Not sure I "belong" here.

EMx2 · Newbie

Not sure I "belong" here.

gonee · MIP Old Timer

Nobody is asked anything in AA. It is we who have to admit to something. "The only requirement is for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." If you want to cut back your drinking, you do not need AA for that. On pg 20 of the AA book, three types of drinkers are discussed.
The first is the MODERATE drinker. They can stop if they have a good reason to do so.
The second is the HARD DRINKER. They can also stop or moderate if they have a good reason to do so.
The third is REAL ALCOHOLIC. They may start off as moderate drinkers, may become a hard drinker, but at some stage of the drinking career begins to lose all control of consumption once they start.
My suggestion is for you to get a copy of the AA book and read through it and make a proper diagnosis for yourself. DO NOT rely on other people's opinion. Even medical people with all due to respect to them do not understand the disease of alcoholism. I have heard some of the craziest definitions, even in AA.
On pg 34 of the AA book a suggestion is given to those whom may be doubtful. Try stopping drinking for a year. Also pg 44" If, when you honestly want to, you find cannot quit entirely, OR
if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic."
You might be a moderate drinker who has a problem with alcohol. My first 5 years of drinking were like that. If I knew what I know now about alcoholism, I would have stopped altogether or become a moderate drinker. My son is like that. He stopped. He changed his bad habits and replaced them with good ones. He is potential alcoholic, though because I saw the symptoms of withdrawals.
Given a period of time with more alcohol, every one has the potential to become a full blown alcoholic. If we cannot stop with medical intervention and rehabilitation, then chances are we beyond help.
AA IS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE POWERLESS OVER ALCOHOL.

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Wow, lots there. First off, you don't have to declare yourself an alcoholic to go to an AA meeting and learn more about alcoholism - get out a phone book, call the AA hotline in your area and ask for "Open meetings", which are open to anyone interested in the disease of alcoholism.

Secondly, the fact that your husband is resistant to the idea of YOU quitting drinking is a bit of a warning sign - the fact that your drinking is in some way important to him may signal that he might also be having a bit of a problem (it's quite common for people to seek out others who drink like they do. My wife is also in the program now.)

Third, many of us are VERY GOOD at hiding our drinking. For myself, I never had anyone suggest that I cut down or quit drinking, and very rarely missed any work.

Someone posted some questions in another thread called "Should I quit drinking?"

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42735&p=3&topicID=37230800

That might help you, although I know for myself, I saw those questions while still drinking and was able to rationalize myself out of them and deny that I had a problem. I remember saying "The person who made up these questions doesn't really know me so how could they possibly know if I'm an alcoholic or not? I know myself and I know I'm not."

Anyway, best suggestion I can give you is to attend a meeting or two and listen to see if you can spot any similarities between you and others there. Only you can decide whether you need to cut down or stop. If the idea of quitting altogether is too scary, remember we don't swear off alcohol. We just don't drink today. No guarantees about tomorrow.

Good luck!

-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Wednesday 28th of July 2010 04:43:30 PM

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

LARRY!!!! copy & paste the quiz again!

Peace,
Rob

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

EM

Welcome!!

If you are wondering if you are an alcoholic then take this test which was developed by Johns Hopkins University Hospital, Baltimore, MD.

If you answered the questions honestly and you may find out if you are or are not.

If you are one of us AA works best for most.

Larry,
-----------------
A person that is not an Alcoholic,doesn't lay awake at 4 am wondering if they are an Alcoholic

---------------
20 Questions

Take this 20 question test to help you decide whether or not you are an alcoholic.

Answer YES or NO to the following questions.

1. Do you lose time from work due to drinking?
YES __ NO __

2. Is drinking making your home life unhappy?
YES __ NO __

3. Do you drink because you are shy with other people?
YES __ NO __

4. Is your drinking affecting your reputation?
YES __ NO __

5. Have you ever felt remorse after drinking?
YES __ NO __

6. Have you ever got into financial difficulties as a result of drinking?
YES __ NO __

7. Do you turn to lower companions and an inferior environment when drinking?
YES __ NO __

8. Does your drinking make you careless of your familys welfare?
YES __ NO __

9. Has your ambition decreased since drinking?
YES __ NO __

10. Do you crave a drink at a definite time?
YES __ NO __

11. Do you want a drink the next morning?
YES __ NO __

12. Does drinking cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
YES __ NO __

13. Has your efficiency decreased since drinking?
YES __ NO __

14. Is drinking jeopardizing your job or business?
YES __ NO __

15. Do you drink to escape from worries or trouble?
YES __ NO __

16. Do you drink alone?
YES __ NO __

17. Have you ever had a complete loss of memory as a result of drinking?
YES __ NO __

18. Has your physician ever treated you for drinking?
YES __ NO __

19. Do you drink to build up your self-confidence?
YES __ NO __

20. Have you ever been to a hospital or institution because of drinking?
YES __ NO __

What's your score?

If you have answered YES to any one of the questions, there is a definite warning that you may be an alcoholic.

If you have answered YES to any two, the chances are that you are an alcoholic.

If you answered YES to three or more, you are definitely an alcoholic.

(The test questions are used at Johns Hopkins University Hospital, Baltimore, MD, in deciding whether or not a patient is an alcoholic).

jluvs2day · Member

Hi, your story sounds very similar to mine. I questioned whether I had a problem for several years before I had the courage to confront it. I still remember the feeling of waking up full of despair, and questioning why I finished the bottle of wine last night. I didn't quit for a long time because I was afraid of what it would do to my relationship with my husband. We were long time drinking buddies, and I was afraid if I quit, it would affect our relationship. I've been sober for 11.5 months now, and although it has not been an easy journey, the questions of wondering if I was an alcoholic are gone. After sitting through many meetings and working with my sponsor, it became crystal clear that I was an alcoholic. And, I too said that my kids weren't affected because I always gave them the best of me, even when I was drinking. However, after I was sober for awhile I saw that this was not true, and I struggle with regret over why I didn't quit sooner. But, the big book says we will not regret the past. I hope you listen to your doubts and try some meetings. The peace you will feel is so worth the work. God bless.

Mike B. · MIP Old Timer

Welcome EM. Some good experience already posted above. I'm a firm believer that no one gets here by accident. Social drinkers aren't concerned with whether there is a problem or not. When we start to ask ourselves these questions it's a sign. (Just my opinion- from experience)

Your at a very similiar cross road that many of us have been at. Is drinking a problem, what would I do with out it, what would others think, I'm functioning, my kids aren't effected etc.....? From my experience; I took the road to do more research. I found out the answers after I got honest with myself and the pain to continue was to much to carry. The wreckage I accumulated mounted and I lost myself.

The good thing is- if you decide that your one of us, there's a program of action that can change the person you are today. A life with new freedom and a new happiness. I'm grateful today for this program, it saved my life.

McGowdog · Veteran Member

EMx2 wrote:

Hi,

First off, from the tiny bit that I know of AA, I'm pretty sure that you kind folks will be quick to reassure me that everyone belongs here, and I do appreciate the openheartedness.

EM

Hmmm. I guess I'm different. I belong to a closed A.A. meeting and I got 12-stepped before they would let me attend the group. I moved to Southern Colorado where we started a new Closed A.A. group that is very similar. We try to help you qualify and if you're not alcoholic, we recommend that you don't join.

If you can control the amount once you start, do it. If you can control the start or stay away from the first drink based on need, want, desire, etc., do it. If you can control your intake or abstain based on any kind of rational thought, human aid, solemn oath, etc., then do it.

Being an alcoholic is a matter of control. I cannot control the amount I drink once I start and I cannot recall the suffering and humiliation of even a week ago, and I start drinking again with impunity thinking that this time I'm going to be ok. I'm going to be able to control my drinking.

I wouldn't come to A.A. to just check it out. As you can see, you'll run into people who will hustle you in and not give you the dignity to find out for yourself if you're alcoholic or not. You may just be a hard drinker who has not crossed the line. Woudn't that be nice? Hard drinkers can drink! They can even get drunk! Unfortunately, they can get hurt, in trouble, and die too. But, given a sufficiently strong reason, they can stop or moderate their drinking when they really really want to.

Even if you are an alcoholic, you have to want to do something about it. No one can coerce you into fully engaging in any recovery program, including A.A. You can be sentenced to A.A. through the courts. But that just gets you to meetings. A.A. meetings don't keep you sober.... if you're a real alcoholic. Doing the spiritual program of action as outlined by the book Alcoholics Anonymous will result in you not wanting to drink booze. That, and give you a whole toolbox full of spiritual principles to practice and enjoy.

But Alcoholics Anonymous is for alcoholics. It would be nice if you could find a couple of real alcoholics to talk to who can take you through the first 53 pages of that A.A. book and help you find out for yourself it you are even alcoholic or not. It would be a shame for you to come to the wrong conclusion.

EMx2 · Newbie

Thanks, everyone. I chose not to drink last night and was completely fine... we'll see how I do when there's social pressure, but after reading all of your posts and lots of AA info available online I am more convinced that I fall into the "bad habit drinker" category than the "alcoholic" category. I am thankful!!! The struggles that you all have endured are incredible, and I admire you.

EM

Danielle72 · Member

Lots of fabulous responses to this. For me, it was hard to realize I was an alcoholic, or admit to it, was because I haven't had run-ins with the law, my kids were taken care of, we live in a nice house, bills get paid. I sobered up 10 years ago, for the first time. Then I went back out again, and was able to control my drinking very well. I figured I wasn't an alcoholic. In the past year, since the death of my mother, my drinking has been RAPIDLY spiraling downward. But still, not causing me the "life problems" I saw in others. Until I got honest with myself. If it weren't causing me problems, I guess I wouldn't have started wondering and researching. I guess for me, feeling foggy in the morning, puting my 2 year old in preschool so I wouldn't have to deal with him every day that was a little hungover...all of that made me decide that I was powerless. I couldn't quit. I can quit after a couple of drinks sometimes. But usually not. So, I'm not saying you are an alcoholic, I'm just saying what it's been like for me. A big eye opener for me was, if one of my kids needed to go to the emergency room, would be able to legally drive them there? Most nights for me, no. Granted it's a hypothetical, but it is something that could easily come to pass.

barisax · Senior Member

Your situation sounds a lot like mine when I first came to AA. I had a good job, I had the wife and family and a roof over my head. I had never lost anything due to drinking, I felt I was happily married. I had never gotten a DUI, or gotten in trouble with the law. I had been able to control my drinking over the years precisely to avoid those troubles, and I felt this proved I was not an alcoholic. Also my agenda for coming to AA was like yours, one of wanting to cut back. I wanted to roll back my drinking 10 years or so, to where I drank less, less often, in general had the feeling of more control.

What I found out relatively quickly in meetings and from reading the Big Book is that non-alcoholics don't obsess about their drinking, how much, cutting back, controlling it, justifying it, etc. If I rewound the tape far enough, I could see that the mental obsession with alcohol began from the very first moment I felt its effects.

I *still* have the mental obsession with alcohol, even though I've been sober a while. It doesn't mean I agonize day by day or minute by minute whether or not to take a drink - fortunately that left me fairly early on. But it means I notice alcohol in all its settings, I can fantasize about it, I have dreams about it - either that I'm drinking, that I just drank, or that I've been drinking all along and conveniently "forgetting" the fact (my most common dream). That I think qualifies as a mental obsession with alcohol.

As to whether or not you are ready, that's up to you. I suggest going to some meetings, listen to the stories. See if you don't meet yourself. Go to enough meetings, and you will hear every part of your story told by various people. I don't need convincing that I'm an alcoholic, but I *do* need reminders, and going to meetings is how I get them. I don't have the luxury of forgetting what I am. Too much is at stake. I've gone to meetings, and stayed sober. My life today is great and more than I could have ever dreamed of. Must be a connection - I figure if I keep doing what I'm doing, I'll keep getting what I got. That's true of drinking as well. I know where it leads, because too many of my friends have shown me.

Barisax

barisax · Senior Member

I just did the 20 questions as of the time I came to my first meeting and scored an 11 easily. And I imagine had I continued, I would have been looking at 15 very shortly. My drinking hadn't affected my job or my financial situation *yet*.

I don't remember exactly which questions I answered yes to back then, but even so I probably picked at least 7 or 8 thinking ok, less than 50% not an alcholic right? Then I read the phrases at the bottom....

Barisax

JW · Member

>>

Hi There,

Not everyone belongs in A.A. Some well-meaning members might try to talk a newcomer into believing that, but don't let anyone talk you into alcoholism. It is important that you find out for yourself. Alcoholics belong in A.A., and if you have alcoholism, you belong in A.A.

A few simple questions:

1. When you drink, do you lose control of the amount you drink? Does it go the way you planned? If that happens to you, don't give up your seat. It doesn't happen to you, you don't belong in A.A.

2. When there is a necessity, can you stop or moderate your drinking? Can you decide to stop drinking and stay stopped?

Lexie · Senior Member

Um,

My impression is that the only requirement for membership in AA is a DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING.

Nothing in there about being a "real" alcoholic as opposed to a heavy drinker with physical, mental, and emotional dependency who desperately wants to stop drinking.

AA isn't some exclusive club that you have to qualify for. There's no membership committee, last time I checked. Maybe only the "real" alcoholics HAVE to rely on AA to recover, but it sure has made MY recovery a lot smoother and more pleasant.

McGowdog · Veteran Member

Welcome JW!

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

The stuff about being "a real" alcoholic is in chapter 2 of the big book. And it does say in step 1 "we admitted we were powerless over alcohol...." So, if you believe you have the willpower to truly control your drinking...I would say AA is probably not for you, though you are certainly welcome to attend open meetings until you figure it out. Even closed meetings are "for those who think they have a problem with alcohol" which you do seem to think. It's never "overkill" to get help for something that is a problem for you...even if you are at a point of being a "high bottom" drunk. You get to decide when enough is enough.

SUSIE · Senior Member

I am also a bad habit drinker.........alcoholic,,,,just sayin.... To control my drinking is just excersizing a character defect im trying to over come. Control freak.

-- Edited by SUSIE on Friday 30th of July 2010 07:48:07 AM

barisax · Senior Member

Alcoholism is progressive. My drinking progressed through several stages although I'm certain the mental obsession with alcohol was there from the beginning, maybe even before the beginning. The stage I had progressed to at the time I came to AA was less relevant than the progression itself. The progression was clear to me at the time. Our experience is that left untreated, alcoholism progresses - it gets worse, never better, as long as you continue to drink. If I had any doubts at all even after the mental obsession part, the obvious progression in my drinking was the capper.

And I still enjoyed my drinking. I just didn't enjoy anything else anymore. I remember a few times in my early sobriety, I'd think dang, I wasn't THAT bad, I could have gotten a few more years of drinking in. Yep, I could have had a few more years of not enjoying anything else, and drinking becoming more and more the center of my life. I wonder what would have been left after those few extra years, or if I would have had another moment of clarity or reasonableness to get sober. The truth is, there was nothing really special about my last drunk, it was like a thousand others. My bottom wasn't a black hole, but an ever-deepening rut carved out by my own footsteps. Maybe realizing that was more scary to me than falling into a black hole, I dunno. Then again, maybe black holes are carved out one footstep at a time. But the door opened, an escape hatch from the rut. I put a foot through it. That may have been my one and only chance. I may not get another chance, and I pray I don't need one.

Barisax

McGowdog · Veteran Member

I understand what people are getting at. Better safe than sorry.

But look at the opening line of the OP;

"First off, from the tiny bit that I know of AA, I'm pretty sure that you kind folks will be quick to reassure me that everyone belongs here, and I do appreciate the openheartedness.
"
So, to say that everyone belongs here is what I'm asked to consider. I'm asked to consider if I'm here... every year that I do a set of steps. Maybe I'm an alcoholic. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I was a situational drinker. Maybe once my situation is smoothed out, I can drink normally. Maybe I was an emotional drinker. My emotions were a mess. I just lost my wife, the house, the puppies, the job, I got the job, family died, etc. Now that my emotions are in check, I can drink normally. What about... two drinks, every day, no more and no less, for 30 days? Can I do that?

The path of consideration drives me further into whether I'm alcoholic or not. If I get a stronger realization of Truth, that thrust me further into seeking God.

A.A. ain't the only show in town. For alcoholics, I think it's the best show... for a buck or two. But that's my opinion. I can show you some folks who beg to differ. I will not, but just sayin'.

Now, when it comes to the 3rd Tradition, I'm going Long Form;

3. Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

Now, we can look at open and closed A.A. meetings and look at the blue card. Given the autonomy of A.A. meetings, we can find meetings where you can be a non-alcoholic and share meetings, lead meetings, etc. But in some meetings, alanons and addicts can come to the meeting, but are encouraged to listen and not share. Those that DO share are encouraged to be alcoholics with a desire to stop drinking and to confine their shares to alcohol or the recovery thereof.

If anything I say cannot be reconciled with the 164 of the book Alcoholics Anonymous or the 12 Traditions in their long form, I'm wrong. In my group, we don't use the 12 x 12, the stories in the back or the pamphlets. We don't trust our trusted servants anymore. I trust "He Sold Himself Short" and Dr Bob's story, but I couldn't get them voted into our group conscience.

All meetings/groups are autonomous. We have the right to do things different.

I would love to think the A.A. program, steps, traditions, concepts, etc. would be embraced by the world and useful to all. I really would. But what if the OP isn't alcoholic and can control and enjoy her drinking? There's still that possibility. If she can't, I hope she realizes that she has a seat waiting for her. I just say, "Have the dignity to find out for yourself." We have no clue what her truth is. She may be in denial. She may not be. Only she knows.

JW · Member

Lexie wrote:

Um,

My impression is that the only requirement for membership in AA is a DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING.

Nothing in there about being a "real" alcoholic as opposed to a heavy drinker with physical, mental, and emotional dependency who desperately wants to stop drinking.

AA isn't some exclusive club that you have to qualify for. There's no membership committee, last time I checked. Maybe only the "real" alcoholics HAVE to rely on AA to recover, but it sure has made MY recovery a lot smoother and more pleasant.

Well, the name of the fellowship ought to tell you something.

Long form , Third Tradition: "Our membership ought to include all who suffer fro, alcoholism..." You quote the much abused short form, of course getting all defensive about it because you have to justify your own membership in a fellowship of alcoholics that you. by your own admission don't qualify for.

The title of the thread is called Not Sure I "belong" here. Some posters were actually trying to help the OP determine to her own satisfaction whether or not she does indeed qualify for membership. Ever heard the term "qualify?" Take a look at Chapter 7. To qualify means to help the prospect find out whether or not they are alcoholic. Why lie and mislead new prospects into believing that they qualify for membership?

<<Maybe only the "real" alcoholics HAVE to rely on AA to recover...>>

To the the non-alcoholic hard drinker, A.A. is just a support group. The real deal needs a lot more than a support group and social activities.

brandysnap · Member

How did the founding members find recovery? Wasn't it by using each others homes as support groups, before a programme of recovery was devised or a Big Book compiled?

Did Bill W really find recovery, didn't he still use drugs, and contract emphysema as a result of being a chain smoker and he was also depressed.

Forgive me if I'm not 100% accurate here, maybe someone can elaborate.

I have resigned myself to the fact that I can no longer drink in safety after many failed attempts over many years. I stopped for 5 years after I initially went to AA, got the information on alcoholism, went to a few meetings and stayed stopped for the 5 years without AA.

I started drinking again believing I would be fine having resisted for 5 years. I was fine for about 18 months and it started getting out of control again. Then for several years I was in and out of AA getting more and more confused by the minute with all the infighting. and other stuff I wont go in to.

I believe whatever it is I suffer from is progressive and I can't trust myself to drink now at all. The first few years after realising I had a problem in AA or not I knew I could take a drink and get away with it, I always knew I had another drink in me, as they say in AA, but now I feel as if I'd be playing Russian Roulette if I took a drink, and I'm not prepared to do that, I've far too much to lose.

Although once I take a drink I immediately want another and so on and so on but I can stop drinking when I really, really want to. I found in the past, once I thought that it was a good idea to have a drink, that idea manifested into a mental obsession and it was an idea that would over ride any other idea. This time I've been sober for nearly 2 1/2 years.

So where do I fit in?

brandysnap · Member

I forgot to add, I also stopped smoking 15 months ago.

Lexie · Senior Member

Sorry, I don't believe that the Big Book advocates turning away the "potential alcoholics" that are mentioned several times. I can't reliably control my drinking. I was physically dependent and mentally obsessed when I came in. My physical dependency and the obsession were gone shortly after I surrendered and came into AA. I have stayed sober without difficulty for almost two years without formally working the steps. I don't have cravings to drink.

BUT I believe I am an alcoholic. I believe if I pick up and drink, in a relatively short period of time I would be back where I started. Now, if the definition of "alcoholic" is someone who cannot stay sober without AA, then I don't know. Maybe I could, with some other kind of support. I don't think that makes me "not an alcoholic". I agree with Barisax, it is progressive, and maybe I just came in relatively early on in the progression. I believe I have some possibly permanent physical effects from my drinking, and I am not willing to go back out there just so I can qualify for SOME people's definition of what makes me an alcoholic qualified to be a member of AA.

Reffner · Senior Member

JW wrote:

<<Maybe only the "real" alcoholics HAVE to rely on AA to recover...>>

To the the non-alcoholic hard drinker, A.A. is just a support group. The real deal needs a lot more than a support group and social activities.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. I'm a (as it was put) "real" alcoholic, and there is NOTHING anywhere that tells me I HAVE to rely on AA. In fact, most of the AA members tell me not to rely on the members of AA, but to practice AA's steps and principles in my daily life. The only thing I have to rely on is my HP, and my spiritual connection with Him. To rely on people or groups is a set up for failure. For me, the people and groups are there to help me practice the AA program.

I ask, what is AA if not a support group? Brandy hit it dead on talking about the early days of the fellowship, and it's still true today. We gather together in meetings to get and stay sober, and help each other do just that. What more is needed than AA for the..."real deal?" Granted, I did a 90 day IP rehab, but that ended long ago. All I have today is AA, and it's just exactly enough.

Whether I'm an alcoholic, a hard, heavy drinker, or an abuser of alcohol is splitting hairs (imo). To me, it's about what happens when I drink, and the consequences I face. For me (and many others) alcohol, not alcoholism, means death. I'm an alcoholic. I will always be an alcoholic. I will die an alcoholic. Our BB tells us that the drinking of alcohol is but a symptom of our disease. My alcoholism will not kill me, but if I decide to pick up the next first drink, there is a VERY good chance that the alcohol will. There is no one on the face of this earth qualified to "diagnose" me as an alcoholic. I'm the only one who can do that, and today I'm alive because I finally did.

Brian

P.S. In my early recovery my sponsor wanted me to ask questions and talk about subjects such as this. When I asked him why he said..."you need to learn to keep it simple, and this is a good way to learn how NOT to keep it simple." He was right.

JW · Member

Lexie wrote:

Sorry, I don't believe that the Big Book advocates turning away the "potential alcoholics" that are mentioned several times. I can't reliably control my drinking. I was physically dependent and mentally obsessed when I came in. My physical dependency and the obsession were gone shortly after I surrendered and came into AA. I have stayed sober without difficulty for almost two years without formally working the steps. I don't have cravings to drink.

BUT I believe I am an alcoholic. I believe if I pick up and drink, in a relatively short period of time I would be back where I started. Now, if the definition of "alcoholic" is someone who cannot stay sober without AA, then I don't know. Maybe I could, with some other kind of support. I don't think that makes me "not an alcoholic". I agree with Barisax, it is progressive, and maybe I just came in relatively early on in the progression. I believe I have some possibly permanent physical effects from my drinking, and I am not willing to go back out there just so I can qualify for SOME people's definition of what makes me an alcoholic qualified to be a member of AA.

I don't believe that anyone has said anything about turning anyone away. What has been discussed is helping a person such as our OP who is on the fence decide for themselves. Or as McGowdog has implied "Giving the individual the dignity to diagnose themselves and come their own truth." We do people as a much as disservice by not letting them find their own truth as we would do them by turning them away.

A person can be alcohol dependent and not be alcoholic. See it all the time since I work in a medical detox unit. Cirrhosis of the liver and other physical symptoms are not necessarily symptoms of alcoholism, they are symptoms of drinking too much too long. This person, as it says in the book will have some difficulty stopping, and may have acquired the habit enough to impair him physically and mentally, but given a sufficient reason, he will stop or moderate.

Alcoholism is way more than a habit. A habit can be broken, though with difficulty by asserting the will. That is how I quit smoking. Alcoholism goes deeper. Beyond the physiological symptoms there is an over riding obsession that overrides any kind of sound reasoning or choice.. Underneath that is a spiritual sickness, a separation of the self from its source and from the rest of humanity. The true alcoholic must address that spiritual illness before he or she straightens out mentally.

The hard drinker will just decide to stop and stay stopped because he or she hasn't lost the power of choice. He or she will come to A.A. and like it, and settle in. He or she likes the fellowship and the social release. He or she may get involved in service. And he or she carries a potentially fatal message to the true alcoholic who stumbles in needing an answer. So, if you are one of these, please don't sponsor any real alcoholics.

JW · Member

Reffner wrote:

JW wrote:

<<Maybe only the "real" alcoholics HAVE to rely on AA to recover...>>

To the the non-alcoholic hard drinker, A.A. is just a support group. The real deal needs a lot more than a support group and social activities.
I'm gonna have to disagree here. I'm a (as it was put) "real" alcoholic, and there is NOTHING anywhere that tells me I HAVE to rely on AA. In fact, most of the AA members tell me not to rely on the members of AA, but to practice AA's steps and principles in my daily life. The only thing I have to rely on is my HP, and my spiritual connection with Him. To rely on people or groups is a set up for failure. For me, the people and groups are there to help me practice the AA program.

I ask, what is AA if not a support group? Brandy hit it dead on talking about the early days of the fellowship, and it's still true today. We gather together in meetings to get and stay sober, and help each other do just that. What more is needed than AA for the..."real deal?" Granted, I did a 90 day IP rehab, but that ended long ago. All I have today is AA, and it's just exactly enough.

Whether I'm an alcoholic, a hard, heavy drinker, or an abuser of alcohol is splitting hairs (imo). To me, it's about what happens when I drink, and the consequences I face. For me (and many others) alcohol, not alcoholism, means death. I'm an alcoholic. I will always be an alcoholic. I will die an alcoholic. Our BB tells us that the drinking of alcohol is but a symptom of our disease. My alcoholism will not kill me, but if I decide to pick up the next first drink, there is a VERY good chance that the alcohol will. There is no one on the face of this earth qualified to "diagnose" me as an alcoholic. I'm the only one who can do that, and today I'm alive because I finally did.

Brian

P.S. In my early recovery my sponsor wanted me to ask questions and talk about subjects such as this. When I asked him why he said..."you need to learn to keep it simple, and this is a good way to learn how NOT to keep it simple." He was right.

I have to agree that it isn't Alcoholics Anonymous I depend on, it is God. If it was A.A. I had to depend on, I'd have died of alcoholism long ago.

As far as alcoholism not killing anyone sober, try telling that to this poor guy who at 29 years sober, 29 years of relying on fellowship and "putting the plug in the jug" without steps or anything, just couldn't take it anymore and blew his head off.

JW · Member

Brandysnap asked:

>

From the rest of your post, it looks like you fit in just fine.

McGowdog · Veteran Member

brandysnap wrote:

Bill W really find recovery, didn't he still use drugs, and contract emphysema as a result of being a chain smoker and he was also depressed.

I've heard a lot of stuff about Bill W from inside and outside of the fellowship. I don't much care what Bill did after he helped write the BB. I'd say that he was on his A game the first 4 years of his sobriety. I see many people do well for 4 years, 8 years, etc. But when the seasons change, can you change with them? Don C from Colorado SpringsColorado speaks of this; he's a Native American and talks about recovery as one would talk about the four seasons. Another topic for another day. Bill W. even had a wonderful spiritual experience... a real Blue Light Special. Dr. Bob, on the other hand, never did. He was a steady rock who came to believe in practicing the principles and slowly developed a spiritual awakening over time. I don't think Bill and Bob drank the same exact way, yet both were real alcoholics. The BB talks about "real" alcoholics.

brandysnap wrote:

I stopped for 5 years after I initially went to AA, got the information on alcoholism, went to a few meetings and stayed stopped for the 5 years without AA.

I started drinking again believing I would be fine having resisted for 5 years. I was fine for about 18 months and it started getting out of control again. Then for several years I was in and out of AA getting more and more confused by the minute with all the infighting. and other stuff I wont go in to.

I believe whatever it is I suffer from is progressive and I can't trust myself to drink now at all.

This time I've been sober for nearly 2 1/2 years.

So where do I fit in?

Your story here is very similar to mine. I came to A.A. and it appears that I got angry and I left and drank. It was as if something inside of me wanted to drink again and I sabotaged my life just enough to say "See ya!" and go drink. That drink lasted some time. When I came back in, I had no resolve, no hope, no fight. The guys in my group said booze did something to me. I was able to get back in and do the deal and remain spiritually fit. To me, this is what the DAAT concept is all about... maintaining my spiritual fitness... seeking God... on a daily basis.

I'd like to relate to people who are describing the progressive nature of alcoholism. But remember that this is only true of the real alcoholic. I am of the understanding that the moderate drinker cannot drink themselves alcoholic no matter what. There may be some hard drinkers who may perhaps cross the line. I don't see myself as a line crosser. I can go back to when I was 10 years old to when I first drank alcoholically. I drank as much booze as I could put down for about what seemed like 10 minutes and I walked away like I was a god. I had a nice hour long buzz until my world started to get "dark". I started to take steps to get myself someplace safe... because I knew somehow that trouble was coming my way and I didn't want to get hurt or in trouble. The booze slowly slowly started to put me under and I knew it. I knew I had drank too much and overshot the mark, but I felt good. I had no fear, but just wanted to do what I could. I don't remember getting sick. I remember my brother seeing me and thinking I was faking it at first. I don't remember he and my mom trying to carry me across the street and back home. I don't remember them walking me around the backyard, putting me in the shower, trying to keep me conscious. I remember waking up. That was one of my best drunks ever. Over time, my blackouts just seemed to get worse and worse, and the drama that followed sometimes got worse.

One could say I was never very good at "handling my booze".

The book says, "We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker..."

Now... many people I've seen in meetings and on the www will argue stuff in the "164", which for me, includes the Drs Opinion. I'm not interested in their "new" program. I'm going to do A.A. I speak my experience in my best interpretation of what it says. Now... that interpretation has taken turns here and there... but it's been sufficient to keep me on the path.

brandysnap · Member

I understood that Bill W had his "spiritual experience" while under the influence of hallucigenic drugs.

Lexie · Senior Member

Wrong. He had it while in the hospital recovering from his last drunk.

It is true that he participated in LSD experiments back when there was a belief that it might have some medical/psychiatric uses. But that was years later.

brandysnap · Member

Yes, I know he was in hospital when he had the experience, but they had administered drugs to him that caused hallucinations, no?

JW · Member

Lexie is correct.

The only drugs they gave Bill in Towns were more of a sedative type. Although I will concede that the "Bella Donna treatment" Bill was given could have produced hallucinations.

Drugs that expand the consciousness produce real experiences. However they are borrowed experiences. We don't get to keep them.

Proof that Bill's experience wasn't induced by drugs is that he remained in a higher state of consciousness for a period of time, long after the drugs were no longer in his system. However, he didn't build on that experience. He tried to live off of it and spent years pursuing it, to the point of being miserable.

brandysnap · Member

You know, that might not be too far removed from my own initial experience of AA...............without the bright lights of course.

JW · Member

brandysnap wrote:

You know, that might not be too far removed from my own initial experience of AA...............without the bright lights of course.

How so?

brandysnap · Member

Because I felt amazing, (without the use of drugs)I realized what was wrong with me and I knew I could have a life without alcohol. But....I didn't really change or deal with all the messy stuff.

JW · Member

I have always intuitively known that my answer would be spiritual in nature. But I had no idea idea how that would look.

The first time booze worked for me was a spiritual experience. As far back as I can remember, I had a sense of being disconnected, of being separate from what I should not be separated from. A sense of being incomplete and different and outside looking in. A chronic malcontent, unable to be at rest in the here and now. Augustine wrote that "God made us for Himself and that we are restless until we find rest in Him." The psalmist wrote of thirsting after God as the deer thirst after water in the brook." Carl Jung talked of a secret unrest that gnaws at the roots of my being and of alcoholism as a spiritual thirst, a craving of our beings for wholeness, of union with God. Doctor Silkworth says that we are restless, irritable, and discontent, unable to be at ease without booze. That is what I brought to my first drink at age thirteen. My first experience with booze working for me was powerful, profound, and instantaneous. It changed me. I was OK right here right now with the people I was with and with myself. I spent the next seventeen years pursuing that effect, literally to the gates of death and insanity. And by the time I realized that I couldn't quit, it didn't do that anymore.

When I was seventeen, my mother had thrown me out and I was staying with my grandma. My grandma was a born again baptized in the holy ghost tongue talking Pentecostal. She was always pestering me to go to church with her. One Wednesday evening, I consented, mostly to get her off my back. Now at seventeen, I already knew that something was real wrong with me. I'm at this church and they singing and praising and testifying and I felt something stirring in me, something pulling at me. These days I realize it was The Presence of God. They had an altar call and I answered it. I was on my knees at the front of this church and they were talking in tongues and laying on hands and falling on the floor, and this great sense of peace washed over me and I knew that I was all right right now. That sense of peace persisted for a little while, but I took no action on it and it wore off. After a while I became rather cynical around that stuff. Had I taken some action on it, maybe I would be sober in The Assembly of God church since I was seventeen doing what trey do instead of being in A.A.

I drank for about fourteen more years after that experience. What I know today is that they path to God laid out in the 12 Steps has brought to me that completeness in the here and now and that I keep growing in that experience.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

lmao at how many views this thread has gotten, presumably from a lot of guests looking to compare in or probably out. To the original poster, only you can figure that out, but if your here it's probably for a good reason. biggrin

FlyingSquirrel · Senior Member

Me, I just like a good argument. biggrin

Larry_H · MIP Old Timer

FlyingSquirrel wrote:

Me, I just like a good argument.

Me too FS and if I manage to convince you I am right I will switch sides (LOL)

Larry,
---------------
"We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous, and free." pg. 133 BB

Dave Harm · Senior Member

I like the one question quiz.

Social drinking is just that social and fun. Alcoholic drinking is filled with pain and remorse.

Here is the question...

Has your drinking ever caused anyone to shed a tear?

That did it for me... my drinking cause so much pain and tears that I could fill many buckets with water...

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Larry_H wrote:

FlyingSquirrel wrote:

Me, I just like a good argument.

Me too FS and if I manage to convince you I am right I will switch sides (LOL)

Larry,
---------------
"We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous, and free." pg. 133 BB

I'll tell you one thing, I've read a lot of rigid thinking in this thread about how it has to be this way or that," I'm right/you're wrong"... I've seen a lot of folks with attitudes like this eventually drink perhaps because they couldn't meet their own rigid standards, or perhaps they were just too smart for this simple program. Here's a few things that came to mind, while reading this thread: Easy does it, Keep it simple stupid, Attraction rather than promotion. So what if someone is not a "real alcholic"? Bottom line is there is no good reason to drink and if someone wants to stop drinking, it doesn't matter what their reason is. And lastly what keeps you sober might get me drunk, and that's why I might not "want what you have" and i'll take what I need and leave the rest. biggrin

JW · Member

"Keep it simple stupid..."

Speak for yourself Dean.

-- Edited by JW on Sunday 1st of August 2010 10:55:24 PM

-- Edited by JW on Sunday 1st of August 2010 10:56:10 PM