Antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds & AA

lukin · Veteran Member

Antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds & AA

runnergirl · Senior Member

Lukin-
I'm more of a newbie than you, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I, too, am on prozac for depression. From what I know, antidepressants are totally fine. One of my best friends who has been in the program for many years is on them as well. I'm with you on needing them and having those not-so-good thoughts without them... I am starting to notice them working much better when I don't couple them with alcohol. Keep it up. I think you are right... Your sponsor likely has no experience with depression.
God bless,
Laurie

leeu · MIP Old Timer

Danger! Danger! Someone is practicing medicine without a license!

And it sounds like neither one of the sponsors have read the AA literature.

It really is very ignorant and potentially truly dangerous for someone not trained/experienced to tell someone to take or not take certain medications. It is our responsibility, as recovering (or recovered) alcoholics to seek out the best medical and psychiatric practitioners we can find, who are cross-trained, if we need help in those areas.

There's a 12 Step group called Dual Recovery Anonymous...it's not in all states but worth checking out if there's meetings in yours. http://draonline.org/

Aquaman · MIP Old Timer

Damned Straight Lee!
My sponsor & I went through this, too. When he started on the program 30 years ago there were few choices for the anxiety & depression afflicted, because the disease was not fully understood. Yes, you will find SOME Old Timers who say "sobriety means taking NOTHING that alters mood or perception" or some such blather. They learned that when your choices were valium, librium, thorazine and some other stuff that made excellant street-drugs, as well. That was then. This is now.

NO member of AA is an acting physician and even physicians who happen to be in AA are not supposed to act in that capacity within the scope of AA.

AA's purpose is to help each other stay sober, within the guidelines of the 12 steps, our experience, strength & hope & and our literature. A sponsor, or anyone else who suggests going against your physician's instructions, is armchair doctoring and waaaaayyyyyyyy outta line.

My Old Timer now acknowledges that there is a big difference between ".5 mg xanax as needed not to exceed 3x/day" and "Pissed off? Go on a bender!"

I may get PMed or even openly flamed for saying this and please keep in mind that this is ROB'S opinion and not AA doctrine, but AA seems to work extremely well when an individual gives themselves over to the program enthusiastically, completely and without a hint of doubt. Great, Good for them & God Bless.

But...like anything good that helps the helpless and especially anything with spiritual overtones, there will be fanatics and those fanatics can turn something very good into a source of pride & power for themselves.

Me? Through AA I was found by God. Through AA I'm getting to know the happy little boy I used to be. Through AA & sobriety I am a better man, husband, father, employee and friend.

But I still have the chemical disease in my nervous system of depression and anxiety. Until I no longer see a wire noose as an attractive alternative to living, until my psychiatrist can teach me 100% reliable coping skills and until my physician says I'm good to go... ".5 mg xanax as needed not to exceed 3x/day".

Peace,
Rob

jasperkent · Senior Member

lukin, if you were abusing your meds it would be a different story. I don't think you can get high on Prozac. Listen to your docotor about medical issues.

Keep coming back!

SeanInBoca · Member

The reason she told you that she had to ask your "grand sponser" if those meds would be ok to take is probably because she doesn't know what Prozac was. Obviously if she knew that the propensity to abuse an SSRI is very limited I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with it. If you asked her if taking Xanax would be ok than I'm sure that would be a different conversation.

Just my two cents.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

Either set a serious boundary with the sponsor that your meds are not up for discussion, or start looking for another sponsor. I wouldn't suggest that you Not drop one before finding another. This is something that I'm sure that you can work out.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Tuesday 15th of December 2009 09:25:54 PM

Avril G · Senior Member

AAAGGGHHH WHAT does it take for AA members to get THE message?? I take every day, enough pills and potions to sink a battleship, but I am not walking around very slowly crying 'Make love not war' or 'Hey, peace man' I take the meds as prescribed, and all have been prescribed for 4 fairly serious ailments, by doctors and consultants, all of whom know what I am taking, and that I am an alcoholic in recovery. I also have to have a full health MOT to check any changes in my general condition, and to see if my pain and stiffness is any better or worse.

None of them are mind altering UNLESS I abuse them, or take more than 12 daily, which seems to be the cut off point as written on the prescription.

There's another thread on prescribed meds click the link if you haven't already seen it.
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42735&p=3&topicID=31450668

Your post got me thinking, 'OK, we have good news and bad news' The good news is - your sponsor has a sponsor and she likes to double check with her. Very good practise, so long as the pair of them realise they have no business to talk about meds, except if there is something in your 4/5th steps in which both drugs and alcohol played a part and even then, nobody should play doctor with any other member.

Now IF she tells you, having talked to her sponsor, that you shouldn't 'be allowed' then the bad news is - no matter how long into sobriety they are, neither of them know what they're talking about.

BUT IF having talked to her sponsor she realises that prescribed meds, or any drug other than alcohol, is an outside issue, and nobody is qualified to give advice on meds or other drugs, that is for you and your doctor.

There is good reference to this topic as you said in the Big Book, and also Living sober, with a whole chapter dedicated to prescribed medication. There is also an AA pamphlet called 'The AA member and prescribed medication'
Quite recently I was sponsoring a girl who was on a couple of tablets for clinical depression, and she asked me to sponsor her, and I said I would, and she told me that she had already asked 3 other female members, but none of them woud sponsor her because she was on 'drugs'

Oh my heart sank, as I had tried to sponsor an alcoholic/addict a couple of years previous to this, and I just wasn't up to sponsoring her, as she always had to identify herself with her drugs habit, and I am happy to say that I just couldn't help her. My first thought were 'What are you on? Heroin? coke? crystal meth? and I coudn't believe that 3 so-called sober members refused to sponsor her on these grounds.

I had to let her go, but I called a group conscience meeting as I wanted the other 3 females to hear what AA says about drugs i.e. NOTHING except it's an outside issue. The worst part of this story is that I am heavily involved with Public Information, and have a great rapport with a few GP's in the area. One day this doctor rang me and asked me about (girls name) as she had been told to see her GP (by her 'sponsor') and tell him that you can't get sober whilst taking the meds.

Now, I have worked long and hard to try to get as many doctors as possible refering to AA, and those that I have contacted and talked to are seeing results in a matter of weeks, and we are held in high esteem, but this day this particular doctor was LIVID. I told him that we can't really watch everyone to make sure they are doing the right thing, and I thanked himn for the call, and asked him to let me know if it happens again.

OH MY GOD am I on a roll or WHAT? I'll leave it here, though this topic is a real bugbear for me, and I could talk about what's happened to a few members who have been given this advice who I do believe could have got and stayed sober if f the AA gurus had kept their sodding gobs shut.

-- Edited by Avril G on Tuesday 15th of December 2009 09:24:07 PM

jonijoni1 · MIP Old Timer

I agree with leeu------

tell your sponsor to read her Bigh Book, then go to your doctor and do what he/she wants you to do. Some of us cannot get a good footing in sobriety unless we do additional things that our doctors need to help us with... I need very much to take care of my mental health WHILE learning and following the 12 Steps of AA. Anyone who has an opinion about your meds other than you doctor is not working the program as laid out in the Big Book, but using their OWN personal opinion, which if used wrecklessly, can kill someone, or at the very least, make their start in AA a lot more difficult than it has to be.

Just my opinion here, and the Big Book's opinion-- "we are NOT doctors"

For a reference from my ES&H, which I have shared here before, I had an old timer as a sponsor, who had nearly 30 years sobriety. I was raped and put on some psych meds, and she refused to take me through the steps, saying that U would be "emotionally numb" and would not be able to achieve a spititual awakening if I was on any kind of medication like that. I spoke to my counselor and to a few ladies who also had a lot of recovery, and one of them showed me that very place in the Big book that talks about recieving outside help. I fired my sponsor and got one who was willing to not advise me against something that was clearly out of line, about my medical treatment. I am still very good friends with the elder lady I mentioned, and I think we BOTH learned something from that experience.

Take care, pray about it, and certainly do not just go dumping your sponsor until you have talked about the issue, and brought up that portion of the Big Book, for her to view.

Just my 2 cents, anyone here can take it or leave it.
Take care,
Joni

Jerry F · MIP Old Timer

Wow!!...Grrrr Let me have a piece of that sponsor too!!   Grrrr.    LOL Sponsors
are people just and only and they make mistakes and get fired at time or two
also.   Set the boundary and thank her for her concern. If she can't handle it
go find another without fanfare. I am also a life long depressant and have been
dystymic from birth. Weird depression; it turns itself on and off. Meds kinda
screw up handling my life as a depressant because I get to do that and have the
after affect or during affect of the chemicals. So I take em as I needs em and
work the program best I can whether I do or don't.   I drank through Dystymia
also and then alcohol is a depressant itself...coulda saved a ton of money and
problems maybe? Better outcomes with the program.       In support. smile

BGG · Senior Member

I have sponsored various women over the course of my sobriety who take prescribed medications. I ask them only two questions about it: (1) have you told your doctor that you are a recovering alcoholic (in case the doctor might make a different prescription knowing that information); and (2) are you taking the medication as prescribed? As others have said, the Big Book specifically directs us to seek outside help when it is necessary. I believe that your sponsor is misguided and misinformed on this issue, and hopefully will get sound A.A. advice from your grand-sponsor.

I have also learned from my own past experience with sponsorship that I have sometimes had a tendency towards co-dependency in all of my relationships, including with women I have sponsored. I have learned that my role as a sponsor is not to try to "run" or direct someone else's life. When I stick with sharing my own personal experience, strength and hope (especially as it relates to the 12 Steps), and with being a willing ear to listen to them, both of us are much the better for it.

Just Toni · MIP Old Timer

Hi Lukin,

Some years ago, I took a class in Neuropharmicology, it was the first in a Program of becoming an Addiction Courselor. We had the very best of the lecturers in this field, a real expert, At a UC Berkeley extension building in San Francisco.

This man was someone that communicated what he was saying so crystal clearly, that I ended up with notes on his lectures being the reason for my final A- in this difficult course.

.....he went over every single drug on the market, all the SSRIs, all the Benzo's and all the pycho active drugs for the mentally ill, what the point of his work was to let us understand and comprehend completely what each drug will do once taken into the body.

The SSRI's were completely safe, they had a definite change in the workings of how the seratonin levels would change, with complete drawings, on his blackboard, and also to the pycho active drugs, that would slow down some of the transmissions going on inside a mentally disturbed person.

And in respect to the Benzodiapines, he lectured that when given by a Physcian to a Chemically dependant person, such as an alcoholic or drug addict, they had, in his words, the "Potential" of becoming a "Gateway Drug" back to other drugs or alcohol.

But he did stress that these drugs that were taken by someone that was in Recovery from Alcoholism, or Drug addiction, ONLY needed to be very aware of this potential, and for the person that was taking these so called Gateway Drugs, that only if that same person started abusing or overusing, as an example, he pointed out, that should several tablets of Valium were taken at the same time, they would lead to a feeling of a "High" thus making it a real danger in the Gateway drug....to turn on them and back into their disease they would go.

For many reasons, a Benzo is prescibed, with a doctor fully being aware of the person's history, and feeling confident enough with that person, and from the start, telling that person, that this drug has the side effect of becoming addictive. Just so that same addictive personality would be forewarned for the future.

I ditto what another person wrote, very dangerous territory to be involved in, when dealing with someone new in Recovery... the Program does suggest that we tell our doctors that we are in Recovery, and I believe it is left there.

Toni

Oops, forgot to say one important thing, this Lecturer was a person in Recovery, just under 20 years, and ran a Recovery Home exclusively for Herion addicts, when he was not lecturing at UC Berkeley....

-- Edited by Just Toni on Wednesday 16th of December 2009 09:21:32 PM

squeaky · Newbie

I find it hard being in AA, and not being on medication. Things seem a little to clear. It's no fun being sober and feeling like an outsider in AA. I feel blessed, and cursed at the same time. Here's y story:

I am terrified of medication...and I may have a possible reason why. When I was young, (6 or 7), I would crawl into the cabinets in the back of the house, and riffle through the meds that my Mom kept there (go figure.) They gave me what I was looking for. Only Sudafed, and Dristan, of the many choices I tried, seemed to have the desired effect of calming the nerves of a terrified child. (You can guess why I was terrified.) Then, they ran out. At that age, I had no money, and had no idea where to get more. But, there was the liquor cabinet! Ahhhhhh! Relief, at last! And, and ENDLESS SUPPLY! So, my theory is that this fear that they would run out is deeply engrained in my subconscious. The experience of having, then not having, meds, was excruciating. I now assume that this is what drives some children, and adults, to suicide. Another theory that I have is that most suicides are caused by a change in medication, including a change in ingredients.

I am an extreme case. If I can become addicted to it, I will. My higher power has me off gluten, all sweeteners (yes...all: honey, fructose, maple syrup, sugar, sweet and low, etc.), off caffeine, off theobromide (and any other stimulant I come across), off all fumes (solvents, gas, cologne, etc.) When I raised my hand at an AA meeting to say that I had relapsed, and that the substance came from my profession (solvents from a restoration business) my well respected sponsor fired me and I felt like plutonium. (No one would touch me.) As it turned out, my sponsors sponsor (who worked with chemicals) told him to do so. Now, because of my anger, coupled with a heighten awareness and self-righteousness, I am having all kinds of revelations...most I wish I didn't have. I have, for example, discovered a clique in my AA community, that has a young woman passing out Vicodin that I assume she gets from here physician father. (Or maybe, it just that she has some connections.)

Other thoughts:
Newcomers are always attracted to people on drugs for help, before some one off drugs.
People on drugs are asked to speak at meetings (especially big meetings) before people off drugs.
AA is a political organization that must be pro drugs to be accepted in the real world.
All healers are on drugs (therapists, nurses, priests, rabbis, people who just like to help.)
AA is like professional baseball. Some have an advantage through performance enhancing drugs.
AA is sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry.
AA must be accepted by the Church to survive.
AA keeps those out without health insurance. They have no choice but to turn to street drugs. AA could be doing more harm that good to society as a whole.
AA...the last house on the block. How sad is that!

Having said all that: I love AA! (I have no choice.)

There is much more to say.

bikerbill · MIP Old Timer

lukin wrote:

And then she tells me that she has to "check with her grand-sponsor"

Good, your sponsor doesn't know the answer, knows that she doesn't know hte answer and knows to go check.

to see whether I'm "allowed" to keep taking my 10mg of prozac that I take every day,

worrying. Your doctor will be able to tell you whether or not to take meds As Prescribed, not your sponsor or grand sponsor or any other bugger in AA, unless they are your Doctor and they are doing so Outside of AA!

I've been a member for just over 4 years. Long enough to get a medical qualification. So far no-one in AA has shown me where to enrol on the medical degree and I haven't seen anyone graduate. Outside of AA I'm a Professional Project Manager and Commercial Relationship Manager. Inside AA I'm Bill, Alcoholic. Nothing more, nothing less.

StPeteDean · MIP Old Timer

sqeaky, I hope that the "Other Thoughts" section of your post is a joke, because none of it's true. Use the edit button on the right.

-- Edited by StPeteDean on Monday 27th of December 2010 06:39:00 PM

Old Timer · Newbie

I sobered up in 75 and their were few people on drugs then. Now it's about 30% if I'm to believe what I'm told. I find that I am drawn to NA meetings since they as a rule still believe in clean and sober. It's funny that you all feel that you are unique and somehow different than the rest of us. We all have a chemical imbalance or we wouldn't be in AA. I defy anyone of you to say that the depression I suffered in the beginning was insignificant to yours. Most of us have found ways to work on our problems without going back to the old idea that we could get a quick fix out of a bottle, pill or otherwise. In my experience people who have lost several years to a relapse tell me that they were using some type of mind altering chemical. Chapter 5 covers this pretty well. There are those with grave emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. I place myself in that category by the way. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas but the result was nil until we let go absolutely. We beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. What part of this does not smack of and easier softer way? When reading these posts it reminded me of whistling in the dark. Oh I have researched these wonder drugs on line and it sounds like the same old BS that Big Pharma has been using to sell their poison since the days of Valium. In several states you can get a script for marijuana that would be ok right? One thing is certain when you don't automatically give your blessing to the use of mind altering drugs in AA you better be ready for what's coming and it won't be pretty.

Pythonpappy · MIP Old Timer

Welcome to MIP Old Timer, ... I used to have a similar opinion of the use of drugs to function 'normally' ... However, since my son had his accident at 29 years old, and became a quadriplegic, I was critical of his prescriptions for what seemed like excessive pain meds ... since then, I've witnessed the pain he goes through when he goes without them ... crushed bone fragments press against his nerves (inoperable), and they cause severe pain ... without his meds, he'd soon 'blow his brains out' ... of this, I am certain ...

So, I leave the prescriptions up to the professionals ... I think that's why God has them available ... to make decisions based on their experience and wisdom, not ours ... I used to think that with enough faith, God would heal anything we might come up with ... since being in this program for a few years now, I've come to realize that God answers our prayers sometimes by making another avenues available to get through life different than what I expect Him/Her to do ... so it's really none of my business about meds others take ... That's between them and their higher power ...

Love ya man and God Bless,
Pappy

Fyne Spirit · MIP Old Timer

Pappy,

I think Old Timer isn't suggesting that someone suffering such a serious injury such as you describe should not be entitled to pain relief. That's a different issue to what he is talking about. My experience is similar to Old Timers, but I would suggest a different part of the book as a reference point.

It's not really about the substances. In themselves they are neither good nor evil, they just are. The wonderful thing about SSRIs, for example, is that they are not addictive and you can't get high on them - great. Alcohol is non addictive - to most people, but it's a problem for me. Mainly, it doesn't get me high, it changes the way I feel. SSRIs change the way we feel as far as I can tell, and if they can kill off some of the unpleasant feelings that go with early sobriety, then they are doing the job alcohol used to do. So do we need them or not?

I am sure there are cases where use of such medications for short periods of stabilisation is desirable if not essential. Equally, there are a very few of us with grave emotional and mental disorders who will always need medication, as would be those with chronic pain. But Old Timer is not talking of those in genuine need. He is talking about alcoholics of my type who like to look for easier softer ways. It's not the substance, it's not the doctor. What is in question is the self honesty of the alcoholic. It is explained in the book thus:

"Psychologists are inclined to agree with us. We have spent thousands of dollars for examinations. We know but few instances where we have given these doctors a fair break. We have seldom told them the whole truth nor have we followed their advice. Unwilling to be honest with these sympathetic men, we were honest with no one else."

I think someone said " you can't abuse prosac" in this thread. That depends on what you call abuse. If I am dishonest with my doctor in order to get a prescription, then I am abusing his trust, and the medication, even if I am taking it as directed, because, if the doctor knew the truth, he would never have prescribed the medication in the first place.

Remember the indispensible requirements for sobriety" Honesty, open mindedness and willingness" If one of those is missing, the best that can be hoped for is a second rate recovery.

God bless,

Mike H.