I have never attended an NA meeting as I never used or abused drugs. I certainly could have but Alcohol did what I needed in the beginning and it was my drug of choice.
I have gotten to know several NA members that attend AA even though they did not use or abuse alcohol. They seem right at home and I can relate to thier sharing other than the using.
Observing them my question to toss out to our MIP members is. Is the obsession part of our disease, you know the insane thinking part. Is it the same disease for both NA and AA?
I realize the physical addiction has differences but have been wondering if the mental obsession is the same?
If any one has experience I would like to hear it.
Thanks,
Larry, ----------------------------------- Keep your sobriety first to make it last
Hey! I spent years not drinking because I was addicted to perscription pain killers. I spent 300 a week on them. For ME the addiction to pain killers was a million times stronger than booze. But it was a physical addiction and I would literally get "sick" if I didn't have them. That doesn't happen to me with booze. I never attended an NA meeting and actually did kick the addiction on my own which was hands down the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I guess I don't completely understand the question but I'm sure I can answer it.....
I try to stay out controversies I have no experience with...like...being an addict, rather then telling someone what they aren't, I can only ascertain if they are like me
An Alcoholic
I don't believe alcoholism is a disease of addiction, because if I quit the drug I am addicted to, I am no longer addicted, if I stop drinking alcohol I am still an alcoholic, alcohol was only a symptom, with addiction the addiction is the symptom.
I have a friend who is in NA who got addicted to Meth a few times, he can occasionally have a beer and does, it's just when he does meth for long enough he gets addicted, when he quits doing meth he reverts to normal.
I don't have a "drug of choice" I have a "drug of no choice", I literally couldn't face life without alcohol, to me that is the difference, if you have a drug of choice you are an addict, if you have no choice but to drink no matter how long the interval between drinks, you are an alcoholic, you can be addicted to alcohol and still not be an alcoholic.
If I did other drugs I still had to drink, but if I drank, I didn't have to do other drugs, I didn't have a choice when it came to drinking, thus I don't have a "drug of choice", I had no choice in the matter, I had to drink no matter what.
On another forum a man writes:
The bigger problem with these various identifications in AA is it lumps them all under the umbrella of addiction. Addition is not a requirement to be an alcoholic. The Big Book talks about the person who is a hard drinker and may not be an alcoholic and the person that may not be a continuous hard drinker that is. The book refers to the hard drinker as the guy with the habit which was the popular term for an addict in the 1930s. One of the definitions of habit in the dictionary is; addiction to drugs, and/or just plain addiction.
To lump all of them together is another problem and that is the term a disease of addiction. Many drug addicts can control their drinking or not drink at all, and also not over eat or be a compulsive gambler. Many overeaters may not like drugs, drinking or gambling. And with alcoholics the same applies. Some alcoholics will do drugs but differently than a drug addict and usually in combination with drinking. A drug addict has to control his drug use and one time they dont they can die of an overdose. An alcoholic has progressive times when he has no control whatsoever. Basically when we lump them altogether we have two people in the same program where one person can do something that may kill the other one. In this case identification becomes a death sentence.
The Big Book actually asks that we discard the feeling of alcoholism as an addiction on page 140; Can you discard the feeling that you are dealing only with habit, with stubbornness, or a weak will? If this presents difficulty, re-reading chapters two and three, where the alcoholic sickness is discussed at length might be worth while.
In the main text of our Big Book it doesnt define alcoholism but rather describes the alcoholic. We really dont need to have non-alcoholics describing to us symptoms of what our illness is. For the real alcoholic we know why we are here. We either couldnt prevent the insanity that precedes the first drink or we had no control over the amount we drank once we took a drink. On illness is about no choice in whether we drink or not and no control once we start to drink and this is the case whether we drink daily or once a year. Again addiction is not a requirement to be an alcoholic.
Me again:
It's not from not doing drugs, I smoked pot every day for 15 years, at one point was injured and did copious amounts of morphine for a few months, did Ex, uppers, downers, acid, shrooms, I did coke weighed by the ounce, not the gram, I put needles in my arms, pills in my butt, I didn't care, my life literally resembled Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, the first book I ever read where I encountered someone who partied like me by the way
I just was never an addict, I was a garbage can alcoholic
Nothing affected me the way alcohol did, nothing turned off the "the off switch" the way alcohol did, nothing snowballed the way alcohol did, I didn't swear off drugs every day for years and do them by lunch because I had a compulsion I couldn't control with drugs.
The difference for me was I did a "dose" of drugs and stopped until another "dose" was called for, with alcohol that was reversed, the drunker I got the more I drank, at the beginning of the night I would have a beer, maybe a beer and a shot, by the end of the night I was drinking drinks with 5-6 shots of alcohol in them and snarling at the bartender to "put some F'ing booze in it this time"
My father drank every day for 30 years, he woke up in the morning and cracked a beer, he drank 30-40 beers a day for as long as I lived with him, 20 years+
When ill health threatened he stopped drinking for 10 years, then started drinking moderately, he now drinks moderately, his experience with alcohol was different then mine, although I drank enough to float the Titanic, he drank enough to float his own Battleship game using the entire US Pacific Fleet including aircraft carriers and nuke subs.
His experience was different then mine, I could drink 2-3 heavy drinkers under the table every night in a row bartending, I would drink 40-50 drinks a night while working, and frequently did, he drank me under the table easily.
Yet he wasn't an alcoholic.
I did enough Cocaine and drugs to carry off Danny Bonneduce and the rest of the Partridge family, yet was never an addict.
So although the solution may be the same, the problem as I see it is different, I can't "Identify" addicts, nor can they identify with me, although we can identify fully when it comes to the solution.
I identify with alcoholics, because I am one, I don't identify with addicts, because I am not one.
Once we are on the same path, we can identify and have the same solution, but for carrying out a groups primary purpose a non alcoholic addict is as useless in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous as all those therapists and counselors the judges kept sending me to because:
the ex-problem drinker who has found this solution, who is properly armed with facts about himself, can generally win the entire confidence of another alcoholic in a few hours. Until such an understanding is reached, little or nothing can be accomplished.
That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty, that he obviously knows what he is talking about, that his whole deportment shouts at the new prospect that he is a man with a real answer, that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful; that there are no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured these are the conditions we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again.
It took another alcoholic to get through to this alcoholic, and that's all I can pass on.
No worries, it doesn't matter what drugs you did, or what problems you have, I found AA works for all alcoholics regardless of their circumstances or other addictions, we even have open meetings for non alcoholics to visit and listen, and I hear in every meeting
"Welcome, if you have a problem with alcohol, you are in the right place"
So I don't know, I am not an "addict" except when it comes to cigarettes
-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 2nd of May 2010 01:32:53 PM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Oblong answers the question perfectly, thanks Oblong
Oblong wrote:
Hey! I spent years not drinking because I was addicted to perscription pain killers. I spent 300 a week on them. For ME the addiction to pain killers was a million times stronger than booze. But it was a physical addiction and I would literally get "sick" if I didn't have them. That doesn't happen to me with booze.
I never attended an NA meeting and actually did kick the addiction on my own which was hands down the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I guess I don't completely understand the question but I'm sure I can answer it.....
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Hey Larry! Heres my share on this.My first recovery period started with a sponsor from AA who had over 25 years sober ,he actually worked for me.After 25 years of "addiction"I surrendered in '84 and he took me to meetings and basically called all my BS.I also stopped in rooms of NA because I was also a heavy drug user(garbage head,meaning all drugs available and a mid level dealer.We never worked steps and I guess I wasn't actually ready to hear about spiritual principles.Seems kind of impossible but that's my story.Anyway my sponsor Bob,died approx. a year later and I just drifted away from both fellows ships,still sober and clean but not doing any work.In '86 I accepted the God of my understanding and walked very closely with Him,although still trying to con God and myself.You see I never knew if I was a drug addict that used alcohol or an alcoholic who used drugs.Every instance of jails,institutions and so many close calls to death were drug or alcohol related .Usually both.Fast forward 20 years,life still clean/sober,but a mess.My 17 year old son now a hardcore IV heroin abuser,jails ,institutions and basically dead and revived a couple times,Robbed everything in site,wreaked havoc in the family ,just like I did for 25 years of myself and all those around me.Finally my life is falling apart rapidly,thoughts of getting twisted forgetting it all,get away from responsiblities,forget kids,marriage(married 3x already) work(31 yrs at job,ready to pack it) etc,all signs of mental relapse.You see i'm still clean and sober but almost as bad shape as my using days.I become member of Naranon,(over 3 years ago)similar to AL-'anon only for famileis of addicts.I end up back in the rooms of NA AND it finally dawns on me that for all these years I didnt realize that im really a person who suffers from the disease of 'ADDICTION;manifests in all areas of my life.Sort of like a awakening/Once in the rooms I immediately went to 'work' got a new sponsor , make meetings, done my steps ,speak around when asked ,sponsor others and am living the program of recovery.We suffer from a physical,spiritual and mental disease that manifests itself in all areas of our lives.I no longer try to figure it out I know what I suffer from,but I am very careful not to violate out traditions(6th) and implying outside endorsements for respect to both fellowships.Our 10th tradition tells us that anything is sharing material as long as it is not opinion and it is based on your experience.That it is not devisive(tearing group apart) and that it is stated when you share, that not the message of fellowship but your own experience.For example .cancer may be an outside issue,but if it affects my recovery ,I let you know its not of opinion but my experience and I let you know its not the fellowships total message but this is whats its doing to my recovery,it it sharing material.There are lines that traditions and group conscience will probably debate and studying of traditions and concepts are as important I believe as the steps.My only focus here is to share my experience,strength and hope with others,carry our 5th tradition message of recovery and I am a member of all 3 fellowships based on our 3rd tradition.Didn't mean to ramble but its been a long,blessed journey of recovery only through the grace and mercy of the God of my understanding.I know for sure 1 thing ,I CAN NEVER USE ANY MIND ALTERING MOOD CHANGING SUBSTANCE(WHICH INCLUDES ALCOHOL)OR I WILL DIE..My life is based on my 3rd and 11th step daily ,before I get out of bed and I try and give back what was given so freely to me.You see my God knew there was something else I needed beside me trying to just self sponsor and not have the fellowship be my earthly guide.This is a WE program..For too many years,drifting dangerously back to devastation ,I fought on my own.I have always said Recovery and Abstinence are light years apart.Thank God im in recovery with the help of the fellowship.I am truly blessed and try and live my life according to what God has intended for me,Like I said He just is leaving the details up to me and Im glad Im finally listening.... when I first came to our forum here I was a little skeptical as not to "blur the message' but from my heart I know That you never have to drink again and that is our message and That I can share thru my ESH and the guidance of God! holy mackeral what a purge!!!:)have a blessed day!
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
Larry and I are PM'ing about this, I just wrote this, it expands on my experience:
I know addicts that can drink safely, I know addicts that can't, I think not only do we have many types of alcoholics, but multiply that by uppers, downers, and opiates, some addicts need the spiritual experience, some don't, some addicts have gone beyond human aid, some haven't, just like with alcoholics, some can get and stay sober with just group therapy and changing their habits (doing 90 in 90) and some need a spiritual experience.
I don't mind "anda's" in AA, I believe they exist, many many of my friends are "anda's" and I have heard their stories and watched their struggles, I have seen they all needed the spiritual experience from the steps, I believe they are important, incredibly important to have in AA, I don't believe in the whole "pure alcoholic" but I believe in the "real alcoholic" (anda's being alkie/addict) if that makes sense, in all my years of AA I have only met one alcoholic that never put any drug in his system other then alcohol
like xxxxx and xxxx, (members here at MIP) I think are "alcoholic/addicts", they put any mind or mood altering substance in their system and they are off to the races, now I'm just an alcoholic, but the same is true with me, if I smoke pot, or do opiates (to get loaded) that will trigger the obsession
I try to stay out of the controversy part of it because I believe there is a great deal of crossover, dual addictions etc, but there are differences as well, the only addicts I don't relate to are the ones that aren't alcoholic, my boss is one of those, 20 years sober in NA and has a beer on occasion
He can smoke a cigarette and not get addicted, drink a beer and not think about it for months, he doesn't have an addictive personality except when it comes to methamphetamines, whereas although I am an alcoholic, I have an "addictive personality", I put something like that in my system and I am screwed, however, when injured I can take opiate pain meds as prescribed, but I take precautions, use as directed and talk to other sober alcoholics
I don't relate to him in the slightest, he and his addict wife both attend closed meetings of alcoholics anonymous and share at group level even though neither of them have a desire to stop drinking, in fact both of them drink.
I don't say anything to anyone ever, but if I were secretary I would be forced to ask them not to share as a trusted servant to uphold the group conscience, as a participant, it's not my place to say anything.
My sister is a junkie, she drinks alcoholically (to get loaded), but is not an alcoholic, she goes for years at a time without picking up, picks up, dabbles and pretty soon is addicted, she doesn't need the spiritual experience to recover, the group aspect of it works for her, then when she stops with the group a few years later she returns to drugs.
Some alcoholic addicts I know have alcoholism as one of their addictions, I believe they are alcoholic, they qualify in every sense of the word, but they also qualify as addicts as well.
Much is inside my experience, much is outside
It's tricky stuff
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Hi everyone! well I kinda of thought after I posted my thoughts here that it may go against the grain somewhat.I actually posted before I saw others.But I firmly believe that 'HONESTY is the antidote to diseased thinking " and I always try to be honest.That said,I truly have digested what has been written and humbly always remain open to suggestion as we say "hard to graft a new thought on a closed mind.I do know one thing for me personally as it states in the Dr's opinion (my book 3rd edition pgxxviii)that all the symptoms of classification of the alcoholic my onesymptom was always developing the phenomenon of craving,the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates us from other people.The only relief was entire abstinence from the first drink or drinking.Once started I could not stop without reaching blackout or pass out.I would wake shaking and drink to settle down.Using drugs allowed me to drink more than you would think humanly possible and I would also crave drugs upon coming to.For me,I know ,like I said I cannot take that "first one' in either area.As you can see this has been a confusing area for me also.I only know I am very sick and can never drink or drug again.I love the way the Big Book ends with this next to last paragraph"(pg164)says Our book is meant to be suggestive only!We realize we know little.God will constantly disclose more to you and to us.Ask Him in your morning meditations what you can do each day for the man who is still sick.The answers will come,if your own house is in order.You cannot transmit something you haven't got,see to it your relationship with Him is right and great events will come to pass for you and countless others.This is the Great Fact for us! Amen I say...I totally respect everyone's ESH because by listening its how I stay well and learn. I willl abandon myself to God as I understand God and my path will be directed for that I am sure.Thanks everyone for letting me free myself,because that is also how I remain sober for "one more day at a time"I agree with Oblong,I love this board also!!!:)
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
in all my years of AA I have only met one alcoholic that never put any drug in his system other then alcohol
Congratulations now you have met two unless of course you count aspirin, tylenol and antibiotics. I don't remember any of them causing me to get a divorce or sleep on my lawn (LOL)
Thanks for the insight because I was puzzeled about the fellow I met from NA at our AA meeting. His sharing described quite well my early sobriety alcoholic thinking patterns.
That surprised me. It is probably a good thing that I did not experiment. I have no doubt what so ever that I could have got into other stuff. I what I have is called by some an addictive personality.
Larry ------- If you turn it over and don't let go of it,you will be upside down.
-- Edited by Larry_H on Sunday 2nd of May 2010 03:32:02 PM
My name is Dean and I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict (amongst other things ). Imo, for the most part it's the same disease but add that most drugs are illegal and that adds some elements to the feelings about it. Also drug addiction can be extremely expensive compared to alcohol so the addict is often compelled by their disease to beg, borrow, steal and otherwise demean themselves in order to feed their addiction adding a great deal of burnt bridges and shame over the same. I also see a lot of depression from burn out and complicated mental imbalances from so much mood altering. I was one of the lucky ones that favored alcohol and used drugs to essential enable me to drink more. It appears to me that us alcoholics, on average, might have an easier road.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Sunday 2nd of May 2010 04:17:17 PM
Dont know if this would fit the NA profile....I was cross addicted.....did increasing amounts of Presciption Valium.
Drinking at night, Valium in the morning, probably two, to offset the hangovers.....vicous circle. They were very interconnected....
It started out as valid, I had a stalker, a real one, and could not sleep for no more that 2 hours a night.....lived with so much fear, and really cut my drinking almost to 0 at that time.....then things changed.....moved out of that house, but was now very addicted to Valium, and just kept getting the Rx filled, I must say that I always felt like it was sort of OK, cause I thought my Doctor was a very conservative doctor....
Well soon after, my drinking picked up to where i had left it, and soon discovered that Valium in the Morning with Coffee, really helped to be almost "hang over free" I did not know what I know now, that Valium is like a Brain Frosting.....
When I moved up to Seattle, I visited with an OB/GYN, for a problem I was having and told him that it was my own OB/GYN in California had prescribed Valium for many years.
This new Doc, his words.." Well Toni, I will fill this one time only, but I will not become your new drug dealer"....I was so busted.
That man to this day, probably was responsible for this "drunk" and saving her life.....
I did not know much about withdrawal, but one day I just said Screw it, and I flushed the twenty or so I had left, down the toilet. well if you read what Oblong wrote, hands down the hardest withdrawal and the most horrible side effects of cold turkey withdrawal.....that lasted for several weeks could not function for over a month and then some... I have read articles that say that kicking Valium is in the same family as Heroin, I believe that.....
When I stopped drinking - very different story altogether, going to a meeting everyday and listening. Did that for over a year, dont think I spoke for at least 6 months, due to the devastation of what I had done to my body, mind and spirit, with the over 12 years of drinking.......but slowly began to start to feel better. and better.... and better....
So to me quiting a drug and quiting drinking are miles apart.
As far as when I have talked to hundreds of others in the Rooms of, crossed addicted to anything, cocaine, that was a big one where I lived. Prescription, non prescription, I came away with that little motto that I like to use....A drug is a drug is a drug....is a drug....is a drug....I am of course including alcohol...Any mind altering drug...
I just wanted to say I have really enjoyed reading all your thougths, and personally I liked Mikef the most...cause it just fit into my own little way of putting things ....as in a drug is a drug is a drug.....Thank You Mike for your honesty and your Truth.
Just one boat, we all hang on, try to stay in the middle of the boat, and if we feel we are getting too close to the edge, we aim straight for the center.....with Prayer, one day at a time.
Love you all and hope my share fit into this AA - NA thread.
I too am a bonafide alcoholic, and a drug addict. I don't see a whole lot of difference in what I did with alcohol, and what I did with drugs, or what each has contributed to the misery I have experienced senselessly throughout a lot of my life. I made general and small mention of drugs when I have shared or given a "lead", because of this one reason: I was an alcoholic first who, in my alcoholism and in a drunken state, made the poor decision to try a particular drug that I also became addicted to (much like I am addicted to alcohol. Yes, I am ADDICTED to alcohol.) Addiction is addiction. And it shouldn't be classified in 12 step programs as " Drugs vs. alcohol", because all drugs are not the same either. Cocaine addiction is very different from Opiate addiction as far as the physical withdrawal and the high itself. But one common thread between these two and alcohol as well, is the mental obsession. And the physical craving. When I drink alcohol I have to have more. When I use cocaine I have to have more. When I am not drinking or using I think about using both. Taking one drink or one hit or one pill or one shot or one smoke or one snort creates a physical craving and a mental obsession, for an addict or an alcoholic. I have dreams about alochol and drugs as well. I have nearly destroyed my life- time and time again- with both alcohol and drugs. People argue that not all people who drink alcohol are alcoholics, but all people who take drugs are drug addicts. Not so. I have met and (tried to) get high with several people in the past, people whom I spent a lot of time with regardless of what we were doing, who tried cocaine over and over again and did not get addicted to it. It did not destroy their lives. They could do it once or twice a year and then put it down, and they could do a few lines and be done with it. They did not follow it to the gates of insanity and the clink like I did. They did not even act the same high as I did. It affected me differently, just like alcohol affects alcoholics differently. And they were not alcoholics either. Interesting.
I tried heroin when I was younger and did not get mentally addicted to it. I did it enough over the course of a month to become physically addicted to it, but after I got sick of getting sick I did nOT do it nor not think about doing it again. Heroin is obviously very dangerous and illegal and also destroys lives. But one could argue that "was I not like the social drinker who could imbibe and even overdo it for a period of time, but then quit with no second thought about it?" (Please don't ever try heroin, by the way.... just felt I would add that... I only mention this "having just been able to put it down" for the sake of argument.) I really like what Dean said about he cultural differences between alcohol which is legal, and street drugs, which aren't. How the culture of illegality as made it dangerous and expensive to get drugs.... but remember prohibition? Having to go to speakeasies to get alcohol, and the gangsters and the violence behind the illegal alcohol trade?
Both alcohol and drugs have made me spiritually sick, and mentally sick, and physically sick, and emotionally sick. And working the 12 steps helps me not to do any of it, and have a better life. (And I have to KEEP doing those steps, as I recently found out when I thought I was "cured" after a couple of years sober, a couple of times.)
When I am at a meeting I usually just introduce myself as "Joni, alcoholic". Why? Because I like to keep it somple. Here in Akron people are becoming more tolerant at AA meetings. (Tolerance... imagine that.) Most people I know are too busy trying to carry the message to be bothered with labels or picking at people who use a different one than them. Many say, "It is not as important how you got here, as it is THAT YOU GOT HERE." No addict in an AA meeting has poisoned the alcoholic's ability to stay sober by working the steps. Contrary to the warnings of the AA's who are afraid of addicts being in meetings, addicts have not "killed" the AA program or changed it in any way for the worse. And their numbers at AA meetings are in the many thousands. I often wonder if Bill W. and Dr. Bob had realized that their 12 step program was going to SAVE so many lives, even lives of people who are not alcoholics. I wonder if they would think it a big deal to quibble over the labels. I wonder if they wouldn't fall down on their knees and rejoice even moreso that the 12 Steps can help ALL people. I wonder if Dr. Bob was still secretly using drugs even though he was sober in AA. I doubt that he was. I bet that even though Dr. Bob RELAPSED (another word some of the self-proclaimed "elite" are afraid of), if the AA program not only helped him to again get and stay sober, but helped him stay "clean" as well. What a blessing that our 2 Founders represented all of us. Pure alcoholics and alcoholic-addicts alike.
(I have literally been cussed out by a longtime "elite" AA member who was foaming at the mouth and spitting on me because I called him on his crap when he boldly told a newcomer that "this is an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, and addicts are going to destroy it, you know. This is a closed meeting, If you are not an alcoholic you need to leave". I had several years sober at the time. I was calm. I showed him the story that used to be called "Doctor, Alcoholic Addict". It talked about the man shooting up drugs, right there in the Big Book! Months later, to my surprise the same man who yelled at the newcomer and me sincerely apologized to me. Little wonder that after the story had been called that for decades, the "powers that be" changed the name to omit the word addict, but it is still the very same story with the very same shooting up scenes in it.... And they can't really omit the story, though I am sure some would like that, because it is the very story that talks about: "And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today".... etc... now on pg. 417. LOL The message itself outweighs the quibbling controversialists.) This is the difference between "AA the Official Organization" (and alcoholics shouldn't really be "official anything" if you think about it) and "AA the Program". I choose to go to meetings and give the program a try and hopefully console and tell the truth and give hope to another sufferer, not for the Organization's Official This and That. Put a bunch of addicts in charge of anything, sober or not, and this is what you get. Decades of controversy.
I do say I am an alcoholic/addict when I am at a newcomer's meeting, because I don't want any addict newcomer to think they are the only one at the meeting who identifies themself like that (and therefore they can't say that they are unique) and as a result, thinks he or she doesn't belong there or something. My very second AA meeting was a women's meeting where I was ashamed because in my AA naivety I mentioned drugs and "cross-talked" and was snapped at bitterly by someone having a bad day. I cried and left the round table during the neeting because my crying was a distraction. No one offered me any advice or a hand exteneded after the meeting was over, as I sat on the church steps and watched the women leave in their cars, one by one. Incidentally, I vowed NEVER to let this happen to a newcomer, being all alone and crying and ignored in a group of supposedly "spritually minded people", if I am present, again.
I leave the Service Work folk in charge of the "singleness of purpose" stuff. I would probably be the WORST person to ever do that stuff, as I am convinced that were I to get even 15 years of sobriety, I might still do what I would do today, which would be to jump up on the table and scream "WHO THE F%&*$ CARES!!! NEW PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING SO GET FU&%^$* BUSY AND QUIT ARGUING ABOUT THE DUMB SH*&!!!" Not a good or helpful way to try to discuss and follow traditions. But I know that my singleness of purpose is to stay CLEAN and SOBER, and to hopefully to help someone there who wants a better life and a God of their understanding, regardless of their drug of choice. If anyone did get upset about my identifying myself the way I want to, they can keep complaining and I will simply smile and keep coming back regardless, because this is where I belong. After all, it's not about the differences. Not about the chemical reactions. It is about causes and conditions, and spiritual sickness turning into spiritual wellness.
joni
-- Edited by jonijoni1 on Monday 3rd of May 2010 02:30:52 AM
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
I can't believe they left you crying on the stairs. That breaks my heart. I VOW that if I ever see someone crying on the stairs after an AA meeting I will talk to them.
Morning Larry well it looks as if we all got to know each other a little better over the weekend!,what a blessing.Lets get to work,continue carrying the message of hope and go With God on this day and every day we are blessed to have been granted>
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Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.
It does make me sad there is controversy about this, it makes me sad that so very many people attending AA "leave it to the service people" and don't take the time to learn our traditions, and then get mad at those very same people they leave to run the meetings, make the coffee, chair and secretary, serve as GSR, serve as area and regional reps and call them "elitist" when they try to explain what The Program is and isn't.
It's my opinion that we ALL have a responsibility to study the traditions and become "the service people" and help newcomers and do service in our groups, that is what members do.
To me it is as simple as an election, if you don't vote and participate in an election process then you are allowed to have an opinion, it just carries no weight, it has no merit, the same is true of AA, if you don't participate, learn the Traditions, get into service, serve as GSR, as secretary, as coffee maker etc and attend business meetings then don't get angry when groups make decisions you aren't happy with.
We all have an equal voice in AA, we have no leaders, we listen to the minority opinion, and each groups safeguards it's members with:
"For our group purpose, there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience."
If you don't express yourself in a group conscience and listen to others do so at business meetings it's ridiculous to get angry and make a lot of drama with decisions you don't agree with.
It's very very sad when alcoholics are derided for being alcoholics at meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and called dirty names for trying to insure the continuity of this program by following the traditions. In my home area I see alcoholics opening "underground meetings" and more and more old timers wandering away from the program and in some areas groups are breaking away from the service structure of AA, not listing their meetings in the schedule as the result of this squabble.
I am watching more and more of my oldtimer AA friends either only doing underground meetings are just not going to meetings at all any more, and the truth is, they ALL did drugs, LOTS of drugs, but they feel many meetings are turning into group therapy open to anything and anybody, which quite frankly, literally isn't AA.
Folks on both side of this issue frequently behave poorly, both sides get angry and frightened and call each other derogatory names such as Bleeding Deacons, Elites etc.
That's not Tradition One, it's just not, our common welfare must come first or we all sicken and die, every issue we face is covered in masterful detail in our traditions which are amazingly inclusive but have a few simple guidelines that have been shown to work.
If you are alcoholic you can be a member no matter what your other afflictions, both Bill and Bob mention drugs in their story
Bill
A doctor came with a heavy sedative. Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks.
Dr Bob
I did not take the morning drink which I craved so badly, but instead would fill up on large doses of sedatives to quiet the jitters, which distressed me terribly
So I would mention the pertinent parts of my drug use in my "pitches" no matter what anyone said, if it was good enough for our founders it's good enough for me, no where does it say we don't mention drugs, it says we share in a general way what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now, well what it was like for me was I was stoned and ripped and twisted and drunk for 15 years, that's just how that is, if you don't want to know what it was like why did you ask me to speak? What it also says is we confine our shares as they relate to my problems with alcohol, I feel I can do that and mention drugs, here is an example:
Next day found me drinking both gin and sedative. This combination soon landed me on the rocks.
I do try to focus on what we have in common, and what we have in common in Alcoholics Anonymous is our alcoholism, what makes me a member is the fact that I am an alcoholic, and my ability to help other alcoholics, which is because I am a recovered (or recovering I don't care what you call it) alcoholic, the thing that makes this deal special is one alcoholic helping another. Anything else is just not AA, I have taken addicts through the steps, I have "pitched" at NA meetings, I mention my drug use when I pitch.
I fall square between those members who cry we should let anybody in to AA and those who only want to allow that mythical creature known as the "pure" alcoholic, in my understanding of The Traditions both camps are equally wrong, so it's like the blind men arguing about the elephant, 2 camps arguing the the other is wrong, and quite frankly the only thing each camp is right about is the other being wrong.
I will repeat, in my experience both camps behave equally poorly with name calling and intolerance, both camps have one finger pointing at the other camp with 3 fingers pointing back at themselves, and are guilty of the very things they cry out what the other group is doing, mainly fear and intolerance of each other, leading to labeling and name calling.
I have love and tolerance for both camps, I have friends in both camps, I just think both camps are coming from the same place, fear, which leads to intolerance
I think they both could do with a trip through the traditions
or maybe even listen to what Bill has to say:
Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be Done About Them? by Bill W. -- A.A. Grapevine, February, 1958
[Any time is a good time to review our relations with each other and with the world outside. In the following article Bill has done this with the accent on special groups which seek to handle drug addiction. At the moment this problem is under a great amount of discussion in many AA areas -- Ed.]
PERHAPS THERE IS NO SUFFERING more horrible than drug addiction, especially that kind which is produced by morphine, heroin, and other narcotics. Such drugs twist the mind and the awful process of withdrawal racks the sufferer's body. Compared with the addict and his woes, we alcoholics are pikers. Barbiturates, carried to extremes, can be almost as bad. In AA we have members who have made great recoveries from both the bottle and the needle. We also have a great many others who were -- or still are -- victimized by "goof balls" and even by the new tranquilizers.
Consequently, this problem of drug addiction in its several forms lies close to us all. It stirs our deepest interest and sympathy. In the world around us we see legions of men and women who are trying to cure or to escape their problems by this means. Many AAs, especially those who have suffered these particular addictions, are now asking, "What can we do about drugs -- within our fellowship, and without?"
Because several projects to help pill and drug takers are already afloat -- projects which use AA's Twelve Steps and in which AA members are active -- there has arisen a whole series of questions as to how these efforts, already meeting with not a little success, can be rightly related to the AA groups and to AA as a whole.
Specifically, here is a list of questions: (1) Can a non-alcoholic pill or drug addict become an AA member? (2) Can such a person be brought, as a visitor, to an "open" AA meeting for help and inspiration? (3) Can a pill or drug taker, who also has a genuine alcoholic history, become a member of AA? (4) Can AAs who have suffered both alcoholism and addiction form themselves into "special purpose" groups to help other AAs who are having drug trouble? (5) Could such, a "special purpose;" group call itself an AA group? (6) Could such a group also include non-alcoholic drug users? (7) If so, should these non-alcoholic pill or drug users be led to believe that they have become AA members? (8) Is there any objection if AAs who have had the "dual problem" join such outside groups, such as Addicts Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous?
While some of these questions almost answer themselves, others do not. But all of them, I think, can readily be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone if we have a good look at the AA Traditions which apply, and another look at our long experience with the special purpose groups in which AAs are active today -- both within and without our society.
Now there are certain things that AA cannot do for anybody, regardless of what our several desires or sympathies may be.
Our first duty, as a society, is to insure our own survival. Therefore we have to avoid distractions and multi-purpose activity. An AA group, as such, cannot take on all the personal problems of its members, let alone the problems of the whole world.
Sobriety -- freedom from alcohol -- through the teaching and practice of the Twelve Steps, is the sole purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have always failed. It has also been learned that there is no possible way to make non-alcoholics into AA members. We have to confine our membership to alcoholics and we have to confine our AA groups to a single purpose. If we don't stick to these principles, we shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone.
To illustrate, let's review some typical experiences. Years ago, we hoped to give AA membership to our families and to certain non-alcoholic friends who had been greatly helpful. They had their problems, too, and we wanted them in our fold. Regretfully, we found that this was impossible. They couldn't make straight AA talks; nor, save a few exceptions, could they identify with new AA members. Hence, they couldn't do continuous Twelfth Step work. Close to us as these good folks were, we had to deny them membership. We could only welcome them at our open meetings.
Therefore I see no way of making non-alcoholic addicts into AA members. Experience says loudly that we can admit no exceptions, even though drug users and alcoholics happen to be first cousins of a sort. If we persist in trying this, I'm afraid it will be hard on the drug user himself, as well as on AA. We must accept the fact that no non-alcoholic, whatever his affliction, can be converted into an alcoholic AA member.
Suppose, though, that we are approached by a drug addict who nevertheless has had a genuine alcoholic history. There was a time when such a person would have been rejected. Many early AAs had the almost comical notion that they were "pure alcoholics" -- guzzlers only, no other serious problems at all. When alcoholic "ex-cons" and drug users first turned up there was much pious indignation. "What will people think?" chanted the pure alcoholics. Happily, this foolishness has long since evaporated.
One of the best AAs I know is a man who had been seven years on the needle before he joined up with us. But prior to that, he had been a terrific alcoholic and his history proved it. Therefore he could qualify for AA and this he certainly did. Since then, he has helped many AAs and some non-AAs with their pill and drug troubles. Of course, that is strictly his affair and is no way the business of the AA group to which he belongs. In his group he is a member because, in actual fact, he is an alcoholic.
Such is the sum of what AA Cannot do -- for narcotics addicts or for anybody else.
Now, then, what can be done? Very effective answers to problems other than freedom from alcohol have always been found through "special purpose" groups, some of them operating within AA and some on the outside.
Our first special-purpose group was created 'way back in 1938. AA needed a world service office and some literature. It had a service problem that could not be met by an AA group, as such. Therefore, we formed a Board of Trustees (The Alcoholic Foundation) to look after these matters. Some of the Trustees were alcoholics, and some were non-alcoholics. Obviously, this was not an "AA group." Instead, it was a group of AAs and non-AAs who devoted themselves to a special task.
Another example: in 1940, the New York AAs got lonesome and installed themselves in a club. The club had directors and dues-paying AA members. For a long time, the club members and directors thought that they were an AA group. But after awhile, it was found that lots of AAs who attended meetings at "Old 24th" didn't care one hoot for the club, as such. Hence, the management of the club (for its social purpose) had to be completely separated from the management of the AA group that came there to hold its meetings. It took years of hassling to prove that you couldn't put an AA group into the club business and make it stick. Everywhere today, club managements and their dues-paying members are seen as "special purpose" groups, not as AA groups.
The same thing has happened with drying-out places and "Twelfth Step Houses" managed by AAs. We never think of these activities as "AA groups." They are clearly seen as the functions of interested individuals who are doing helpful and often very valuable jobs.
Some years ago, numbers of AAs formed themselves in "retreat groups" having a religious purpose. At first, they wanted to call themselves "AA groups" of various descriptions. But they soon realized this could not be done because their groups had a dual purpose: both AA and religion.
At another time a number of us AAs wanted to enter the field of alcohol education. I was one of them. We associated ourselves with some non-alcoholics, likewise interested. The non-alcoholics wanted AAs because they needed our experience, philosophy, and general slant. Things were fine until some of us AAs publicly disclosed our membership in the educational group. Right away, the public got the idea that this particular brand of alcoholic education and Alcoholics Anonymous were one and the same thing. It took years to change this impression. But now that this correction has been made, plenty of AA members work with this fine group and we are glad that they do.
It was thus proven that, as individuals, we can carry the AA experience and ideas into any outside field whatever, provided that we guard anonymity and refuse to use the AA name for money-raising or publicity purposes.
I'm very sure that these experiences of yesterday can be the basis of resolving today's confusions about the narcotic problem. This problem is new, but the AA experience and Tradition which can solve it is already old and time-tested. I think we might sum it up like this:
We cannot give AA membership to non-alcoholic narcotics-addicts. But like anyone else, they should be able to attend certain open AA meetings, provided, of course, that the groups themselves are willing.
AA members who are so inclined should be encouraged to band together in groups to deal with sedative and drug problems. But they ought to refrain from calling themselves AA groups.
There seems to be no reason why several AAs cannot join, if they wish, with a group of straight addicts to solve the alcohol and the drug problem together. But, obviously, such a "dual purpose" group should not insist that it be called an AA group nor should it use the AA name in its title. Neither should its "straight addict" contingent be led to believe that they have become AA members by reason of such an association.
Certainly there is every good reason for interested AAs to join with "outside" groups, working on the narcotic problem, provided the Traditions of anonymity and of "no endorsements" are respected.
In conclusion, I want to say that throughout AA's history, most of our special-purpose groups have accomplished very wonderful things. There is great reason to hope that those AAs who are now working in the grim regions of narcotic addiction will achieve equal success.
In AA, the group has strict limitations, but the individual has scarcely any. Remembering to observe the Traditions of anonymity and non-endorsement, he can carry AA's message into every troubled area of this very troubled world.
Bill W
-- Edited by AGO on Monday 3rd of May 2010 10:53:50 AM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Ask an Alcoholic what time is it and he will tell you how to build a clock.
Larry, --------------------- Honesty gets us sober, tolerance keeps us sober. (Bill W.)
Aaah yes, no discussion of the traditions is complete without a passive aggressive, minimizing comment disguised as humor where one member makes fun of another member thus minimizing him, his statement, and what he stands for, cuts right through all the bullshit and saves one from having to make a well thought out intelligent response, simply deride them, get others to laugh and you have won your point.
Very very effective, shame I had a sponsor who pointed out to me every time I did that for ten years, so I ended up having to walk away from that particular form of debate that involved derision and minimization to other human beings.
-- Edited by AGO on Monday 3rd of May 2010 01:32:13 PM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I guess things may be less regimented at meetings here in the UK, or maybe just at the meetings that I attend. I've seen lots of people introduce themselves as "X and I'm an alcoholics and an addict" or sometimes even "X and I'm an addict." I have never ever heard anyone grumble about that, openly or quietly.
Even my sponsor, 29 years in and the most practical AA program guy I have ever met will mention drugs as being part of his pre-sobriety story.
I'd leave any meeting that did what they did to Joni at and would make sure not to recommend that meeting to newcomers.
Acceptance is knowing I do not have to join every argument I am invited to.
Larry, ----------------------- There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way." ~C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, 1943
Acceptance is knowing I do not have to join every argument I am invited to.
Larry, ----------------------- There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way." ~C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, 1943
Aaah, my mistake, I thought it was a discussion, not an argument, my mistake
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I know someone who says she doesn't have a problem with alcohol, but doesn't like NA meetings in the area because the members don't really seem to be focused on recovery. So she goes to AA meetings. Well, I sure don't think I have the right to tell her to leave, nor do I think anyone else should tell her to leave either. In my opinion, the reason for the tradition which states "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" is for inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. As long as this person is not interfering with anyone else's recovery (and I don't see that being the case), we should live and let live. Someone is even sponsoring her. Why not.
I know someone who says she doesn't have a problem with alcohol, but doesn't like NA meetings in the area because the members don't really seem to be focused on recovery. So she goes to AA meetings. Well, I sure don't think I have the right to tell her to leave, nor do I think anyone else should tell her to leave either. In my opinion, the reason for the tradition which states "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" is for inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. As long as this person is not interfering with anyone else's recovery (and I don't see that being the case), we should live and let live. Someone is even sponsoring her. Why not.
I agree, live and let live, I don't chase anyone away
As for why we need singleness of purpose all you have to do is go to to an NA meeting to see why that is.
I hear that all the time, people coming to AA because NA doesn't concentrate on recovery, 80% of the people are there with court cards etc I have seen this with my own eyes when I have been asked to speak at NA meetings, out of 80 people perhaps 70-75 had court cards, I had to help the secretary sign court cards
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
AGO: It does make me sad there is controversy about this, it makes me sad that so very many people attending AA "leave it to the service people" and don't take the time to learn our traditions, and then get mad at those very same people they leave to run the meetings, make the coffee, chair and secretary, serve as GSR, serve as area and regional reps and call them "elitist" when they try to explain what The Program is and isn't.
It's my opinion that we ALL have a responsibility to study the traditions and become "the service people" and help newcomers and do service in our groups, that is what members do. ---------------------------------------------------------
AGO, I have to say that I indeed see your point, and without the service work there is no AA. ALL "service work" people are not whom I was referring to as "elites"... I was referring to the folks whom you are familiar with also, who RUN the show to the point of RUNNING people out of AA. (Then again, one could argue, that if you wanted what we had you would do anyting to get it, regardless of who would try to run you out.... but that would be in a perfect world where newcomers and addicts don't have shattered feelings to begin with).
I speak for myself when I say that I must at this time leave it to the service workers to do these things. Why?? Because I HAVE STRUGGLED TO STAY SOBER, AND THIS IS WHAT I HAVE TO STAY AWAY FROM RIGHT NOW, IN ORDER TO STAY SOBER. Controversy in AA. All I have to do is show up as GSR for area 57 (Akron area), and identify myself as "acloholic addict" and be practially run over with the monster truck tires of scolding and dismay by some. I prefer not at this time. Shit, I only have 30 days sober today anyway. Why? Because I have not focused on the program nor followed directions.
Some of those directions being to "give back to AA some of what has so freely been given unto you." For now, that means to SUIT UP, SHOW UP, make coffee at my homegroup (this Friday, I will be there setting up just like for the past month), and my home group happens to be a Traditions meeting called "Traditionally Speaking", at 7pm on Eastland Avenue. It is a brand new meeting that friends of mine and I have started. I am learning a lot about traditions from old timers who have been showing up (by the Grace of God because my friends [some with 10 yrs] and I don't know what the hell we are doing, but we DO know how to read the 12&12 which is a start).
Service work? Yes, I am doing some service work, to the best of my ability right now. Maybe someday I will be the kind of service worker that does go to the meetings where they decide important matters like "should we rename an OLD story in the Big Book so it doesn't offend anyone, or instead allow those people to learn acceptance and tolerance for themselves as part of their AA program?" Perhaps I will be at those kinds of meetings trying to help keep what I see as "truly vital and important" at the forefront of discussion. (And even then, perhaps I won't know what the hell I am talking about, much like proabbly right now.....)
My whole point is that I am not bashing service work or long timers who happent o give a crap about the survival of AA through the traditions.
What I CANNOT tolerate, both as a grown woman and as a caring human being and a spiritual creature, is how I see SOME (not all) heads inflate to the point of near collapse, over such trifling matters, and to such a degree that they would trample on the feelings and desires of people who are not "pure alcoholics" or "real alcoholics" (you either are one or you aren't one, IMO) to get and stay clean and sober through a wonderful friendship with a power greater than themselves. That is what bothers me, and yes, it is controversial. But it is the kind of controversy that I am trying to do something about in my own life, when I see it happening to the unfortunates I mention here who are new.... and in that manner, I feel I am doing AA as a whole, and my own HP who cares about all people, a great Service.
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~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
greeting the newcomer and talking to them after the meeting
serving as secretary, literature person, treasurer etc
I did my stint in the political arena of AA and I despised it, I recomend it to my sponsees though, we all need to do a turn in the barrel, and it helps us learn what AA entails, sponsorship to me includes getting my sponsees active in commitments to the point I take commitments and turn to my sponsee and say "this is your commitment now" and taking them through the 12 traditions in the 12 and 12. I share my experience, strength and hope not just in the steps, but the traditions and share how we are responsible to be stewards to the orginization that saved our lives.
The traditions to me are as important as the steps, which I need to stay alive, literally, I am like a diabetic and the steps are my insulin, or more closely, I am quite literally insane without the steps (step 2 anyone?) and without working the steps, I will revert to that insanity, I have more experience with that both with myself and watching others then I ever cared to have.
today I stay away from the business aspect of AA except when I have a commitment at a group that is taking a group conscience on a sweeping change, I vote with my feet, attend only meetings I like, share occasionally, speak occasionally (chair)
I am by no means an elder statesman, but I do sit in the back and make quiet observations usually as the minority opinion that frequently change an election from 100% for to 100% against (OK it happened once, last business meeting I attended)
Thing is, anything lacking in AA, if there is a fault, which I don't believe there is, but anything lacking in AA today is not due to the newcomers or the treatment centers or blah blah blah, it's the responsibility of those of us that have been around awhile to teach the newcomer about the steps, and the traditions, and the fact that we are a fellowship named after a program of action, not the other way around, and that the steps and traditions are necessary in order to have a meeting be a spiritual entity rather then just a bitch fest, that meetings are there to carry the message to the still suffering alcoholic, not let the still suffering alcoholic drone on and on about their day, or crosstalk etc.
It's our duty to train secretaries their job is to uphold the traditions in the meeting and it's our job to help them, that's why they were elected to be the trusted servant.
It's on those of us with time to teach the newer people what AA is and isn't, the history of it, the meaning behind the traditions, and the magic that takes place when meetings are spiritual entities and not group therapy so people can come and just dump their problems, that is for forums and venues like this one, this is like the meeting after the meeting here at MIP, we are like the foyer of the church.
My friends with long term (25-40 years) sobriety that are "anda's" actually just identify themselves as alcoholics for the most part, they call it "respecting the house they are in" and in NA which also doesn't like the term alcoholic/addict they call themselves addicts, but when asked to speak at a meeting Alcoholics Anonymous pull no punches and include the details of their addiction because it's part of "what is was like".
The funny thing, off the top of my head, one is named Lee, for many years he was one of the "doing it right guys", the hardliners and ass kickers, and after 11? years of sobriety or so he was told to stop taking his meds by fellow "doing it right guys"
He tells the story of how soon after a fish looked at him and said "Lee, you need to take a drink to help the Archangel Gabriel stave off armegeddon"
He was yelling at the fish NO NO NO because he had encountered talking fish before and it was never good, thus began 2 years of hell, he got these wild eyes, continued coming to meetings but was drinking and using and he started brandishing this HUGE Bowie knife, he got totally psychotic and delusional, and was arrested for a series of assaults that got worse and worse, everyone I know was TERRIFIED of the guy, until finally he was locked up and given a full psych eval and put back on his meds.
Since then he has 25? years of sobriety or so and a nicer, sweeter more gentle man you will never meet. His story is riddled with drugs, psych problems, and problems other then alcohol, but I have never seen him receive anything other then a hug even by the staunchest right wing AA type after he speaks.
Perhaps they remember that knife he used to threaten them with last time they messed with his sobriety, anyhow, the approach he takes is "respect the house you are in" and is loved by thousands easily in AA in the Bay Area, as a recovered alcoholic, drug addict, and "doing it right" AA evangalist, which is what we both have in common by the way, I went through a pretty good "doing it right guy" phase, I appear to be a bit of the right of Attila The Hun on this site frequently but am considered a pretty liberal AAer where I am from, which strangely enough is the San Francisco Bay Area, where they take their coffee and AA pretty strong, and pretty serious.
-- Edited by AGO on Wednesday 5th of May 2010 01:52:38 AM
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Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
I realize that this is an old thread, but the issue hits home for me.
I have heard the misguided statement that a 12 step meeting is a 12 step meeting. Even the drug addicts as a community dont believe this or there wouldnt be any specialty groups: Heroin Anonymous, Meth Anonymous, Marijuana Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, etc. It is quite telling that drug addicts dont flock to other 12 steps programs such as Gambling, Sex, and Overeaters Anonymous, Al-Anon and Adult Children of Alcoholics, etc.
There are those who argue that A.A. cofounder Bill W. was also a drug addict. It is reported that at least some of use of LSD was done under medical research and some reports of personal experimentation perhaps culminating in the A.A. Grapevine article mentioned below coming after Bills reported use of LSD. All the descriptions I have found of Bills LSD use were recreational and not addictive abuse, though as I imply below, I would have rolled back Bills sobriety date for the recreational use.
The 4th Edition of the Big Book says: They said I needed to identify, not compare. I didnt know what they meant. What was the difference? Identifying, they said, was trying to see how I was like the people I was with. Comparing, they told me, was looking for differences, usually seeing how I was better than others. A Drunk Like You, pg. 405.
A person like me whose only addiction is an alcohol, I cant identify with the vastly different behavior of a drug addict. Alcohol is legal and relatively inexpensive compared to drugs. Many illicit drug addicts must commit crimes to get the money to feed their addiction and often put their life and limb in jeopardy in obtaining their substance(s) and in trusting that nothing harmful has been added to it/them. In other words, there is great deal more criminality and dishonesty in drug behavior and drug addicts put their lives on the line every day. Drug addicts typically spiral downward much more quickly than alcoholics and never fully recover because teenage drug use alters the brain permanently, something revealed in rehab.
The magic of A.A., or what makes A.A. work, is that nobody can understand an alcoholic like another. I dont understand drug addiction like a drug addict does.
Many drug addicts misinterpret N.A.s warning that alcohol is a drug. While some definitions would not include alcohol, alcohol is not a narcotic. The intent is to warn against substitution. A.A. does not recognize someone who is abstaining from alcohol use but using other mood altering substances as sober. Still, there are those that use it as back door into A.A. since they drank alcohol. But do they meet the 1st step definition of an alcoholic? Probably not!
A.A. professes to have a singleness of purpose best set forth by Bill W. in a February 1958 A.A. Grapevine article, Problems Other Than Alcohol: What Can Be Done About Them? the long form of the 3rd Tradition clearly indicates that A.A, is for alcoholics only: Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Think about it. A.A. is a program of rigorous honesty. So a drug addict professing to be an alcoholic or hiding his/her deception by being cross or dually addicted is dishonest and cant get sober in AA. So why try?
To be honest, there have been times that A.A. has been inconsistent. The 4th Edition Big Book story Acceptance Was The Answer, pg. 417, and the 3rd Edition Big Book story Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict, pg. 449, originally published in the A.A. Grapevine in May 1975 as bronze Moccasins is about a drug addicted and alcoholic doctor whose story gives us the Acceptance reading.
While I could go ad infinitum, there is another major principle impacting sobriety, unselfishness. Drug addicts who are not also alcoholics hurt me because they share their drug experiences at meetings, and often never share there alcoholic experiences because they dont have any, a good sign of a drug addict hiding in A.A., a derogative term, something I cannot identify with at all. If all the drug addicts could share at the end, I could leave early. I cringe when someone says A.A. is a selfish program because they misunderstand that it is program to work on oneself through becoming unselfish; A.A. is a we program not a me program.
If the drug addicts would stick to N.A., there would be more N.A meetings and more sobriety. Note that I did try N.A. meetings for a while believing alcohol was a drug coming under the N.A. umbrella, but I have found that to be untrue. Still, I was open to the idea that N.A. might also work for me.
By now I have been branded hostile or a heretic or both. I dont begrudge drug addicts use of the 12 steps and their own program where they can best identify with fellow drug addicts. And to the extent that a 12 step program is a 12 step program, a drug addicts underlying emotional problems can be addressed in Neurotics Anonymous and its offshoot Emotions Anonymous.
That is my opinion recognizing that no one person speaks for the whole of A.A.
Drug addicts who are not also alcoholics hurt me because they share their drug experiences at meetings, and often never share there alcoholic experiences because they dont have any, a good sign of a drug addict hiding in A.A., a derogative term, something I cannot identify with at all. If all the drug addicts could share at the end, I could leave early.
It's worth noting for newcomers reading this, the description above applies to "open meetings", where anyone is welcome to attend and to share whether they are alcoholics or not.
We also have "closed meetings", strictly for alcoholics and about alcoholism. Here in Colorado Springs we have a healthy mixture of both, so anyone looking for a meeting can find one suited to their needs.
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"God can move mountains but it helps to bring a shovel!"
Drug addicts who are not also alcoholics hurt me because they share their drug experiences at meetings, and often never share there alcoholic experiences because they dont have any, a good sign of a drug addict hiding in A.A., a derogative term, something I cannot identify with at all. If all the drug addicts could share at the end, I could leave early.
It's worth noting for newcomers reading this, the description above applies to "open meetings", where anyone is welcome to attend and to share whether they are alcoholics or not.
We also have "closed meetings", strictly for alcoholics and about alcoholism. Here in Colorado Springs we have a healthy mixture of both, so anyone looking for a meeting can find one suited to their needs.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant and it is otherwise clear.
Around here we have many drug addicts who identify simply as a (drug) addict, cross or dualy addicted, or simply say "I qualify" or identify as an alcoholic, but never talk of their alcoholic experiences, none of which have an actual alcohol problem; alcoholics identify themselves or qualify to attend closed meetings simply as "alcoholic" and no more. These people attend closed meetings (and tell old timers they are entitled to attend and how to work the program and talk of the N.A. Basic Text and other N.A. material) which is what I take issue with. Open meetings, which are far too few around here, are "open" to anyone and everyone.
For example, I know one A.A. "member" claiming 17 years of sobriety who is director at a local Alano club whose open talk was all about his drug use and the abuse he received, but virtually nothing about his experience getting and staying sober and a single incident of alcohol abuse as a teenager that predates his drug addiction who insists that he has the right to share virtually anything in a meeting and loves to brag and provides some detail about his incestuous relationship with is half sister. But he claims not to be a drug addict hiding our in A.A. But if it walks and talks like a duck.... And you can't con a con man, but drug addicts try anyway.
-- Edited by SoberInMI on Monday 29th of May 2017 04:04:29 PM
). Imo, for the most part it's the same disease but add that most drugs are illegal and that adds some elements to the feelings about it. Also drug addiction can be extremely expensive compared to alcohol so the addict is often compelled by their disease to beg, borrow, steal and otherwise demean themselves in order to feed their addiction adding a great deal of burnt bridges and shame over the same. I also see a lot of depression from burn out and complicated mental imbalances from so much mood altering. I was one of the lucky ones that favored alcohol and used drugs to essential enable me to drink more. It appears to me that us alcoholics, on average, might have an easier road.