Depression .... ok a whinge

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Depression .... ok a whinge

Posey · Veteran Member

I've no idea how to address the rest of this, but I do know from experience that exercise will pull me right out of a low mood. Sweat IS an elixir. Have you tried different meetings places/times? I hope you find an answer soon, my friend.

SUSIE · Senior Member

Remember....you are getting this information from a web site. Seek medical help and let them decide your situation. I don't think a web site is a good place to diagnose yourself. Also .....I agree that excersize and a healty diet help with alot of things that go on in this alcoholic mind. Alot for working toward a healthy minds set and healthy body. Works together.

happycamper · MIP Old Timer

Great idea to start a big book meeting.

But guess what? ........

Uhhh the big book talks about God and often too.

Ennzo · Member

the first group iwent to was hard core god group which frightened me off aa for 12 years. I`ve just returned (not to that group and found that god has mysteriously disappeared for which I thank god(heavy irony)I`ve got buddism cos you need something spiritual to stay sober. If you`re interested there`s a good book called the zen of recovery by Mel Ash. I agree some meetings can get boring but I think you`ve just got to repeat it ANd repeat it until its all in the front of your consciousness and you can say it in your sleep,Muslims memorise the Koran and I`ve never heard them complain about it being boring. Stop winging and looking for excuses to go back on the booze.We all know your little game cos we`ve played it so many times ourself

hope you stay sober

tokengirl · Veteran Member

She hit the nail on the head! Quit lookin for the differences and annoyin little things. That may not be where your at, but it could save another! "Quit trying to play God"

Ennzo wrote:

the first group iwent to was hard core god group which frightened me off aa for 12 years. I`ve just returned (not to that group and found that god has mysteriously disappeared for which I thank god(heavy irony)I`ve got buddism cos you need something spiritual to stay sober. If you`re interested there`s a good book called the zen of recovery by Mel Ash. I agree some meetings can get boring but I think you`ve just got to repeat it ANd repeat it until its all in the front of your consciousness and you can say it in your sleep,Muslims memorise the Koran and I`ve never heard them complain about it being boring. Stop winging and looking for excuses to go back on the booze.We all know your little game cos we`ve played it so many times ourself

hope you stay sober

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

I've stopped doing this as I think it's wrong, disrespectful to main share, I've been told we need to present a positive spin to newcomers, I know it generally is fueled by resentments (especially if I start hearing YOU NEED GOD).
However now I'm thinking it's not just resentments, I'm bored of hearing drink stories, newcomers - especially ones of my type - want to know how to stay sober, quite a few don't want to hear about god - I think that's the main reason newcomers turn away quite quickly - the ratio of older members to new ones is very very low compared to meetings in my old region.

My conclusion is to try to start a BB Discussion group, it's fear of failure that's stopping me but as their are none for nearly 60 miles then .. no competition

I think I've just answered my question again...

A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous Primary Purpose is to carry it's message to the alcoholic that still suffers. That message is follow our path THOROUGHLY and don't drink, and that path is get a sponsor and work the steps, if there is no "solution" in a meeting, there is only "disease" and the message isn't being carried, just a huddled mass of people without a clue in Group therapy not drinking one day at a time, there is no "recovery, only abstinence, and abstinence is the leadng cause of relapse.

"War Stories" from people who haven't worked the steps who therefore aren't "recovered" or "How My Day was" from newcomers don't keep anybody sober for any length of time, you see unhealthy groups huddled together in fear talking about how their disease is out in the parking lot doing pushups, if that's the case someday that person will meet that disease in a dark alley and they will have no effective mental defense against that first drink. It's only a matter of time, usually a long miserable time for that person and everyone around them, nothing worse then a dryer then a popcorn fart alcoholic

That defense must come from "a Power greater then ourselves" our more religious members call it God, our less religious members call it Higher Power, and our non religious members call it "A personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism"

In order to actually "work" The Program of AA, one has to actually "work" the steps with a sponsor, that means sitting down and reading out of the Big Book, answering questions when they come, deciding what YOUR higher power looks like to you when you get to step and putting pen to paper when it says "We Put Pen to Paper"

The Steps are a "Radio to talk to God" or to discover "The Great Reality" which is found within, whether you call it God or not, what I learned to do was plug my OWN value in whenever I heard or read the word God, which quite frankly Bill tells us to do repeatedly, so when people talk about finding God, they aren't telling you to find THEIR God, they are telling you to find your own, because the steps are a mathematical equation that bring about recovery from Alcoholism, but part of that mathematical equation is the word God, or in Algebraic terms, lets call it (X)

(X) = A power Greater then Yourself

You don't believe there is a power greater then yourself, go stick your tongue in a wall outlet and get back to me

Don't worry about the word "God" until you get to step 3, don't worry about step 3 until you do step 2, don't worry about step 2 until you work step 1, don't worry about step 1 until you get a sponsor and start working the steps, which in our literature is suggested to start "immediately" in step 5 they refer to the person working step 5 as a "newcomer" which we define as someone in their forst 30 days to give you an idea

when you get to step 3, here is some light reading for those of an atheist/agnostic temperment that find themselves stuck

How I worked Step 3 in Alcoholics Anonymous

THE terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming "God-consciousness" followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the "educational variety" because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it "God-consciousness."

Most emhpatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spiritual side of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 31st of October 2010 12:14:51 AM

angelov8 · MIP Old Timer

My conclusion is to try to start a BB Discussion group, it's fear of failure that's stopping me but as their are none for nearly 60 miles then .. no competition

I think I've just answered my question again...

A Meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous Primary Purpose is to carry it's message to the alcoholic that still suffers. That message is follow our path THOROUGHLY and don't drink, and that path is get a sponsor and work the steps, if there is no "solution" in a meeting, there is only "disease" and the message isn't being carried, just a huddled mass of people without a clue in Group therapy not drinking one day at a time, there is no "recovery, only abstinence, and abstinence is the leadng cause of relapse.

"War Stories" from people who haven't worked the steps who therefore aren't "recovered" or "How My Day was" from newcomers don't keep anybody sober for any length of time, you see unhealthy groups huddled together in fear talking about how their disease is out in the parking lot doing pushups, if that's the case someday that person will meet that disease in a dark alley and they will have no effective mental defense against that first drink. -- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 31st of October 2010 12:14:51 AM

In my observance and personal experience, what is in the two paragraphs above is true. The answer for me has been BB study, the steps, particularly 2 and 3, but really all of them, and exactly why, was so clearly, in my mind, detailed by Linbaba in the post above.

Go for it. BB and 12X12 studies are my fave. Invite as many oldtimers as you can get!

-- Edited by angelov8 on Sunday 31st of October 2010 02:47:20 AM

Jorvick · Veteran Member

happycamper wrote:

Great idea to start a big book meeting.

But guess what? ........

Uhhh the big book talks about God and often too.

Yeah but it's a metaphor in most places and it's inclusion was partly because of the Oxford Christain Fundamentalist roots and to keep churches happy.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking ..... not become a christian preaching all those that don't should leave and drink.

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Ennzo wrote:

Stop winging and looking for excuses to go back on the booze.We all know your little game cos we`ve played it so many times ourself

hope you stay sober

I don't think I want to drink at all. I am finding it really difficult to find a sane sponsor and I played with going back to my old (AA) region for a few days to get new one.
I've thought it was me for months, having sponsors go sick. I honestly thought I was playing the game and doing all the suggestions but all my sponsors seem to go sick.

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Just going to meetings won't keep you long term sober.

War stories won't keep you long term sober

Hints and Tips won't keep you long term sober

Dancing round meetings until you find one you like won't keep you long term sober

Setting up your own meetings right now won't keep you long term sober

but there is a solution.

Get a sponsor.

Work through the steps

Live in the programme.

Simple formula which worked for me was.
Sponsor
Steps
Step Meeting
Home Group
Humility
Surrender
Acceptance

Step One
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - (every time I pick up a drink, I develop a craving for more and more of the bloody stuff)
and our lives had become unmanageable - (I obsess about being able to control my drinking, I obsess about alcohol above all else)

Step Two - came to believe that a power greater than ourselves (God, Higher Power, Group of Drunks, Good Orderly Direction etc. - the power greater than myself used to be alcohol, my best efforts so far have got me in this mess, my Higher Power now is my business, you can borrow it until you find your own.) could restore us to sanity (sanity = health. I am living an unhealthy existance, therefore I am not sane)

Step Three - made a decision to turn our will (Our thinking) and our lives (our Actions) over to the care of God as we understood him. (That's as I understand him, not as you or any other bugger understands him - this is not fatalism, this is not a cop out, this is turning everything I think and do up to the light)

So, not so hard is it? Are you willing to go to any lengths? Are you willing to accept that you cannot do it alone and that you might as well stop paddling in the shallows of recovery and plunge straight into the deep water.?

These are just my opinions which are worth exactly what has been paid for them - shag all. The comments in brackets are my understandings. I hope someone finds this helpful.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

Ennzo wrote:

Stop winging and looking for excuses to go back on the booze.We all know your little game cos we`ve played it so many times ourself

hope you stay sober

I don't think I want to drink at all. I am finding it really difficult to find a sane sponsor and I played with going back to my old (AA) region for a few days to get new one.
I've thought it was me for months, having sponsors go sick. I honestly thought I was playing the game and doing all the suggestions but all my sponsors seem to go sick.

Bill is spot on and Enzo is even blunter then I am, but he is right, above us in this thread it is explained repeatedly, yet you focus on something you can argue with, active alcoholism "masks" itself as many different things, even when the alcoholic isn't drinking, depression, sleep disorders, ADD, narcissism, bi-polar, even up to sociopath the list goes on and on, Alcoholism is very powerful and will convince you that you don't have it even while it is strangling you to death, it will tell you that you are clinically depressed and you need pills, it will tell you that you can't sleep so valium is a good idea, alcoholism is a disease based in the mind that is actively trying to kill you.

So if it's based in your mind, that means an alcoholics thinking is skewed, it will distort reality and make you so uncomfortable that taking a drink seems a good idea, you wont remember the suffering of just a short while ago, and untreated alcoholism is patient, it will tell you stories knowing that at the end of this road a drink is coming, then, all control is lost

I understand your antipathy about evangelizing and Christianity because I shared it when I came here to get sober myself, and so did Bill (who wrote the big book) and so did most of my 30 odd sponsees that got and stayed sober. We, each and every one of us had to be open minded and learn how to have our own concept of a power greater then ourselves.

The Big Book doesn't talk about God to keep Churches happy, The Big Book talks about God because they learned from Carl Jung that a spiritual experience was necessary to recover from alcoholism, and Christianity was the vehicle that was available to have that spiritual experience, and spiritual path will work but they just happened to choose a group of Christian fundamentalists practicing 1st century Christianity because it worked.

I am an died in the wool Pagan/Atheist/Agnostic with a deep rooted antipathy for Christianity that dates back to my childhood yet by following suggestions I no longer have a problem with the word God, and when others speak of their God, I plug in my own "value" for God and we are in total and perfect agreement and harmony, I get along harmoniously with people from every religion, and we talk about spirituality far into the night whether they be Wiccan, Christian, or Buddhist, of which I am none, we can talk about God all night long and agree about every single thing, because we use our own concept of God

I was told "stop picking the fly poop out of the pepper, get your head out of your ass and work the steps" when I was new and was getting into the this debate and saying the same things you are now, I didn't know it but all I was displaying was my own closed-minded ignorance and inability to follow direction and think outside the box

Yes I think a Big Book Study is a Good Idea, since the entire purpose of the book is to enable you to find a higher power of your own, there is nothing allegorical about that statement, it says in black and white:

Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.
We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. To others, the word "God" brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood. Perhaps we rejected this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely. We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly. We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism. We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, make all this?" There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.
Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a solution. Almost none of us liked the self- searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been living it. When, therefore, we were approached by those in whom the problem had been solved, there was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at out feet. We have found much of heaven and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed.
The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences* which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.
If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help.

So it's up to you, Do AA, get a sponsor, work the steps, do what we do to get what we want, or re-invent the wheel yourself, which is what alcoholics have been trying to do for untold countless thousands of years with limited or no success

AA works if you work it as it is written

-- Edited by LinBaba on Sunday 31st of October 2010 10:33:30 AM

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Yes was in whinge mood this am and I agree with what enzo and bill said. Which is why I'm confused. I did speak to another potential sponsor this morn. But changing to him would make it four in nearly a year. The obvious implication is that it's me.
I dont want to start again, yet I ended trying to sponsor myself yesterday. At least I watched a Joe mcq vid but that ended up as my last rant.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

Yes was in whinge mood this am and I agree with what enzo and bill said. Which is why I'm confused. I did speak to another potential sponsor this morn. But changing to him would make it four in nearly a year. The obvious implication is that it's me.
I dont want to start again, yet I ended trying to sponsor myself yesterday. At least I watched a Joe mcq vid but that ended up as my last rant.

heard, acknowledged and understood

maybe try someone with a little more time who has successfully demonstrated he has sponsored others out of the book the way his sponsor did for him?

Good luck, being between sponsors can be an awful experience early on, been there, done that it's horrible

Don't be discouraged, remember "God" doesn't give you more then you can handle, and possibly you have a similar "God" as I do, one with an inflated view of what I can handle hahahahahaha

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Ain't that many this part of town, had one from across town as a temp one. I need to consider changing though, my lack of progress could be me.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:
my lack of progress could be me.

umm, yeah, at the end of the day mine always is, as hard as I look for someone else to blame, the steps help with that, it's now "hard wired" into me to look for "my part" in every situation, even ones seemingly the fault of other people, because I am there, and if it's ongoing...then it stops being about them and becomes all me as I stay in that situation, I have discovered some pretty bitter pills I had to swallow, as if I always seem to "fail" or "suffer" why am I addicted to those things? If I am involved with someone who is abusive, whether through work or romantically, what is it I like about being abused? Am I feeding my low self esteem? am I addicted to drama? Am I addicted to suffering?

I have reluctanctly discovered the answer was yes to all of these questions at one time or another, because by writing the evidence is sitting square in front of my face

One way that truly helped me understand that was a movie called "What The Bleep Do We Know" it has some new age horse pucky but it also has some incredible insights and shows how we get addicted to these things on a biological level, what happens is we comfortable with what we grew up with, or what has been going on for a long time, then we start what is known as "The Deliberate manufacture of Misery" and since we create our own reality we learn how we are drawn to and create drama and suffering in our life, personally I equate it with the disease of alcoholism artificially creating suffering so taking a drink seems a good idea and I am ever vigilant swatting these negative thoughts and shooing them away as they crop up

A good Sponsor will help you with this issue (or did me) and watching that movie made my mouth drop open, I found it online somewhere, took me a few hours but it was well worth it

angelov8 · MIP Old Timer

I love the exchange in this thread. It has made me feel more tenderness and compassion for the alcoholic dilema and for alcoholics in general, and likewise for myself, as I am most certainly one of us.

Dan B 76 · Veteran Member

Jorvick wrote:

Ennzo wrote:

Stop winging and looking for excuses to go back on the booze.We all know your little game cos we`ve played it so many times ourself

hope you stay sober

I don't think I want to drink at all. I am finding it really difficult to find a sane sponsor and I played with going back to my old (AA) region for a few days to get new one.
I've thought it was me for months, having sponsors go sick. I honestly thought I was playing the game and doing all the suggestions but all my sponsors seem to go sick.

Generally we don't think we want to drink we just drink and wonder what happened. Remember we deal with alcohol cunning, baffeling and powerful. Be careful.

Please explain about your sponsors going sick. What happens? What changes? Describe sick. I know for me when I was using I would go where ever needed for a drink or high. If your sobriety was better in your old AA region I would suggest that yo get back there as fast as you can and do what needs to be done to stabilize your program.

I have started meetings before, my current home group is a BB meeting I and a friend started 6 - 7 years ago, but while it formed I attended and still attend other meetings. I started the BB meeting as there wasn't one around and I have a passion for the BB. What has kept me sober is don't drink, read the BB and go to meetings. KISS. The rest of what has been presented to you here will fall into place if you follow this simple program.

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

Ain't that many this part of town, had one from across town as a temp one. I need to consider changing though, my lack of progress could be me.

? There are around 24 meetings a week in Leeds, some more in Bradford and wakefield, even York ain't that far away (GSO is in York) - then you've got south yorkshire and there are buses and trains. Out of all that lot, you should be able to find a sponsor that scares the pants off you and is willing to take you on. C'mon, Leeds is one of the 4 biggest cities in England.

Outside help for outside issues, AA is an inside job.

Jorvick · Veteran Member

I'm wondering if my use of the term sick was correct, it originates from the primary purpose CD's that seem to be passed around local meetings.

However, sponsor 2 was changed when they went through a leaving AA period and current sponsor has clinical depression.

The odd thing about the current sponsor (which could be me), I've rejected his post step 4 idea of no relationship for another year and his more liberal view of relationships is ok (thinking about it - this pattern was seen with the previous sponsor).

With relationships (I'm only stating this bit because I've thought about it for over year): I believe my core problem was fear. I have had very few relationships that started on equal footing and very few relationships in total, I'd prefer to act as prey instead of the traditional male role of aggressor. It's a pattern that's all over my step 4 but I feel I got a standarised view on women applied to my step 4 by sponsors - I'd gone out and treated them like meat (Given the fact I'd not had sex with 2 of the 4 women on my step 4 - I find that hard to believe)

So an obvious conclusion would be to work on this problem in a target rich environment (I haven't) but it's a core problem.

Just back tracking slightly, the two women in the "not had sex with" category are both similar ........ to me, this floored me when I realised. Same education, same spiritual beliefs, same fear over sex, same emotional problems, similar family issues etc etc.
Which oddly was like my first meeting, we are all similar etc...

Jorvick · Veteran Member

bikerbill wrote:

? There are around 24 meetings a week in Leeds, some more in Bradford and wakefield, even York ain't that far away (GSO is in York) - then you've got south yorkshire and there are buses and trains. Out of all that lot, you should be able to find a sponsor that scares the pants off you and is willing to take you on. C'mon, Leeds is one of the 4 biggest cities in England.

Outside help for outside issues, AA is an inside job.

Granted... so the obvious implication is it's me, accepted.

All meetings (less step and BB plus the odd other), are 1 hour long - main share for 20 mins and 30 mins discussion (plus readings for 10-20 mins). If you want anything out of that pattern then it's off to Lancashire or Notts/Derbys - they tend to be 1 1/2 hour meetings, short reading from BB and then discussion (plus the ratio of oldtimers to newcomers is massively different 80-20 instead of the other way around - well 40-60).

Yorkshire is known to be BB heavy/protestant/puritanical outside the borders, sharing on any problem that makes you drink is frowned upon. Even the newcomer meetings have preamble that makes them unwelcome (in newcomer speak - it's shut the fcuk up), try sitting in meeting with a drunk newcomer present (this is a problem with the main share format - as the newcomer can't help but look rude).

Intolerance is imbred into meetings, this their not well is used to select main shares and if your not at their spiritual level it's very difficult to associate. It's not helped when the replies all start with ego boosting or sales pitch replies, again very difficult to associate with and sometimes the newbie can pitch in at the end with a 'I need help with this problem that's making me drink'

The defects of Monotheism are at it's very core and portrayed (brainwashed) as being it's strengths. I love the bit about AA being an organisation which places the individual as being the top of the organisation, a pyramid upside down. With a strong monotheism AA, it's quite easy to replace the god of alcohol with a BB and/or christian God, simple transference of defects and not removal - yes it's better than drinking but not a solution I want - it's kept the pyramid the wrong way around.

In short I like going to meetings that have loads of newcomers - lol

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

bikerbill wrote:

? There are around 24 meetings a week in Leeds, some more in Bradford and wakefield, even York ain't that far away (GSO is in York) - then you've got south yorkshire and there are buses and trains. Out of all that lot, you should be able to find a sponsor that scares the pants off you and is willing to take you on. C'mon, Leeds is one of the 4 biggest cities in England.

Outside help for outside issues, AA is an inside job.

Granted... so the obvious implication is it's me, accepted.
All meetings (less step and BB plus the odd other), are 1 hour long - main share for 20 mins and 30 mins discussion (plus readings for 10-20 mins). If you want anything out of that pattern then it's off to Lancashire or Notts/Derbys - they tend to be 1 1/2 hour meetings, short reading from BB and then discussion (plus the ratio of oldtimers to newcomers is massively different 80-20 instead of the other way around - well 40-60).
Is that how it is in Leeds? Never been to a leeds meeting. all but 2 Barnsley meetings are 90 minutes (the other two ar 75 minutes, no break). the preamble, opening remars etc take no more than 5, the main share is generally restricted to 15 minutes. Leaving lot's of time for open sharing. we have in Barnsley, Step and Trads meeting on Monday, general meeting tuesday (in teh re hab), general wednesday (plenty Old Timers), Living Sober Thursday PM, a stand alone meeting on Friday in penistone, which rolls round step once a month, trads once a month and general twice a month, newcomers on saturday and genreal meeting on Sunday afternoon.

Yorkshire is known to be BB heavy/protestant/puritanical outside the borders, sharing on any problem that makes you drink is frowned upon. Even the newcomer meetings have preamble that makes them unwelcome (in newcomer speak - it's shut the fcuk up), try sitting in meeting with a drunk newcomer present (this is a problem with the main share format - as the newcomer can't help but look rude).

yep, i would say that in my bit of yorkshire we are BB heavy but i believe we are very inclusive with regard to faith / belief / religion. Ok there are a fair few WASPs about, but there are also Spiritualists, Catholics, Buddhists, tree huggers, sun worshippers, orange fanciers etc. all valid and all welcome, along with the others who have no definition of their Higher power other than there is one and it ain't me.
Intolerance is imbred into meetings, this their not well is used to select main shares and if your not at their spiritual level it's very difficult to associate. It's not helped when the replies all start with ego boosting or sales pitch replies, again very difficult to associate with and sometimes the newbie can pitch in at the end with a 'I need help with this problem that's making me drink'
The defects of Monotheism are at it's very core and portrayed (brainwashed) as being it's strengths. I love the bit about AA being an organisation which places the individual as being the top of the organisation, a pyramid upside down. With a strong monotheism AA, it's quite easy to replace the god of alcohol with a BB and/or christian God, simple transference of defects and not removal - yes it's better than drinking but not a solution I want - it's kept the pyramid the wrong way around.
In short I like going to meetings that have loads of newcomers - lol

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Might have to pop down.... hmm was I doing a people, places and things.....

Must admit I have liked the Fri Doncaster and Sat Mansfield ... Sheffield Sat appeared to be 50% West Riding and 50% Notts/Derbys - which I decided was a balance.

I was a bit apprehensive when I say the alert pop up on the email.. I realised I'd gone off on one.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

There are some wise words in this thread. Read page 417 in the big book about acceptance. It would seem to me that you are having problems acclimating to new meetings and just are not feeling centered. I think you need to worry less about what the meetings in your area do not bring to you and worry more about what you bring to them. So, I think a service commitment of some type is in order and this would help you feel more a part of, be more active in the sober community where you are and be more at peace with your role in that community as opposed to feeling outside of it. Alcoholism does try and take us out in sneaky ways. This includes telling us how different we are than everyone else and getting us to the point where we stop attending meetings and relapse. Be careful and try to identify with those around you. There is something of benefit in all meetings and most sponsors who know the steps would and will work for you if YOU are the one who wants to learn.

I am not a fan of fundamentalist religion in AA, but I have no problem with the mention of God and such. I just think about my own HP and try and translate how I can strengthen my own spirituality in the same way but without the specific dogma that i don't personally believe in. So..."the God" thing is not a problem in AA unless you make it one.

Just keep working and carve out your own niche in the fellowship that is surrounding you. You did earn a seat there so don't excuse yourself and walk away.

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

Granted... so the obvious implication is it's me, accepted.
All meetings (less step and BB plus the odd other), are 1 hour long - main share for 20 mins and 30 mins discussion (plus readings for 10-20 mins). If you want anything out of that pattern then it's off to Lancashire or Notts/Derbys - they tend to be 1 1/2 hour meetings, short reading from BB and then discussion (plus the ratio of oldtimers to newcomers is massively different 80-20 instead of the other way around - well 40-60).
Yorkshire is known to be BB heavy/protestant/puritanical outside the borders, sharing on any problem that makes you drink is frowned upon. Even the newcomer meetings have preamble that makes them unwelcome (in newcomer speak - it's shut the fcuk up), try sitting in meeting with a drunk newcomer present (this is a problem with the main share format - as the newcomer can't help but look rude).
Intolerance is imbred into meetings, this their not well is used to select main shares and if your not at their spiritual level it's very difficult to associate. It's not helped when the replies all start with ego boosting or sales pitch replies, again very difficult to associate with and sometimes the newbie can pitch in at the end with a 'I need help with this problem that's making me drink'
The defects of Monotheism are at it's very core and portrayed (brainwashed) as being it's strengths. I love the bit about AA being an organisation which places the individual as being the top of the organisation, a pyramid upside down. With a strong monotheism AA, it's quite easy to replace the god of alcohol with a BB and/or christian God, simple transference of defects and not removal - yes it's better than drinking but not a solution I want - it's kept the pyramid the wrong way around.
In short I like going to meetings that have loads of newcomers - lol

Pink nailed it here when he wrote:

I am not a fan of fundamentalist religion in AA, but I have no problem with the mention of God and such. I just think about my own HP and try and translate how I can strengthen my own spirituality in the same way but without the specific dogma that i don't personally believe in. So..."the God" thing is not a problem in AA unless you make it one.

A few things come to mind when I read this thread in it's entirety

I do see a lot of intolerance and being close minded about religion, but not from the monotheists, and remember I aint a big fan of christianity or monotheism, but they are the ones being tolerant and open minded here....uh oh

I see a lot of "yeah but yeah but" as in I read a few times:

Granted... so the obvious implication is it's me, accepted.
and then you write all this twaddle about intolerance and monotheism when the fact is we don't have any idea what someone's idea is about their "God" when they use the word "God", they mean their own concept of God

So is it you or them? Yes there are monotheists in AA, big deal, they are allowed their own concept of God just as you are, and their concept of what their God is none of your business just as your concept of God is none of theirs, we use the word God and other spiritual language in AA because this is spiritual program, our job isn't to decide what that means to other people, our job is to decide what that means to us

It was suggested to me I look for the similarities and not the differences in meetings, and if I did nothing but nit pick everything I didn't agree with, take everyone else's inventory, and judge them and what concept of God they choose life wouldn't be worth living, what a miserable F'ing existence that would be, so I had to put down the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror

I was told when I was new if I was actually working my own program and trying to rid myself of my own character defects I would be so busy I wouldn't have time to take other peoples inventories, by definition if I am spending all my time judging others and taking their inventories I am not taking my own.

Truthfully I am a Taoist, and a pastafarian, or will even use the flying spaghetti monster if pressed to define my higher power

about newcomers sharing when I was new I was asked:

Could I teach anyone in that room how to get drunk?

the answer was no

Could I teach anyone in that room how to stay sober?

Again, to be perfectly honest, the answer was no, if I knew how to stay sober I wouldn't be there, the truth was I was there to learn how to stay sober

So I was asked "So why are you sharing at a meeting of AA then? If you can't teach anyone how to get drunk, and you can't teach anyone how to get sober, why don't you try something new in your life for once.

Listening

Can a newcomer offer the solution to alcoholism? It's not a matter of newcomers being unwelcome, it's a matter of this is a meeting of alcoholics anonymous where we offer the solution to alcoholism, and if you can't offer the solution, all you have to offer is the problem.

So once again, I leave it to you, the option is yours, Do AA as it is written which is a "one size fits all" program with love and tolerance built in or start your own program, but if you just go to AA and expect them to work "your" program and do things your way (which obviously didn't work) expect frustration, bitterness and a string of "failed sponsors" because they won't do it "your way"

If you want what we have, follow our path thoroughly and learn to be as open minded about other peoples beliefs as they are willing to be about yours, which is we don't care if you worship lawn gnomes, but once again

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.
We find that no one need have difficulty with the spiritual side of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 1st of November 2010 12:47:29 PM

Jorvick · Veteran Member

LinBaba wrote:

So once again, I leave it to you, the option is yours, Do AA as it is written which is a "one size fits all" program with love and tolerance built in or start your own program, but if you just go to AA and expect them to work "your" program and do things your way (which obviously didn't work) expect frustration, bitterness and a string of "failed sponsors" because they won't do it "your way"

Erm.... I didn't write the meeting format of AA, I'm not the reincarnate of Bill or Bob? I'm sure if I could get facts and figures, "my way" works wonders, commercial 12 step groups are flourishing and most meetings have plenty of newcomers.

You might be shocked at this, they even have coloureds at meetings, heathens, muslims, gays ..... it's a wonderful world.

but your going to think, whatever I say, I'm being sarcastic...... but it's impossible for me to have formed the first meeting I went to.

So ..... what now?

Jorvick · Veteran Member

pinkchip wrote:

It would seem to me that you are having problems acclimating to new meetings and just are not feeling centered.

But it's been going on for a year? I wish I'd not got sober in a share environment, I may have a problem with direct listening. Maybe I tried to be near my kids too soon, I should have waited until I'd done some of the steps at least.

I apologise for going off on one (frequently) .. I do seem better afterwards and so I'm being a tad selfish.

I am listening but not getting it very quikly.

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick...I wish you had all the meetings available to you that I did here in south florida. I went to a mixture of all kinds of groups including necomers' groups which seem to be what benefits you the most. Having been to so many of those meetings in my first year, and still today, I see the benefit. This is not to say you cannot benefit greatly from what does exist where you are at and what actually is. Try and identify rather than compare. Also, when I first came into AA, I was so desperate that I was willing to listen to anyone going on and on about Jesus, God or whatever...If it worked for them, there might be something in it for me. Just try to listen and get the meaning out of it that make sense to you. Don't be so hardcore about your beliefs about christianity...Look for the people that use those beliefs to translate into Faith, Hope, and living the 12 steps in all their affairs. Be grateful there are meetings at all because in other remote places you might not have what you have there. As far as sharing and really speaking your mind, that is why you need a sponsor ASAP. The sponsor will be there to listen and hear you out. You don't need to dump it all in meetings. Stay focused and keep your sobriety.

Mark

LinBaba · MIP Old Timer

Jorvick wrote:

LinBaba wrote:

So once again, I leave it to you, the option is yours, Do AA as it is written which is a "one size fits all" program with love and tolerance built in or start your own program, but if you just go to AA and expect them to work "your" program and do things your way (which obviously didn't work) expect frustration, bitterness and a string of "failed sponsors" because they won't do it "your way"

Erm.... I didn't write the meeting format of AA, I'm not the reincarnate of Bill or Bob? I'm sure if I could get facts and figures, "my way" works wonders, commercial 12 step groups are flourishing and most meetings have plenty of newcomers.
You might be shocked at this, they even have coloureds at meetings, heathens, muslims, gays ..... it's a wonderful world.
but your going to think, whatever I say, I'm being sarcastic...... but it's impossible for me to have formed the first meeting I went to.
So ..... what now?

I feel that there is a "disconnect" happening here, you are not understanding what I am trying to say, which is yes, we have buddhists, atheists, agnostics, and we all are open to each others beliefs, which is to say others beliefs are their own business, just as ours is our own

I got sober in San Francisco California, so you don't need to really explain to me the diverse element we have in AA, I have been to all police officer meetings, gay meetings, "gang banger" meetings, mens meetings, open meetings, private meetings, beach.bonfire sunset meetings, closed meetings and meetings in a number of other countries, I have been to meetings in London, Mexico, as well as states across America for two decades, I KNOW what we "allow" in meetings

Alcoholics

All of them

You got a problem with alcohol, welcome, you want to do something about it? Come in come in we have a seat for you? what? worshipping with a dagger and Human sacrifice under a full moon to your multi snake headed winged bat demon? sure, come on in, don't kill anyone here, stick around though, I'll give you a list of some likely candidates soon enough lemme tellya

We don't care, if you got a problem with other peoples beliefs and monotheistic/christian beliefs, it's YOUR problem, so the answer best have YOUR name on it

What is a "commercial" 12 step meeting? they last 60 seconds and have women mud wrestlers like a beer commercial or sumpin?

What is "your way" that works wonders? I have never heard of Jorvicks anonymous, but I hear Jorvick complaining a lot about Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and the monotheistic bias and intolerance, which quite frankly doesn't exist except in your head, and to reiterate for the 15th time I AM NO CHRISTIAN, NOR DO I BELIEVE IN A DEITY I KNOW WHAT IT IS I AM TALKING ABOUT

I repeat what Pink wrote since he summed it up so eloquently

I am not a fan of fundamentalist religion in AA, but I have no problem with the mention of God and such. I just think about my own HP and try and translate how I can strengthen my own spirituality in the same way but without the specific dogma that i don't personally believe in. So..."the God" thing is not a problem in AA unless you make it one.

-- Edited by LinBaba on Monday 1st of November 2010 03:39:43 PM

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

it was step 3 tonight. on one side of the room was the hardcore AAer (for whom i have much respect) who is agnostic. On teh other side was another hard core AAer (for whom I have as much respect) who is unashamedly born again Christian. and there was me, who's conception of a Higher Power is that there is one, it's bigger than the power of alcohol and it's not me.

now, who's right and who's wrong? We're all sober today, we've all been sober for several days at a time back to back, some more than others and some less. Were we dismissive or disrespectful toward each other? no we weren't, because there is room for all.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

The answer is in the Big Book, the Basic Text of Alcoholics Anonymous. let that be your guide. it's God as you understand it. for some the Higher Power is the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and their Bible is the Big book. for others, it's the God of their childhood and they use their Bible and the Big Book. But we ALL use the Big Book.
Whatever works is whatever works.

Jorvick · Veteran Member

Can't believe I let some of these resentments out, I lost control. Their are some other issues going on at mo but seeing and thinking like I did when I was drinking has brought some odd calmness tonight, admittedly helped by meeting tonight, plus got a sharer for Thurs.