Yes Brian ,it is easy to say I will not be spased out by my expectations of what others should be doing but the real work comes when those expectations dont happen.Better not to have them,but easier said then done...thanks for sharing that,my wife having one of them days also(we work together) In the short little book called the "Four Agreements" it says"taking things personally is one of the maimum expressions of selfishness presuming everything is about me.I HAVEALWAYS TAKEN THINGS PERSONALLY.! Im still working on this little jewel(lots a work)..Hope the next time period of your life smooths out
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
I REMEMBER THAT!! And I remember the lesson from that also. The lesson was about giving others grace and margin and latitude and forgiveness and any other thing necessary to keep me away from the doors of hurt and resentment and hate and self pity and anything else that would drive me back on myself rather than the program for a solution. I have never had the right solution for unfulfilled expectations without the fellowship, the steps, slogans, traditions and literature. I have never had the solution. Today I let being let down trigger giving grace rather than tantruming, breaking people or things and drinking. Trust God, clean house, Help others. Thanks for bringing it home.
I love that this is next to the lack of humility thread, for me they are two sides of the same coin
I have to come to find almost any expectation is an unreasonable one, not with everyone, all the time, but the secret expectations, my hidden agendas (hidden even from myself) with others cause me suffering, suffering that becomes acute and constant as my efforts at control continue to fail
I am forced to learn this lesson again and again, and am back at square one yet again, and am learning once again confusing this with boundaries which are
If You ________ I feel_________
and if you continue this behavior
I will __________
but then I expect them to change their behavior and get upset when they don't, not remembering that a boundary is internal, not external, they are not something I set in someone else's yard expecting "them" to change their behavior, they are a way to protect myself
I constantly place my feelings in the hands of others with expectations of honesty and integrity and open communication, and when these aren't realized, I get upset AT THEM even though this happens over and over and over and over and over
who is the dummy?
who is the real asshole here?
where is the problem?
I can find the answer to all of these perplexing questions by a quick trip to the bathroom mirror and a quick mini fourth step (tenth step)
there I am, looking back at me every time
-- Edited by AGO on Wednesday 16th of June 2010 06:46:07 PM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Very well put AGO, and thanks Jerry for the reminder. I'm grateful that today I have the sanity to realize when I'm falling back into bad habits, and can use the tools I've been given to work through it. I guess it falls into my character defects category, and need to remember that I can't expect changes to happen over night.
Wanna hear where the insanity took me? I waited around for the person I placed expectations on to apologize, and when I didn't get it I started the whole self pity thing. Thank God for the ability to recognize when I was wrong, and the courage to work a 10th step. I'm still amazed at how this program works!!!
Thanks for the input, and helping me to keep it simple!
Cryptic at first Reffner, but now I get where you're coming from. One thing my sponsor helped me see in my recent 4th/5th Steps was that:
"I expect Justice."
This poses 2 problems for me. Number one, it often means that whomever offends me may not see it my way, or "get it", or worse, "get theirs". (expectations unmet)
Second problem? I still believe I am not worthy of recovery or happiness on some level, because I believe I deserve "justice" handed down to me for the wrongs I have done. This points to a problem with the concept of Grace, and also the ability to forgive myself. (I expect punishment, and when I get Grace, I punish myself, in turn...)
These are just some of the "old ideas" I have, and the result is nil until I can let go, absolutely. It means, for me, letting go of all kinds of expectations. Deep stuff. And hard as hell to do after a lifetime of "seeking justice".
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
Exactly Joni. I didn't think of it that way, but your right. A big part of the old me (that I still work on daily) was the whole "life's not fair" attitude. Maybe it's self pity, maybe it's an ego thing. The stupid committee meeting going on in my head says "you've worked so hard, and come so far that you deserve a little more respect/credit for what you've done". Super crazy $h*t that gives me a good laugh from time to time.
I talked it out, admitted my fault in the situation, and made the amends, and feel great today! Step 10 is a hard one for me, but when I take that step, there's almost instant relief, and for that I am grateful.
I have reasonable expectations of others and get let down and I feel slighted.
I think its okay to have reasonable expectations. Cuz I think there is a difference between an expectation and a simple request.
I dont like 'being let down' either. It happens tho. How I deal with it is key to whether or not Im happy , joyous and free OR whether Im pissed off, hateful and miserable.
It all boils down to me and my attitude. And I know from experience that it can be really hard sometimes to keep a positive attitude when ppl continually let ya down.
what is the difference between reasonable and unreasonable expectations though?
what is fair? honorable? things we would expect from a child?
I have found the only unreasonable expectation I have is not determined by "them" but by me.
How to explain...I am a freelance independant contractor, I have one boss that regularly tries (successfully) to diddle me out of my normal rate scale
When I am busy with other companies, there is no negotiation, he tries to diddle, I say no, this is my rate, pay it or hire someone else
When I am slow and need the money I play his game and he frequently is able to get me to take less money, and I get angry as all get out
My "unreasonable" expectation is that I expect him to treat me honorably and pay me a fair days wages for a fair days work, the "reality" is he will gouge me if he himself isn't making what he should on a job, he passes that screwing onto me, all the while complaining about clients who F him over by underpaying him, so that is why he can't afford to pay me my wage.
So when I am sorted out he can't affect me, he tries to diddle me, I tell him where to get off, he pays me my wage or does it himself
When I am not sorted out I allow him to affect me, he does the very same thing but my reaction is worlds apart, and 50% of the time I walk away getting paid less then what I think is fair and deeply angry
the only difference is me
"I expect justice" for me over the years has been learning "I will set internal boundaries where I won't allow you to hurt me repeatedly, but if you do, it's an internal failed boundary, not an "unfair world", so what needs to be changed is me
this is far more difficult then it sounds -for me-
My default setting is blame, therefore victimhood, although I would deny it if asked and it takes serious paying attention and frequent writing to see where this serious character defect causes me strife
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Now here is where cynicism is your pal: I was reading your post and thought you were going to say that you expect this guy to try to get you to lower your fees every time, and expect every interaction with him to leave you worse off financially. Fair enough.
I'm surprised that he EVER pays you the full price even when given an ultamatum (spelling skills just died. sorry). Honor is a business dealing? Good grief, what would we do with all the starving lawyers?
I think of business (even the business of being employed) as a competative sport. It's all what the market will bear, and what one can get away with or protect one's self from.
I do hope that there might be Socially, and among those that love one a higher standard, and that a better or more convenient offer or setting one's hair appointment for a day before or after an event already commited to might be reasonable, but more the fool I.
On the other hand, they might just be trying to tell be something that I should accept. Like namely, I do not value you or your time, I'm passive-aggressive and a bit of an ass.
Now here is where cynicism is your pal: I was reading your post and thought you were going to say that you expect this guy to try to get you to lower your fees every time, and expect every interaction with him to leave you worse off financially. Fair enough.
I'm surprised that he EVER pays you the full price even when given an ultamatum (spelling skills just died. sorry). Honor is a business dealing? Good grief, what would we do with all the starving lawyers?
I think of business (even the business of being employed) as a competative sport. It's all what the market will bear, and what one can get away with or protect one's self from.
I do hope that there might be Socially, and among those that love one a higher standard, and that a better or more convenient offer or setting one's hair appointment for a day before or after an event already commited to might be reasonable, but more the fool I.
On the other hand, they might just be trying to tell be something that I should accept. Like namely, I do not value you or your time, I'm passive-aggressive and a bit of an ass.
Just saying.
Dear Rainspa,
cynicism might be your pal, but it isn't mine, please feel free to refrain from EVER offering me advice again telling me to acquire a character defect such as cynicism in order to deal with people with unethical business practices, you have program experience with it? great, feel free to share your story, but don't tell me what is and isn't my friend especially demeaning honesty and honor and expounding the virtues of cynicism, legalized theft, and capitalism, thank you
I don't eat a meal knowing the cost and then try to get it for half price and call that "just business" I call that "stealing", I realize that is rare but it is who I am, and I like who I see in the mirror at night.
I don't steal from people, not in cutting corners on hours, cutting wages from employees, I don't view people as interchangable pawns to be used and discarded for cheaper versions or any of the thousands of ways people who "get away with whatever they can" make business a "competitive sport", I mean what I say and I say what I mean and my word is my bond and I don't deal with asshats like that more then once if possible, it demeans me I feel like I have been slimed by something disgusting.
It's like the thought process behind "Treason never prospers, for with prosperity it ceases to be treason", lying is lying, theft is theft, and lack of integrity is lack of integrity, I realize for for many once it's "Business" that all goes out the window and a different set of ethics comes into play, and those that are truly "successful' become those lawyers, and leaders of industry, and CEO's and if truly successful, politicians
I don't however, seperate business from personal, I am what I am and who I am with both those I love, and those I don't.
Cynicism can be your pal, in business dealings it will never be mine, I try not to deal with crooks, asshats and shysters, if I can't trust your word and your handshake, you are something less then a man to me, those unemployed lawyers can go fuck themselves, along with anyone else who tries to get away with whatever they can and who use those lawyers to get out of fair business practices like honoring their agreements, I just have zero respect for asshats that think stealing and calling it "just business" makes it OK, that look for loopholes and ways to get out of contracts rather then ways to honor them, I pay my guys a fair wage, I give my customers a fair deal, that is non-negotiable for me, I give a fair product for a fair wage I work a hard day and expect my full pay, and I pay my guys fairly, I am aware that in "business" for many all is fair, if they can successfully steal something they will, and smile and call it "just business", I don't seperate honor from my business dealings, although i know for those who view business as a competitive sport and try to "get away with anything they can" that is how they justify stealing to themselves and to others is by calling it "business", I am just not that person and I have zero desire to interact with those who do, as the blue lady says in Avatar, "We will now see if you can be cured of your insanity", lying, cheating and stealing, even if it is called "business" is insanity to me and therefore abhorrant
just sayin
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)
This is especially true for me as an alcoholic
-- Edited by AGO on Friday 18th of June 2010 05:46:34 AM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Ago, what you wrote reminds me of a group I had with my juvenile delinquent clients in the kid prison I work at. I was working with them on empathy and what they felt when they sold drugs. I asked if they had ever thought of how contributing to another persons addiction was hurtful....not to mention what it did to their communities. The repetitive response I got from them was "It's just business." This is what our society and capitalism would sometimes breed from 13 to 18 year old KIDS... Only caring about money and zero respect for human life, feelings, etc... I recognize my daily dealings with this population may be causing me to become jaded. Plus I know socialism is not utopia also... Shrug.
In sum, this all relates to being let down by others. I was told that most people have a self-serving bias. This means they interpret events and circumstances in their favor. For example, if someone looks at them on the street they think "I must look good today." I think many of us alcoholics would be more inclined to think "Why are they staring at me? WTF is wrong with them (or me)?" Anyhow, this would allow the majority of society to go along doing survival of the fittest things, stepping over each other, intepreting the truth wrongly in their favor and sometimes being unethical all for the purpose of monetary gain and ego preservation. Not saying alcoholics don't do this too sometimes, but in recovery at least we try to take ownership over it and make ammends. So here's to AA and us all trying to not go around treating other people like crap, but also not becoming so annoyed by the rest of society that we can't stand living here.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Well, I had to look up cynicism and YIKES...that's not what I want.
-An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others
The way I read that, that's exactly opposite of what I work for. I guess if I become a cynic then the expectations I place on others won't be a problem, because there probably won't be others in my life.
I won't be making cynicism my pal anytime soon, that's for sure!
-- Edited by Rainspa on Monday 21st of June 2010 02:49:29 AM
Stripes
Sergeant Hulka to "psycho"
great movie, heavily armed RV's are good fun, back when Bill Murphy, John Candy, Harold Ramis were all at the top of their game, Judge reinhold was a young-un in that movie, and also, Sean Young, who starred with Harrison Ford in Blade Runner, those are the only two movies I remember seeing her in
Anyhow refrain from giving me shitty non program advice about utilizing cynicism as my friend in dealing with passive aggressive unethical assholes and stick to your own experience, and we'll get along just fine
Also my name is Andrew, not Francis, and definately not Psycho, which is who Hulka is addressing when he calls him "Francis", so feel free to skip trying to be clever in our dealings in the future too, it doesn't suit you
Thanks
-- Edited by AGO on Monday 21st of June 2010 04:10:13 AM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
