Sid,

If you feel ready than go for it with one caution.  I would recommend that you have a person in mind to share with for your step 5 already in place before you start step 4.

The directions for step 4 are in the big book and they seem to work best for most of us.  You can start without a sponsor, If you find you have questions those in your home AA meeting who have done step 4 can answer them or you can ask here on the MIP forum.

Your step 5 can be with anyone you can trust.  If done as mine was you will be sharing defects of character and secrets that I had intended on taking to the grave.  This is why it is important that it be a person you can trust.

The one deviation my sponsor had me do from the outline in the big book was:

1. He said step four says a seaching and fearless moral inventory.  It does not say
immoral inventory.

2. That being said he said that it was important for me to list my good traits in   addition to character defects.

3. He explained that alcoholics like us tend to beat ourselves up and think we are worthless when that is far from the truth.  Listing good traits helps stop this self flagellation.

Larry,
-------------------
You're Only
As Sick As
Your Secrets

I think it's important to do steps 1-3 before doing step 4 personally, and I mean work thoroughly with a sponsor, I think it's important to go over the Doctor's opinion, Bill's story, answer the questions on page 30 (step one) and go over the first 60 pages carefully with a sponsor, I think it's important to go over "There is a Solution", "We Agnostics" and "More about Alcoholism" with a lot of discussion and question and answer and go over step 3: pages 60-63 with a sponsor to truly understand what the first 3 steps are actually asking us before we start on step 4.

I think it's equally important to follow the Big Book's directions exactly, or it's not "The" program" it's something else. Cafeteria style recovery. A little of this, a little of that, leave this out, throw this in. Stone soup sobriety.

If I have a recipe for chicken soup, and not only not cook that soup with someone who has cooked it before, but start changing the recipe according to advice I heard on the intraweb, I am going to cook something, it just won't be the chicken soup I set out to make.

It will be something different, and the truth is, it may be good, I have seen many variations of the program be successful, but more often, I see it fail miserably, so for me, I'd follow the recipe and bring a guide to show me how it's done.

The sposor/sponsee dynamic has been a part of AA since it's inception, pre-dating The Big Book, it has worked successfully for millions for 80 years, and Yes Bill writes about it frequently in The 12 and 12, and the AA histories all write about sponsorship, to toss that out and recommend working the steps without a sponsor?????

As far as listing your good qualities in your fourth step, the actual instructions say the exact opposite:

Page 64 paragraph 3 "First, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure."

Page 67 paragraph 3 "The inventory was ours, not the other man's. When we saw our faults we listed them."

Page 71 paragraph 1 "If you have already made a decision, and an inventory of your grosser handicaps, you have made a good beginning."

Page 74, paragraph 2: "The rule is we must be hard on ourself, but always considerate of others."

There's one of those "musts" that the Big book supposedly doesn't have.

Personally I think it's incredibly irresponsible to tell newcomers to work the steps without a sponsor especially changing it and adding things not even in the book.

Yes, I find it upsetting to hear (read) that 2 people that the newcomer trusts suggest he works the steps without a sponsor following instructions not only not even in the book but exactly opposite of what the instructions actually say to do.

Reminds me of a woman I know that used the "Questions and answers about Sponsorship" Pamphlet as her Sponsor and now sponsors others. What message is she passing along?

That's just my opinion though, and as such, can be disregarded.

Personally I think an asset list is important to do at some point, much as a gratitude list is important, it's important to know what your strengths are.

It's just not The Program of Alcoholics Anonymous, it's something else.






-- Edited by AGO on Saturday 3rd of April 2010 11:58:29 PM

Did you work the steps without a sponsor?

Or was a sponsor important to you to work the steps?

What I said was irresponsible was suggesting he works the steps without a sponsor AND changing the clear cut directions in the Big Book that say the EXACT opposite. What message does that send? Do the steps with no guidance, and here, lets do the opposite of how it says to do them.

If I can't reconcile anything I say with those first 164 pages and the 12 and 12, I AM WRONG, it's MY program, not THE Program.

as it pertains to those in early recovery, I see some major problems with assuming that they are in-tune with their healthy instincts and/or their intuition and are capable of consistently making good, healthy decisions on that basis. I mean, maybe you get a lot of newcomers in Oregon who are adept at running their lives well and making good decisions for themselves on this basis, but here in California that is not usually the case. In fact, most of the newcomers I see end up in the rooms precisely because their trying to manage their own lives has not been working real well for them -- in fact, it has, in most cases, failed utterly.

Hence, Step 1, Part B: " that our lives had become unmanageable," and part of the reason for sponsorship in the first place <Freya>.

Fundamental to my recovery, is the concept of surrender. I have to be willing to go to any lengths. I believe there is some wonderful spiritual benefit in doing something that I disagree with, maybe even think is BS, but I'll do it anyway because I also know I don't have a clue how to stay sober. <Kieth>

You're right, we do have differing opinions, and that's OK, I prefer to follow the instructions laid out in the Big Book, you're way obviously works for you, and has for your 24 years, I get it, and vice versa, but what gets me sober might get someone else drunk, which I why I always return to the basic text.

Ellens program works for Ellen, but Andrew's program might not work for Sid, so I pass on what does seem to work, The Program.


-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 4th of April 2010 12:16:33 AM

heard and understood

Bottom Line

I still think it is irresponsible to tell a newcomer to work the steps without a sponsor while advising him to them the exact opposite of what that steps clearly stated directions say, and Yes, I feel strongly about it, and Yes I feel it's important.

We don't all have the experience of coming in and out of the rooms and hating women with big boobs and chasing men until we have to go on the lam and then are unable to get a sponsor or go to meetings and have to work the steps or die while on the run.

You have to admit that is a bit extreme. I am sorry you had to go through that, and even sorrier your daughter was put in harm's way as well as the result of this disease. Warped lives of blameless children. Mine was warped as well, sometime I will share it, it did incalculable damage to me, among other things going into drug deals at age ten carrying the pistol knowing where to stand and who to shoot in case the deal went wrong is not a normal childhood, so I get it. I can see how you had no difficulty with the unmanageable part of step one. I'd even repeat what Freya said:

as it pertains to those in early recovery, I see some major problems with assuming that they are in-tune with their healthy instincts and/or their intuition and are capable of consistently making good, healthy decisions on that basis.  Most of the newcomers I see end up in the rooms precisely because their trying to manage their own lives has not been working real well for them -- in fact, it has, in most cases, failed utterly.

So after your experiences of disregarding the "suggestions" and having those horrific experiences befall both you and your daughter as the direct result of not following those "suggestions" why in God's green Earth would you recommend the same thing to a newcomer?

Seriously

Not, "I came into the program, didn't follow the suggestions and this is where it lead me and these were the consequences to myself and my daughter...." but "yeah, do it the way I did it, don't get a sponsor, looked how it worked for me."

When you finally could attend meetings did you get a sponsor right away?

Did you surrender?

Which simply means "Go to the winning side" and all that entails, like Get a sponsor and do the steps?

Yeah our book is "suggestive"

Like, OK, now we have jumped out of the plane, it's suggested you open your parachute. It's not mandatory, and for X amount of time things will go smoothly.

If you don't follow "suggestions" then who is to blame at that sudden and abrupt wake up call? I see many blame the parachute, and I see that frequently, because they are told "these are only suggestions"

Well, yeah, they're suggestions about how to save your life. Why is it if you go to Flight School you don't get to start teaching the class after a week? Are you free to disregard the instructions and suggestions? Are you free to argue with the instructor even if all you have is a laundry list of plane crashes that stretch 20 years? So what happens when the other Flight instructors say, "It's Ok, we don't care that he has no clue how to fly a jet, let's just let him keep flying jets his way, the curriculum is suggestive only.

This is read at every single meeting I have ever attended in my life:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not.

. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Half measures availed us nothing.

"Our Path" is getting a sponsor and working the steps

I mean shit, it even says "Here are the steps we took"

Willing to go to any length is doing so

Not doing so is either extenuating circumstances or half measures

I totally disagree with you but value your experience and don't mean to invalidate it in any way shape or form, I just totally disagree with you on suggesting to a newcomer to do a step opposite of what the instructions say and do the steps without a sponsor, and yes, I do think it's irresponsible, and I have said so.

So do you suggest Sid take up with Bad Boys and go on the lam in order to work the steps without a sponsor too? I mean it did work for you

perhaps he could get a sponsor with blond hair and big boobs too just like you did 

I am joking the last 3 statements, I am trying to convey no hard feelings, we just disagree about this.

Here's a hug, and I mean it truly /AGO hugs Ellen


-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 4th of April 2010 01:04:03 AM

-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 4th of April 2010 01:17:15 AM

You know what, Andrew? My story is my story and you can ridicule it all you want and you can try to insult me and hurt me all you want but it isn't working. I HAD to get sober this way. I didn't have the option of doing it any other way. And if there had been other ways, I couldn't see them. It wasn't not following suggestions and not getting a sponsor that took me where I ended up with that guy and taking my little girl along. If you had read carefully and you weren't so eager to put me down because you're still peeved with me, you'd have seen me say that I was raised with abuse so I didn't know how to pick any different for myself when it came to relationships.

I followed suggestions to the best of my ability and I wanted sobriety so badly that I did the steps any way I could. It worked for me.

I responded to what Larry H said because I'd heard oldtimers tell their sponsees the same thing---don't forget to put in the good stuff when you do your 4th step, too. My sponsor told me the same thing. That works for some people.

You're talking out your ass when you say I said I "didn't follow suggestions and didn't follow the steps and look at the consequences for me and my daughter." You're trying to play nasty when that's really unkind. Where I went with that guy had nothing to do with not following suggestions and not working steps in AA. In fact, had I not been following suggestions and working steps the best way I could, my daughter and I would be dead, both of us. And I wouldn't have sought help and found solutions for that particular character defect. That was the workings of my Higher Power.

To quote you: "So after your experiences of disregarding the "suggestions" and having those horrific experiences befall both you and your daughter as the direct result of not following those "suggestions" why in God's green Earth would you recommend the same thing to a newcomer?"

As I said, these experiences were NOT the "direct result of not following these suggestions". That's an ignorant statement. I forgive you, though, Andrew. You've been lying patiently in wait for awhile and I figured you'd find a way to try to come back at me.

Coming back to add that maybe I confused you somewhat.  This person had been stalking me for two years.  He wasn't just someone I chose to hang out with right around the time I did that fourth step.  He'd been in my life, not with my free will, for a long time.  I'll grant you that you could have mistaken my post since I didn't make that clear.  I don't think you really care, though, so long as you could get in some digs. 

Let's just agree to disagree, Andrew, and practice live and let live.  You leave me alone, I'll leave you alone, and we can each practice the 12th step for the good of the still suffering. 






-- Edited by Ellen E on Sunday 4th of April 2010 01:49:36 AM

I appreciate all the responses. There seems to be some differing opinion, but I also see a good bit of similarities. The conclusion I am drawing is that I am not ready yet for step 4.

I realize at a minimum I need to discuss the steps further with those who have been successful, to do more reading and rereading, etc. I get a sense that even those who have been able to do the steps without a sponser had a much better understanding of the whole process and instructions to folllow in completing the steps.

This post has been helpful and given me many great suggestions for when I do get further into stop work. Up to this point I haven't really had any conversations with anyone related to completing the steps. I have been to several meetings, but have only listened and have had a quick read through the first 164 pages of the big book.

I think everyone would agree that having a sponser is the prefered method whenever possible. I know I am probably not unlike many newcomers who get a little over eager to get off to the races and working through the steps. For me I believe the best thing to do is try slowing things down, get as many suggestions as possible, be thorough and take it one step at a time.

I'll keep looking for a sponser as well.

Thank you everyone.

Well OK, All I was trying to say was not "hey you two are doing it wrong, or did it wrong, but "do you think it is advisable to tell a newcomer who hasn't really worked the first three steps thoroughly to continue with the steps without a sponsor and to do so in a way that disregarded the instructions laid out in the Big Book that say we laid out our faults?" No it doesn't say we DON'T write down our good qualities, except in the five or six places it says we write down our faults, and we are hard on ourselves and ad nauseum. The entire step says the opposite of we write down our good qualities. It seems pretty Self evident is what I'm looking for. My car manual doesn't tell me not to put gas in my radiator and don't put glycol in my gas tank either. It says, put gas here, and coolant here. It's self evident.

I felt pretty strongly about it and evidently came down a bit strong, for that I apologize.

I don't apologize for disagreeing with either of you, I still think it's a bad idea to advise Sid to go on work the steps without a sponsor, I just do, yes, I understand you both have been sober longer then me, and have both been around the program longer then me. If either of you were his sponsor, I wouldn't have said a word, because that would be undermining his sobriety, and the principals, and yes, there is more then one way to skin a cat. I don't necessarily think that working step 4 before working steps 1-3 is one of the better ways to skin said cat, but Dr Bob did step 9 on his first day, so I do admit to have having some flexibility, but to me the steps are a mathematical equation that bring about a personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism, and I get iffy and frightened when I see that changed around and called AA. Seeing a newcomer told to work step 4 before 1-3 freaked me out a bit.

There are other threads where you both are very very strong proponents of getting a sponsor and working the steps with said sponsor, and following the directions exactly laid out in the book, yet in this one there is a 180 degree turn, and you say the exact opposite, it's OK to work this step without a sponsor and lets just change it around some, maybe I just fail to understand why this is.

I do realize there is two schools of thought around this in AA, and I'm in the "purist" or "Big Book Thumper" camp, or the Joe and Charlie camp, that the fourth step is about removing flaws, step four is about clearing out what blocks us from God, not about giving our inner child a hug the way I understand it. That is it's purpose, to remove that is which is blocking us off from the sunlight of the spirit.

First, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure. Being convinced that self, manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.

When we saw our faults we listed them

We reviewed our fears thoroughly. We put them on paper

Now about sex. Many of needed an overhauling there. Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

If we have been thorough about our personal inventory, we have written down a lot. We have listed and analyzed our resentments.

If you have already made a decision, and an inventory of your grosser handicaps, you have made a good beginning.

I just stick to the book, and I am not going to apologize for that, if I am wrong, or what I say isn't in the program, I stand corrected. I have heard a lot of stuff from a lot of people with a lot of time that I didn't always agree with.  I heard a guy recently with near 50 years going on and on recently about how he knew more then those fellas that wrote that book ever knew, that they were newcomers, wet behind the ears, and only had 4 years, and he had 50 years and all you had to do was go to these meetings....

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.

Mahatma Gandhi

Doesn't make him right, doesn't make me want what he has....

I even quit my job and started sculpting because I heard "Do what you love and the money will follow" by an old timer at a meeting once, with some success I might add LOL because I thought it was "AA"

It was great advice, and it helped me greatly, that doesn't make it AA

Thing is when I got here I didn't know what AA was or wasn't, I was in a state of total surrender, if an oldtimer had told me I had to get Naked and stand in the middle of the freeway with a feather stuck in my butt to achieve sobriety I would have done so, so I don't understand the whole "If anyone would have told ME what to do I would have gone back out and died!!!"

I mean according to your story on this and another thread that is exactly what happened. You came to AA, were told to get a sponsor, don't date, don't chase men and work the steps so you went out and almost died.

I didn't think pointing that out would be considered hurtful, because it was you that told that story.

I just don't understand it, I was willing to do whatever anyone told me, and one of those things they told me was sit down, shut up and listen. To take the cotton out of my ears and stick it in my mouth.

I had the gift of desperation, and I was informed if I didn't like it, I could take myself off and go drink until I got a little more reasonable. I was told that alcohol was the great persuader. When I got to AA I remembered everything they told me, and while I did a lot "wrong" as well, the truth is I was pretty malleable. I was done doing what I was doing, my life was unmanageable and I was so desperate I did what they told me to the best of my ability, I was out of Pride, my way didn't work any more.

I listened to what the old timers told me and accepted it as Gospel, so when I saw two 2 oldtimers that he respects telling him basically to disregard what the book said and don't worry about getting a sponsor I got frightened. A big part of what frightened me was I felt the message being sent to the newcomer was "don't worry about following the suggestions (get a sponsor) or following instructions (write good stuff in the inventory although the book says the opposite).

That to me is an incredibly frightening "double bind" to place on a newcomer.

Follow all the suggestions except the ones you think it's OK to disregard and follow the BB instructions exactly except where we say it's OK to do it differently. I think it gets a bit different with a sponsor/sponsee relationship, because those decisions are discussed.

I am sorry I responded from that place of fear.

I do humbly say, yes, I think it is irresponsible to suggest to him that he should work the steps without sponsor, that he should work step four without really working steps 1-3, and I had hoped I was clear that it was just my opinion and that therefore it was open to be disregarded, Look we disagree, that's OK

@Ellen

I am sorry I hurt your feelings, I really shouldn't have brought up your daughter, I didn't mean to ridicule your story, I was trying to lighten this up with humor, I wasn't trying to attack you, I wasn't trying to make "digs",  I was trying to make a point that I thought you had already made about yourself on another thread, I wasn't trying to "talk out of my ass", and I didn't think I was making ignorant and erroneous assertions, as it seemed to me you had written those exact things about yourself:

Ellen E wrote:

---

I was pretty picky with sponsors. I had to find just the "right" sponsor. I really wanted a guy sponsor because I got along better with men, but they said I had to find a woman sponsor so I held off on it for a long time. So I'd just tough it out and talk to guys more than women and I figured that was my "sponsor". The women I disliked the most were the pretty blondes with big blue eyes and big boobs and who gave me competition with men and it seemed like there were too many of those in meetings to suit me.

And I did what AGO said guys do----I got a guy, (sometimes more than one) got a job, got a car----and got drunk.

So then I quit drinking again, went back to meetings, got a job, got a guy, got a car, got a sponsor----never called her. Got drunk.

Lost the job, lost the car, lost my kids, lost my will to live anymore, had a guy who nearly obliged me by trying to kill me, but this time I did get the message that I had to get serious about doing what was suggested to me or I was going to die.

---

When I read that it seemed to me that your actions in disregarding the suggestions, two of which the very very strongest are no new relationships in your first year and don't date newcomers, which also aren't in the book, but seem to have a sound basis led directly to you meeting this guy, returning to drinking, and having that sequence of horrible events take place that you described in this thread.

I do truly apologize if I misunderstood, and I especially apologize if what I wrote made you feel attacked. I have this thing where I remember almost everything that I read, and in some cases I guess I remember it wrong. So I am truly sorry if I misunderstood the sequence of events, from the previous thread  I truly did think you coming in to the rooms, not getting a sponsor, not following suggestions, getting in relationships your first year, and chasing men and the disease of alcoholism and your relapsing lead to you meeting that man and that all lead to that situation. I thought it was irrefutable fact the way I read it because it looked to me that was the way you wrote it.

I misunderstood then. I am sorry. I am truly very sorry.

I will really continue to work harder on my communication skills when I feel strongly about something, and I am truly very sorry to both of you if you were hurt or offended, especially you Ellen.

Hey Sid, I am very sorry I was part of allowing your thread to go off topic, I really tried to aim my posts for you and not allow it to get derailed, I disagree with them, but they have more time then me, once again, I think there is merit in doing an asset list, but I really suggest getting a sponsor to work the steps, and I bet if you ask both of them directly, "should I get a sponsor to work the steps" they would both say emphatically yes.


-- Edited by AGO on Sunday 4th of April 2010 03:14:16 PM

I value everyones opinion here, because you all have what I want. I am greatful to have this forum to be able to communicate with you all. I do think however as helpful as this forum is, that it can't alway replace actual face to face interaction.

Most likely if I had one on one conversations with each of you here you would all provide very similar advice. I believe I still have work to do on steps 1-3, need to do more reading, praying and seeking and taking suggestions before I should takle further steps. I know there is plenty of work I can do "myself", but I'm realizing to take advantage of all the help available within AA that I can.

I do believe everyone here would suggest that ideally getting a sponser would be the way to go. I don't have any circumstances really preventing me from finding a sponser. So that is something I need to do.

I did like the suggestion that an asset list might have merit. My thoughts have been lopsided towards the negative, so thinking of some positives would probably be helpful.

Hey ya Sid,
My .02 & Experience, Strength & Hope...
The Steps are in order for a reason. Starting a solid #4 without really "feeling" the willingness to turn life & will over to a Higher Power would have been too much for me. Only when I truly "felt" the willingness to accept my Higher Power's strength and will as all-encompassing, all-forgiving and so, so, so much greater than my own...was I able to face my defects and demons.

After I embraced my Higher Power with child-like trust for a loving parent, I knew that God would help me carry my baggage until I was ready to actually ask Him to carry it away from me.

I love your enthusiasm to embrace sobriety in AA's path.
You Alone Can Do It, But You Can't Do It Alone.

Peace,
Rob

ljc wrote:

---

It has been my experience that by following the book, praying to the God of my understanding and taking the suggestions of my sponsor have helped me to acheive the sobriety I have today.

The book suggests we take step 3 with Someone . Have you done that yet ?

I would highly suggest you find a sponsor and soon. Same sex, preferrably someone who has worked the steps themselves, had the spiritual awakening and is willing to guide you.

I know what doing things 'myself' got me. Drunk !!!

---

I realize I need to back up and be sure to have worked steps 1-3 properly before attempting anything else.

I was curious about taking step 3 with Someone. Does that mean praying with a sponsor? Or confiding in someone that we are turning our life over to our HP?

I suppose I could look it up in the BB or ask at a meeting, but while I was thinking about it thought it worthwhile to ask here.

 

You beat me by 7 minutes AGO. I had just finished reading the pages you noted and was going to make a post stating so. Thanks for your response.

I'm on step 4 myself. I also have a sponsor & don't work a step unless she feels I'm ready to move on to the next. That's what a sponsors for is to guide me through the steps. If I don't follow my sponsors suggestions then I feel I'm wasting her & my time both.

Thanks Ellen. I do have a Big Book. I was fortunate to have been given one at the first meeting I attended. I did find the reading you suggested and did find it answered my question.

Now who's off topic, yours truly wirh a 10th Step.

Hi Again to Larry, Ellen and AGO,

Had a strange morning, and did some thinking, and had to come back to say to AGO, I apologize for my harse remarks, and I was the one saying that you were too critical....
Lesson Learned...

And Sid, sure hope that with all this information on the 4th Step, you can move forward, and as Aquaman said, the most important thing is that they always be done in Order.

So without too much more ado, will say bye for now, I need to be here on MIP, because I need the We part of this Program always.

Toni

We do care about you Sid. We learned how to genuinely and sincerely care for other alcoholics and ppl in general by doing the best darned job we can to stay sober ourselves and work the program of AA.

I can really only speak for myself but If I dont help others, I will not grow.

I actually picked up the phone today and called someone I thought would be a great sponser.

He was actually the first phone number I ever got. When I was going to go to my first meeting I went to the wrong place and ended up at some type of planning meeting. I talked to this person a bit then and left feeling impressed. I have been hoping to run into him at a meeting sometime, but hadn't yet.

Anyway, I called and he met me at a meeting tonight. We had a great chat and will be keeping in touch. He lives close to me as well, so it will be convienent just to get together to hang out and talk.

That's great, Sid! Good going! Now, that's not so hard, is it?

Psssst! You're supposed to say "no"! LOL

For me, it was a lot harder in my mind than it was actually doing it.

Wow, great to hear Sid.

Someone wrote a Post a while back or made the comment,

"Time take Time".....loved that.

Hope all goes so smoothly, it sure sounds as AGO put it, like
serendipity to me.....love you enthusiaum....

Toodles, Toni