If he does not believe in God then don't waste time with him.

Ouch! Maybe I am misinterpreting that but Ouch!

I try and avoid semantics and debate in AA - I like to and NEED to keep it simple but I find that claim a little unnerving.

I have a HP. (sometimes I use the word God)  I could not describe my HP at all really. He just IS. 
I know there is a power greater than myself - much greater. I have no wish to analyse it further. Maybe some day..........

God is a tricky word -I think acceptance/understanding of that word in the context it is meant can take time, I am extremely careful with it's use with newcomers/sponsees.

I accept and respect their beliefs and they accept and respect mine. Such a policy has never been a hindrance.

Attempting to force our beliefs about God confuses me in relation to the Preamble and our claim as a fellowship to be non-denominational. I have had a spiritual awakening.....simple.

I have read this thread three times today... ALL OF IT. And every time I have read it, I thought back to when I first read the 12 Steps. I wanted to quit drinking, but I wanted nothing to do with God. Then a close friend described the concept of a Higher Power and I thought I would give it a try.

My first meetings I went to I kept my walls very high, scared of that "God concept." And thankfully, no one pushed God on me. Then I found my first sponsor and he opened my eyes to the thought that this was the first time in my life that I could have my own Higher Power... one that I could create. And I started my journey.

I grew up in what appeared to be a very religious family and went to a private grade school. I learned about the God of the Bible and was abandoned by Him. Some folks told me that He didn't abandon me, but I abandoned Him. That is wrong because an eight year old doesn't abandon God. The God of the church wouldn't have allowed a priest to use me. A God of the church wouldn't have let me watch my dad hang himself and then be brought back to life, so he could use me the same way as a priest. A God of the Church wouldn't have allowed me to see my mom's eye's burned out with cigars or stabbed.

I say all this because if God was jammed down my throat when I first came into the program I would have left in a hurry. Thankfully AA is a spiritual program that lets its members find their own Higher Power... which in meetings I still refer to as a Higher Power.

Today, I am grateful to say that I have found a Higher Power that I can live with and more importantly can live with me and the reason it happened was because AA is a spiritual program.

-- Edited by Dave Harm on Sunday 17th of October 2010 08:25:56 PM

Jerry F wrote:

---

The God issue I was told by early sponsorship ought never be a stumbling block to
my sobriety and nor should I make it a stumbling block to any other person seeking
recovery.

Take for instance this offering by one of our members.


"In my neck of the woods there is a cult that gathers on the pagan holiday of the Sun God Ra that kneel at the foot of an ancient instrument of torture and consume ritualistic symbols of blood and flesh, and we allow them to attend our meetings without a murmer

Elsewhere they are known as Catholics"

Something said without prior thought from a center of self only, lacking in understanding
That religions often take the form of hard addictions similar to drug addiction with
consequences such that families are broken apart and lost completely for the sake
of the spiritual high and false righteousness.

The mentioned cult has indelible presence in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous
and may the membership never fail to be grateful for their participation and gifts.

Humbly.  

---

My Point was everyone, all religious and spiritual views are welcome in Alcoholics Anonymous, even if viewed from outside their practices may appear strange and even frightening to people who don't belong to their church/religious practice, no one was disparaging Catholics

SobrietySpell posted this the other day about the proper etiquette of responding to a thread


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*What has happened on this board before is that when someone starts a new thread, and someone else posts a reply, and then a third person comments on the second person's reply, and then the second person replies to the reply, and a 4th person responds to the 2nd person's reply to the 3rd person's reply to the second person's reply to the original post the original person's topic gets lost, and the 2nd and 3rd person argue about which of their replies is better, and then there is a general argument about the relevency of any of the replies, and then people take sides  and there is a big fight. 

So, we have come to deal with these with guidelines that are more like at a real meeting, with no 'cross talk'.  Everyone is entitled to put up their views in a reply, and people don't analyse their posts.  This is the main reason why you don't see much comment on posts you put up as replies to others, because the threads are not 'discussions' in a chat sense.* - Amanda2u2

Can we each stay with our own experience, strength & hope please. The truth in what we speak will be its own authority. We're not here to dissect each other. If I sense this is happening I will remove any further posts that are veering towards this nature. We can concentrate on keeping our own communication clean & clear of this. It is up to the op & anyone else to make what they will of what they read without any argument for bias. Please don't make me come in there! I respect you all & love to hear what any of you have to say about yourselves. In unity, recovery & service, Danielle x


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Thank you for your "humble" critique of me, my actions, and my motives and taking of my inventory but I respectfully ask that you refrain from doing so in the future

Thank You

 

John wrote:

---

To refer to any group of worshippers, regardless of the relgious alliance, rituals, customs, traditions or methods as a "cult" OR "pagans" does appear to begrade, belittle, and devalue their worth.

---

I guess so, if one doesn't know the actual dictionary definitions of these words, or chooses to take the negative connotations, or read what I wrote in context, my point again was ALL beliefs are welcome in an AA meeting, even though viewed from outside their rituals and practices may appear strange and frightening, that is one of AA's greatest assets

The sentence "there is a cult that gathers on the on the pagan holiday of the Sun God Ra that kneel at the foot of an ancient instrument of torture and consume ritualistic symbols of blood and flesh" is taken from a book where a Catholic History Professor is teaching his students about being open minded about other religions, he goes on to say: "and if any of you care to join me, come to the Harvard Chapel on Sunday, kneel beneath the crucifix, and take Holy Communion." Langdon winked "Open your minds my friends, we all fear what we don't understand."

Personally I am proud to be Pagan member of the Cult of AA and have been for 20 years



pagan [pegn]

n

1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a member of a group professing a polytheistic religion or any religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam

2. a person without any religion; heathen

adj

1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) of or relating to pagans or their faith or worship

2. heathen; irreligious

[from Church Latin pgnus civilian (hence, not a soldier of Christ), from Latin: countryman, villager, from pgus village]

cult

noun, often attributive \klt\

Definition of CULT

1

: formal religious veneration

2

: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3

: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4

: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

5

a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Father Dowling truly was a wonderful man and I venerate his teachings and what he taught Bill, He had a great hand in the writing of the 12 and 12 and to me his input was indispensible to AA, Henrietta Seiberling who put Bill in touch with Bob was a member of The Oxford Group, a cult by any definition of Christians who practiced first century Christianity, that is where we got steps 3-12

Personally I find any religion that kills and tortures in the name of God a bit "spurious" and "unorthodox" much less tying people to a stake and lighting them on fire in the name of their God, who preaches Love, that is a bit of an oxymoron to me, but you will NEVER hear me bringing that up in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous or insisting that anyone believe as I do, it's right there in our Traditions

Once again my point was in AA we are ALL allowed to have our own concept of God, it's one of the foundations of AA, even if we don't agree what that concept is, we don't even QUESTION anyone else's concept of a "Power Greater then Yourself"

It's written right there in our "Constitution" repeatedly with "God as we understand him" and "Why don't you choose your own concept of God"

I don't HAVE to get "your God" or to have anyone else's concept of God to be in AA or refer to The Big Book, It's my "God Given" right to have my own concept of a Power greater then myself

That's just how that is and the book is VERY clear about that so if someone writes:

gonee wrote:

---

The AA book talks about God all the time and if we do not want to use it to find Him, then we must be honest and discard it and not make partial reference to it.

---

I am going to point out what that book actually says which is:

.If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him.

The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles.

When dealing with such a person, you had better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused.

***Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.***

-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 01:36:49 PM

Dave Harm wrote:

---

I don't understand why I need dictionary means or quotes from professors or even the Big Book when simple common sense says that some things are naturally respected... a persons faith to me is one of those things. I have had more then my share of headaches from organized religions but that is me... my views mean nothing to someone who follows that faith.

It serves me no purpose to throw things against the wall and hope something sticks.

I do not have to agree with a persons faith... but common courtesy which is part of a spiritual 12 Step Fellowship.. teaches me to respect their views as they will respect mine without the use of written words to prove my point.

---

AA split off from a group of fundamental Christians for this very reason, this very discussion, (among other reasons true) but one of the largest reasons was so Roman Catholics themselves could be members of AA since the Oxford Group was percieved to have "protestant leanings" even though it was literally "First Century Christianity" which was one of The Oxford's Groups earlier names.

AA splits from the Oxford Group

the majority of Cleveland contingent was Roman Catholic. And it was said the Catholic Church did not want its members participating in open confession. Clarence remembered that these Catholic members had been warned against confessing their sins, "One to another" without a confession to a priest. Clarence was told by these alcoholics that they were about to be excommunicated from their Roman Catholic Church if they continued to attend Oxford Group meetings.

In her book, Sister Ignatia: Angel of Alcoholics Anonymous, Mary C. Darrah wrote the following as to how these men were discouraged from attending the Oxford Group meetings:

"They returned home and told their parish priest that they had finally found the answer to their drinking problems at a meeting in Akron. But when the priest learned of the Alcoholic Squadron's alignment with the Oxford Group, he forbade the men to return because of the group's suspected Protestant overtones." (p. 31)

Each Wednesday, on the way back from the Akron meetings the "boys" would stop off for ice cream or coffee. They would engage in a critique of that night's meeting and what had transpired there. They expressed to Clarence, with growing concern that they may not be able to continue with going to the meetings due to their Church's objections. And they also feared that without the fellowship afforded to them at the weekly meetings, they might resume their drinking. Probably sooner than later.

This problem caused on-going discussion between Clarence and Doc. Clarence was insisting something had to be done. Doc, however, did not wish to be disrespectful to the very Oxford Group people who had saved his life and stated that nothing at all could, or would be done.

---

The next evening, while at Akron City Hospital, and after visiting with Abby, Clarence held yet another conversation with Doc about the Roman Catholic boys in the Cleveland contingent. Clarence related:

I says, "Doc you know these fellows can't come." I says, "They can't belong to an Oxford Group." I says, "We don't need all this folderol of the Oxford Group. We can eliminate a lot of this stuff. We have a book now with these Twelve Steps, and we have the Four Absolutes, and anyone can live with that." He says, "Well you can't do that,' he says, `you can't break this thing up."

I says, "We're not breaking anything up. All I'm interested in is something with more universality so that anybody can belong whether they have a religion or believe in anything or not. They can come." He says, "Well you can't do that." I says, "We're gonna do something."

And he says, "Like what?"

And I says, "Well we'll see like what!"

On the way back to Cleveland that night, Clarence and the Cleveland contingent stopped off for another of their critiques. Clarence informed them that Grace G. had offered them the use of her home as a meeting place. He then reviewed why they had to make a break with the Oxford Group so the Roman Catholic members could continue to attend and still stay on good terms with their church.

Clarence went on to say that since they had the book, the Twelve Steps, and even a name - the name from the book - they could do this. There was further discussion, some of it heated.

Even though a few of those present disagreed, the majority was for Clarence's idea. Lloyd T., Charlie J. and Bill J. were the most outspoken against Clarence's idea; and they refused to budge from their position. Even when the break did finally come, these three still considered themselves Oxford Group members. Yet all, except for Bill J., eventually left the Oxford Group and came into A.A.

On Wednesday, May 10, 1939, the Clevelander's went to the Oxford Group meeting at T. Henry and Clarace Williams' home. At the end of the meeting, Clarence announced that this would be "the last time the Cleveland contingent would be down to the Oxford Group as a whole."

He announced the Cleveland Group was going to meet the following night, May 11^th. He said, "We're gonna start our own group in Cleveland." He told the Akron fellowship, "This is not gonna be an Oxford Group. It's gonna be known as Alcoholics Anonymous. We're taking the name from the book; and only alcoholics and their families are welcome. Nobody else." He then told all present where the new group - the Alcoholics Anonymous meeting - was going to meet. Clarence announced "We're gonna meet at 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights at Al and Grace G.'s home."

Doc stood up and said, "You can't do this."

Clarence replied, "There's nothing to talk about."

The meeting almost turned into a riot as the Cleveland Group got up as a whole and walked out. But not as much of a riot as the one which occurred the next day in Cleveland.

 

The Next Day the first ever meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous" was held in Cleveland Ohio

 

On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had been published, a meeting was held. It was a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. It was a meeting held by, and for alcoholics and their families only. Historian, Mary C. Darrah, wrote:

"In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings provided a group experience for the early alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate group officially named Alcoholics Anonymous until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in Cleveland."

Nell Wing* stated in an interview with the author: "Clarence was rightly the first to use the initials, A.A." She was, however, referring to Clarence's use of the initials "A.A." and not to his use of the name Alcoholics Anonymous.

* Secretary of Bill Wilson from 1947 to Bill's death in 1971, and A.A.'s first Archivist

A fellowship of anonymous drunks had in fact existed prior to May 11, 1939. But it was the Cleveland meeting which first used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, that it took from the book. Cleveland's May, 1939 meeting is the first documented meeting which used the name Alcoholics Anonymous, separate and apart from the Oxford Group.

According to the records of the Cleveland Central Committee's Recording Statistician, Norman E. (which were compiled in the middle of June 1942) the following took place:

On 5/10/39, nine members left the Akron meeting of the Oxford Group to form the G. group. The location of the group was 2345 Stillman Road, Cleveland Heights, Cleveland, Ohio. The sponsors of the group were; Clarence Snyder, Al G., Geo. J. McD., John D., Dr. Harry N., Lee L., Vaughn P., Chas. J., and Lloyd T. The first secretary of the group was Clarence Snyder.

 

The first A.A. meeting in the world was not uneventful. According to Clarence, the entire group from Akron showed up the next night and tried to "discourage" the Cleveland meeting from happening. Discourage was a very mild term, according to Clarence; and he used it sarcastically. He said:

"The whole group descended upon us and tried to break up our meeting. One guy was gonna whip me. I want you to know that this was all done in pure Christian love.. A.A. started in riots. It rose in riots."

Clarence was often quoted as saying, "If you don't stand for something, you're liable to fall for anything." And on May 11, 1939, Clarence stood his ground, as did the other members of that first A.A. group. Thus A.A., as such, began in Cleveland, Ohio.

So this is by no means a new conversation, nor has it ever been one free of controversy, but the "Religious Freedom" aspect of AA is what saved my life, and like Clarence, who also "invented" sponsorship, I will stand and fight for what I believe is important

The AA Organization "Hospitals and Institutions" that takes meetings into jails and medical facilities was also founded with a fistfight, in the parking lot of San Quentin, I was friends with a few alcoholics who were there during my tenure in "H and I"


This Religious Freedom we have in AA was the result of many men and women standing for what they believed in, no matter what, not the result of "common sense" which seems to go out the window in discussions involving religion or politics

I leave you with

A.A. started in riots. It rose in riots.

All of our freedoms in AA were dearly earned, by people who believed in what they were doing and weren't afraid to stand up for it

 

-- Edited by LinBaba on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 08:10:31 PM