I appreciate all the feed back from the first post i made, went better than i had really expected it to, but I feel i need to point out something about my self and see what anyone might think..
I noticed alot of people have turned to god to help them through addiction.. well I am a firm believer that there is no higher power in my life other than myself, after all I am the most influential catalyst in my life, so I have no one to rely on when it comes down to it other than my self.. I had quit meth on my own after trying meetings and finding them to not be my style.. NA just didnt seem to want me to share my opinion because of this and i even had one counselor tell me ill never get better if i dont surrender my being unto god, very dissapointing to me.. when i quit meth, i went about a year before i started to really drink to the point where it was destroying me..
so i guess i ask: if i dont believe or want a god in my life, how to i start the steps? where do I go from here? I suppose I would have to get over my addiction by myself, like with the drugs, but sometimes those negative thoughts really get to me.. the worst seems when i know there is nothing to do for the rest of the evening and I have enough to at leas get a beer in my wallet.. feels worse when I know I have the means to get it and it would be annoying or dissapointing to the people around me..
i feel like im babbling, so I guess ill leave it at that.. sorry if i sound cynical in this, im not trying to. just trying to express my thoughts and get some feed back
"Lack of Power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater that yourself which will solve your problems." Big Book pg. 45
This is from the our Big Book, Chapter 4, "We Agnostics". I believe it could be very helpful to you. I believed in a Higher Power when I came into A.A., but that Higher Power has a different meaning for me today and this chapter was my first step into this new understanding. This chapter also talks about the fellowship at that time having over half the original members who felt they were agnostic or atheists.
Check it out and let us know what you think. Thank you for being honest.
I was agnostic and militantly anti-religion when I first came to AA. I'm still not a big fan of organized religion, but that's not a problem in that I've become more tolerant of others' beliefs. I've become spiritual, not religious. I've been living with a woman for six years who is a devout (though nontraditional) Christian. We respect each others' beliefs.
The chapter "We Agnostics" was written for me. I've read it several times and never tire of it.
Consider what a Higher Power needs to be: 1. Something good. 2. Something bigger than yourself. 3. Something you can rely on.
Why not your favorite 12-Step group or AA as a whole? How about all the folks at this site? How about the concept of Love? Recovery itself? The sun? A mountain? An ocean? Nature? The Universe? I have even used the word "GOD"...as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction.
Any of the above meet the requirements of a Higher Power, in my humble opinion.
Prejudice is merely old ideas. Until I let go of my old ideas, I could not stay sober . I was dying in more ways than one.
The program of Alcoholics Anonymous requires that I constantly poke holes in this huge ego of mine . That involves change and plenty of it. Got to be open minded and willing to change in order for any new behavior to start taking place.
Your question .. how do you start the steps when you dont & wont believe in a God ? Hmm, my answer would be that you dont.
But then again, this isnt about me. If you know whats best for you, and arent willing to at least try to rely on a God of your understanding, dont forget that AA is not the only way to stay sober . ( it is the only way Ive found to work for me ). There are other ways to get and stay sober.
Nothing wrong with expressing your thoughts. Seems to me your being honest. Im sure you dont mind if I return the favor
Your question .. how do you start the steps when you dont & wont believe in a God ? Hmm, my answer would be that you dont.
go figure.. hearing shit that that sucks.. im not atheist and im not agnostic, i am my own god and responsible for my own actions, i think im in the wrong place, im not quitting for me, im quitting for someonee else
I think he was meaning do not start the 3d step because it seems like you are now having problems with the 2nd step, "came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore us to sanity.
How it work states "if you want what we ave and are ready to go to any lenghts to get it, "then" you are ready to take certain steps.
If you can beleive that this forum AA/NA meetings the program and steps can do something for you that you can't do for yourself, then that would be a start.
None of us start out as "spiritual giants", we are just alkies and drug addicts. A lot of us us the meetings as a power greater than ourselves at first.
I would be careful giving myself a lot of credit for switching my addiction from meth to alcohol, the rubber meets the road when you get off all mind altering drugs incl. alcohol.
I always thought like yourself, that "I" was the power that would solve my problems and I was my own God. Unfortunately my God was a not very effective Alcoholic/doper (me).
If me playing God would have worked I wouldn't be here, and would have never needed to come to AA, none of us would be on this forum....it's as simple as that.
I hope this helps.
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Rob
"There ain't no Coupe DeVille hiding in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box."
Hello Ragnarokn009 And Welcome to MIP AA does not demand that you belive in any thing only that you be Willing ''
Wen i first got sober i did not believe anything but the bottle ,,and if anybody told i had to beleve i would of headed to the hills , And yes you can start the steps ....The first step says (We admitted we were powless over alcohol-that our lives had become unmanageable)
I think i came to believe in a power grater than me after i did my 6th step ,,,wen i started to clean away the things that were blocking me from that power,,,this is not a Church it is a spiritual program
A lot come here that are Agnostic and after years of sobriety are living happy lives ,,after all the Big Book has a whole chapter on it
If i might make a suggestion give it a try and see what you think after all the 12 steps are suggestions ,,and if your life is not to good try somthing different the things that help me '' Honesty -openminded -willingness .
Russell
-- Edited by BLUESMAN on Wednesday 28th of October 2009 12:54:16 AM
Hey Rag, what keeps me going sometimes is the Third Tradition of AA: "The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking." Sometimes, I wish that they had put the only in all caps. You don't need to believe in anything, let alone God, to be part of AA, and you don't even need to have stopped drinking. ALL you need is a desire to stop drinking. Sounds like you have that. I know that I do.
I struggle with the concept of an HP sometimes -- but I keep going to meetings in spite of that. Today, I am going to do my best to get to a meeting.
And so far, one day at a time, that's what's working for me. In fact, I'd say that it's transforming my life. Day by day, those old feelings of impending absolute doom, that I was all alone on this planet and doomed to misery, chaos, illness and poverty, all those things that sent me directly to the pub, weren't yelling at me like they used to when I was beering and pubbing. They aren't completely removed yet, but I now believe that if I stick with AA, they will be.
As for the Steps, there is the saying in AA "If you fake it, you can make it."
-- Edited by SteveP on Wednesday 28th of October 2009 02:38:09 AM
I would be careful giving myself a lot of credit for switching my addiction from meth to alcohol, the rubber meets the road when you get off all mind altering drugs incl. alcohol.
I always thought like yourself, that "I" was the power that would solve my problems and I was my own God. Unfortunately my God was a not very effective Alcoholic/doper (me).
If me playing God would have worked I wouldn't be here, and would have never needed to come to AA, none of us would be on this forum....it's as simple as that.
I hope this helps.
Exactly. My best thinking got me here. For a long time, I thought that I had all the power, till I accepted that I was powerless of everything in this universe, and most importantly I was powerless over Alcohol. If you don't think that you have a problem with alcohol and you're just doing this for your wife, it's not likely that you're going to be willing to work this program. You don't need God to work this program, that's just looking like an excuse for you to hit the door. What's needed is an honest assessment of what happens to you when you drink and if you have any control over that. This is a one step at time (in order) program. Until you can accept that you are "powerless over alcohol and that your life has become unmanageable" (step one) there no reason to look at any of the other steps. If you think that you can still drink safely and that your life is manageable then you're in the wrong place or you're just here a little early. This is a progressive disease so, if you have it (only you can determine that) it will get worse over time.
I can definitely relate to trying to do it for the wife. I tried that for two years, going on and off to meetings and never got more than 2 months sober. I was miserable, she was miserable. We separated for good and Then I got sober. It was huge distraction for me to take first step "admitted that I was powerless and that my life had become unmanageable" as I had her. I was managing pretty good with her in my life. I always had a job and could pay my bills. What I couldn't do was drive safely without the fear of getting a DUI. When my x-wife (a lot of us have those ) and I split up, I knew that it was only a matter of time before I would get caught drinking and driving. It got "real" for me, real fast and I also saw me going back to using drugs again and that's when I surrendered to this wonderful program and it saved my life.
Cleveland, don't get hung up on God or higher powers right now, just take a look at the first step and ask yourself, repeatedly, if you can drink safely and if your life is manageable. Get to some beginners meetings, and some speakers meetings and listen. Try not to compare out or compare AA to NA. I went to both and personally qualified for both, but seemed to fit in AA. Good luck in your new journey.
-- Edited by StPeteDean on Wednesday 28th of October 2009 03:35:42 AM
At first I was not on good terms with God so I used the group as an HP. They were afterall greater then me they had managed to stay sober and live a better life.
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Tell me and I'll forget. Teach me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn.
Hi Ragnarok. I saw others were giving you such great feedback, I was going to stay out of this one.....until "God" came up. Im having a chuckle over here. Not at your expense, I swear. I just know exactly where you are coming from. All that "God" stuff in AA metings really turned me off. I mean really....was I at church or an AA meeting??!! All that "Higher Power talk, well it drove me crazy. And then something occured to me. All these people in the AA rooms were sober (something I couldnt seem to manage to do on my own) and they were happy (something I hadnt been in a long LONG time). Was it possible *I* didnt know what I was talking about? Was it possible *I* didnt have all the answers? Was it possible that if I took some directon from these people that maybe...just maybe...my life might get better? That my internal hole that I walked around with might be filled? I committed to try it....to give it my ALL (no matter how uncomfortable) for 90 days. A "power greater than myself" became the people in those meetings that seemed to know what they were talking about. They had done what I could not....so that alone made then a power greater than me. And if I listened, with an open mind (making no judgements until after the 90 days) maybe some of it would rub off on me.
That was 2 years ago. Im not a bible thumping, card-carrying Jesus lover. My concept of my higher power changes all the time. And Im sober, mostly happy, often useful and that hole in my chest....that void I talked about? I dont need to fill it with booze, drugs, men, shopping, gambling or any other substance. I fill it with my family, my friends and finding joy in struggling to be the person I was meant to be.
You have value and you have worth. Do you believe that? Keep coming back......you will be amazed before you are halfway through! You are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. You wont regret the past, or wish to shut the door on it. You will comprehend the word serenity and you will know peace. No matter how far down the scale you have gone you will see how your experience can benifit others. Fear of people and of economic in security will leave. And we will suddenly relize that God (Good orderly direction) is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. The above promises will always materialize....if we work for them.
Your question .. how do you start the steps when you dont & wont believe in a God ? Hmm, my answer would be that you dont.
go figure.. hearing shit that that sucks.. im not atheist and im not agnostic, i am my own god and responsible for my own actions, i think im in the wrong place, im not quitting for me, im quitting for someonee else
This is like listening to me in my first few months. I am my own god and responsible for my own actions.
Well I was my own god and I wasn't taking responsibility for my own actions.
once I figured that bit out I could then accept that there was a God and it's not me and that's as much as I needed to know.
My Higher power initially was, in no particular order, Johnny Cash, BB King, Eric Clapton, ozzie osbourne, the sunrise, the wind, religious God, memory, my dead dad, the feelign you get when you ride a motorbike, the booze, my wife, my kids and a whole host of others.
Finally i settled on teh Group Of Drunks, Good Order and Discipline and ultimately a power greater than myself that I knew shag all about, had no chance of understanding but finally accepted that there was one and it wasn't ME.
I thought I came to AA in the first place for me but I really did it to please others. I stayed to please others. I stay now for me.
as far as i'm concerned there is a God. He lives atop a mountain. There are many paths up that mountain. I try different ones until I find the one that takes me there. I don't have to find God, i only have to look.
By the way, researched your sig, ragnarok, refers to the battle that kills off some Gods, leaving those who survive to start again, after the great flood that wipes out all human life, leaving the world to re populated by 2 remaining humans. Norse Mythology. aligns with Adam and Eve, Biblical floods, casting out the prohpets from teh temple, not worshipping false gods etc. Choosing Ragnarok as a sig name says to me that there is a glimmer of belief that there maight be something other than ME in this life.
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It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got. BB
Rag...your views are not incompatible with AA...You just have them labeled that way. Also, it does seem like Dean said, a ready made excuse for why it won't work. Your statement "I am my own God" is not necessarily a bad one...I think it just needs modifying. Those are just words that you are using to represent a statement that actually is compatible with AA. You need to have a program based on action in order for it to work. You need to be the one to do the footwork, to go to meetings, to get phone numbers, to get a sponsor and call him...God isn't going to teleport you to meetings and do all that stuff. What you get out of AA is a direct result of the actions you take. Now, with that said, the higher power is there to help you when you hit a problem that would ordinarily throw you for loops and make you want to drink. And yes, it can be the rooms....it can be the universe...whatever. At first, I did think there was probably a God that kept everything in balance in the world...but that God couldn't possibly care about me (1 out of 6 billion people). It seemed to me that believing that was egotistical and people who talked about God all the time were deluded. Now, only after a while do I realize perhaps if God keeps everything balanced, he/she/it is there to help me keep balanced also. Sometimes now I really do think God personally cares about me... I don't wrestle with logic about it any more. I don't ask why babies die and there are starving kids out there to question my own beliefs in God. I came to believe that there will NEVER be a logical answer for that which is spiritual. All that time I spent waxing about God and trying to do little proofs of logic in my head was wasted. I can't know God or Fully understand God...I can only be open minded and allow God into my life and to try and feel that. It's never going to be something that logically makes sense. Spirituality has nothing to do with logic. I did not understand this for quite some time, but I was open to learn it. So...I don't know if any of this helps you. I think being open to modifying your beliefs is good. For me, I know I am a smart person in many ways, but when it comes to my Alcoholism, I prefer to consider myself dumb. I need to keep learning from others and to keep open minded to solutions to everything because (as stated by others), my best thinking got me to the point of daily drinking, black outs and all the rest.... So, no need to set up obstacles for yourself before you are out of the gate yet. Try and be open minded. For me, I felt so crappy and Alcohol had me so whipped that I was like "Well, if they (AA) turn me into a God freak...that's better than what I am now" so I didn't really care. A belief in God is not a requirement for AA, but I can tell you that you need to combine what would seem to be a strength (your belief that you can make things happen if you do the right things) with an open mind and willingness to recieve help from others and then that is when the magic of AA will start working on you.
Mark
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
Rag, when a higher power is mentioned, some people's immediate reaction is to think "God", or someone that is worshipped in some way. There is nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't have to be that way for you. Like a few people have mentioned, and I agree with, your higher power can be something as simple as the program, something bigger than you that you can depend on to improve your life. Your higher power does not have to be a God of any kind. No one can tell you who or what your higher power should be. Always, always remember, principles before personalities. That being said, and don't take this the wrong way, but if your beliefs, emotions, and approach to life were healthy, you wouldn't be here or NA in the first place. Trying something different, belief wise, might not be the worst idea in the world.
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Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, live for today and make it count. - Mike Ditka
Here is a suggestion: Step 1 I am powerless over that crap especially, when I put it in my system - my life is unmanageable with or without that stuff Step 2 Came to believe or suspect there is a power greater than myself and its not meth Step 3 - Made a decision to do steps 4 - 9 to see what my higher power might have any store for me.
That is a great start - I just had to be willing to believe there was a higher power and it wasn't me. And, change what I believe about that power. The power for years was drugs and drinks and it didn't work. So either I change what I believe about that power or I find one I do believe in.
Love & Hugs Don't give up until the miracle happens.
By the way, researched your sig, ragnarok, refers to the battle that kills off some Gods, leaving those who survive to start again, after the great flood that wipes out all human life, leaving the world to re populated by 2 remaining humans. Norse Mythology. aligns with Adam and Eve, Biblical floods, casting out the prohpets from teh temple, not worshipping false gods etc. Choosing Ragnarok as a sig name says to me that there is a glimmer of belief that there maight be something other than ME in this life.
yeah, Ragnarok is basically the Norse form of the Apocalypse, I do enjoy a good fairy tale now and then, and over analyzing my beliefs from this is ridiculous.. I also enjoy zombie movies, but that doesnt mean im going to believe in zombies just because someone else does...
So um...basically your response to all of us is to find some negativity and argue over minutia. Did you identify or find any value in this thread at all? Did you want to? If all you did was read and wait til someone wrote something you didn't agree with... I do believe Bill was trying to help you in some way...how are snarky responses going to help you at this point? When I came into AA I did not take for granted when people with years of sobriety tried to help me. I wanted to have sobriety so I listened. If I didn't believe what they said or didn't like it...sometimes I just disregarded...but more often than not, I really pondered it, cuz my prior belief system was not all that.
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Keep coming back. It works if you work it. So work it. You're worth it!
