Something in Common

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Something in Common

Lexie · Senior Member

At the risk of starting a lively debate here, I've been very SLOW on working the Steps. I've been sober almost two years (8/28/08), and am just getting started on formal step-work. I probably would have done a fourth step awhile ago, but my sponsor insists we need to "do" the first three first. I feel like I have "done" the first three, but she and I talked this weekend (at the Convention--we were rooming together), and she says I still need to do the formalities with her. So we compared schedules and picked a day and time.

I have not had any difficulty in not drinking. I don't white-knuckle it--I simply don't have the desire to drink. I do, however, continue to feel my life needs a lot of work.

So I guess it is time. I think if I had had more of a struggle staying sober after I came in, I probably would have felt a greater sense of urgency about it. I don't want to become complacent, though, and as they say, you can't give away what you haven't got.

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Seriously no desire to start a debate, some alcoholics, like the "real" alcoholic" described in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous need the spiritual awakening as the result of the steps in order to stop drinking, as in they can't stop without it, some people are able to stop drinking on fellowship alone, others you see bounce in and out of meetings for years, some for decades trying to stay sober on meetings alone but are unable to, many here struggled for years attending meetings but unable to get sober until they surrendered and did the steps.

The alcoholics I am trying to reach need to work the steps in order to stop drinking because they are literally unable to stop drinking on group therapy and meeting attendance alone and for them to attempt to do so is futile and is a death sentence to keep them away from the steps, I literally know hundreds and hundreds of alcoholics who were unable to stay sober without the steps

I am looking to help the alcoholic who has lost the power of choice, who's will power is non-existant, who is without defense against the first drink, who no human power, such as meetings will help, the alcoholic for whom the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous was written:

The tragic truth is that if the man be a real alcoholic, the happy day may not arrive. He has lost control. At a certain point in the drinking of every alcoholic, he passes into a state where the most powerful desire to stop drinking is of absolutely no avail. This tragic situation has already arrived in practically every case long before it is suspected.

The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.

When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or to permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcohoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.

It doesn't say ALL, it says most have lost the power of choice, however it says for those too there will come a day when they also lose the power of choice. I am looking to help the alcoholic who has lost the power of choice, who doesn't have the luxury of NOT working the steps for 2 years, they are out there, they exist, this book and this program was written and founded for them, I am not saying anyone is unwelcome if they have a problem with alcohol, I am saying I am trying to help the alcoholic who is unable to stay sober without the steps, who try to stay sober on meeting attendance alone and are utterly baffled when they see others who are able to do so but they themselves are unable to, the ones beyond human aid.

I would be a dead man if kept from the steps for 2 years, I was and am literally unable to get sober without the steps, this is who that book was written for, who the steps were written for, and who I am trying to help, is the alcoholic for whom half measures and middle of the road solutions avail nothing, for whom the result is nil until they let go absolutely:

If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help. This we did because we honestly wanted to, and were willing to make the effort.

I am looking to help the alcoholic who is unable to stay sober who meets this criteria:

We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol, cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power that One is God. May you find Him now!

Half measures availed us nothing.

Not everyone meets this criteria, they don't need what I or The Program contained in that book have to offer, others will literally die or go insane without it (the steps, not me) and end up in jails, institutions or insane Those are the people I am trying to reach, not those able to stay sober on meeting attendance alone, Those able to stay sober on Meeting Attendance alone don't need my help

I am happy for you that you are able to stay sober without having had to work the steps, this is fantastic and great news, you are very lucky, there are many among us that come to AA that this is NOT the case for, as a matter of fact most real alcoholics, these are the lives I am trying to save, much like for many people who take aspirin and then don't have to take their high blood pressure medicine any more, other people try that and it kills them, some of us need our "high blood pressure meds" here at AA which is where we come for those meds, or we die and well meaning advice from people without the heart condition we suffer from and who don't need the same meds we do has the potential to be fatal.

So no debate, some alcoholics need the steps and The Program of Alcoholics Anonymous as outlined in the first 164 pages of The Big Book in order not to die or go insane, these are the people I am trying to reach, the only debate I ever can see having is when those who don't or didn't need the steps thus don't have the experience give well meaning advice or even try to sponsor to those of us alcoholics who do need the steps, thereby putting those alcoholics lives in jeopardy, THAT I have a problem with.

-- Edited by AGO on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 07:40:55 AM

Dave Harm · Senior Member

This is true in a way... but it is also the "fault" of sponsors. Nowhere in the Big Book is the word sponsor mentioned, yet we hand over our lives to them... in a way making them our Higher Powers.

When we are ready to do the steps, we should do them and not be held back by a sponsor who wants us to do more...

Ultimately, the individual is responsible for when and how they work the steps... and yes Ago I do agree with you... my only question is why are some folks so "controlled" by sponsors?

ferrisdp · Senior Member

I have just started reading the Big Book with my sponsor as a beginning to working the steps. I too felt no sense of urgency because the mental obsession with alcohol seemed to be "under control". Well sure enough, on Saturday I was at a party where alcohol was present. I had been to other parties with no problems. I felt a bit socially uncomfortable and started obsessing about how to steal a couple of shots of the Absolute that was on the table to "help me relax"

I even went so far as mentioning it to my 22 year old daughter who was there as well. It's obvious to me now that I was looking for her "approval" and off to the races I would have been.

I didn't drink though. I thought about how disappointed my wife and two kids would have been, but more importantly how devastated I would have been. I think now about how close to relapse I really was.

Not to be overly dramatic here but this is life and death for us alcoholics. And I had a false sense of security in my sobriety and it scares me now.

I had always planned on working the steps because it was drilled into my head in rehab, in the roooms and by my sponsor that it's the key to sobriety. Saturday brought that point home for me.

gonee · MIP Old Timer

Absolutelty dead on. If this alcoholism was malignant cancer, then I find that I am able to show a lot more enthusiasm to get help. When it came to recovery in AA and the 12 steps my sponsor had to virtually push me. I was not keen despite an almost fatal relapse which would have cost me life.
Over the last 22 years of my recovery I have been trying to do the same thing for my sponsees and it's the same old story. They either do not want it and will not make the sacfrifice recovery demands. I just have to give up watch some of them die of alcoholism, a fully treatable illness.

Lexie · Senior Member

I personally think the concept of surrender is essential to ANYONE who continues a futile struggle with drinking. I was one of those people absolutely unable to drink moderately for more than a couple of weeks at a time, and I had a physical dependency on alcohol that was making my life hellish. Only when I surrendered, gave up the battle, was I able to peacefully walk away from alcohol.

I don't know, but I suspect, that there are degrees or types of alcoholism. Some people stop more readily than others. But I also believe that even those like me, who stop relatively easily, are susceptible to the mind games that if we give it one more shot we might be able to control it and drink normally. I think I experimented quite enough in that department--I have no desire to go back and conduct further experiments. So I want to ward off those thoughts.

I also think anyone whose drinking has been out of control for some time, whose life has revolved around drinking, needs to learn how to live in peace with the world. We've done a lot of damage to ourselves and our relationships. We need the steps to heal us, even if we are able to stop drinking without them.

Who wants to go through quitting drinking if you are still living your life in an unsatisfactory way? If it gets or stays unsatisfactory enough, there is a risk we might say, screw it--if this is what sobriety is, who needs it? I know that I have lived my life in a very self-centered way, that I have let fear rule me, that I have been poisoned by resentments. So for me, the steps are something to give me a full and satisfying life--something I haven't experienced.

As far as sponsors go, I don't feel "controlled" by mine--but she has been working the steps with others for a long time, she has what I consider to be good, solid sobriety, and a happy life, so she "has what I want." If she is the teacher, I don't feel I have the right to set the curriculum or the teaching method. I can walk out of class or find a new teacher if what she has to offer doesn't help me. But it's kind of pointless to ask someone to be a teacher or guide and not at least give serious consideration to what they suggest you do.

AGO · MIP Old Timer

I actually agree with you Lexie about their being different types of alcoholism, how could I not ya know? I think they all end up in the same place, but they start from differing areas, some born with it, some cross the invisible line, we have bingers, periodics, daily's, functioning, under the briders, all types

I was never physically dependant or addicted to alcohol, although I drank vast quanities that would have floated Winston Churchill and the entire Royal Navy away in a sea of drink, what I was unable to do was STAY sober

I had an obsession of the mind coupled with an allergy of the body, I was never "physically dependant" or "addicted" to alcohol, I was unable to mentally face life without alcohol, but when I put it in my system I was off to the races

I didn't have a "drinking problem", I had an "interval problem", the intervals between drinks, that's when all my problems happened, when my girlfriend was up in my grill, when I'd get in trouble at work, when I was unable to cope with life, or frankly just didn't want to, a few drinks, no problem, alcohol was my solution, not my problem, it's when it stopped working is when things got bad, so that is what I need to address is my thinking, my spiritual well being, that's why I need the steps.

If the problem was merely a physical one, ie dependance or addiction, it would be solved when I broke the physical addiction, but my problem is 2 fold, three actually

mental
spiritual
physical

and any "program" of recovery for me that didn't address all 3 would leave me with a gun in my mouth, and even with all three it has been touch and go a few times, without alcohol I end up facing problems only something between my lips will resolve, a gun or a bottle, the steps address that, nothing else does in quite the same way

not everyone needs that level of commitment, not everyone needs to work the steps or they will drink or kill themselves or drink and die but many do, and I have seen dozens and dozens of alcoholics die in and out of this program without the steps

it is life or death for those of us that crossed that invisible line

Dave Harm wrote:

This is true in a way... but it is also the "fault" of sponsors. Nowhere in the Big Book is the word sponsor mentioned, yet we hand over our lives to them... in a way making them our Higher Powers.

When we are ready to do the steps, we should do them and not be held back by a sponsor who wants us to do more...

Ultimately, the individual is responsible for when and how they work the steps... and yes Ago I do agree with you... my only question is why are some folks so "controlled" by sponsors?

Yeah I don't know Dave, that is a good point, I was taught that if it what my sponsor said wasn't in the BB or the 12 and 12 they were wrong, and they didn't give an actual time table for the steps as in "step one- 3 days" step two - 2.4 hours" blah blah, but there are pretty large clues

things like the word "newcomer" in working the fifth step in the 12 and 12, words like "immediately", and "no permanent effect unless followed at once" and we don't delay

There is actually a pretty clear schedule for the steps laid out, it doesn't say how long each one should take, except 6 and 7, but it's pretty clear and pretty straightforward starting on page 63 after "C God could and would if he were sought"

saying, "this thought takes us to step 3", explains it for 3 pages then says OK, now hit your knees, say this, now start your fourth step, which looks like this and is usually as definate as this example

then you tell someone, then go home, do this for an hour, say this prayer, step six and seven is done, step 8 you already have from step four, put those into now, later and never columns, do the nows and pray for the laters and nevers (step nine),you will be amazed before you are halfway through, great now do this when you wake up and when you go to sleep (10-11) and help others and practice all this in your life (12)

it's not rocket science and it AMAZES me how complicated some people make it and how controlling they are about it, read it together, do the step when you come to it, the book is a textbook designed to take all that BS OUT of the picture, it's like Priests in churches who insist you can only reach God through their teachings as opposed to reading the bible yourslef (for Christians) that's not a path to God, it's about control

it's laid out, do this like this and you get this, here's your prayer, NEXT!

pretty simple

-- Edited by AGO on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 08:15:09 AM

louisa · Senior Member

A very wise long term sober AA member once said to me ....

"Louisa, never forget your sponsor is always just an ex - drunk !"

Ouch! I thought that was a pretty outrageous thing to say and I confess I felt a little unnerved by it. But it's true and of course her REAL message was that our only true long term Sponsor is our HP.

I do believe however that Sponsors are vital in early recovery......

For my part.............I stick to the Twelve Steps like glue. Doing things my way in the past NEVER kept me sober.........horrendous. disbelief

Louisa xx

RE:

I do believe however that Sponsors are vital in early recovery......
I would like to change that to "can be extremely helpful" in early recovery! xx

-- Edited by louisa on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 10:36:42 AM

Just Toni · MIP Old Timer

Agree about the differences.....how I define those differences..for me anyway.....is that it is a matter of only one thing.....how sick are we when we come in and finally surrender....

I say that as one of those "bouncers" you refer to, attended hundreds of meetings, trying to listen, always avoiding the front wall where the 12 Steps are listed....reason, looked Greek, and made me so full of fear.....nothing ever sank in....

So clearly I was for many years as a chronic relapser, in my Brandy drenched brain, convinced that I would never make it.....

Finally when my third suicide attempt failed......I simply looked up and asked God (a God that I was also convinced wanted nothing to do with the likes of this drunk) but heck, I asked HIM anyway.....Dear God, Will you SHOW me a different way.

My 10 year History of Relapse came to an end, the Compulsion was lifted, but I was still a very very sick puppy.....physically, mentally, and now with the Miracle happening in my life, the seeds of a Spiritual Life were born.

So with that background, I began seeing an AA Therapist, attended an AA Meeting everyday for about 5 years, but to back up 4 1/2 years, ran into a woman, an older woman, and asked her to be my Sponsor....I had had many, but she was very different, she scared me somewhat, and for me that was a good thing.....by scared I mean it was clear that my old ways of smiling and running my manipulative BS would never fly with her. She set down some hard and fast and Firm rules before she agreed to Sponsor me.....first explaining that first and foremost I needed to understand she was not going to be my friend, She would be my Sponsor,...and spelled out clearly that our Relationship was based on The Working of the 12 Steps.... and we would begin with Step one, gave me directions on how to do some writting on the first three, then we would meet at a quiet resturant, discuss the Step, and if she felt that I was ready, we would move to the next Step......So I was finally doing the Greek, that had scared me so much.....and it was working.......when I hit the 4th step, my own experience with this one made my knees knock in fear, so I choose to go to an AA Therapist to do my 5th.....then went back and continued with the remaining steps with my Sponsor......down to the 8th, made the list, and did the work, very vigorously, felt so good to be free of the BS that was my code most of my life...to a life of living in the truth......as in Vigorous Honesty in All My affairs.....To date, in my Heart what AA means the most to this Alcoholic is that I now have in my Heart, a very deep abiding Faith, with an HP that lives in my heart. Unconditional love, my Faith has taught me how to relinquise Judgment of all and any, well except sometime for myself...my little motto, "A Judgment is a Prison I have just built for myself"

So Ago, agree, that is the foundation of the Program.......THE STEPS ARE THE WAY OUT OF THE DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM.....

Have Sponsored many, but it truly is surprising that when I say what my Sponsor said to me, about the work of a Sponsor, and the working of the Steps, it is amazing some agree, then just try to change course.....try to get them back on the Steps, and when they refuse, well just tell them I will be here, when they are ready to ONLY work the Steps of this Program...they remind me of myself, in relapse mode......and you cannot BS a BSer, can you????

Feels like I have begun to ramble, so will say to all Have a great Wednesday.....lets do this one day at a time.....

God Bless us ALL

Toni

-- Edited by Just Toni on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 10:05:28 AM

jj · MIP Old Timer

hi all,
steps 1 to 3 i did in rehab. i took a long time and many excuses to not do a step 4. i wavered between doing it in great detail and just getting in done so i could go on to step 5.
well, i let my procrastination win and *justified* that i could not do it unless it was thorough. And i was *not ready* to dig that deep so soon in sobriety. after 8 months of sobriety i drifted and that is how i chose relapse. putting 'it' off.
after coming back to my senses *thanks to the highway patrol man who put me in jail* i was ready to leave alcohol behind me and with complete abandon, restart my steps and place myself in my HPs capable hands.
i was willing to do whatever it takes to stay sober and i did my 4th step. it wasn't perfect, it was just a beginning of cleaning the sludge out of my heart, mind, and life... i was ready to move on and work the rest of the steps. i did it with my sponsor. she is my partner in sobriety. we choose to help each other. An older AA helping a newer AA.
the BB says we are responsible for what we do, say, and what we dwell on. i fall short of perfection every day. but i do see progress and that is what the steps do for me. it keeps me from taking that first drink. it helps me be a better listener. it makes me more caring about others' pain and suffering. But it keeps me clear on who i am responsible for and to.
me and my HP. That is it. people, places, and things come 2nd. The BB and meetings help me keep on track, the steps guide my life, but I am in charge of my thoughts and actions.
*not choosing* is deadly to sobriety. this is a program of action, not drifting, FOR ME AND MY SOBRIETY.
my name is jj and i am an alcoholic.

Reffner · Senior Member

Great post Andrew. I would have to agree that step work is the key to long term sobriety. I was a "123 out" member of AA for quite a while. Step 4 was confusing to me, so I always just skipped it. This time around, I did my best, and couldn't wait to sit down with my sponsor and do step 5. 6 and 7 followed right away, and before I knew it, I was really seeing the step 9 promises in my life.

I feel it's up to me to work the steps, and not use the "waiting on my sponsor" excuse. No where in the BB does it say we HAVE to do step 5 with our sponsor. I know many people who did not use their sponsor, and they are still sober today. I mean really, how long does it take to come to believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity. Either we believe it or we don't. I see so many people using workbooks to do the steps and don't understand that. They used the BB in the past, and it worked for them, so why won't it work for me.

Brian

Dave Harm · Senior Member

Andrew maybe I didn't phrase it right. What I mean is that we should do the steps when we are ready... not when our sponsor says we are ready.

So many folks get stuck waiting to do the 4th step and they can't because "my sponsor says I need to do this first." Somewhere along the line the power of a newcomer was handed over to a sponsor and instead of working my program as an individual, I end up working a program that a sponsor wants me to work.

Me personally I live and die by the 12 Steps and I do agree that those that work them stay sober. I'm prove of that... I didn't work them and went back to drinking after 5 1/2 years... I have worked them and have stayed sober...

A good saying that I do like a lot, "I got sober by the steps I take, not by the meetings I make." The point being the steps are number one for recovery...

AGO · MIP Old Timer

Dave Harm wrote:

Andrew maybe I didn't phrase it right. What I mean is that we should do the steps when we are ready... not when our sponsor says we are ready.

So many folks get stuck waiting to do the 4th step and they can't because "my sponsor says I need to do this first." Somewhere along the line the power of a newcomer was handed over to a sponsor and instead of working my program as an individual, I end up working a program that a sponsor wants me to work.

Me personally I live and die by the 12 Steps and I do agree that those that work them stay sober. I'm prove of that... I didn't work them and went back to drinking after 5 1/2 years... I have worked them and have stayed sober...

A good saying that I do like a lot, "I got sober by the steps I take, not by the meetings I make." The point being the steps are number one for recovery...

and I am agreeing with you

about sponsors holding one back as per their own agenda when the book clearly states the opposite

My experience has been once I started working the steps, they started working me, a process began taking place, I would "read ahead" and find I was half-way into the next step without knowing it, I don't tell my sponsees what step they are on, they tell me, (although I do give a 30 day window for the fourth step, I never, not once had to enforce it with someone who was going to work the steps anyway, and nothing I said could change the ones that will/would NEVER work the steps.

Willingness comes from within, it's like drinking or sobriety, if I am in a not fit spiritual condition, no power on earth will stop me from drinking, if I am in fit spiritual condition, no power on earth can make me drink

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink

If I am ready to work the steps nothing has EVER stopped me, I have called sponsors and TORN them some new booty when I have sat on my fifth step too long, or frankly fired them, and if I am not ready no power on earth, except maybe more drinking or intense suffering in so-dry-it-tee will give me the necessary willingness to work the steps

thing is it's iffy, the newcomer comes in unable to manage their own life, so need guidance, so many alcoholics forget they are the hose and not the water and start giving that guidance and place themselves as the position of higher power, that is why, for me, I tell my sponsees right out of the gate, if I can't reconcile every single thing I say out of the big book or 12 x 12 when working with you, I AM WRONG

So I believe if the sponsor returns to the book, and passes on a good understanding of it, it won't stray too far, it's when we start passing on interpretations of interpretations and having heavy drinkers sponsor real alcoholics that problems arise

we are once again, the water delivery system, not the water, the book shows us one way how to get to that water, we call that method "AA" or ""The Program of Alcoholics Anonymous"

So we on the same page Dave

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Great Discussion and I never try to avoid listening to discussion among alcoholics
although mostly listening is best for me. Something weird happens when I just
jump into one is that I get this taste of shoe leather in my mouth...non-alcoholic
shoe leather of course. One of the recovery sisters in Hilo has set the paradigm
for my relationship with the program..."My only problem is me and my only solution
is God." The first 3 steps summed up for me was Trust God. That is what I spent
most of the first 9 years doing...trusting God and while I was learning that I didn't
drink. I was (more then less now) oppositional and defiant then. Not only did
I resist the whole program I built a wall against having it rush in and swamp me.
That's just how I did it then. Doing step 4? I've done six of those each one
more searching, fearless and moral than the one before it and the later ones
driven not by sponsors but others my sponsors encouraged me to seek out so
that I could eventually get this program for living into my subconsciousness
rather than have to think about it before I walked it. The last 4th step was done
to find the "tap root" cause of all of my defects. It was the sweetest, the best,
the most revealing and I shared that one word tap root finding with my sponsor
just before he left my life for parts unknown. He was a God send just as this
spiritual, social model program, is.    For me today it is the same as how I use
to drink...habitually and without thinking about it or the consequences of my
drinking. I live this program..."walk it, don't talk it" "just don't think the thing,
or talk the thing...do the thing" is what we were looking for if I was to know I
was "getting it".

Some of those who I have tried to help got some of it...Okay.   Some got some
of it thru others...Okay. Some got nothing and some have it and I become the
student when they are giving it away.   Not different than I was in the first 9
years of recovery.

Like Bill W...I got the most important part early; I can't, God can, I'll let Him and
then I resisted everything else, didn't drink, went to meetings, read the literature,
went to conventions and did service until it was time to move on up the chain.
My life got so much better during that time but not as good as it is right now after
deciding to make the steps my choice for living my life.

It's been a guided tour for me...God has held the light while my sponsors have
told me about landmarks. Many times I missed their landmarks and made my
own always under the light. I have to remember how this all started and the
difficulties both Bill and Bob and their wives had as they were led here. It keeps
it real for me. When ever it comes to an end for me I don't want the same thought
my former sponsor had for his headstone before he died. Charlie S..."he died sober".
For me it isn't just about not drinking...it's about living in the state of peace knowing
that I am willingly in the influence of a power greater than myself and that I can be
of use to another who is also seeking the same condition. Love always.

PS...Just a memory...when I first arrived I did at the doors of the Al-Anon family
Groups (Lois's effort) and I feared I was facing another religion. They notified me
"we are not a religion"    however if you work these steps religiously... Do it!

Didn't taste any leather that time.  LOL ((((hugs)))) smile

-- Edited by Jerry F on Wednesday 7th of July 2010 05:56:03 PM

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

"Some quickly...some slowly, but they will all materialize...if we work for them."

"None of us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection."

Peace,
Rob

pinkchip · MIP Old Timer

If I want lasting sobriety, I will do the steps. I want to learn. I want to be a sponsor. I want to give back what was given to me. So yes. I agree...fellowship and group support is awesome and has tremendous power...but true change is in the steps and applying the steps as you learn from others in meetings...and through working the steps with a sponsor. Just my opinion. Change hurts...so some would rather remain sober and relatively stagnant. It is possible to do this and I have seen it..(people not drinking for years without doing the steps), but they are shorting themselves on a greater recovery.