I'm working with a sponsor who has been sober 10 years. I was raised Catholic but no longer consider myself to be one - the thought of organized religion still fills me with revulsion and particularly the use of the phrase "Jesus Christ Our Lord".
I just finished my fifth step with him. He had me read the section about step six in the 12 & 12.
But now he is diverting from the Big Book. He says that this is "just a little extracurricular reading we do" - 'we' referring to his line of sponsorship.
The topic itself is not a big deal to me, the "Seven Deadly Sins". But the book, called "A Year To Remember", (1988), was written by a reverend.
The section he asked me to read begins with the author's opinion that AA is basically just Chrisitanity re-packaged. Or at least that's the impression I get. Not exactly the kind of thing I want to hear. And sprinkled liberally throughout the entire section are the words "Jesus", "Christ", "Our Lord", "God" (which wouldn't matter so much in the Big Book, although they've taken pains to avoid using it liberally, but is a big deal here because I know damn well the author is talking about HIS God), "Scripture", "Gospel", and many other biblical references and passages.
I am offended. Even though I am willing to believe that there are things worth reading, the source offends me within an AA context and I feel crossed-up in a way. I stopped reading and sent my sponsor a message saying, "Seems like a pretty risky thing to have someone still in early sobriety read someone's opinion that AA is just Christianity in disguise. Even if it's true. What if I'd rather die?"
His response was, "Just read". Well, I've been willing to follow direction up to this point, but up to this point the directions have been coming from the Big Book.
I responded, "Fine. But don't expect me to assign the same reading to my own sponsees if I have any. Too much Jesus Christ for my taste. Diverting from the program."
But in reality I'm having a very difficult time deciding what to do - whether to read the rest of it, (while still full of resistance and resentment), or just to say, "Look, you've been a great sponsor but I don't think I can continue with you now" and find a new sponsor.
I'm sure you'll tell me that is my decision, which of course it is. But any advice or thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.
Thats a tough one FS! I am a Christian and for me the concept of Jesus is becoming more and more important in my life. Having said that, its not what AA is about. I really think you should call a "time out" with this guy. (Also, don't use this as an excuse to drink!!!) Talk to him about this and lay it out with your HP as well. I understand if he is trying to "save your soul" because he is evangelical, at the same time he is trying to help you through the steps, but he needs to stick with the program. I feel you are correct in thinking this is not right. Do you think it is possible to talk this out with your sponsor? He just may be trying too hard. I think that if he can not seperate his HP from yours, its not going to work, and you will need a new sponsor. Interestingly, I started out like you and now I am probably leaning towards him in the HP department, but that occured with time and no pressure. Good Luck! I hope it works out. Tom
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
Congrats on making it 8.5 months and to the 6th step.
Relax, take some deep breaths and remember that your sponsor is just trying to help you.
It's just an article, no cause for resentement. Has it brainwashed you yet? LOL
I've been sober a long time, still not into any kind of organized religion. If they are helpful to some people, I'm ok with that also.
I'm sure there are some parallels with the AA program and religions and parallels between religions, but I would not agree with the statement that AA is Christianity repackaged.
The BBook on page 87 states "Be quick to see where religious people are right and make use of what they have to offer".
The above statement doesn't say we need be religous or accept anything or everything from any religion. Just keep an open mind where the information can be helpful and can apply to our lives.
I would suggest reading the material and hold your own council about what is helpful and what is not. Just because the author is talking about "his God" does not mean it can't apply to your God.
I know your sponsor has shown a lot of "Love and Tolerance" working with you, If nothing else maybe this can be a good exercise in returning the favor.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
I and others can attest to this--we may not be religous in any sort--but there are other ways around it. In AA there is the Higher Power--for some it can be God, Jesus, but for others it can be Your Home Group, Someone You admire(either living or dead) your pet, it can be anything or anyone you are comfortable about.
You are not bound by what others think, say or do. For some things it has to be what you believe in. A Jouneral or just writings down what you feel will do. You do not have to share that with anyone if you do not want to.
It may make a difference as to how you perceive things. This would be your own record of feelings and sayings.
FlyingSquirrel -- I'd be angry, too. At one time I'd have been extremely angry. Now I'm more tolerant of others' faith in organized religion, but it is not my cup of tea. Neither should AA be associated with religion in any way.
Consider Tradition Ten(The Long Form): "No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues---particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever."
In Steps Three and Eleven, the word "God" is followed by the phrase "as we understood Him," emphasized in italics.
In Alcoholics Anonymous, an entire chapter is devoted to We Agnostics. Nowhere is it suggested that we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior.
I could go on and on. Obviously, one can find parallels between AA and Christianity. And Judaism. And Buddhism. And Taoism. And Scientology. Probably Numerology, too, if you look hard enough.
Have you considered finding a "co-sponsor" to talk to? It might help. Or you might just consider the reading a suggestion that you are not ready to take. Let me know how things work out.
Just don't drink no matter what. Glad you're here.
Around here a good sponsor is, sometimes, hard to find. Won't get into the whys or why I think it so.
I've tried to think and honestly answer the question of if my sponsor as me to read something other than conference approved, or A.A. related material.....
I guess at first I'd be surprised. And I think, in a respectful manner, let them know I am surprise. Then I'd have to honestly check my motives for not wanting to read it. But, I think I would do it. Keeping an open mind might be difficult. But, I'd TRY. If a request to read more non-AA material, well that would depend on what I felt their motives where.
I have no idea what this book is about, but I promise I intend to seek it out. I've found some books out there are story of people, reverends too, that are about recovery from alcoholism through A.A.
Thanks for sharing and please let us know "the outcome".
The timing of his suggestion seems a bit off. He signed off on your step 2 and 3 right? Did he not think you did a thorough job investigating and describing your higher power? If he wants to broaden your perspective, I can think of other AA approved literature that might be helpful. You might have already read this, but the book "Come to believe" is particularly useful and it is generally just an accumulation of spiritual experiences people had in the program. Otherwise, I say why not read the book he suggested with an open mind. What if you had a sponsee later who did choose Christ as his HP? Wouldn't you want to know more? Maybe looking at it that way will help. Congrats on 8 and a half months!! Way to go FS!
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Greetings, Once heard "religion is for people afraid of going to Hell. Spirituality is for people who have Been There." So grateful A. A. is a spiritual program. I sort of have way enough of my share of Hell. Time for much Grace. Easy Does It, Toad
Dear Glenn, thank you for sharing your truth & current feelings on this subject. I know I grew up having some very hostile feelings towards Jesus as a Higher Power & I hated it if people fed it to me from their point of view. I just hated it. I was frightened & angry about it really to be honest & these feelings alienated me from having an open & loving mind. It was my prejudice toward people's part in organised religion that I resented. I hated that it seemed so contradictory. I had allsorts of prejudice & small mindedness about it that ultimately there was alot about it I was missing out on really. I went to a retreat in the first few months of my sobriety & there people had a distinct affinity with Jesus as their Lord & Saviour.
It freaked me out but at some point I suddenly thought 'If I'm not willing to accept others & their HP how can I expect for them to accept mine?'.. A light came on for me & something somewhere deep inside me softened. A hate & fear melted & a little more love came shining in. I began to grow an understanding for what JC can & does mean for others & in the long run I began to look at what he might mean for me too. I'm not a raving Christian (yet lol) but I am glad & grateful not to meet this age old principle with the worry & insecurity I had before. I'm not saying that you're having the same feelings as me but I am sharing that the more open minded I am, the more my spirituality grows.
There is nothing to fear in what these icons or emblems (for want of better words) have to offer. I love to see where religious people are right today. It's an exciting experience for me. I learn more & more the similarities & that, no matter what, an essential message of love just keeps on coming forth in all kinds of metaphors. I would even say that today I have a love, respect & appreciation for this story & its meaning. Spirituality is so interesting & I love how my faith & understanding keeps on growing, helping me feel safe & that everything is ok just for today as I keep on doing the suggested things.
Whatever our Higher Power, it is another path up the mountain. I hope you find a peace with this issue soon. There is no harm to be had. You are safe & loved. Godbless, Danielle x
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Progress not perfection.. & Practice makes Progress!
Dear Glenn, thank you for sharing your truth & current feelings on this subject. I know I grew up having some very hostile feelings towards Jesus as a Higher Power & I hated it if people fed it to me from their point of view. I just hated it. I was frightened & angry about it really to be honest & these feelings alienated me from having an open & loving mind. It was my prejudice toward people's part in organised religion that I resented. I hated that it seemed so contradictory. I had allsorts of prejudice & small mindedness about it that ultimately there was alot about it I was missing out on really. I went to a retreat in the first few months of my sobriety & there people had a distinct affinity with Jesus as their Lord & Saviour.
It freaked me out but at some point I suddenly thought 'If I'm not willing to accept others & their HP how can I expect for them to accept mine?'.. A light came on for me & something somewhere deep inside me softened. A hate & fear melted & a little more love came shining in. I began to grow an understanding for what JC can & does mean for others & in the long run I began to look at what he might mean for me too. I'm not a raving Christian (yet lol) but I am glad & grateful not to meet this age old principle with the worry & insecurity I had before. I'm not saying that you're having the same feelings as me but I am sharing that the more open minded I am, the more my spirituality grows.
There is nothing to fear in what these icons or emblems (for want of better words) have to offer. I love to see where religious people are right today. It's an exciting experience for me. I learn more & more the similarities & that, no matter what, an essential message of love just keeps on coming forth in all kinds of metaphors. I would even say that today I have a love, respect & appreciation for this story & its meaning. Spirituality is so interesting & I love how my faith & understanding keeps on growing, helping me feel safe & that everything is ok just for today as I keep on doing the suggested things.
Whatever our Higher Power, it is another path up the mountain. I hope you find a peace with this issue soon. There is no harm to be had. You are safe & loved. Godbless, Danielle x
Hey Glenn, that is what I meant to say!!! Well put Danielle X! Bravo.
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"You're in the right place. That's the door right there. Turn around."
See, now that's just it... to the person who feels that AA is the best "sneak approach to Christianity that's come down the pike" - to me, anything that requires a "sneak approach" is not worthy of standing on its own merits. Seems like bait and switch to me.
Anyway I'm not ready to dump my sponsor just yet, so I read the material with as much open-mindedness as I could muster given the circumstances. Still not a happy camper but still following his direction for now.
-- Edited by FlyingSquirrel on Wednesday 4th of November 2009 12:26:21 AM
Glad you read the stuff. Now maybe talk to your sponsor and ask him why he wanted you to read it.
A good friend in the fellowship is shall we say a new Christian. he is firm about his faith. starts all his shares with God is Good.
I might be a christian (with a deliberate small c) or I might not. I don't know. But i have a higher power and that higher power is of my own understanding.
My friend doesn't ram his doctrine down anyone's throat and I don't with mine. He invited me to his baptism and I went, not because i particularly thought that I believed that this was right, but because I wanted to go and be with him on a special day for him.
What am i saying - don't get hung up on religion, don't get hung up on God, cling to the God of your own understanding - ther is one and it isn't you, i was told, that's as much as I need to believe.
and praying - blimey, i find myself dong that too - I don't know who I am praying to, the prayers are usually the serenity prayer and the lord's prayer as theyr'e the only ones I know by rote - but sometimes, like last night when I got a message about my daughter, who feels so lonely and bereft and can't see the point of living, yeah, I prayed for her, that she should find peace and love and a way to live, repeatedly, I had to do that or I couldn't sleep. Well i slept OK and i hope my daughter did too.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
don't sweat the small stuff. your disease really wants you to get pissed about anything so that you'll leave and continue to drink. watch out for strong reactions to anything, you should be able to have your opinions without all the negative emotion. It's good to be passionate about things, but remember that passion is a positive emotion. when you feel some seriously negative emotions coming on, try and pause to see where it's really coming form. most often, we are making something, somebody, or an issue the object of our disatisfaction, when we are really just not happy. btw, I agree that the Christian overtones and references don't belong in our program and for the the record and I am a Christian (RCC), but some might say that I'm not because I still have a non-denominational HP, if that makes any sense.
I think for many many people it is a "sneak approach" to Christianity because that is the religion they were raised with, the one that didn't make sense to them and then they sorted some stuff out, became more gracious and reconciled their problems with the religion. I personally was never Christian to begin with so there is no urge and I do not see myself heading in that direction. My grandsponsor is devout in christianity and he recently shared about Jesus carrying the cross and how this is a model for how we all have crosses to bear and we can indeed handle life with acceptance, tolerance, and love. I got a lot out of hearing that because I am open minded and I see the strength that those beliefs give my grandsponsor so I can draw from that and just continue my journey towards firming up my own faith. I love religious people that are positive, nonjudgmental, and loving. Aside from people in the program, I have found that those type of people are the closest thing to having the type of serenity that is found in those with long-term sobriety. I believe this and this is my experience even though some of those people seriously believe I choose to be gay and am going to hell for it. They can pray for me in that regard...but I can also pray back for them to become even more enlightened. Besides, the truly spiritual christians I have interacted with never take issue with that to my face. They love me because I am a child of God and that message is more meaningful to them. If a person uses religion to judge or hate...then their message is useless to me. I don't get as angry about it as I used to. Resolved that one a long time ago. Just more food for thought... My spiritual beliefs are closely resembling some of the posts made by Dave Harm... I would suggest reading his last post cuz if spirituality like that comes from 15 years in the program...it's good for me just like if a person chooses to become devout Christian. Returning to being more open minded has come pretty easy to me as the religion I did grow up with was unitarian universalist....I certainly wouldn't push it on anyone else, but it draws from all world religions (including native american ones) and it espouses community, service, justice, love, and tolerance above all else basically. Hence, for me it is a perfect fit once again for me and I find those values so central to AA that the two overlap just right for me. I lost that connection when I started drinking and it is coming back to me now...but this is JUST ME. Other's get to choose their own path to spirituality. Furthermore, since my religion of choice does espouse tolerance and it does draw from many religions...I would be foolish to judge or condemn any one religion.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
) Talk to him about this and lay it out with your HP as well. I understand if he is trying to "save your soul" because he is evangelical, at the same time he is trying to help you through the steps, but he needs to stick with the program. I feel you are correct in thinking this is not right. Do you think it is possible to talk this out with your sponsor? He just may be trying too hard. I think that if he can not seperate his HP from yours, its not going to work, and you will need a new sponsor. Interestingly, I started out like you and now I am probably leaning towards him in the HP department, but that occured with time and no pressure.
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