I was at a meeting just recently and a man who was sober for 42 years made the following statement.
"I have been sober for 42 years and unless you have been sober for 43 years or longer you have absolutely nothing to offer me. You can't help me be sober for 43 years unless you have done it. I am here to offer experience, strength and hope to those who have not been sober for 42 years."
I have to confess he touched my hot button and I instantly got a resentment. Fortunately due to having worked the steps I paused and instead of jumping in with a What do you mean we got nothing for you? Type of opening barrage, I stayed silent. I let go of the resentment and started to do a lot of thinking about what he said. There is a certain logic to his statement but my mind that is always out to get me is having trouble accepting the premise that I or others at the meeting have nothing to offer him?
It probably bothers me because I am trying to get back into the drivers seat on this issue. You know, move over God let me show him the error of his ways.
I will have to do a lot more praying and meditation on this.
Larry, ------------------- The Monkey is off my back but the Circus is still in town
hot flash resentment lift finger to reply try to think of reply still thinking ...... ...
Then coming to the realization he's right, but then asking myself if he has what I want, and he might, I'd have to meet him
things stated bluntly or baldly often seem to be confrontational or prideful, when in many cases they are not, I learn from every person in the room, some by showing me what to do, some by showing me what not to do, I'd need to meet this man and listen to him more to find out what category he falls under, depending on the context he spoke simple truth or prideful arrogance, sometimes it's hard to know which without knowing the context in which he spoke.
One problem is there is too much emphasis placed on "time" in AA, I know waaay too many people who had too many years and not enough days, when that became the case for me, when I started counting years instead of days I got very very unhappy, forgot to do the things that were good for me and eventually drank.
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Larry, I'm not sure how I would've handled that. I think my impression would've been similiar to yours. To me it sounds like arrogance and a big ego. Maybe he can fly.... who knows. I know for me when I'm spiritual fit and have a calm head I can learn something from anyone, including newcomers.
I had a similiar issue regarding the drivers seat deal. I had an issue and learned I felt no control over the situation and my actions were all about trying to capture control. Push over God, I take this one on....... My sponsor pointed it out to me and suggested I turn it over to the one with all power and let him deal with... God will reveal more to us if there's more to reveal and if I listen I may see,hear or know his plan for me. What an idea. Gotta love the sponsor....
As my head cleared; To make matters woarse it was a minor issue that I had no control over and no need to react too. The resentment I had recruited some ammo from my character defect list and put together a nice little platoon. Most of it was delusional thinking and not a big deal.
Still learning & growing- Thank God.
-- Edited by Mike B. on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 12:34:06 PM
"I have been sober for 42 years and unless you have been sober for 43 years or longer you have absolutely nothing to offer me. You can't help me be sober for 43 years unless you have done it. I am here to offer experience, strength and hope to those who have not been sober for 42 years."
Hmm. Well if we assume that premise is true, then the following version of the statement would also be true:
"I have been sober for 2 weeks and unless you have been sober for 2 weeks or longer you have absolutely nothing to offer me. You can't help me be sober for 3 weeks unless you have done it. I am here to offer experience, strength and hope to those who have not been sober for 2 weeks."
Hmm, is it still true?
One wonders, at what milestone in sobriety one is qualified to make such statements. I know I'm not. Maybe 42 is the magic number. I'm halfway there, I'll let you know in another 21 years assuming I even remember the question.
hmmm...............first thought, what arrogance. second thought, what honesty. Without meeting the guy I'd have to reserve opinion.
Like a guy that shared tonight (mainshare) I'm xxxxx and I'm a recovered alcoholic.
First thought, recovered as one is from type 1 diabetes, second thought, recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body........which is what he qualfied it as.
I'm still jumping to conclusions.
__________________
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
hmmm...............first thought, what arrogance. second thought, what honesty. Without meeting the guy I'd have to reserve opinion.
I'm a pretty arrogant person about a lot of things, but I can't really think of any valid reason to be arrogant about my sobriety. I always fancied myself as being a pretty smart guy, with certain skills and opinions I believed were correct. I thought of myself as being clever and witty. None of those things got me sober, or keep me sober. Only that being sober, I have a chance to exercise those aspects of myself in more enjoyable ways. I'm not sober by divine right or my own brilliance - only because I've been given a gift. That's what I believe.
About all I can tell you about sobriety is my experience. One does not need intelligence nor arrogance to have experience. Just experience. My experience may or may not be of use to another alcoholic - whether he has more time than me or not. There are people who "got it" when it comes to the whole "God thing" almost from day one, there are some 40+ years sober who still haven't gotten it. I just don't see what time has to do with anything, OTHER than, accumulation of experience and more importantly - repeated experience. If someone sober 40 years tells me "this too shall pass", I believe him. More so than someone 30 days sober quoting his sponsor. But other than that, the idea that someone has to have more clock time than me to have anything of value to share with me is just nonsense.
hmmm...............first thought, what arrogance. second thought, what honesty. Without meeting the guy I'd have to reserve opinion.
I'm a pretty arrogant person about a lot of things, but I can't really think of any valid reason to be arrogant about my sobriety. I always fancied myself as being a pretty smart guy, with certain skills and opinions I believed were correct. I thought of myself as being clever and witty. None of those things got me sober, or keep me sober. Only that being sober, I have a chance to exercise those aspects of myself in more enjoyable ways. I'm not sober by divine right or my own brilliance - only because I've been given a gift. That's what I believe.
About all I can tell you about sobriety is my experience. One does not need intelligence nor arrogance to have experience. Just experience. My experience may or may not be of use to another alcoholic - whether he has more time than me or not. There are people who "got it" when it comes to the whole "God thing" almost from day one, there are some 40+ years sober who still haven't gotten it. I just don't see what time has to do with anything, OTHER than, accumulation of experience and more importantly - repeated experience. If someone sober 40 years tells me "this too shall pass", I believe him. More so than someone 30 days sober quoting his sponsor. But other than that, the idea that someone has to have more clock time than me to have anything of value to share with me is just nonsense.
Barisax
I was a Paramedic for a lot of years, they spent a great deal of time teaching me about communication and "objective"
We played that game "telephone" where you sit in a circle and whisper something to the person on your right, by the time it traveled around the room it no longer resembled what you had initilally stated. every single person put their own perception on it, every single person heard something a little different.
They taught me about SOAP
Subjective
Objective
Analysis
Plan
Subjective is always what we were told on the way to a call, and what we learned is it was always wrong, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little, but it was never objective information
So Subjective is what someone tells you
there was a car crash, there is someone injured
Objective is what you can measure and see with your own eyes
there is a car against a tree, the front is crumpled, the windshield is broken and there is a man with a cut on his head
Now is when context got important, is there skid marks before the tree? did he try to stop? The real question is why did he crash? Did he have a stroke? A Heart attack? it's fairly embaressing to bandage up a patient and be taking him to the hospital and have him die, causes no end of paperwork.
So today it's not I don't trust subjective, I just don't bank on it, why did this man say what he said? what was the context of his statement?
It appears he was arrogant, but without being there and seeing everything and watching context, I don't know, and one thing I have learned it's not to jump on bandwagons based on hearsay, I have a PHD in looking like an ASS from doing that, 137 times bitten twice shy
guy might be an a**hole
he might not
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
well afterall, 42 is the answer to Life, The Universe and Everything! (plz someone know what im talking about lol)
anyways, if he went to my meetings loads of people would have shared along the lines how its not the time up that matters, etc, the person who got up earliest this morning is the one longest sober etc.
The guy did not seem arrogant at all it was presented like it was just a fact no more no less.
He did not seem to me to be boasting or showing pride when he stated it
I am usually pretty good at identifying those attitudes because I used to be that way.
Larry, ---------------------- You can't B**S** a Bu**S**tt*r
Well truthfully he sounds like an "oofer"
you know the one where every time he opens his mouth you look at the person next to you and go "oof"
we have a couple of doozies, my favorite is this guy Jerry, always goes on and on how stupid and messed up newcomers are, look at their glazed expressions, look how they can't string thoughts together, they can't help being so stupid, they're newcomers he goes on and on.
He gets called on I run outside to catch the stream of newcomers pouring out the door
well afterall, 42 is the answer to Life, The Universe and Everything! (plz someone know what im talking about lol)
BUT WHAT IS THE QUESTION????????
Hmm, that will take some "deep thought"
it's kind of like being drunk
that doesn't sound so bad
you ever ask a glass of water how it felt?
anyways, if he went to my meetings loads of people would have shared along the lines how its not the time up that matters, etc, the person who got up earliest this morning is the one longest sober etc.
aaah yes the flip side to the whole inane time worship in AA, equally ridiculous IMO, it what one does with their day that is important, not what time they got up nor how long it's been since their last drink
Oh well, so long and thanks for all the fish, I'll be at the restaurant at the end of the universe if anyone needs me
-- Edited by AGO on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 05:14:26 PM
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Shut the door on HP ever using anyone other than a older fellow to help him save his butt. Hope that older person is having a good day at the time and doesn't have it in for youngsters. LOL It's all attitude isn't it?
If what this guy said was true, then while he was alive Bill W. would have been in trouble. I mean who in AA had more time sober to show Bill W. how to do it. Obviously no one but Bill did stay sober.
The guy at the meeting must have been wrong.
Larry, ------------- Sorrow is looking back,worry is looking around
If what this guy said was true, then while he was alive Bill W. would have been in trouble. I mean who in AA had more time sober to show Bill W. how to do it. Obviously no one but Bill did stay sober.
The guy at the meeting must have been wrong.
Larry, ------------- Sorrow is looking back,worry is looking around
Not disagreeing with you Larry, discussing
Bill and Bob stayed sober by passing on what they had learned
they learned you can't keep it if you don't give it away
Give what away?
What they had learned from those before them
I wouldn't be the one to go give Bill advice, and ESPECIALLY not Bob
I think there is a difference between "you don't have what I want" and "you can't teach me anything" and I can't learn anything from you
Bill actually had to go outside the fellowship for a sponsor after Ebby relapsed (i think, this is memory from long ago) and he used Father Ed Dowling I believe who contributed greatly to the 12 and 12, especially steps 5 through 7 the way I remember it from my reading
Bill and Bob definately learned quite a bit from their "pigeons" as a matter of fact the "flying blind" chapter of AA is hilarious, the 13th step was written before the first 12 by AA's very first woman alcoholic (who later went on to get sober and married NOT in AA "proving" AA wasn't for everyone)
There was a man we'll call "Victor," a former mayor of Akron, and a lady we'll call "Lil," who was the first woman to seek help.
Together, Victor and the lady known as Lil started out to write the "thirteenth step," long before the first twelve were ever thought of. What is more, they say it began in Dr. Bob's office-on his examination table-while he was at the City Club engaged in his sacrosanct Monday-night bridge game.
In any case, Victor decided it was time for him to go home-but Lil was loaded. So he called Ernie to explain the predicament. When Ernie arrived, he saw Lil grab a handful of little pills from Dr. Bob's cabinet.
"We started going around the examination table, and she was trying to get the pills in her mouth," Ernie recalled. "Then she made a dive for the window. I caught her halfway out. She was strong as a horse and used some profanity I never heard before or since.
"I got her quieted, and Doc came. We took her out to Ardmore Avenue and put her in a room in the basement. She stayed there two or three days, and then her people took her home. Of course, they were never too kind about it and thought we didn't handle her right. But we felt we had done all we could for her when she wasn't helping herself any."
They say Dr. Bob was leery of anything to do with women alcoholics for a long time thereafter, although he still tried to help as best as he could with any who came along. And Bill Wilson, speaking with Sue Windows in the 1950's, recalled how they all were scandalized by the episode.
"As drunks, I don't know why we should have been," Bill said. "But we felt that the performance of some of those early people coming in would disrupt us
At the end of the day it's our defects that bind us together, not our accomplishments, the "still suffering alcoholic" frequently has many decades of sobriety, I have watched many of my friends go through many phases, and there are still only a handful out of thousands I will contort to avoid, once again my friends are always STILL amazed when I go to the "hardliners" camp and welcomed with hugs, we are considered MOTR (Middle of the road)
-- Edited by AGO on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 06:11:30 PM
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
If what this guy said was true, then while he was alive Bill W. would have been in trouble. I mean who in AA had more time sober to show Bill W. how to do it. Obviously no one but Bill did stay sober.
The guy at the meeting must have been wrong.
Larry, ------------- Sorrow is looking back,worry is looking around
Not disagreeing with you Larry, discussing
Bill and Bob stayed sober by passing on what they had learned
they learned you can't keep it if you don't give it away
Give what away?
What they had learned from those before them
I wouldn't be the one to go give Bill advice, and ESPECIALLY not Bob
I think there is a difference between "you don't have what I want" and "you can't teach me anything" and I can't learn anything from you
Bill actually had to go outside the fellowship for a sponsor after Ebby relapsed (i think, this is memory from long ago) and he used Father Ed Dowling I believe who contributed greatly to the 12 and 12, especially steps 5 through 7 the way I remember it from my reading
Bill and Bob definately learned quite a bit from their "pigeons" as a matter of fact the "flying blind" chapter of AA is hilarious, the 13th step was written before the first 12 by AA's very first woman alcoholic (who later went on to get sober and married NOT in AA "proving" AA wasn't for everyone)
There was a man we'll call "Victor," a former mayor of Akron, and a lady we'll call "Lil," who was the first woman to seek help.
Together, Victor and the lady known as Lil started out to write the "thirteenth step," long before the first twelve were ever thought of. What is more, they say it began in Dr. Bob's office-on his examination table-while he was at the City Club engaged in his sacrosanct Monday-night bridge game.
In any case, Victor decided it was time for him to go home-but Lil was loaded. So he called Ernie to explain the predicament. When Ernie arrived, he saw Lil grab a handful of little pills from Dr. Bob's cabinet.
"We started going around the examination table, and she was trying to get the pills in her mouth," Ernie recalled. "Then she made a dive for the window. I caught her halfway out. She was strong as a horse and used some profanity I never heard before or since.
"I got her quieted, and Doc came. We took her out to Ardmore Avenue and put her in a room in the basement. She stayed there two or three days, and then her people took her home. Of course, they were never too kind about it and thought we didn't handle her right. But we felt we had done all we could for her when she wasn't helping herself any."
They say Dr. Bob was leery of anything to do with women alcoholics for a long time thereafter, although he still tried to help as best as he could with any who came along. And Bill Wilson, speaking with Sue Windows in the 1950's, recalled how they all were scandalized by the episode.
"As drunks, I don't know why we should have been," Bill said. "But we felt that the performance of some of those early people coming in would disrupt us
At the end of the day it's our defects that bind us together, not our accomplishments, the "still suffering alcoholic" frequently has many decades of sobriety, I have watched many of my friends go through many phases, and there are still only a handful out of thousands I will contort to avoid, once again my friends are always STILL amazed when I go to the "hardliners" camp and welcomed with hugs, we are considered MOTR (Middle of the road)
-- Edited by AGO on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 06:11:30 PM
I agree with you Andrew. The guy at the meeting has a flawed premise. We get sober by helping others. Not by having someone show us the way. Although we do need guidance. The real secret of sobriety is to help others.
Larry, ------------------ God makes three requests of his children : Do the best you can, where you are, with what you have, now.
My thought would be, fine - I won't try to offer you anything. *big shrug*
Not that I would have tried anyway, at least not intentionally - though I am always humbled when someone with more sobriety time tells me they like what I shared in a meeting.
In the case of this particular old-timer, what he says is probably true - because whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right. So if he thinks nobody with less sobriety time can give him anything, his mind probably will be closed to that possibility.
I personally like old-timers who say that they are trying to remain teachable, and I hope that if I ever have 42 years of sobriety, that's what I'll be saying.
-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 09:04:48 PM
I might have something he wants............................ that being the ability to say something remarkably HONEST and truthful, when, as with ALL alcoholics, his still-alcoholic head starts THINKING about something false. Happens to all of us, I don't give a crap who you are or how long you have been sober. I have seen the oldest and crustiest of old farts thank newcomers wholeheartedly for reminding them of something their thinker had "forgot". 42 years sober is not the cutoff whereby a recovering alcoholic no longer thinks like an alcoholic sometimes, whether that be ABOUT alcohol or about something else trivial but important to matters of the spirit.
So to this man, hats off to him...... and God-forbid, if his mind ever gets him in a real pickle someday, and he keeps his ears shut because the last 2 guys he knew with 43 years sober are either dead or dribbling on themselves in their recliner, he might just make a mistake because he wasn't willing to LISTEN with an open mind, to the voice of reason, which often come swhere we least expect it. Even from thsoe without 40 years sober, even from those with less than 24 hours. God works in mysterious (and yet practical) WAYS.
g'nite.
__________________
~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
