "around AA" for 20 years but presently has 6 days sober probably doesn't have anything I want. But I'm not going to kick his ass - it's just not me. I've generally found that being myself, the rare person who can relate to my own form of strangeness will find me, and maybe I can share something with them that will help them. If I'm being something I'm not, like acting like an asskicker or a coddler, when I know I can't keep it up, I'm going to come off as a phony and most alcoholics can smell phony a long way off. AA has all types, and that's with good reason. If I am not being true to myself FIRST, I am of no use to the newcomer, and I'm going to have trouble stomaching myself too.

Barisax

I'm not sure where you get "ass kicking" from "working the steps is important", and frankly "West Coast Sobriety" is a little bit to the "right" of Attila The Hun, Have you ever heard of The Pacific Group? AA is Hardcore on The West Coast for the most part.

This is just a statement and thoughts about and pertaining to:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path

ie worked the steps

If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it then you are ready to take certain steps.

as opposed to:

My Basic Text does not read, Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of dont drink and go to meetings

The personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism as the result of the steps, not the result of meeting attendance, one of the steps being step 12, which is where we carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic.

If we don't have the same experience, we aren't going to be of the same opinion, Buddha says people with strong opinions just run around and bother people, and we are all familiar with this type, but we are all familiar with other types as well, the old guys that have sponsored many many people also seem to have certain personality traits in common, a crusty exterior being one of them, from listening to 1000's upon 1000's of newcomer lies and delusions, after awhile they just get blunt, and get down to business, someone who doesn't have that experience won't necessarily have the same character traits.

Part, a large part of that personality change is the break down of denial as the result of Socratic questioning that takes place in the steps, that is 90% of early sobriety is breaking those delusions by working the steps.

So I see these few paragraphs as laying the responsibility of good and informed sponsorship on US, the old timers, NOT looking for someone to "kick butt" on, but to pass on what was so freely passed on to us. That is who I see this message aimed at, those of us with time and experience to pass on what we were given, that the newcomer isn't responsible for ANY state that AA might be in, but the apathetic and uninvolved old-timer that doesn't help newcomers, who hasn't bothered to sponsor others, who hasn't taken the time to become informed about our history and our traditions, and why they are important, who don't chair meetings, who participate in their own recovery and don't just "get their hot dog and go home", and who don't help others because they are too busy living life -living the life that AA itself made possible-

But just as those of us that are sober can't really describe what it's like to be sober to someone who is still drinking, not in a way they can understand it since they are still trapped in their delusional state, I can't explain the importance of sponsorship to those that have never taken the time to sponsor others, to pass on what was so freely given them, and the thing is, that is where 90% of the Program is internalized, that is when the program drops from the head to the heart, so I can't describe that experience to someone who doesn't have it any more then I could imagine what it is like to be a woman, I just don't have that experience, so it's not about "ass kicking" it's about walking side by side with a new man as he enters the sunlight of the spirit, I can't describe that experience to someone who hasn't experienced it or explain why it is important to my OWN recovery

So if AA is in any "specific state" the responsibility lays in the apathy of it's own old timers, the failure to educate the newcomers about what we do, why we do it, and why it is important, thankfully, out here on the "left coast" we DO take AA seriously, and we do educate ourselves about AA, and we do sponsor others, and we do take service commitments, we make sure there is an AA for newcomers to find, one with a primary purpose, to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic, not to whine about my day or week, but to get out of my head and selfish, self centered nature by helping others freely

Life will take on new meaning. To watch people recover, to see them help others, to watch loneliness vanish, to see a fellowship grow up about you, to have a host of friends this is an experience you must not miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Frequent contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives.

Responsibility Declaration"I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of AA always to be there. And for that: I am responsible.

Rainspa · Senior Member

Other than the program of AA, what do we have to offer that anybody else doesn't?

Fellowship, sympathy, friendship? Relating to someone, sharing your story, being kind?

These are worthy things. BUT THEY WON"T GET YOU, OR KEEP YOU, SOBER.

Is it really to the point that working the 12 steps is so alien to members of AA that telling a newcomer that the 12 steps ARE the program = ass kicking?

That going to a big book or step study = being told to shut up

FYI, meetings are a recomended part of AA, but not required. The 12 steps are required.
(Reference See Dr. Bob & the Good Old Timers)

The people in meetings? Some are AA, some are killing time in spiritual limbo, and slowly but surely slouching twards their next drink and killing themselves.

I don't see why I should lie to them, and tell them it will be OK if they "just go to meetings" and "share their feelings". It won't be OK. This is a program of rigorous honesty. That is the receipt for sliding out the door, never to be seen again.

Ever wonder how many funerals you haven't gone to because the person slid in and out of the rooms so quietly? People that sounded good, and then just disappeared?

The poor folks got conned into thinking they were going to be OK.
It's a lie.

Really, who is being served by this myth? Certainly not the alcoholic.

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Good topic, good sharing, thanks.

I sure do wish I knew what the answer was to this re-occuring problem of : AA doesn't work, Ive tried it.

Hmmm .. okay, well it has worked since the late 1930's or so , and is still working today for alcoholics all over the world.

Maybe, just maybe if more alcoholics were afraid they would die if they picked up another drink, the program would work for them. Just exactly the way it works for me, cuz' Im here to tell ya that I have a VERY healthy fear of drinking today and until that fear made itself present for me, I could not stay sober , even tho I KNEW there were ppl in those meetings that it did work for.

I dont get the opportunity to go on many 12 step calls. There are very few 'wet' drunks in my area and they are rarely seen at a meeting.
However, I did get a call about a month or so ago from a gal who asked me to come over to her house cuz she had another gal there who was drunk and needed help. I hesitated when I found out she was drunk. But, nonetheless .. away I went with BB in hand. There were 3 of us who sat and talked to this gal for approx 2 hours. Finally, I decided that it really was usless to try and talk to a drunk and I came home.
Ya know, the circus ain't over until the clown has finished his act. And this particular gal has been in and out of the AA meetings, not to mention approx 4 treatment centers in the last 2 yrs or so, not to mention numerous suicide rides in an ambulance to the ER, and she is STILL drinking!! ugh.
Myself and another gal tried to sponsor this particular gal over the past 2 yrs or so, and she had dry spells of near 2 wks at a time, then she'd be drunk again. She called me many times already drunk and by that time, there's really nothing I can do, except pray for her which i have been told by my own sponsor is the best thing I can do for a still yet, drunk, sick and suffering new person. To this day, I do now know where this gal is.

I honestly believe with all my heart that if more AA meetings were more big book oriented and talked more about the Power of God and what He will do for us instead of this ... " Oh I lost my job today, or Im getting a divorce, or the kids drove me crazy today, or blah blah blah ... " We just might get thru to new ppl just how serious this sickness of alcoholism really is.

If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps. I have found in my 6 short years sober , that there really aren't alot of new ppl willing to go to any length.
Is this sad, yes. Is this my fault? yes, to a degree ... it is my responsibility as a recovered alcoholic to carry the REAL message and not tell new ppl that all ya gotta do is go to meetings and dont drink in between. There is much work to be done, and it has been my experience that even tho I didnt want to do some of this work, it has paid off in ways that I never, ever dreamed it could. I can only share this with others ... I dont have the power to get or keep anyone sober. Thats Gods job!!

barisax · Senior Member

I'm sorry, I just don't have a response to any of this. I shared my personal experience with AA. Maybe it doesn't fit with the views being espoused, or perhaps it's just being misinterpreted. My sobriety is a reality - since I can't prove it, you'll have to just take my word for it. Or not.

Barisax

TwelveSteps · Senior Member

I just had to comment on "coddling" the chronic relapsers. I relapsed many, many times at first. It took me all of those relapses to understand myself and my triggers well enough to finally "get it" and stay sober. If it hadn't been for the people who "coddled" me by giving me hugs, support, encouragement and by welcoming me back (my first sponsor, incidentally, was not one of these, which is why I changed sponsors) I probably would have given up long before that magic turning point.

Now when someone relapses and comes back, I just make sure an express how glad I am that they are back and that I hope they keep coming back and working the steps. I don't see the point in beating them up when I know (from personal experience) that they are already beating themselves up more than I ever could.

GG

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

In the very early days, the drunk who wanted help was required to cough up $50.00 for a week hospital stay, for both detox (if needed), and to keep the person in a safe environment.

Sober members and Dr. Bob would visit the hospital daily and share ESH, these trips actually served as the "meetings", as there where very few formal meetings.

Members is Akron and Cleveland (where I got sober) are still are encouraged and routinely visit the those in the hospital wards.

After a article about AA in the Cleveland Newspaper broke, there where about 100 people sober and they where getting about 200 calls per day. At this point they needed to be very selective about who got help, spending time with someone not serious could mean that someone else who really wants help would die.

I was always taught to ask..what are you willing to do to stay sober?? (and I still ask this to new sponcee's). If they are willing to go to any lengths and prove it via action, then of course work with them.

If a wet drunk, won't listen, go to detox or put down the bottle then our time is better spent elsewhere.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

This whole topic is not that complex, the is only one step in the BBook that has a total chapter devoted to it, step 12 Working With Others.

Everything is explained pretty well, I have to remind myself to re-read it from time to time as it seems topics from this chapter are rarely discussed are the meetings I attend.

Hope this can help.

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Wow...thread almost feels like a personalities before principles thingy. Reading
this after experiencing the program and thousands of it's members over a long
time causes me to smile. First time I got to AA the egos helped me leave.
Second time I got to AA I was informed that there were groups of "AA Nazis" all
over the place looking for recruits and I found some of those guys..."You should
be in AA" "If you don't have a Big Book you don't have the blueprint".   No howdy
how are you and who are you...just didn't care and so they didn't know they were
trying to bend the ear of a person with ADD and ODD...Attention deficit disorder
I have a short attention span and it gets shorter when someone gets in my face
without a formal respectful introduction.   ODD is Oppositional Defiant Disorder
meaning when some one tries to bend me and I'm not appreciating it I get
oppositional and defiance takes the form of physical acting out. By the way
I am also alcoholic and a human being with a life threatening incurable disease.
I was born with it. I am also a child of God yet none of the AA group from the
area I came into recovery in had the time for that information...for me they were
playing god...ironic. Drunks playing god trying to sell the idea that they had
the only avenue that led to a spiritual awakening.

I was 9 years sober...alcohol free and daily worked the steps including 12 stepping a wet one who thanked AA for sending me to his door and I wasn't
yet in AA.   Yes the director of Central Office encouraged me to do it because
he said "What made you think that only an alcoholic can get another alcoholic
sober?" I didn't have the answer for that but I had the program experience and
the director and the DIRECTOR my Higher Power to get me there and sit with
this drunk drunk and then finally leave after telling him I'd be a part of his
sobriety but not a part of his disease. Actually he was looking for someone to
got transport him to the nearest liquor store and get him a bottle...the pint in
his boot was empty. I know how to cheat and manipulate and don't practice
that anymore.    Anyhow when I got into AA for real I got in the same way I
drank, in the corner, in the dark, and wanting to slip out the back. Every drunk
in the room knew me and so did their familys. To some I was friend and the
sponsee of their Al-Anon family member and to others their counselor but I was
there. I had been just told that if for any reason I took another drink the chance
were clinically that I would not live thru it. Drinking to toxic shock isn't scary for
me...it was always kinda pleasant...quiet and smooth and I was convinced that
I was something other than alcoholic.

Bill gives credit to the Al-Anon Family Groups that direct off shoot of AA which
was founded by Lois, his wife and Anne the wife of Bob. He said that he doubted
that AA would have ever survived had it not been for the Al-Anon Family Groups.
God directed me to the door of AA in a cunning and very powerful way from out
side of the program yet thru the same 12 steps, traditions, and more of Al-Anon.
I was more than just dry...I was sober and I was sitting in an AA meeting for the
first real time because of a clinical assessment that told me if I entered relapse
I'd never find gems like MIP or other sources of recovery. I don't fear relapse
I hate the mind and emotional and spiritual insanity that comes attached.

Like a growing number of recovery members who are called "doubles" or hold
membership in both Al-Anon and AA I have additional experience.  Some of
my AA fellows have told me "I want what you have" and they are not talking
about sobriety as much as they are talking about serenity...peace of soul. They
have not been able to find it in AA and I tell them if you haven't found it here
chances are you might not find it. I didn't from the start it was everything but
serene and I opposed it. HP had the plan and helped me exercise it. It was
"that other program where they whine about their alcoholic" that introduced me
to my HP and from there I could be introduced to AA. Last wet twelve step I
did has no been sober over 6 months after a short relapse and two rehab
sessions. He only got a 12th from me he's got the rest from his own sponsor
and the local groups has co-founded a meeting and is doing service. I've
yet to hear him say the word God and then I don't hang with him constantly.

Alcoholics Anonymous like the Al-Anon Family Groups works wonderfully and
as suggested when it is worked as suggested and accompanied by compassion,
empathy and love. I would rather attract a man into recovery than try to promote
the program. I've been told that doesn't work. I read the literature; all of it
and don't leave anything out when I do. I read as Bill sees it and as Lois
Remembers. It's good to have the whole story and not just what someone is
trying to convince me of maybe for self validation.

I love this thread...it keeps recovery real for me.   Mahalo.

I hang with relapsers.

-- Edited by Jerry F on Tuesday 23rd of November 2010 01:09:46 AM

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

I really don't understand where this changed into a conversation where talking about the steps being important translated into "ass kicking newcomers" or "coddling relapsers" or telling newcomers to STFU

Seems to be a lot of projecting going on

The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to quit drinking, when I saw some AAers when I was drunk after being sober they called me over and gave me a hug and told me they loved me because I was me, not because I had been sober, and that I was always welcome to come back, but they would love me regardless

I have always passed that message on to people I see relapse, most have come back to me later and thanked me profusely

This is different then co-signing someone's bullshit, love and support is different then lying to someone and blowing your own credibility

When I was in school to learn about patient care in the field doing my Paramedic ride-along time, the first thing they taught me was ALWAYS tell the patient the truth in order to keep your credibility with the patient, I literally saved many many lives with this principal, by telling patients with broken backs, punctured lungs, heart attack victims the truth, "No, everything is NOT OK right now, but if you listen to me and we work together, we may be able to save your life, but I am going to need your help" before I strapped them to me and my partners body and we repelled them vertically up a 300' foot cliff.

Lying to them would have been doing them a disservice, I would have lost credibility, thus patient cooperation, and I can't count how many times I heard "I was sure I was dead until the man with the blue baseball cap got there, he saved my life"

heli 1.jpg

why? because I told them the truth, which was "If you do what I say, what has worked before, we have a chance to save your life" AA isn't that much different

heli 2.jpg

There seem to be some truths about AA I feel are self evident, but not everyone else feels that way

1. I don't co-sign anyone else's bullshit, newcomer or old timer, and don't really keep people in my life that co-sign mine, to me they aren't true friends (we always ask first, "do you want my opinion?" because sometimes a good whinge is called for)

2. A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous Primary Purpose is to carry it's message to the still suffering alcoholic, not listen to the still suffering alcoholic hold the entire room hostage whinging about their day, that is why we have sponsors and a support group, the venue of a meeting is to pass the message of Alcoholics Anonymous encapsulated in "How It Works"

The steps work

One alcoholic talking to another works

Love and Service works

barisax · Senior Member

LinBaba wrote:

I really don't understand where this changed into a conversation where talking about the steps being important translated into "ass kicking newcomers" or "coddling relapsers" or telling newcomers to STFU

What I said about those things is that I don't do them. I think there are times when it's appropriate. There are times when I needed my ass kicked, times when I needed to be coddled, and times when I needed to STFU. My experience there hasn't been perfect, but it has been good enough. My impression at my first meeting was that I was given many voices to hear, to sort out a common thread and the single common thread was keep coming back, that's the one that stuck first and I have to admit, if I hadn't kept coming back I would not have gotten the steps or anything else. I accept the need and value for the ass kicking, etc - it's just not something I deliver well. I'm not good at ass kicking OR coddling, it's just not my style, nor am I particularly good at STFU or telling someone else to.

The other thing I experienced at my first meeting was that I wanted what these people had.

The traditions were read at my first meeting, along with the steps, and they caught my attention immediately because they were so different from any previous organization I was familiar with.

The 11th Tradition: ElevenOur public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

While this tradition explicity applies to media, it implicitly applies, IMO, to how we "sell" the program to the newcomer, who is already in the door. The attraction to me was in the people, the honesty, people who were sober and genuinely interested in helping me - not for monetary gain, but because they said it helped them stay sober themselves. That was far more attractive to me than some of the in-your-face stuff I experienced early on, as Jerry talked about. I didn't really have a big problem with it, I saw right away that the program had all kinds, and that certainly there was room for my kind.

Barisax

-- Edited by barisax on Tuesday 23rd of November 2010 02:38:40 AM

barisax · Senior Member

Rob84 wrote:

Everything is explained pretty well, I have to remind myself to re-read it from time to time as it seems topics from this chapter are rarely discussed are the meetings I attend.

At my first meeting, I was 12-stepped very much like the book. In fact when I read that chapter, I was astonished how well it mirrored my experience. I think even at the time though, I was somewhat unusual in that I was a cold walk-in. I hadn't been to treatment, to detox, to court, to the hospital, to jail. Nobody told me to go to AA. In spite of what I thought I knew about alcoholism and AA, I really knew nothing about either. I thought I was a "potential alcoholic" when I walked in, because I had not done the hospital/jail/divorce/job loss routine. Yet. I became convinced that I already was one, which I viewed as a good thing because it meant I was where I belonged. Nobody said I was a lightweight because I had never gotten my face busted in a bar fight, or "come back in 10 years" because I wasn't crawling in from the gutter.

These days thanks to the internet as much as anything, a walk-in such as myself might show up with a lot more preconceived notions than I had. I know I don't do much in the way of new things without first googling, wiki-ing, or whatever. I'm grateful that I didn't, that I walked in cold. People who remember me walking in cold tell me to this day that they didn't think I'd stay because I "didn't think I was that bad" and because I "looked like I was scared of my own shadow". The latter was a bit of a surprise but looking back, it's dead on. That was my bottom. And I realized I did a mini step 1, 2, and 3 just to get in the door.

I don't know what else to say. Trying to keep it to my own experience, and not tell anybody how to work the program. My experience is all I have.

Barisax

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

My experience is similiar to Rob's.

My Sponsor got sober in Cleveland and when I go to her with questions or concerns about a new person or a sponsee, she inevitably directs me to chapter 7 and suggests that I read that chapter often so that it is fresh in my mind.

She also told me to ask new ppl right from the get-go, " What are you willing to do to stay sober"?

I dont waste time with ppl who aren't willing to do the work .. I pray for them and I move on praying all the while that God put someone in my path to work with.

And true Barisax .. all we really have is our own experience. Thanks for sharing yours here , it is appreciated and needed from this X drunk.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:

LinBaba wrote:

I really don't understand where this changed into a conversation where talking about the steps being important translated into "ass kicking newcomers" or "coddling relapsers" or telling newcomers to STFU

What I said about those things is that I don't do them. I think there are times when it's appropriate. There are times when I needed my ass kicked, times when I needed to be coddled, and times when I needed to STFU. My experience there hasn't been perfect, but it has been good enough. My impression at my first meeting was that I was given many voices to hear, to sort out a common thread and the single common thread was keep coming back, that's the one that stuck first and I have to admit, if I hadn't kept coming back I would not have gotten the steps or anything else. I accept the need and value for the ass kicking, etc - it's just not something I deliver well. I'm not good at ass kicking OR coddling, it's just not my style, nor am I particularly good at STFU or telling someone else to.

The other thing I experienced at my first meeting was that I wanted what these people had.

The traditions were read at my first meeting, along with the steps, and they caught my attention immediately because they were so different from any previous organization I was familiar with.

The 11th Tradition: ElevenOur public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

While this tradition explicity applies to media, it implicitly applies, IMO, to how we "sell" the program to the newcomer, who is already in the door. The attraction to me was in the people, the honesty, people who were sober and genuinely interested in helping me - not for monetary gain, but because they said it helped them stay sober themselves. That was far more attractive to me than some of the in-your-face stuff I experienced early on, as Jerry talked about. I didn't really have a big problem with it, I saw right away that the program had all kinds, and that certainly there was room for my kind.

Barisax

-- Edited by barisax on Tuesday 23rd of November 2010 02:38:40 AM

I agree with this entirely and frankly it matches my experience as well

thanks for taking the time Bari

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:

Rob84 wrote:

Everything is explained pretty well, I have to remind myself to re-read it from time to time as it seems topics from this chapter are rarely discussed are the meetings I attend.

At my first meeting, I was 12-stepped very much like the book. In fact when I read that chapter, I was astonished how well it mirrored my experience. I think even at the time though, I was somewhat unusual in that I was a cold walk-in. I hadn't been to treatment, to detox, to court, to the hospital, to jail. Nobody told me to go to AA. In spite of what I thought I knew about alcoholism and AA, I really knew nothing about either. I thought I was a "potential alcoholic" when I walked in, because I had not done the hospital/jail/divorce/job loss routine. Yet. I became convinced that I already was one, which I viewed as a good thing because it meant I was where I belonged. Nobody said I was a lightweight because I had never gotten my face busted in a bar fight, or "come back in 10 years" because I wasn't crawling in from the gutter.

These days thanks to the internet as much as anything, a walk-in such as myself might show up with a lot more preconceived notions than I had. I know I don't do much in the way of new things without first googling, wiki-ing, or whatever. I'm grateful that I didn't, that I walked in cold. People who remember me walking in cold tell me to this day that they didn't think I'd stay because I "didn't think I was that bad" and because I "looked like I was scared of my own shadow". The latter was a bit of a surprise but looking back, it's dead on. That was my bottom. And I realized I did a mini step 1, 2, and 3 just to get in the door.

I don't know what else to say. Trying to keep it to my own experience, and not tell anybody how to work the program. My experience is all I have.

Barisax

I went to a Pych., and they gave me the # to call AA and told me that will be $50.00

So I basically came in cold and knew nothing also, best $50.00 I ever spent.

Rob84 · MIP Old Timer

LinBaba wrote:

I really don't understand where this changed into a conversation where talking about the steps being important translated into "ass kicking newcomers" or "coddling relapsers" or telling newcomers to STFU

Seems to be a lot of projecting going on

The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to quit drinking, when I saw some AAers when I was drunk after being sober they called me over and gave me a hug and told me they loved me because I was me, not because I had been sober, and that I was always welcome to come back, but they would love me regardless

I have always passed that message on to people I see relapse, most have come back to me later and thanked me profusely

This is different then co-signing someone's bullshit, love and support is different then lying to someone and blowing your own credibility

When I was in school to learn about patient care in the field doing my Paramedic ride-along time, the first thing they taught me was ALWAYS tell the patient the truth in order to keep your credibility with the patient, I literally saved many many lives with this principal, by telling patients with broken backs, punctured lungs, heart attack victims the truth, "No, everything is NOT OK right now, but if you listen to me and we work together, we may be able to save your life, but I am going to need your help" before I strapped them to me and my partners body and we repelled them vertically up a 300' foot cliff.

Lying to them would have been doing them a disservice, I would have lost credibility, thus patient cooperation, and I can't count how many times I heard "I was sure I was dead until the man with the blue baseball cap got there, he saved my life"

why? because I told them the truth, which was "If you do what I say, what has worked before, we have a chance to save your life" AA isn't that much different

There seem to be some truths about AA I feel are self evident, but not everyone else feels that way

1. I don't co-sign anyone else's bullshit, newcomer or old timer, and don't really keep people in my life that co-sign mine, to me they aren't true friends (we always ask first, "do you want my opinion?" because sometimes a good whinge is called for)

2. A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous Primary Purpose is to carry it's message to the still suffering alcoholic, not listen to the still suffering alcoholic hold the entire room hostage whinging about their day, that is why we have sponsors and a support group, the venue of a meeting is to pass the message of Alcoholics Anonymous encapsulated in "How It Works"

The steps work

One alcoholic talking to another works

Love and Service works

Thanks for posting the pictures and presenting the interesting topics, I has to take a special person to do the Paramedic thing.

attilio · Veteran Member

this is agreat thread.I am fortunate to have a sponsor that constantly sends me back to the steps.I agree with Lin when he says that the most important message is keep coming back thats what did it for me .U see ive been in AA since 1988 gone to detox came out in an huge pink cloud that lasted 9 years but ooops forgot to work the steps still whent to meetings shaking hands talking greeting but no steps.....so what happen next is quite predictable i realapsed .long story short ive been back 1 year go to meetings shake hands take the chair and...........got a sponsor who as worked the steps and still does not listening to my bs and taking the drama out of my head and always sending me back to whatever step my discussion brings. I love this board and u guys are true to your beliefs thats what i want for me too.................great day to all love ya....................Attilio

barisax · Senior Member

Rob84 wrote:

I went to a Pych., and they gave me the # to call AA and told me that will be $50.00

Well at least he was honest and only took the first 50! I saw a psych when I was a teenager. He took the $50 from my parents week after week. Of course I didn't know I was an alcoholic then since I had yet to take my first drink. Once I started drinking I didn't need the psych anymore....

Barisax

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

What's important in AA? Steps vs. Meetings. How about both?

Ideally, there should be a balance between newcomers that blab about their problems with no solution and then some oldtimers that share about solutions and not problems because they already know the answers to the problems.

I would leave if there was not this dynamic going on in AA. YES - I do sometimes get tired of hearing brand newcomers and chronic relapsers talking about the same stupid junk week after week instead of just listening, focusing on the steps, and actually doing work and making changes. BUT - I also get tired of false prophet old timers that seem to think they know everything when really they don't and they just like to preach. It's a fine line.

Similarly, if meetings only talked about the power of God without talking about some of life's problems....that would be church. I can go to church if I want church. However, I do understand that talking about problems with no spiritual references or steps would be a typical therapy group and I could get that from...um Group therapy. Fine line there too.

Also, everybody knows "Don't drink and go to meetings" is not going to cut it in the long run. However, the program is full of sayings that are counterintuitive to each other. That particular one is helpful to people who are new to the program, are over complicating things and who get all hung up on the steps to the point they are about to have their head blow up. Those folks need to chill out, not drink, and go to meetings (also stay on steps 1 through 3 until their brain starts working better).

What I think is great about AA is that it is multimodal. One person can turn into a born again Christian and hardly ever go to meetings and stay sober. Another can be super active in meetings and service but not really believe in a traditional God and they stay sober too. The only person that is destined to get drunk is the person that does nothing.

We could all sit around for days arguing over what exactly is AA and how does it work. Even though there is a chapter on "How it works", it won't ever be fully explained because something so life altering and spiritual will have different meanings for different people. So...what matters is that it does work. It works when you want it to work and stop living in denial and tricking yourself into going back out again. When a person is really ready to get sober, they will go to meetings, get a sponsor, do the steps...all of it. If they want good insurance on staying sober, they will keep doing all of it too.

barisax · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:

Similarly, if meetings only talked about the power of God without talking about some of life's problems....that would be church. I can go to church if I want church. However, I do understand that talking about problems with no spiritual references or steps would be a typical therapy group and I could get that from...um Group therapy. Fine line there too.

I've done both... and you pretty much nailed it. I love AA because people can bitch about their problems all they want, and I love it because we have a solution and people can talk about gratitude all they want.

Someone I know who is very involved in church and religion got involved in AA and Alanon. He never got a sponsor, because he was holding out for a sponsor who was of the same religious beliefs and he intended to work the steps in a way that followed that religion. Well and good, but he wasn't really making headway. He was taken aback when I suggested he should find an athiest for a sponsor. Why, he asked. So you'll talk about the program and the steps, and not church. I don't know if he has a sponsor or not, but he's sober and still goes to church and still goes to meetings.

I've seen churches shun people for the sin of divorce. Or even unemployment. My wife's church is full of some of the nicest people I've ever met - they are geniunely nice folks. But when she told them she lost her job (company went out of business), they kept their distance. Probably not consciously, but it was almost as if it was contagious. When my brother went though his divorce some years ago, his church was of no help. They seemed willing to counsel a bad marriage forever but not to accept the end of it, and the single person it left behind.

We welcome all this stuff in AA. I need to hear it all, as you said - I need to hear the whining and the laughter, the ballbusting big book thumpers, the wise old timers, those that just say this too shall pass. I need to see them all back for another meeting because they know it works.

Maybe don't drink and come to meetings doesn't keep you sober. But if I drank and didn't go to meetings, I don't think I'd be sober today. It can keep you sober until you're ready to do more - whenever that is.

I don't talk a lot about my step experience other than when a step is a topic, or if I'm the main speaker which isn't too often. Maybe I should do a little run through here. It's always good for me and the story like all stories comes out a little different each time, and I learn more from sharing it. Maybe some time over this Thanksgiving weekend I can get it done and post it.

Barisax

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Nobody said Meetings weren't important, it's not an "either or" topic, it's a "steps are important so they need to be talked about IN meetings so newcomers know where the solution lies and it's the responsibility of those people with "time" that have worked the steps to pass that on to new people that don't know

That's all this thread was meant to be about, not horse whipping relapsers and newcomers down main street or who's God can kick who's God butt or even bringing up the ultra tedious "meetings vs steps" debate that was a dead horse years ago

I'ts OK to say working the steps is important on AA site

barisax · Senior Member

LinBaba wrote:
That's all this thread was meant to be about, not horse whipping relapsers and newcomers down main street or who's God can kick who's God butt or even bringing up the ultra tedious "meetings vs steps" debate that was a dead horse years ago

Ok, then let's get back to your second reply. You said:

"My Basic Text does not read, Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of dont drink and go to meetings"

Maybe your text doesn't say that, but it describes my experience pretty well. I had a spiritual awakening from not drinking and going to meetings. There, I said it. Did I work the steps? Yes. But I didn't effectively get past 3 until I had already had the spiritual awakening. So I'll just leave it at that. My way isn't for everybody. I didn't choose it or plan it, that's just how it turned out. So it's not conjecture or philosophy or even opinion really - it's just experience. And there's no great reason for anyone reading this to even believe me, nor is it particularly important that they do. Nor is it important for newcomers to pay any attention to me, because the way I did it is not the way they're going to do it. Their experience will be different.

Sorry about the damn underlining, I can't turn it off.

Barisax

Rainspa · Senior Member

pinkchip wrote:

Also, everybody knows "Don't drink and go to meetings" is not going to cut it in the long run.

Well.....then I'm not everybody. I got to the program after not drinking for a couple of weeks. I went to a Sunday breakfast meeting where they told me to "keep coming back" and "don't drink between meetings".

So I did.

I didn't drink, and I showed up every Sunday and listened to this woman with a spectacularly horrible life (bank robberies, beastiality, you name it, she had it).
I was really happy that my life didn't suck THAT bad.

They gave me a book with the names and numbers of members and told me to call.

So I did.

AA - "Are you ok?"
Rain -"Yeah, but it's kind of hard to not drink."
AA - "Keep coming back"
Rain - "OK"

After 3 1/2 months, someone asked what meeting I went to.

Rain - (Huh?) "This one" (duh. Everything from Church to Girl Scouts meets once a week)
AA - (Snarky)"Well I have to go to a lot of meetings to stay sober!" (Flounce)
Rain - Uh, ok.

So I looked for another meeting.

Whee! There was a young peoples meeting.

I went. At 26 I had a decade on the oldest member.
They were very nice and asked if I'd read the book.

"BOOK? There's a book?

(I'll read any and everything up to and including dictionaries and phone books if I can't get my hands on anything else. I'm sure there is a program for that, but I don't want to go.)

Not only was there a book, There were FREAKIN' INSTUCTIONS!

I was 4 months sober before I knew there WERE steps.

I picked my first sponsor because she knew what the steps WERE!
Whoo Hoo!

How would anyone know about the steps and the book without being told?

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:

LinBaba wrote:
That's all this thread was meant to be about, not horse whipping relapsers and newcomers down main street or who's God can kick who's God butt or even bringing up the ultra tedious "meetings vs steps" debate that was a dead horse years ago

Ok, then let's get back to your second reply. You said:

"My Basic Text does not read, Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of dont drink and go to meetings"

Maybe your text doesn't say that, but it describes my experience pretty well. I had a spiritual awakening from not drinking and going to meetings. There, I said it. Did I work the steps? Yes. But I didn't effectively get past 3 until I had already had the spiritual awakening. So I'll just leave it at that. My way isn't for everybody. I didn't choose it or plan it, that's just how it turned out. So it's not conjecture or philosophy or even opinion really - it's just experience. And there's no great reason for anyone reading this to even believe me, nor is it particularly important that they do. Nor is it important for newcomers to pay any attention to me, because the way I did it is not the way they're going to do it. Their experience will be different.

Sorry about the damn underlining, I can't turn it off.

Barisax

LOL (about the underlining) me neither I didn't mean to have that bolded or underlined but I couldn't "turn it off"

Well there it is, that makes a lot of sense, "don't drink and go to meetings" worked for you, and that's a good thing, I understand where you are coming from a lot better now, it explains a lot, the no sponsoring etc. hard to recreate that other then by not drinking and going to meetings

I don't mean this in a bad way, in any way shape or form, it just explains your reactions to my posts such as this one, what was needed for me wasn't needed for you, I needed to work the steps to have my spiritual awakening and get better, this thread was aimed at those with similar needs and experiences to remember to make sure to pass that on to newcomers they see in meetings who also need that

-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 24th of November 2010 10:10:44 PM

barisax · Senior Member

LinBaba wrote:
Well there it is, that makes a lot of sense, "don't drink and go to meetings" worked for you, and that's a good thing, I understand where you are coming from a lot better now, it explains a lot, the no sponsoring etc. hard to recreate that other then by not drinking and going to meetings

I do want to say in case it got left out, that I did get a sponsor early on. It was someone who was at my first meeting, that I related to. I asked him to be my sponsor within the first week or so, and the first thing he wanted from me was to call him every day and get a home group. He suggested one... his. It's still my home group today although my sponsor passed away (22 years sober) a few years back. Having the home group was a big part of not drinking and coming to meetings. It took away the random "what meeting do I go to... maybe I'll skip" for one night a week. I say don't drink and come to meetings works for me because it's what I've done without fail, and it's the ONLY thing I've done without fail. I've certainly had my time flailing with the steps, particularly 3 and 4.

My sponsor didn't push me on the steps. I heard a lot about the steps, I went to step meetings, I saw people with less time than me talking about 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th steps. When I first asked him about doing a 4th step he just chuckled and had me review 1,2, and 3 and I hemmed and hawed on 3. And that's just kind of how it went for a while, until I "made the decision to turn my will and my life over", which for me wasn't sliding over into the passenger seat and saying "Ok God, take over", but it was "Made a decision to get off being stuck on 3 and do the rest of the steps".

All of that's another story I need to tell at some point.

I also got a big book at my first meeting, and read the first 164 pages within a few days. That's a long way from getting it, but in my first reading, the things that stood out to me were the story of the jaywalker, and the story of "Jim" the car salesman. The chapter to agnostics is one I eagerly devoured, since that's what I considered myself to be. It seemed to be saying I could keep on calling myself that if I wanted to, but showed me how I could still acknowledge a power greater than myself.

One of the great gifts of AA for me has been the gift of uncertainty. I have always been uncertain of course, but I decided it was ok to be uncertain - that a God capable of creating this universe and running it is waaaay beyond my ability to comprehend. Or, in other words, if I understand it, it probably ain't God. And in that regard I'm happy to be an agnostic, which basically means, I just don't know what God is or how He works. I've met so many who are sure that they've found the God button and all they need to do is push it and whatever it is they think they need will be on its way. I don't think the God button is there for me to call God. He already knows what I need. It's there for me to remind me who's in charge, and that my visualization of a button is probably as close as I can get to understanding anything at all.

Barisax

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

barisax wrote:

LinBaba wrote:
Well there it is, that makes a lot of sense, "don't drink and go to meetings" worked for you, and that's a good thing, I understand where you are coming from a lot better now, it explains a lot, the no sponsoring etc. hard to recreate that other then by not drinking and going to meetings

I do want to say in case it got left out, that I did get a sponsor early on. It was someone who was at my first meeting, that I related to. I asked him to be my sponsor within the first week or so, and the first thing he wanted from me was to call him every day and get a home group. He suggested one... his. It's still my home group today although my sponsor passed away (22 years sober) a few years back. Having the home group was a big part of not drinking and coming to meetings. It took away the random "what meeting do I go to... maybe I'll skip" for one night a week. I say don't drink and come to meetings works for me because it's what I've done without fail, and it's the ONLY thing I've done without fail. I've certainly had my time flailing with the steps, particularly 3 and 4.

My sponsor didn't push me on the steps. I heard a lot about the steps, I went to step meetings, I saw people with less time than me talking about 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th steps. When I first asked him about doing a 4th step he just chuckled and had me review 1,2, and 3 and I hemmed and hawed on 3. And that's just kind of how it went for a while, until I "made the decision to turn my will and my life over", which for me wasn't sliding over into the passenger seat and saying "Ok God, take over", but it was "Made a decision to get off being stuck on 3 and do the rest of the steps".

All of that's another story I need to tell at some point.

I also got a big book at my first meeting, and read the first 164 pages within a few days. That's a long way from getting it, but in my first reading, the things that stood out to me were the story of the jaywalker, and the story of "Jim" the car salesman. The chapter to agnostics is one I eagerly devoured, since that's what I considered myself to be. It seemed to be saying I could keep on calling myself that if I wanted to, but showed me how I could still acknowledge a power greater than myself.

One of the great gifts of AA for me has been the gift of uncertainty. I have always been uncertain of course, but I decided it was ok to be uncertain - that a God capable of creating this universe and running it is waaaay beyond my ability to comprehend. Or, in other words, if I understand it, it probably ain't God. And in that regard I'm happy to be an agnostic, which basically means, I just don't know what God is or how He works. I've met so many who are sure that they've found the God button and all they need to do is push it and whatever it is they think they need will be on its way. I don't think the God button is there for me to call God. He already knows what I need. It's there for me to remind me who's in charge, and that my visualization of a button is probably as close as I can get to understanding anything at all.

Barisax

Thanks

I get it, in a lot, and I mean a lot of ways our "stories" parallel, the only difference is I -did- work the steps in the first 6 months, then again a few more times by 3 years, each time more thorough

I don't know what it would have been like for me had I not worked the steps, because it's just not my experience, but I do hear and see people by the truckload be unable to stay sober until they -do- work the steps, but that is when they -surrender-

so where is the spiritual experience, the steps or the surrender?

in most cases I think they are linked

I would love for you to have the opportunity to work the steps with a sponsee all the way to 12, it is one of the most, if not the most powerful experience this program has to offer in my experience, and I think you have a lot to offer, a lot of love, humility, patience, and experience

I would like for me to get to 20 years hahahahahahaha I will never -God willing- catch most of my sponsees though, I have a passel of em coming up on 20 years, hell I had a guy I used to drag to meetings and just say "shut up Alex" to sponsor me for nigh on a decade 7 years after I used to drag him to meetings as newcomer

be nice to them thar newcomers, one day one might be your sponsor lolol

nice thing about being a complete p***** is I get lessons in humility maybe other people miss out on lololol