I'm new here. I chose this forum so that I could discuss something that has been weighing on my mind. It involves someone else and it is her anonymity that I would like to protect. If I were to discuss this with people I know it would be obvious who I was talking about.
I've been in recovery almost 8 years. I went out on a one night fling almost 2 years ago when my wife and I separated, and have since re-dedicated myself to my sobriety. Things are pretty great now, and I have grown a lot.
A few months ago someone new started attending my home group. We hit it off right from the start. Sometimes we would have a smoke together before or after meetings and chat a little, but that was the extent of our relationship. I knew that I was attracted to her and that it would be inappropriate for me to act on those feelings so I kept my distance. I never sat at her table (at least not on purpose) and made sure to make time for my other aa friends. As the weeks past we got to know each other a little better and I began to realize that she looked forward to seeing me, maybe as much as I looked forward to seeing her. I felt as though the connection between us that I had sensed from the beginning might be more than just my imagination. Then something happened. A few weeks ago, after a meeting we were chatting a bit with a couple of other drunks outside the church. I was going to drive a couple guys home and when it was time for me to leave she hugged me not once, but twice. They weren't the usual friendly kind either, but the kind that stick with you for a while. Also she was looking at me like I was made of chocolate. Then, as I was walking to the car, she snuck up behind me and squeezed my hand a little, and kind of ran away home. Wow! After spinning for a good 24 hours (I could barely drive!) I decided that I should call her. I had never spoken to her outside of meetings before, but since her number was on the members list I figured it would be ok. I was as nervous as a school boy. Anyway, it didn't work out. The number wasn't current, and I didn't get to speak to her until the next meeting. She was there when I arrived and I'm pretty sure she was waiting for me. I told her that I had tried to call, and she immediately gave me her correct number. She told me that she thought about calling me too, to see if I would be there that night. I invited her and her little daughter to my house for supper with me and my kids. It seemed like an appropriate next step. A fews days later she came over for dinner. The kids were busy, to say the least and it was a bit hectic, but we managed to sneak away for a few minutes for a smoke. She opened up to me a little then, and shared a little about her relationship with her daughter's father, that it had been based on loneliness. It wasn't anything earth-shattering, but it was most personal thing she had shared with me so far. When it was time to drive her home she made a point of inviting me in to see her apartment, and we sat on the couch for a few minutes and chatted. She told me that she was a 'relationship freak' and that she had always needed to be in a relationship. Then we hugged. It was long and kind of intimate and the she broke off saying "You'd better go..." I don't pretend to read minds anymore but I would bet a week's pay that she was thinking "You'd better go before...". All of this got me thinking really hard and I realized that I loved her. I already knew that I was in love with her, since we first met actually, but this was different. More than anything in the world I wanted her to heal her heart and learn to love herself. I wanted her just to be happy, and that happiness didn't have to necessarily involve me. My love for my kids is something like this, but this kind of selflessness with someone I am so attracted to is a new experience for me. I have tried to manipulate women since I was 6 at least, and I had resolved to try to get things right the next time, if there was a next time, but I still have doubts and wonder if I'm not fooling myself. Maybe this unconditional love is just some more elaborate scheme to control things. I know that if I were to hurt her in any way I would hate myself, and it's only been a little while since I've begun to like myself. The solution I came up with was just to be her friend, as much or as little as she wanted. She deserved a chance to not be in a relationship and to work on herself. I could be supportive, if she wanted that, but I would have no expectations. Nor would I try to be her main support, or to rescue her. Then, I thought, I would wait until she was sober for a year or so and re-evaluate. I definitely feel that she is worth waiting for. I'm not being a martyr. Now comes the sad part. After I had sorted out my feelings I wanted to share them with her - in person. I texted her and she wrote back that she didn't think it was a good idea for me to visit because she had started drinking again. She said she was avoiding all voices of reason, and was planning to drink again that evening. She said that she was running. She didn't know where, only that she couldn't stick around. I told her briefly how I felt about her, that I thought she was really great, and that I wanted her to be happy and to love herself. She said that was a tall order. I kept the conversation going for a bit in case she might decide to reach out to me, but it didn't seem likely so I let her go. I sent 2 more texts over the next couple of days just to say that I missed her and hoped she was ok. In the final one I told her that I wouldn't bother her anymore, but that she could always call me if she wanted to. Now I am working on letting go. I don't know why she went out. It could have been many things, or a combination of things. When I last saw her at her apartment she had suggested future dinners (dates?) so I don't think I'm the reason, although she might have been frightened by our growing closeness. I tried my best to be considerate and appropriate but it still nags at me that I might have done wrong somehow. I let her sponsor know that she had gone out (she already knew), with one other lady member of my group that she was close to, and discussed this with my sponsor. After that I shut up about it. I desperately want to help her but I know I can't, and shouldn't try. I'm not going to enter a romantic relationship with an unhealthy individual, but it's still too soon to give up hope for the future. It may be that her affection for me was something else, expressed romantically. I don't know, and I don't need to know right now. I just know that I love her, no matter what. I finally learned what it's like to actually love someone else, and now she's gone. God is a smartass.
There are a few details that I left out of my story that are might be relevant, but to me are ultimately unimportant. She is 29 and beautiful. I am 50 and not. She is not strictly heterosexual, I don't know to what degree. She had 3 months of sobriety. I have 8 years (if one doesn't count my slip when my marriage ended. I do count it, so I actually have 2 years since then). And just in case things weren't difficult enough, before we stopped talking I learned that she has some rare disease where her immune system wants to eat her joints and organs. I don't know the prognosis. In spite of everything I've said so far I still have hope that somehow we can still have some kind of relationship. I'm pretty open-minded about what that might look like, and I think I could be happy just to be her friend. We actually have a lot in common. More than my ex and I ever did. I could really use some feedback on all of this. Tell me I'm crazy. Tell me I'm full of BS. Whatever. I'm starting to trust my judgement more these days, but it's always good to hear other points of view.
I don't see how you could "love" her already, but for argument's sake, let's say you do. She has already admitted she is a "relationship freak", which I assume means that she has a tendency to get into them way too fast and too deep for her own good. She is also drinking now. How is your getting close to her, given the way you feel, going to help her?
Love is a strong word. I think infatuated is a better term and I am not putting you down here because infatuation is normal. Acting on the infatuation is a choice. It does sound like you have had some sound reasoning on why you shouldn't be involved with this woman but your heart (and perhaps other parts) are not in agreement with your head. In those cases I was told to walk away and leave it alone..."When your heart and your head are not in synch with something or someone"...walk away. I have not always done that but I am not perfect either so...Back to you....Now that she has relapsed I think it's even more clear that you need to give up on her. She would fit the category of "Toxic" for you now and trying to 12th step someone you are infatuated with would be giving away any bit of sanity and serenity you have left.
So, I agree you should pray on the matter and look for God's guidance. However, you asked us for advice/suggestions so here goes (knowing full well I am not God):
I would investigate to yourself, how much you are really over your last relationship. Do some sort of inventory of what your romantic relationships have been like in the last 2 years since your separation. Assess whether you are ready for a relationship and what you have to bring to the table and what you are really looking for in a compatible female. This way you won't get so blindsided by the next girl that flirts with you who is not really a good long term choice. I don't care if you are 50 and she is 29...you would be far happier with a stable 40 year old than a trainwrecked 29 year old. Also, based on your 1 admitted relapse being over a relationship issue, I would be SUPER careful here. Lastly, it was always my pattern to look for emotionally unavailable people that I could either fix or change. I have only recently (through some work in Coda, but also just working the steps) realized that a good relationship is when you meet someone and are just amazed and don't want to change a damn thing about them, don't really want to "help" them become anything, because you think they are the bomb just the way they are. Think about that. Be patient, be as whole as you can be, and seriously start looking for partners that have more to offer you on various levels.
Mark
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Hi, " After spinning for a good 24 hours (I could barely drive!) " When I read that comment it reminded me of what some old timers told me. There is a big difference between being in "Love" and being in " Heat " It was up to me to figure out what they meant. Something about fearless and thorough. Good Luck !!!! Toad
I get so upset with folks at meetings that use it as a dating service. To me, it should be "hands off" for at least two years with a newcomer. They are extremely vulnerable and in my opinion any "hitting" on that person can be seen as being a predator.
Where I go I saw an extremely intelligent lady in her 30s who could not stay sober for longer then two years... and every new guy that appeared at meetings she became attached to them. Soon the guy would disappear and she would have a slip.
And I seen it the other way. one meeting I go to is an open meeting with both AA and Alanon. there was one couple there who I really enjoyed. They seemed like the perfect married couple. And they were until a new lady appeared and the husband in a span of six months left his wife and moved in with this other gal.
To me, the worst thing one person can do to a newcomer is to try and be more then just friends. Let them work on their recovery and their own codependent issues...
I have seen some wonderful relationships formed through AA... but those folks all had some serious times in recovery and they were both working their programs as individuals...
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"A busy mind is a sick mind. A slow mind, is a healthy mind. A still mind, is a divine mind." - Native American Centerness
Hi everyone. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and to answer it. I would like to answer each of you in turn.
To The Sword: Thank you. I have, and I am continuing to do so. I think my higher power is teaching me a lesson by showing me what love is, and then taking away the object of my affection. Now I have to practice what I have learned. It makes me sad, but I'm not fighting it.
To Lexie: I think that not only do I love her, but that this experience has shown me how to love others too. It has cleared away some of the lingering resentments that I had toward my ex for example. It is much easier to love her when I admit that her only fault was not living up to my expectations. As for helping my friend, it was the "relationship freak" comment that made me step back and start thinking about this in a new way. It made me realize that her happiness was more important than my desire for a relationship with her. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post. After that it became obvious that trying to draw her into a relationship would be the most unloving thing that I could do. I made absolutely no demands on her after that point. I didn't even suggest that she should call her sponsor, because I knew that she already knew that. She didn't want my help and I respected her wishes. I only told her that I hoped she could learn to be happy and to love herself.
To pinkchip: I agree, Love is a strong word, but not a dangerous one. If I had not made some small step in her direction I would have always regretted it. I'll admit to some level of infatuation too. I was aware of it. These kind of feelings are normal, and I have no apology for them. As far as I can tell, I acted carefully and appropriately. I certainly had no intention of jeopardizing her sobriety. It's possible that my infatuation might have prevented me from seeing how fragile that sobriety was, but I don't think I could have known that at the time anyway. It is something to think about though. I definitely didn't put her on a pedestal. I knew she had her own defects of character as we all do, but I chose to see her better qualities. Her dreams, for example, inspire me. As I said in my post I'm working on letting go of her. I'm sad, and I think that's to be expected, but I'm not trying to fight against the current of life. I'm still going to hang on to a little piece of hope that one day I will see her joyous and happy and free. As for my program, I don't think it has ever been stronger. I have no intention of getting into another toxic relationship with anyone ever again. My boundaries are pretty clear in that regard. I also have no desire to 12th step her (or 13th step her). I'm definitely not the right person for the job. As for previous relationships, I have had none since my separation. I took the first year off entirely, and most of the second. It's only lately that I have felt that I might be capable of one. I got a lot of insight from my inventories. I know the pattern and that I had always tried to control and manipulate women. This time I did things differently. That's my big breakthrough. Again, you do make a good point about choosing emotionally unavailable people, although I'm not in the fix it business anymore. The only other person that has sparked my interest since my separation is a 52 yo woman who lives some 200 miles from me who I've never even spoken to! I sure can pick'em.
To Toad: I think it's pretty human to get excited at the prospect of a new love affair, but I know wht you mean. I'm not responsible for my feelings, only for my actions. Thanks, though.
To: happycamper: I already gave her to God. I just hope he gives her back.
hmmm..thats a tough one. I mean, I suppose meeting someone new is a good thing. As long as its not at a bar. Maybe you should let her be cause it doesn't seem like she wants to help herself, and you definately don't want old habits to kick back if the other person doesn't support. I'm in the same situation as you. Not relationship wise, but my friends like to go to bars, and a lot of them don't understand how important this is to me. If they can't support you, then let them go.
Second paragraph on page 119 of the "12 Steps and 12 Traditions" says a lot. Here's a little bit of it...
"It is only where "boy meets girl on AA campus" and love follows at first sight, that difficulties may develop. The prospective partners need to be solid AA's and long enough acquainted to know that their compatibility at spiritual, mental, and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful thinking. They need to be as sure as possible that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either will be likely to rise up under later pressures to cripple them."
Hi, Nice that you responded to the folks that replied. Sounds like you have done the footwork. I agree, LOVE is very good. I know also that good recovery involves some risks. Something about "Progress rather than Perfection ". Toad
You might take this experience to mean you are ready for some companionship again. To avoid it coming from the rooms...Maybe try Eharmony or Match.com. Go on some dates. Improve your self image. You wrote that you are 50 and not attractive. You need to shift that mindset to being 50 and fabulous if you really want to enjoy dating and romance again. Part of writing a profile of that kind is therapeutic in my opinion....Even if nothing amounts from it, you will get a better idea of what you are putting on the table, what you are looking for and you will meet some interesting women...Just a thought.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
I like pinkchips suggestion....fwiw I'm nearly 50 .... i was skiing with a beautiful and intelligent young woman last spring ...I met her on an avy certification course....the things we did together we did because we enjoyed the activity...when she smiled I knew it was because she was happy in the snow...wasn't about me....
the few times in my life I have 'loved', it has been a profound sense of humility and a desire to simply behold the person in my heart and interfere in no way with them....love of that sort just seems to be...a state of being...and inseparable from God...
But then you have to come down off the mountain and back to the everyday world...me personally would avoid relationships with the opposite sex that start at a meeting.....you know if you're out in the world doing something you love, and you meet someone that happens to be in AA...well that's different isn't it?
Find things you love to do in solitude with God as well as others and make yourself available is my advice....unlike most free advice, which is free because I'm not using it, this has been advice i practice, lol....