There's a meeting that a lot of people tend to avoid because they feel unwelcome for some reason. I rarely went to it before because it was further from my house, but just moved and so today I went. Several people, while sharing, made dismissive comments about people (such as myself) who got to AA by way of a DUI and have court slips to be signed. It's like they take some perverse pride in being "real alcoholics" and look down upon so-called "fake alcoholics" or "people who are just here to get their slips signed."
In my opinion this violates the first tradition, "Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity." It's probably a good thing that I didn't get called on, because I was getting more and more angry with each person who said these things. I know that the proper response for me should be to view them as being perhaps spiritually sick, and to ask God to show them the same patience and tolerance that I would cheerfully grant a sick man. But isn't there SOMETHING I can do to show other newcomers that these people are not speaking for AA as a whole, and that everyone who has a desire to stop drinking is welcome no matter how they got here?
-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Saturday 24th of April 2010 06:28:35 PM
Sure is something you can do to show the newcomer that these people are not speaking for AA as a whole without violating principles before personalities.
1. Make sure that you walk the talk, that your actions are in accordance with everything you learned about AA. A newcomer learns a lot more by observing behavior than by listening to words
2. Do not speak badly to anyone, newcomer or oldtimer about anyone else at the meeting regardless of their words or actions. It would show the newcomer that you judge others.
3. The best thing you could do is invite the newcomer to go with you to other AA meetings so they get a well rounded picture of AA. And they feel as they have found a new friend (YOU).
Larry, ------------------ Resentments are like stray cats: if you don't feed them, they'll go away
In my experience over the last 21 years in AA, I have found 2 groups of people. Those who break the principles behind the traditions, and those who get upset with this lot and leave AA. I was going to "resign" from my group and join another. My sponsor stopped me. He said to me, Gonee if you go there and you have the same problem what are you going to do? Wise man, that sponsor, because I realised that we have tradition 2 for that express purpose. People that violate traditions pay a price, so I learnt to leave them alone. I myself guard against breaking the traditions my self. My personal recovery hangs in the balance and I most certainly do not want to gamble with that.
As you gain more time and experience FS you will learn more about "your" program and how "you" work it. It is the AA program for sure with you particular character. By not reacting and then not responding as time went on I got to make better choices as to how I handle it today. I speak up at times mostly on a personal level and with real care and consideration with the other person sharing perceptions on the subject. You can also inventory the subject they are having a problem with and express your gratitude for the "slip to be signed". Where might you have been without one? In the past when I have spoken into a meeting on the subject I have said "my" piece from my recovery perception and then let go of it. Not an issue.
There's a meeting that a lot of people tend to avoid because they feel unwelcome for some reason. I rarely went to it before because it was further from my house, but just moved and so today I went. Several people, while sharing, made dismissive comments about people (such as myself) who got to AA by way of a DUI and have court slips to be signed.
Is it a closed meeting?
Have you read Tradition 3 in the 12 and 12?
It described what happens when AAers get frightened and intolerant, it addresses basically this very issue, ie membership. Who should be allowed to attend meetings.
Many meetings I attend in San Francisco Bay area refuse to sign court cards any more, so as to only have people that WANT to be at the meeting, not that HAVE to be at the meeting.
There are many alcoholics who attend AA that are angry about the court system dumping people who don't want to go to AA to AA meetings. This has literally ruined many meetings. They aren't angry at alcoholics, they are angry at The court system for flooding AA with non-alcoholics, for trying to force AA to do the court systems work.
I have attended meetings with well over 95% people in attendance that were there to get a court card signed, they had NO interest in stopping drinking.
3.) The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
What does the long form state?
3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity.Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
When AA signs court cards, they are affiliating themselves with the court system, hence many groups no longer choose to sign court cards, that is their right
What about the thousands of Non Alcoholics that the court system sends to meetings? Who is fault for allowing that, us or the court system?
So what does Tradition One actually say?
1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first.But individual welfare follows close afterward.
Who is going to make sure AA continues to live? Who is going to respect AA's Traditions? The angry person sent to AA against his/her will that has no desire to stop drinking? That may or may not even be an Alcoholic?
AA can't be all things to all people, We are only there as one alcoholic talking to another <alcoholic>
Many groups have decided for our common welfare, they won't sign court cards, that is within their right to do so. They have decided for our common welfare they don't want non alcoholics that don't want to be there attending their meetings.
They have decided that the common welfare of the alcoholics that WANT to get sober is more important then the thousands of Non alcoholics that DON'T want to get sober is actually what that Tradition means. That it's more important to help and protect AA then it is to help the court system, which it may be noted, we have Traditions that actually say we SHOULDN'T be affiliated with the court system, not vice versa.
That is their right as the following Traditions state.
2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.
These groups can do and say anything they like, that is why many groups have "closed" meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous, they only want alcoholics attending that have a desire to get sober
5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
I have attended meetings where every single share was "I don't have any experience with this step but: and they proceeded to talk about their day, in a meeting that was attended by an average of 15 people, 13 were there to get their court cards signed, I left wanting to shoot myself. AA was NOT spoken there, our primary purpose was NOT carried.
It was no longer "AA" it was something else. It was a court ordered group therapy session, it had nothing to do with AA, that is what happens in areas in which the court ordered folks GREATLY outnumber the Sober AA members.
I have seen this with my own eyes, I had to drive 2 hours each direction once a week, one hour in each direction twice a week, and 20 minutes each direction once a week to find good meetings where they carried the message of AA.
In all honesty and fairness, I had a court card getting signed at the time....
This is what Court Cards have done to many areas, and many alcoholics are frightened and angry about it. Frightened and angry people seldom behave well.
OK, all that being said, I have had to have court cards signed, many of my close friends got sober via the courts, I have nothing against having a court card signed, I do go to both closed and open meetings, I have to say I prefer closed meetings that don't sign court cards in many cases, not all, but many, when I was getting my card signed, I still attended those, I just didn't get my card signed, I was there for the meeting.
This may very well be an issue for Tradition One, but not in the way it was brought up in this instance, who is say The Court System sending thousands of thousands of non alcoholics that have no desire to get sober may in fact be "affecting AA as a Whole" adversely, which it clearly has in some areas?
Squirrel I suggest reading about The Traditions in The 12 and 12, and getting a "service sponsor" to teach you about the Traditions and The Concepts, because it is important that we have more members that actually understand the Traditions and The Concepts.
So them saying judgmental things about others only reflects poorly on their own personal sobriety and spiritual status, but not Tradition One, and who doesn't judge others from time to time when angry and frightened?
There's a meeting that a lot of people tend to avoid because they feel unwelcome for some reason.
Had you ever been to that meeting before?
Perhaps these are closed meetings that only want alcoholics to attend, of course non alcoholics would feel unwelcome. There are a lot of non-alcoholics that attend AA meetings these days for whatever reason, I have met many hundreds of them myself. There are meetings they avoid, the "closed" meetings with "hardcore" sobriety
You can find everything you need to about this issue in the Traditions, especially Tradition 3 in the 12 and 12 it describes what happens when Alcoholics get frightened, angry and intolerant. It's happened to all of us, and they are at least as worthy of our love, forgiveness and understanding as those people sent by the courts.
AA doesn't always grow with style and grace, H and I was actually founded after a fist fight between Marin members of AA and members from New York who flew out to stop the Marin members from taking a meeting into San Quentin and they got in a fist fight general melee brawl in the parking lot at San Quentin, Hospitals and Institutions is now the second oldest Institution in AA after General Services
We don't always agree but we are always learning and growing
Love and Tolerance for others IS our code, that should also include love and tolerance for our own.
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 09:53:38 PM
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Many meetings I attend in San Francisco Bay area refuse to sign court cards any more, so as to only have people that WANT to be at the meeting, not that HAVE to be at the meeting.
I have never ran across a group that refused signing court cards. It sure was a good thing for me that meetings were not restricted to only those that wanted to be there.
When I came in I did not want to stop drinking and I did not want to be there because I did not think I was an Alcoholic.
I did not come via the courts but came to due to an ultimatim from my wife who was preparing to pack up and leave. I thought I would buy a little time so that she would calm down a bit. My intention always was to go back to my normal drinking habits as soon as she was a bit calmer. Funny thing happened, I started identifying with the people sharing and I found out that I was an Alcoholic. This was a big surprise to me.
Many of the people coming via the courts here on the East Coast discover they too are Alcoholic by identifying with our stories in the meetings although when they first show up they do not think they have a problem.
Of course there are many ordered by the courts to attend who are just alcohol abusers and not alcoholics but I would rather allow all of them to attend our meetings so that the Alcoholics among them have a chance to find out that they are one of us. If we don't allow them in we may take away their only chance as tradition three states:
"At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance was sometimes to pronounce his death sentence, and often to condemn him to endless misery. Who dared to be judge, jury, and executioner of his own sick brother?"
Larry ---------- The difference between the problem drinker and the alcoholic is this: a)when the alcohol is taken away from the problem drinker, the problem goes away. b) when the alcohol is taken away from the alcoholic, the problem begins.
I didn't make those meetings not sign court cards, I just attended them, and they are GOOD meetings
Tradition three does state: 3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover.
I agree with what Bill wrote in Tradition three, perhaps that is why I suggested he read it? I stated alcoholics that are frightened and angry seldom behave well, which means I didn't agree with how they behaved.
My OPINION was:
OK, all that being said, I have had to have court cards signed, many of my close friends got sober via the courts, I have nothing against having a court card signed, I do go to both closed and open meetings
I was just trying to point out what The Tradition actually says, and why one hears these things at meetings now, this is not the first time I have seen this tedious round and round court card BS argument on an AA forum.
The Traditions are there in place to protect AA and the alcoholics in it, not to assist the court system, and that is the bottom line, the problem in many cases is people mistake tolerance for permissiveness in the AA Traditions.
They are there to be adhered to, so it helps if one knows what one is talking about in regards to them before one makes announcements about them at group level.
You will Note Bill says:
"At last experience taught us that to take away any alcoholic's full chance
It doesn't say anything about taking away somebody sent by the court system that doesn't want to be there and has no desire to get sober full chance away, it says ALCOHOLIC
If you want what we have and are willing to go to any length, welcome, if you don't, why are you here?
If it is because you didn't want to lose your wife, that's great, it's not relevant to this discussion, but that's great, I also came initially to save my relationship, but that has NOTHING to do with court cards and why Alcoholics are angry, frightened and Intolerant about this issue.
PS add:
Yeah my favorite sponsee got sober through the court system, I was trying to explain why so many alcoholics are angry and frightened right now about this issue, IRL I tease them and let them know they are being bleeding deacons, but I personally have seen court cards destroy meetings, so I am ambivalent, meaning I have strong feelings on both sides of the issue, I don't have the answer though.
We should allow court cards but how do we preserve the integrity of AA in places where the court cards outnumber the sober people? Personally I think the system of Open and Closed meetings works, and at the Open Meetings I attend Guests are welcomed but asked not to share, but to talk to people after the meeting, everyone is asked to limit their shares as they relate to alcoholism.
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 10:41:23 PM
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 10:50:03 PM
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
What NOT to do, A.K.A. exactly what I FEEL like doing in this instance:
Jumping up and yelling, "What the hell is WRONG with you people??? PATIENCE AND TOLERANCE IS OUR CODE. Read the Big Book and get back to me about "REAL vs. FAKE"(?) alcoholics!!!! Until then, get a damned LIFE!"
Yup, definitely don't do that. Wouldn't be good for you or anyone else. But, being that it touched a nerve here from where I sit, it felt good envisioning and expressing that here. (aaahhhhhh....)
I am getting a paper signed right now, and for the next 3 weeks. Why? Didn't get ordered by any court. Didn't get thrown into treatment. Parents and spouse (on the way out anyway) did not give me any ultimatums. Why? Because I reached out to a support group for serious help, being Group Therapy for alcoholics/addicts, and we abide by 3 meetings per week, and we humble ourselves by getting a paper signed so that we can assure our facilitator that we are doing our best to follow good solid guidelines. And you know what? It does not make me any more "serious" or better or more sober or more likely to stay sober than the guy who is awaiting a tough prison sentence, or a gal who has been court ordered so she can get her kids back, or the one that got a DUI, or the other one that got caught with a crack pipe. There is a miracle being missed by these &^%#$ who do this crap: THE PERSON IS HERE, AND IS HERE RIGHT NOW FOR A REASON- A SPIRITUAL GOD-GIVEN REASON. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY YOU HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH RIGHT NOW TO BE HELPFUL, WHICH COMES WITH THE GIFT OF THIS PERSON BEING HERE???????? HUHHHH?????
Case in point: NONE of us are to be judged. AA has "no opinion on outside issues". PERIOD, end of discussion, where trite stuff like this enters the dialogue at an AA meeting. Burns me up, I tell you, but it is the beauty of ME having accept THEIR sickness as well, even if it is not the kind of behavior that includes a bottle of something to wash down the egotism.
Grrrrrr... growlllllll....
Whew... thanks, needed to release the old pressure cooker a bit.
__________________
~Your Higher Power has not given you a longing to do that which you have no ability to do.
What NOT to do, A.K.A. exactly what I FEEL like doing in this instance:
Jumping up and yelling, "What the hell is WRONG with you people??? PATIENCE AND TOLERANCE IS OUR CODE. Read the Big Book and get back to me about "REAL vs. FAKE"(?) alcoholics!!!! Until then, get a damned LIFE!"
Yup, definitely don't do that. Wouldn't be good for you or anyone else. But, being that it touched a nerve here from where I sit, it felt good envisioning and expressing that here. (aaahhhhhh....)
I am getting a paper signed right now, and for the next 3 weeks. Why? Didn't get ordered by any court. Didn't get thrown into treatment. Parents and spouse (on the way out anyway) did not give me any ultimatums. Why? Because I reached out to a support group for serious help, being Group Therapy for alcoholics/addicts, and we abide by 3 meetings per week, and we humble ourselves by getting a paper signed so that we can assure our facilitator that we are doing our best to follow good solid guidelines. And you know what? It does not make me any more "serious" or better or more sober or more likely to stay sober than the guy who is awaiting a tough prison sentence, or a gal who has been court ordered so she can get her kids back, or the one that got a DUI, or the other one that got caught with a crack pipe. There is a miracle being missed by these &^%#$ who do this crap: THE PERSON IS HERE, AND IS HERE RIGHT NOW FOR A REASON- A SPIRITUAL GOD-GIVEN REASON. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THE OPPORTUNITY YOU HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH RIGHT NOW TO BE HELPFUL, WHICH COMES WITH THE GIFT OF THIS PERSON BEING HERE???????? HUHHHH?????
Case in point: NONE of us are to be judged. AA has "no opinion on outside issues". PERIOD, end of discussion, where trite stuff like this enters the dialogue at an AA meeting. Burns me up, I tell you, but it is the beauty of ME having accept THEIR sickness as well, even if it is not the kind of behavior that includes a bottle of something to wash down the egotism.
Grrrrrr... growlllllll....
Whew... thanks, needed to release the old pressure cooker a bit.
LoL
touch a nerve?
hehe
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
In my experience over the last 21 years in AA, I have found 2 groups of people. Those who break the principles behind the traditions, and those who get upset with this lot and leave AA. I was going to "resign" from my group and join another. My sponsor stopped me. He said to me, Gonee if you go there and you have the same problem what are you going to do? Wise man, that sponsor, because I realised that we have tradition 2 for that express purpose. People that violate traditions pay a price, so I learnt to leave them alone. I myself guard against breaking the traditions my self. My personal recovery hangs in the balance and I most certainly do not want to gamble with that.
Secret Squirrel, this ^^^^^ is what I was thinking. Stop playing "what's wrong with this picture" and focus on why it is that you come to meetings. Don't let your disease push you out of the rooms. Remember, those are sick people trying to get well, some are sicker than others. Over time, I realized that I was one of the "sicker" ones. This was after leaving AA a couple dozen times because I didn't think that I belonged with those unfortunate soles. Imagine the humility I gained when those same sober people saw me drag back in (after relapsing) some 18 times in 2 years. Experience is the best teacher but it's also an s.o.b. Be grateful and stay sober.
It described what happens when AAers get frightened and intolerant, it addresses basically this very issue, ie membership. Who should be allowed to attend meetings.
Many meetings I attend in San Francisco Bay area refuse to sign court cards any more, so as to only have people that WANT to be at the meeting, not that HAVE to be at the meeting.
There are many alcoholics who attend AA that are angry about the court system dumping people who don't want to go to AA to AA meetings. This has literally ruined many meetings. They aren't angry at alcoholics, they are angry at The court system for flooding AA with non-alcoholics, for trying to force AA to do the court systems work.
I have attended meetings with well over 95% people in attendance that were there to get a court card signed, they had NO interest in stopping drinking.
3.) The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
What does the long form state?
3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend upon money or conformity.Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
When AA signs court cards, they are affiliating themselves with the court system, hence many groups no longer choose to sign court cards, that is their right
What about the thousands of Non Alcoholics that the court system sends to meetings? Who is fault for allowing that, us or the court system?
So what does Tradition One actually say?
1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first.But individual welfare follows close afterward.
Who is going to make sure AA continues to live? Who is going to respect AA's Traditions? The angry person sent to AA against his/her will that has no desire to stop drinking? That may or may not even be an Alcoholic?
AA can't be all things to all people, We are only there as one alcoholic talking to another <alcoholic>
Many groups have decided for our common welfare, they won't sign court cards, that is within their right to do so. They have decided for our common welfare they don't want non alcoholics that don't want to be there attending their meetings.
They have decided that the common welfare of the alcoholics that WANT to get sober is more important then the thousands of Non alcoholics that DON'T want to get sober is actually what that Tradition means. That it's more important to help and protect AA then it is to help the court system, which it may be noted, we have Traditions that actually say we SHOULDN'T be affiliated with the court system, not vice versa.
That is their right as the following Traditions state.
2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.
These groups can do and say anything they like, that is why many groups have "closed" meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous, they only want alcoholics attending that have a desire to get sober
5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
I have attended meetings where every single share was "I don't have any experience with this step but: and they proceeded to talk about their day, in a meeting that was attended by an average of 15 people, 13 were there to get their court cards signed, I left wanting to shoot myself. AA was NOT spoken there, our primary purpose was NOT carried.
It was no longer "AA" it was something else. It was a court ordered group therapy session, it had nothing to do with AA, that is what happens in areas in which the court ordered folks GREATLY outnumber the Sober AA members.
I have seen this with my own eyes, I had to drive 2 hours each direction once a week, one hour in each direction twice a week, and 20 minutes each direction once a week to find good meetings where they carried the message of AA.
In all honesty and fairness, I had a court card getting signed at the time....
This is what Court Cards have done to many areas, and many alcoholics are frightened and angry about it. Frightened and angry people seldom behave well.
OK, all that being said, I have had to have court cards signed, many of my close friends got sober via the courts, I have nothing against having a court card signed, I do go to both closed and open meetings, I have to say I prefer closed meetings that don't sign court cards in many cases, not all, but many, when I was getting my card signed, I still attended those, I just didn't get my card signed, I was there for the meeting.
This may very well be an issue for Tradition One, but not in the way it was brought up in this instance, who is say The Court System sending thousands of thousands of non alcoholics that have no desire to get sober may in fact be "affecting AA as a Whole" adversely, which it clearly has in some areas?
Squirrel I suggest reading about The Traditions in The 12 and 12, and getting a "service sponsor" to teach you about the Traditions and The Concepts, because it is important that we have more members that actually understand the Traditions and The Concepts.
So them saying judgmental things about others only reflects poorly on their own personal sobriety and spiritual status, but not Tradition One, and who doesn't judge others from time to time when angry and frightened?
There's a meeting that a lot of people tend to avoid because they feel unwelcome for some reason.
Had you ever been to that meeting before?
Perhaps these are closed meetings that only want alcoholics to attend, of course non alcoholics would feel unwelcome. There are a lot of non-alcoholics that attend AA meetings these days for whatever reason, I have met many hundreds of them myself. There are meetings they avoid, the "closed" meetings with "hardcore" sobriety
You can find everything you need to about this issue in the Traditions, especially Tradition 3 in the 12 and 12 it describes what happens when Alcoholics get frightened, angry and intolerant. It's happened to all of us, and they are at least as worthy of our love, forgiveness and understanding as those people sent by the courts.
AA doesn't always grow with style and grace, H and I was actually founded after a fist fight between Marin members of AA and members from New York who flew out to stop the Marin members from taking a meeting into San Quentin and they got in a fist fight general melee brawl in the parking lot at San Quentin, Hospitals and Institutions is now the second oldest Institution in AA after General Services
We don't always agree but we are always learning and growing
Love and Tolerance for others IS our code, that should also include love and tolerance for our own.
-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 24th of April 2010 09:53:38 PM
It was not a closed meeting. I've attended it before many times, and I attend a meeting every day even though I'm only required to attend two a week. Would be no skin off my nose if they stopped signing slips, but that doesn't change the fact that people are making others feel unwelcome due to their manner of coming to AA. If they have issues they should bring it up at a business meeting and not disrespect people right to their faces in the meeting. Well, I'm done bitching now and I'll take Gonee and St. Pete Dean's advice (and maybe yours at some point too).
Howdy, Interesting post. I saw tasted and felt from my first meeting, that I was Home. The reason why was subtle. I knew I was "Un Well" and here I was with others who were "Un Well". Bill W. wrote" we are more brothers (and sisters) in our defects than in our virtues." All of A.A. became my family. And OH Yes !!! We have had our squabbles. Sounds like real life. Good place to practice playing well with others. Toad
I saw tasted and felt from my first meeting, that I was Home. The reason why was subtle. I knew I was "Un Well" and here I was with others who were "Un Well". Bill W. wrote" we are more brothers (and sisters) in our defects than in our virtues." All of A.A. became my family. And OH Yes !!! We have had our squabbles. Sounds like real life. Good place to practice playing well with others.
Toad
Toad,
Good place to practice playing well with others. That is a great statement
I will remember and use it.
Thanks
Larry, ------------------------ I often obsessively pursue feeling good.. no matter how bad it makes me feel.
Has that particuliar group become so Proud of thier Humility that they fail to recognize a Service opportunity when they see one? A chance to plant a seed?
12th step opportunities that are as plain and straight-forward as welcoming card-bearers and serving as a good example don't come along every day.
If it was me...I would jump at the opportunity to sign documents and make eye-contact with these people who are on a path that WILL fork. Hopefully their time in our company helps them choose the AA branch.
Just like with our telling newcomers "look for the ways we're alike, don't look for the differences", we have to practice the same thing. We need to look for the ways we're like the ones who come in to get slips signed, not look for ways we're "better than" or "want it more" than them. Just because I didn't have to get a slip signed when I came to AA doesn't mean I might not have eventually, had I lived that long drinking. It doesn't mean I'm more of an alcoholic than they might be or more deserving of getting to an AA meeting, whatever way I got there.
When a new person walks in the door, we don't require them to say they want to stop drinking. Like Larry and like me, there are millions of others who haven't admitted they're alcoholic and surely probably don't want to stop drinking at first, whether they come in to get a slip signed or not. Why become holier-than-thou with those who come in through the courts? Let's not forget "yets".
My understanding has always been that closed meetings were for those who call themselves alcoholic. That means people coming in through the court system who haven't admitted their disease wouldn't go to those meetings, as far as I see it. But far be it from me to keep out someone with a court paper if they do admit they're alcoholic and have the desire to stop drinking.
-- Edited by Ellen E on Sunday 25th of April 2010 12:04:48 PM
Read all this wisdom, and agree, never Judge, we do not have that right in AA....
However feel this might be a perfect time to confess that once when in a similiar situation, not really the same.....I was so bent out of shape over what I saw going on in this particular meeting..... I let that sort of interfere with all that was going on, like my ears were closed, and there I sat....and made a decision, probably just about the worst mistake I have ever made....I raised my hand, stated what I felt was so out of line with what was going on, violating one of our Traditions... and then did an about face and left, and with the understanding that more than likely I would never return, and actually this was not in my arena of meetings anyway, so never did go back.
So my dear friend all I can say is that I was barely in my second year, and my Sponsor was in a different county, and will just close with this..... I did what you were considering doing, and to this day, well never really think of that experience, but today I did, and would never ever ever ever, repeat those arrogant words.....
I, of course had the option of just leaving, but no had to say what I had to say, that was the big error.....
We live and we learn, hope so much you got out of this as much as I did.....
Perhaps someday we will see something on the Walls for us to read, Things to Never do while attending an Alcholics Anonymous meeting, just kidding....but you get what I am saying...of course I had not plunged yet into the Steps, was on Step 3, and to this day, it still makes me cringe at my actions. then I finally came to the conclusion that it was ok to forgive myself.....When we know better, we do better.
So great to see you Posting....as I have said before, I/we miss you a Lot...
Unfortuneately I have been in many AA meetings where traditions are violated. Unless it is my homegroup, and a group consious or business meeting is taking place then I have no business bringing up a violation of tradition. Especially during a meeting.
I do like Larrys share directly after the original post.
And in all reality, far as Im concerned AA meetings should/need to be about the power of God and the steps and recovery in our life. A member focusing on why someone is in a meeting is not good .
Every meeting of AA I have ever attended reads this at the beginning:
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
What is their common problem?
Alcoholism
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not alliedwith any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.
So the meeting is there to help -other alcoholics- achieve sobriety
That's it
That is the whole reason AA exists, to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety
When you sign something, you are "endorsing it" such as a check or a contract
en·dorse
1. To write one's signature on the back of (a check, for example) as evidence of the legal transfer of its ownership, especially in return for the cash or credit indicated on its face.
2. To place (one's signature), as on a contract, to indicate approval of its contents or terms.
3. To acknowledge (receipt of payment) by signing a bill, draft, or other instrument.
4. To give approval of or support to, especially by public statement; sanction:
Yet we endorse court cards, we sign cards for people sent to us by an Institution called "The Legal System"
I have had that as a commitment, "Court card signer"
I have had to have a card signed, more then once
We also read The Traditions (short form) at every meeting, including
3. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking
So to be a member you have to have a desire to stop drinking, you can be drunk as a Lord, and still be a member, I have no problem with drunk people with an honest desire to get sober, although many alcoholics won't talk to or work with wet ones, I do.
I won't however, waste my time on someone with no desire to stop drinking.
and Tradition
5.) Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. The inside of the third edition stated "It's message" was the first 164 pages of The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
It doesn't say anything anywhere about AA being required to sign anything for anybody, when they do so they are doing you a favor.
AA doesn't have to sign cards for the courts, they do so to help others, when I was getting my card signed I felt a lot of emotions (shame, guilt, embarrassment) but "entitlement" wasn't one of them
Those people were doing me a favor
AA is doing the legal system a favor, they didn't "owe" me anything when I was sent to AA by the courts, and when I heard the same things about people with court cards being sent to AA I didn't get upset with righteous indignation.
I was a guest in their house, and as such it behooved me to sit quietly and learn, because I wanted what they had.
AA isn't a social club for people who don't want to get sober, they already have those, we call them "Bars"
AA is for people who want to stop drinking, why else go to a meeting?
Would you sponsor someone who didn't want to stop drinking? Would you want them sharing at the meeting?
I welcome everyone with a smile, even a hug, but truthfully if someone tells me they don't want to quit drinking at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous our conversation is over, and I look for the alcoholic who is willing to grab on to this thing with the desperation of a drowning man, court card or not.
When I go looking for newcomers, I go to open meetings where they sign court cards, when I want to hear solid AA sobriety and feed my soul that way, I attend a closed meeting.
When I get righteously indignant I go straight to my bathroom mirror to see what the problem is, and I repeat to myself what my sponsor said to me no less then 8 million times:
The spiritual axiom is if you are upset there is something wrong with you
It hasn't been wrong yet, then I forgive the idjit looking back at me and laugh.
-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 25th of April 2010 09:23:08 PM
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
So far the tenth step axiom has alwas been correct in my case.
Larry, ----------------- Doing what is written in the Big Book produces the promises in the Big Book.
Ditto for me. For a while there, I used to be fuming (internally) at meetings. At one meeting, there was the guy who would bang his hand on the table and boast something along the lines of "And then I f&(*ing told that sponsee that that is a confession, not a job interview!" (probably still does, haven't been to that meeting in a while). Then there's the guy I lent £10 to and has never paid me back but who whenever he shares says that AA has made it so he now pays backs his debts, which he never did before; and then there's the guy who shares for about half an hour and then says with no irony, that the meeting isn't over until every newcomer has shared; there was the guy who'd been in about two weeks and tells everyone how the programme works and what they have to do to stay off the sauce; there's the guy who every meeting goes on about how admits that he is a bit long-winded and then says during this shares that if you don't want to listen to him, then there's the door.
And the only thing that I can do about most of this stuff is a tenth step inventory.
I used to worry about the impact on newcomers, but then my sponsor said: you hold the hand of friendship out to the newcomer -- if they went it, they'll keep coming back.
SteveP wrote:At one meeting, there was the guy who would bang his hand on the table and boast something along the lines of "And then I f&(*ing told that sponsee that that is a confession, not a job interview!" (probably still does, haven't been to that meeting in a while).
Then there's the guy I lent £10 to and has never paid me back but who whenever he shares says that AA has made it so he now pays backs his debts, which he never did before;
and then there's the guy who shares for about half an hour and then says with no irony, that the meeting isn't over until every newcomer has shared;
there was the guy who'd been in about two weeks and tells everyone how the programme works and what they have to do to stay off the sauce;
there's the guy who every meeting goes on about how admits that he is a bit long-winded and then says during this shares that if you don't want to listen to him, then there's the door.
And the only thing that I can do about most of this stuff is a tenth step inventory.
I thought we took our own inventory in the tenth step (sorry there is no rofl emoticon) I am kidding
I get that one confused too, continued to take their inventory and when they were wrong promptly admitted it, isn't that how that goes?
Haha, sorry couldn't couldn't resist, that had me cracking up
__________________
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Yep AGO -- I was certainly willing to admit that they were wrong, promptly. ;) At least pre-Step 10. ;)
Steve
PS Forgot to mention the guy every meeting who glares defiantly and says "back when I came in, I was told 'you want to get sober, there's the f&$^ing broom.'" ;)
